Re: OT: pronouncing "www" (was: Re: ... as a term)

[Ted Ashton]

Thus it was written in the epistle of Austin Hastings,
> "foo.bar" ne "www.foo.bar"
> 
> pronounce("foo.bar") eq pronounce("www.foo.bar")
> 
> As in, "Surf to www.perl.org and read the new ..."
> 
> sounds like
> 
> "Surf to perl dot org and read the new ..."
> 
> =Austin

Just to be absolutely certain, could you say that again, using www.perl.com
as the example?

Thanks,
Ted
-- 
Ted Ashton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), Info Sys, Southern Adventist University
  ==   
Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection
of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house.
-- Poincare, Jules Henri (1854-1912)
  ==   
 Deep thoughts to be found at http://www.southern.edu/~ashted

Re: OT: pronouncing "www" (was: Re: ... as a term)

[Austin Hastings]

"foo.bar" ne "www.foo.bar"

pronounce("foo.bar") eq pronounce("www.foo.bar")

As in, "Surf to www.perl.org and read the new ..."

sounds like

"Surf to perl dot org and read the new ..."

=Austin

--- Tom Christiansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >The "www" in e.g., "www.netscape.com" is pronounced, IMO, in 
> >the same way as other useless, should-be-obvious punctuation.
> 
> >It's silent.
> 
> Seems like something you should take up with RFC 819, or maybe with
> RFC 881, considering that they and their ramifying successors all
> seem to be in flagrant disagreement with you.
> 
> In short, if foo.bar eq www.foo.bar, someone has high-jacked port 53.
> 
> --tom


=
Austin Hastings
Global Services Consultant
Continuus Software Corporation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

__
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Re: OT: pronouncing "www" (was: Re: ... as a term)

[Tom Christiansen]

>The "www" in e.g., "www.netscape.com" is pronounced, IMO, in 
>the same way as other useless, should-be-obvious punctuation.

>It's silent.

Seems like something you should take up with RFC 819, or maybe with
RFC 881, considering that they and their ramifying successors all
seem to be in flagrant disagreement with you.

In short, if foo.bar eq www.foo.bar, someone has high-jacked port 53.

--tom

Re: OT: pronouncing "www" (was: Re: ... as a term)

[Austin Hastings]

The "www" in e.g., "www.netscape.com" is pronounced, IMO, in 
the same way as other useless, should-be-obvious punctuation.

It's silent.



--- Dave Storrs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Bart Lateur wrote:
> > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Larry Wall wrote:
> > >If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say
> "www".
> > >(And make it stick...)
> > 
> > "The world"? This problem only exists in English!
> > 
> > We pronounce it something similar to "way way way".
> 
> 
>   Personally, I've always said it "dub dub dub".
> 
>   Dave
> 


=
Austin Hastings
Global Services Consultant
Continuus Software Corporation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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OT: pronouncing "www" (was: Re: ... as a term)

[Dave Storrs]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Bart Lateur wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Larry Wall wrote:
> >If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
> >(And make it stick...)
> 
> "The world"? This problem only exists in English!
> 
> We pronounce it something similar to "way way way".


Personally, I've always said it "dub dub dub".

Dave

Re: [OT] How to pronounce 'www' (was Re: ... as a term)

[Bart Lateur]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 20:58:02 -0700, Daniel Chetlin wrote:

>I use "dub dub dub", which I picked up at Intel. I find it much easier to
>pronounce quickly than anything that uses an approximant.




I do like "wibbly". Or "wibble". It has a nice mental representation of
what "www" looks like: a few waves.

And  now, back to your regular scheduled program.

-- 
Bart.

[OT] How to pronounce 'www' (was Re: ... as a term)

[Daniel Chetlin]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 11:43:04PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Larry Wall wrote:
If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
(And make it stick...)

[snip of other possibilities]

> the variation i learned somewhere was "wuh wuh wuh".
> 
> it's about the shortest vowel sound you can use.

