Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
(for those that haven't seen this yet) On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 01:05:52AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote: I think the chapter on the Perl design philosophy is definitely worth the reading of. I just wish the book had wider margins so I can make Alan Burlison has the scoop on an entire book on the design philosophy: http://bleaklow.com/blog/archive/18.html (If you're wondering who he is, he did a lot of unsung work in cleaning up many many memory leaks in 5.6. He's also to thank for the search.cpan.org hardware: http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/25/2244227 ) Nicholas Clark
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
Jonathan Scott Duff wrote: On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 03:00:54PM +0100, Alberto Manuel Brand?o Sim?es wrote: On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 14:49, Simon Cozens wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alberto Manuel Brandão simões) writes: The question is simple, and Dan can have the same problem (or him or Larry). I am thinking on a Perl 6 book in portuguese (maybe only a tutorial... but who knows). But that means I must write something which will work :-) Just a hint: don't try writing it and revising it as the language changes. I wrote a Perl 6 chapter for a book in December and it is now almost unusable due to the pace of change. Yes. That's why I'm asking :-) I can start looking to apocalypses and exegesis to have an idea of the structure and content, but not really write them. I would need a running prototype, too. And that's more difficult to find :) Well, you can always find prototypical pieces in perl 5. For instance, Perl6::Classes, Perl6::Currying, Perl6::Rules, etc. (note, you may have to pull that last one out of Damian's head :- There's also P6C (parrot/languages/perl6), but use with caution, as its pretty kooky. - Joe
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
Iain Truskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões [15 Aug 2003 00:36]: On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 15:19, Iain Truskett wrote: [...] Much like Perl 6 Essentials then? I must say that its chapter 4 is the clearest look at the perl 6 syntax (as it was at the time of writing) that I've seen yet. Yeah. I would like to read it. But as I think syntax will change, I'm not thinking on buying it.. ;-/ Safari. http://safari.oreilly.com/0596004990 Of course, you need a Safari subscription, but they quite useful things. I imagine purchasing it physical copies would be more common on p6-internals as over half the book is Parrot and related goodness. I think the chapter on the Perl design philosophy is definitely worth the reading of. I just wish the book had wider margins so I can make notes as things change. (Dan's already made, and signed a correction on page 93 for me :)
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
The question is simple, and Dan can have the same problem (or him or Larry). I am thinking on a Perl 6 book in portuguese (maybe only a tutorial... but who knows). But that means I must write something which will work :-) Of course to write it will take many time, which can give Larry time to write at least one more Apocalypse :) Cheers, Alberto On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 13:52, Dan Sugalski wrote: On 14 Aug 2003, Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões wrote: Hi Apocalypses and Exegesis are not an 'official' specification for Perl6, I mean, they are subject to change. Is there any idea when will we have a freeze on the syntax and features for perl6? Sometime after perl 5's syntax and features freeze, I expect. When *that* happens is anyone's guess. :) More seriously, things will get less mutable as the implementation progresses, and I expect as we come up to a beta release things will be pretty stable, barring changes because things are unimplementable or problematic. That should happen over the next 6-12 months, time willing. Dan
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On 14 Aug 2003, Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões wrote: Hi Apocalypses and Exegesis are not an 'official' specification for Perl6, I mean, they are subject to change. Is there any idea when will we have a freeze on the syntax and features for perl6? Sometime after perl 5's syntax and features freeze, I expect. When *that* happens is anyone's guess. :) More seriously, things will get less mutable as the implementation progresses, and I expect as we come up to a beta release things will be pretty stable, barring changes because things are unimplementable or problematic. That should happen over the next 6-12 months, time willing. Dan
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On Thursday, August 14, 2003, at 07:00 AM, Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões wrote: On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 14:49, Simon Cozens wrote: Just a hint: don't try writing it and revising it as the language changes. I wrote a Perl 6 chapter for a book in December and it is now almost unusable due to the pace of change. Yes. That's why I'm asking :-) I can start looking to apocalypses and exegesis to have an idea of the structure and content, but not really write them. I would need a running prototype, too. And that's more difficult to find :) I add a hearty Amen to Simon's advice. In my own opinion -- which is worth approximately what you paid for it :-) -- things are probably pretty slushy until A12/E12 Objects comes out. AFAIK, that's due to be the next official A/E. I expect that _after_ that one, things will solidify rather rapidly; but be wary of doing too much before that, IMHO. The A12/E12 problem is that the core concepts and syntax related to objects and types have wide repercussions on the syntax of everything else -- control structures, subroutines, operators, etc. etc. etc. Since *everything* can be described as being an operation upon a set of objects/types (and, after all, even csubs/subs/ops are themselves objects, in the larger sense) until those object/type concepts are nailed down *quite* firmly, I would be a little wary of counting on the stability of anything else. We've seen several examples already of things changing -- for the better! -- long after the AEs for them have come out. I confidently prophesize at least one more big, scary round of that. My personal advice is to wait until E12 comes out and is polished, and then go whole-hog. I wouldn't expect any major changes to happen after that, because the rest of the AEs are less far-flung in scope. MikeL
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
* Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões [15 Aug 2003 00:36]: On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 15:19, Iain Truskett wrote: [...] Much like Perl 6 Essentials then? I must say that its chapter 4 is the clearest look at the perl 6 syntax (as it was at the time of writing) that I've seen yet. Yeah. I would like to read it. But as I think syntax will change, I'm not thinking on buying it.. ;-/ Safari. http://safari.oreilly.com/0596004990 Of course, you need a Safari subscription, but they quite useful things. I imagine purchasing it physical copies would be more common on p6-internals as over half the book is Parrot and related goodness. cheers, -- Iain.