This is getting way off topic, and I apologize in advance.

I use "dub dub dub", which I picked up at Intel. I find it much easier to
pronounce quickly than anything that uses an approximant.

-dlc

Re: ... as a term

[Uri Guttman]

> "BCW" == Bryan C Warnock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  BCW> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Bart Lateur wrote:
  >> On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Larry Wall wrote:
  >> 
  >> >If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
  >> >(And make it stick...)
  >> 
  >> "The world"? This problem only exists in English!
  >> 
  >> We pronounce it something similar to "way way way".

  BCW> I, personally, prefer the Stoogian "Whoop whoop whoop!"


the variation i learned somewhere was "wuh wuh wuh".

it's about the shortest vowel sound you can use.

uri

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Re: ... as a term

[Bryan C . Warnock]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Bart Lateur wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Larry Wall wrote:
> 
> >If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
> >(And make it stick...)
> 
> "The world"? This problem only exists in English!
> 
> We pronounce it something similar to "way way way".

I, personally, prefer the Stoogian "Whoop whoop whoop!"

Although it's hard to stop at three.

-- 
Bryan C. Warnock
([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: ... as a term

[Bart Lateur]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Larry Wall wrote:

>If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
>(And make it stick...)

"The world"? This problem only exists in English!

We pronounce it something similar to "way way way".

-- 
Bart.

Re: ... as a term

[Nathan Wiger]

> If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
> (And make it stick...)

The funniest thing I've ever read is that Tim Berners-Lee's wife
supposedly criticized the term "www" because "world wide web" was
shorter to say than "www" (3 syllables vs. 9).

-Nate

Re: ... as a term

[Damian Conway]

   > > I think this is fraught with peril. I'd have expected:
   > > 
   > >  print (1, 2, 3, ...) or die;
   > > 
   > > to print
   > > 
   > >  12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728etc
   > 
   > No, if that's what you wanted, you'd get it with
   > 
   >print( 1, 2, 3 .. )   # RFC 24

Sure, but I said "expected", not "wanted".

I was pointing out that the distinction between the two syntaxes is too
subtle, especially since, in English, we write infinite lists with three
dots, not two.

Damian

Re: ... as a term

[John Porter]

Larry Wall wrote:
> John Porter writes:
> : Could you make it "evaporate" and compile time, just like the (proposed) qc()?
> 
> Hard to make it evaporate at compile time and still give a warning at
> run time.  :-)

Eh, eh...  Curdle it into the appropriate warn() call!

-- 
John Porter

Re: ... as a term

[Larry Wall]

John Porter writes:
: Could you make it "evaporate" and compile time, just like the (proposed) qc()?

Hard to make it evaporate at compile time and still give a warning at
run time.  :-)

Larry

Re: ... as a term

[John Porter]

Larry Wall wrote:
> 
> I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
> to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
> syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
> prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
> such a stub.

Has anyone done an RFC on this yet?  If not, I'll volunteer.

-- 
John Porter

Re: ... as a term

[John Porter]

Piers Cawley wrote:
> 
> You forgot:
>   print (1, 11, 21, 1211, ...)


print( 'M', 'MI', 'MIU', ... )

ALso, Larry, how about making the various common emoticons meaningful?

please do come from 10;  :-)

I.e. "belay that command".

-- 
John Porter

We're building the house of the future together.

Re: ... as a term

[John Porter]

Damian Conway wrote:
> 
> I think this is fraught with peril. I'd have expected:
> 
>  print (1, 2, 3, ...) or die;
> 
> to print
> 
>   12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728etc

No, if that's what you wanted, you'd get it with

print( 1, 2, 3 .. )   # RFC 24


-- 
John Porter

We're building the house of the future together.

Re: ... as a term

[John Porter]

Larry Wall wrote:
> 
> Either that, or it's a funny unary operator that can take 0 or 1 argument.
> 
> But I'd be happy with just ... as a statement.  Dwimming the unary
> operator may not be worth it.  Especially since it might be confused
> with the binary operator.  

Could you make it "evaporate" and compile time, just like the (proposed) qc()?

And if it is an operator, it should commute its context.  (Hopefully this would
"just happen" if the ... evaporates.)

-- 
John Porter

We're building the house of the future together.

Re: ... as a term

[Jarkko Hietaniemi]

On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 09:49:12AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> Damian Conway wrote:
> > 
> > Easy. I'll just add a C operator to Q::S. It would take no
> > arguments and return a (lazy?) list of every possible Perl subroutine.
> > 
> > PS: Can you tell whether I'm joking?
> 
> I think you're both joking AND not joking, at the same time.

s/at the same/in constant/; # HTH

-- 
$jhi++; # http://www.iki.fi/jhi/
# There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'.
# It is 'dead'. -- Jack Cohen

Re: ... as a term

[John Porter]

Damian Conway wrote:
> 
> Easy. I'll just add a C operator to Q::S. It would take no
> arguments and return a (lazy?) list of every possible Perl subroutine.
> 
> PS: Can you tell whether I'm joking?

I think you're both joking AND not joking, at the same time.

-- 
John Porter

We're building the house of the future together.

Re: ... as a term

[Karl Glazebrook]

Numerical python uses "..." in the same sense for axis
lists in multi-dim arrays. (Improved syntax for multidim
arrays is one wishlist item from PDL for the perl core.
See RFC117)

NumPy allows you to say:

   a[..., :];

where "..." means "however many", - so this is a slice along
the last dimension.

you can also say:

   a[10:20,...,10:30,30]

etc.

Karl

Larry Wall wrote:
>> If you're into dwimmery, you could make all of these work, too:
> 
> print (1, 2, 4, ...)
> print (1, 4, 9, 16, 25, ...)
> print (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, ...)
> print ('a', 'b', 'c', ...)
> print (3, 1, 4, 1, 5, 9, 6, 2, 5, ...)
> 
> : BTW, I propose the this new operator be pronounced "yadda yadda yadda". :-)
> 
> If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
> (And make it stick...)
> 
> Larry

Re: ... as a term

[Piers Cawley]

Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> If you're into dwimmery, you could make all of these work, too:
> 
> print (1, 2, 4, ...)
> print (1, 4, 9, 16, 25, ...)
> print (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, ...)
> print ('a', 'b', 'c', ...)
> print (3, 1, 4, 1, 5, 9, 6, 2, 5, ...)

You forgot:

  print (1, 11, 21, 1211, ...)

Re: ... as a term

[skud]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 01:01:20PM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>Larry Wall writes:
>> I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
>> to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
>> syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
>> prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
>> such a stub.
>
>This is the coolest suggestion made so far for perl6.  I love it.
>
>Runtime behaviour of '...' is to warn "unimplemented behaviour".  With
>use strict 'development', it dies "unimplemented behaviour" at
>compile-time.

Hear hear!

Great idea.  Who'll RFC it?  Or shall I?

K.

-- 
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Open Source development, consulting and solutions
Level 10, 500 Collins St, Melbourne VIC 3000
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Re: ... as a term

[Damian Conway]

   > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   > : We already have plenty of statements with implied semicolons:
   > : 
   > :  print "foo";
   > :  for @list {}
   > :  print "bar";
   > 
   > Yes, we do, and I'm trying to figure out how to write a prototype for
   > one of those.  :-) / 2

Under RFC 128 and the forthcoming multimethods RFC:

sub for (\$iterator, @list, &block) : multi;
sub for (@list, &block) : multi;

I.e. collectively.


   > If you're into dwimmery, you could make all of these work, too:
   > 
   > print (1, 2, 4, ...)
   > print (1, 4, 9, 16, 25, ...)
   > print (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, ...)
   > print ('a', 'b', 'c', ...)
   > print (3, 1, 4, 1, 5, 9, 6, 2, 5, ...)