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 03:00:54PM +0100, Alberto Manuel Brand?o Sim?es wrote: On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 14:49, Simon Cozens wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alberto Manuel Brandão simões) writes: The question is simple, and Dan can have the same problem (or him or Larry). I am thinking on a Perl 6 book in portuguese (maybe only a tutorial... but who knows). But that means I must write something which will work :-) Just a hint: don't try writing it and revising it as the language changes. I wrote a Perl 6 chapter for a book in December and it is now almost unusable due to the pace of change. Yes. That's why I'm asking :-) I can start looking to apocalypses and exegesis to have an idea of the structure and content, but not really write them. I would need a running prototype, too. And that's more difficult to find :) Well, you can always find prototypical pieces in perl 5. For instance, Perl6::Classes, Perl6::Currying, Perl6::Rules, etc. (note, you may have to pull that last one out of Damian's head :-) But it looks to me like most of the major syntactic elements are fairly stable. So you should be able to pull stuff out of the Apocalypses and Exegeses and at least be within a few degrees of accuracy. Besides you could always provide online updates to your book as the language changes. The first (dead tree) edition would be the rough cut, and later editions would be closer to reality as the language stablizes. -Scott -- Jonathan Scott Duff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 14:49, Simon Cozens wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alberto Manuel Brandão simões) writes: The question is simple, and Dan can have the same problem (or him or Larry). I am thinking on a Perl 6 book in portuguese (maybe only a tutorial... but who knows). But that means I must write something which will work :-) Just a hint: don't try writing it and revising it as the language changes. I wrote a Perl 6 chapter for a book in December and it is now almost unusable due to the pace of change. Yes. That's why I'm asking :-) I can start looking to apocalypses and exegesis to have an idea of the structure and content, but not really write them. I would need a running prototype, too. And that's more difficult to find :)
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 12:19:28AM +1000, Iain Truskett wrote: * Jonathan Scott Duff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [15 Aug 2003 00:16]: [...] Besides you could always provide online updates to your book as the language changes. The first (dead tree) edition would be the rough cut, and later editions would be closer to reality as the language stablizes. Much like Perl 6 Essentials then? Well, yeah. But in portugese. Maybe he should just try to translate that book instead of writing his own. Or create a exegesis-style tutorial that somehow compliments P6E (having not read the book myself, I don't know if this would be appropriate/possible) I must say that its chapter 4 is the clearest look at the perl 6 syntax (as it was at the time of writing) that I've seen yet. /me makes *another* mental note to get the book. -Scott -- Jonathan Scott Duff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
Based on current experience, I'd say about three years after the start of development for perl7. =Austin --- Alberto Manuel Brandão_Simões [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Apocalypses and Exegesis are not an 'official' specification for Perl6, I mean, they are subject to change. Is there any idea when will we have a freeze on the syntax and features for perl6? Thanks, Alberto
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On Thu, 2003-08-14 at 15:19, Iain Truskett wrote: * Jonathan Scott Duff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [15 Aug 2003 00:16]: [...] Besides you could always provide online updates to your book as the language changes. The first (dead tree) edition would be the rough cut, and later editions would be closer to reality as the language stablizes. Much like Perl 6 Essentials then? I must say that its chapter 4 is the clearest look at the perl 6 syntax (as it was at the time of writing) that I've seen yet. Yeah. I would like to read it. But as I think syntax will change, I'm not thinking on buying it.. ;-/ cheers,
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
* Jonathan Scott Duff ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [15 Aug 2003 00:16]: [...] Besides you could always provide online updates to your book as the language changes. The first (dead tree) edition would be the rough cut, and later editions would be closer to reality as the language stablizes. Much like Perl 6 Essentials then? I must say that its chapter 4 is the clearest look at the perl 6 syntax (as it was at the time of writing) that I've seen yet. cheers, -- Iain.
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
Apocalypses and Exegesis are not an 'official' specification for Perl6, I mean, they are subject to change. Is there any idea when will we have a freeze on the syntax and features for perl6? Since the A/E gig is where the design team is getting a handle on what it is they want to be doing and how (and then trying to explain it to the rest of us using small words :), I think they won't freeze anything until they're much further along on the series OTOH, I think they aren't planning to make sweeping changes to whats there already and most of it can be considered 'slushy', which may not be as good as frozen, but it's closer :o That's my take on it, of course; I could be entirely wrong, too --attriel
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alberto Manuel Brandão simões) writes: The question is simple, and Dan can have the same problem (or him or Larry). I am thinking on a Perl 6 book in portuguese (maybe only a tutorial... but who knows). But that means I must write something which will work :-) Just a hint: don't try writing it and revising it as the language changes. I wrote a Perl 6 chapter for a book in December and it is now almost unusable due to the pace of change. -- Dames lie about anything - just for practice. -Raymond Chandler
Re: Apocalypses and Exegesis...
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 12:52:42PM +0100, Alberto Manuel Brandão Simões wrote: Apocalypses and Exegesis are not an 'official' specification for Perl6, I mean, they are subject to change. Is there any idea when will we have a freeze on the syntax and features for perl6? Its scheduled to occur shortly following Hell. ;) -- Michael G Schwern[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/ WOOHOO! I'm going to Disneyland! http://www.goats.com/archive/980805.html