You're an evil, evil man, Larry Wall.
You realize someone's probably revising the lazy lists RFC even as we type!

   
   > : BTW, I propose the this new operator be pronounced "yadda yadda yadda".
   > 
   > If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
   > (And make it stick...)

I thought your US political satirists had solved this one.
Isn't it now pronounced "Dubya, Dubya, Dubya"?


Damian

Re: ... as a term

[Larry Wall]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
: We already have plenty of statements with implied semicolons:
: 
:   print "foo";
:   for @list {}
:   print "bar";

Yes, we do, and I'm trying to figure out how to write a prototype for
one of those.  :-) / 2

: I'd have expected:
: 
:  print (1, 2, 3, ...) or die;
: 
: to print
: 
:   12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728etc

If you're into dwimmery, you could make all of these work, too:

print (1, 2, 4, ...)
print (1, 4, 9, 16, 25, ...)
print (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, ...)
print ('a', 'b', 'c', ...)
print (3, 1, 4, 1, 5, 9, 6, 2, 5, ...)

: BTW, I propose the this new operator be pronounced "yadda yadda yadda". :-)

If you want to save the world, come up with a better way to say "www".
(And make it stick...)

Larry

Re: ... as a term

[Damian Conway]

   > The interesting thing about ... is that you have to be able to
   > deal with it a statement with an implied semicolon:
   > 
   > print "foo";
   > ...
   > print "bar";

We already have plenty of statements with implied semicolons:

print "foo";
for @list {}
print "bar";

   > Either that, or it's a funny unary operator that can take 0 or 1 argument.
   > 
   > That might let you parse these too:
   > 
   > print (1, 2, 3, ...) or die;

I think this is fraught with peril. I'd have expected:

 print (1, 2, 3, ...) or die;

to print

12345678910111213141516171819202122232425262728etc

rather than:

123Executed stubbed code at demo.pl, line 123


BTW, I propose the this new operator be pronounced "yadda yadda yadda". :-)

Damian

Re: ... as a term

[Jonathan Scott Duff]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 05:49:39PM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> : I take it the existing C<...> operator would be unaffected?
> 
> Essentially.  The lexer is (and will continue to be) quite aware of the
> difference between terms and operators.

Oops, just read this.  Ignore my previoius email.

-Scott
-- 
Jonathan Scott Duff
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ... as a term

[Jonathan Scott Duff]

On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 09:09:01AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
> Randal L. Schwartz writes:
> : if ($a == $b) { ... } # should this be string or number comparison?
> 
> Actually, it's a syntax error, because of the ... there.  :-)
> 
> But that reminds me of something I wanted a few months ago.
> 
> I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
> to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
> syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
> prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
> such a stub.

Just to clarify, you're proposing that ellipsis do this in void
context only, right?  I kind of like the existing ... operator just
the way it is (unless it has changed behind my back).

-Scott
-- 
Jonathan Scott Duff
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: ... as a term

[Larry Wall]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
: I take it the existing C<...> operator would be unaffected?

Essentially.  The lexer is (and will continue to be) quite aware of the
difference between terms and operators.

The interesting thing about ... is that you have to be able to
deal with it a statement with an implied semicolon:

print "foo";
...
print "bar";

Either that, or it's a funny unary operator that can take 0 or 1 argument.

That might let you parse these too:

print (1, 2, 3, ...) or die;

or this:

print 1, 2, 3, ... 4, 5, 6;

The problem with treating it as a low-precedence unary operator is that
it would appear to run *after* the following statement in our first
example above.  And I think it's more important that ... a run-time
warning than a compile-time warning.

Another option is to treat ... as a statement where a statement is
expected, as a unary/zero-ary operator where a term is expected.  (And
as the binary ... operator where an operator is expected, as it is
now.  On the other hand, the scalar range (flipflop) operator is so
seldom used now that we might steal its notation for range objects even
in scalar context, and provide the flipflop operator with a little less
syntactic sugar.)

But I'd be happy with just ... as a statement.  Dwimming the unary
operator may not be worth it.  Especially since it might be confused
with the binary operator.  Compare the unary operator in

print 1, 2, 3, ... 4, 5, 6;

with the binary operator in:

print 1, 2, 3 ... 4, 5, 6;

Larry

Re: ... as a term

[Damian Conway]

   > Larry Wall writes:
   > > I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
   > > to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
   > > syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
   > > prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
   > > such a stub.
   > 
   > This is the coolest suggestion made so far for perl6.  I love it.

And it's backwards compatible with a huge volume of "handwaving" code ;-)


   > Runtime behaviour of '...' is to warn "unimplemented behaviour".  With
   > use strict 'development', it dies "unimplemented behaviour" at
   > compile-time.

I take it the existing C<...> operator would be unaffected?

Damian

Re: ... as a term

[Damian Conway]

   > I've always wished it was the famous "do what I mean" operator:
   > 
   > if ($a eq "input") {
   >   ... # let perl figure out what to do here
   > } else {
   >   print "I need more input!\n";
   > }
   > 
   > That'd make "rapid application development" truly possible.
   > Maybe we can code it up with "Quantum::Superpositions::any"?

Easy. I'll just add a C operator to Q::S. It would take no
arguments and return a (lazy?) list of every possible Perl subroutine.

use Quantum::Superpositions '@thing';

if ($a eq "input") {
  (any thing)->(@_);
}
else {
  print "I need more input!\n";
}


Damian

PS: Can you tell whether I'm joking?

Re: ... as a term

[Nathan Torkington]

Larry Wall writes:
> I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
> to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
> syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
> prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
> such a stub.

This is the coolest suggestion made so far for perl6.  I love it.

Runtime behaviour of '...' is to warn "unimplemented behaviour".  With
use strict 'development', it dies "unimplemented behaviour" at
compile-time.

Nat

Re: ... as a term

[Larry Wall]

Ed Mills writes:
: But don't {} or {1} sort of do the same thing?

Well, { warn "Encountered stub"; (); } would be more like it.  But the
biggest problem with {} or {1} is that they don't resemble an ellipsis.

Larry

RE: ... as a term

[Brust, Corwin]

-Original Message-
From: Ed Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>
>Excellent idea- anything to get to production faster!
>
>But don't {} or {1} sort of do the same thing?

I think the point here is readability, not unique functionality.

There more then one way to do it :)

-Corwin

Re: ... as a term

[Ed Mills]

Excellent idea- anything to get to production faster!

But don't {} or {1} sort of do the same thing?




>From: Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: ... as a term
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:09:01 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Randal L. Schwartz writes:
>: if ($a == $b) { ... } # should this be string or number 
>comparison?
>
>Actually, it's a syntax error, because of the ... there.  :-)
>
>But that reminds me of something I wanted a few months ago.
>
>I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
>to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
>syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
>prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
>such a stub.
>
>Larry


Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: ... as a term

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Larry" == Larry Wall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Larry> Randal L. Schwartz writes:
Larry> : if ($a == $b) { ... } # should this be string or number comparison?

Larry> Actually, it's a syntax error, because of the ... there.  :-)

Larry> But that reminds me of something I wanted a few months ago.

Larry> I'd entertain a proposal that ... be made a valid term that happens
Larry> to do nothing, so that you can run your examples through perl -c for
Larry> syntax checks.  Or better, make it an official "stub" for rapid
Larry> prototyping, with some way of getting a warning whenever you execute
Larry> such a stub.

I've always wished it was the famous "do what I mean" operator:

if ($a eq "input") {
  ... # let perl figure out what to do here
} else {
  print "I need more input!\n";
}

That'd make "rapid application development" truly possible.

perl -e '...' # all programs here

Maybe we can code it up with "Quantum::Superpositions::any"?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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