Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On Sunday 30 of October 2005 20:17, Bruce Momjian wrote: Nikolay Samokhvalov wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? It probably has little impact on us. It is useful perhaps for developer servers at existing Oracle sites. IMHO it is not against PostgreSQL/other OS DBs. It can be, but rather as a side effect. The main competitor is free Sybase ASE (also Express Edition :-)). http://www.sybase.com/linuxpromo Check the limitations. Sounds familiar? Sybase ASE XE is a MSSQL competitor for low buget projects, ASE is still very similar to Microsoft's SQL Server. Sybase also declares deep cooperation with Novell (SuSE distribution). I don't think Oracle does not bother with this. Regards, Mariusz Czułada ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On 11/1/05, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Wieck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 10/31/2005 1:14 PM, Chris Browne wrote: The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... It's not a joke. It fits exactly the small web application needs. Who will want to pay for a commercial MySQL license when they can run Oracle for free? People who can't figure out how to configure Postgres are not likely to get far with Oracle ;-). Unless Oracle has made some *huge* strides in ease of installation/administration with 10g, I see this making practically no dent in MySQL. Or PG for that matter. All they're really likely to accomplish is to cannibalize some of their own low-end sales. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly Well to be fair, Oracle 10g Express is easy to install and admin. Basically you don't have to do any admin work and installing is as hard as clicking next 3 or 4 times. To me the only really nice thing Oracle has at this time is called HTML DB that provides a semi easy development tool that hooks into Oracle very easily. No need to write glue code such as connections and state as the dev tool provides all this. With that being said those of us who know better will not take that over Postgresql, but it will buy Oracle more market share that is for sure. Bob ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On Monday 31 October 2005 13:12, Bill Bartlett wrote:
However, the other place where both these two (Oracle Express and SQL
Server Express) may hurt is not by taking current users away from
PostgreSQL but rather by taking away future users, and therefore a
certain amount of future growth.
I know of several places where postgresql got in the door because setting up
oracle servers for development was just too painful, so the developers set up
postgresql servers instead with the intent of porting it to oracle for
production use.
In fact at one of my previous employers, we took it to the next level when it
came time to luanch our product and the oracle dba group said the turn
around time to port the schema to oracle would be three weeks. At that point
I explained we could be running it in production on postgresql within a week
and the switch was made. That's how the snowball effect starts, and you can
bet oracle is trying to nip these things in the bud.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On 11/1/05, Andrew Rawnsley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They actually did make _some_ strides. The installer actually works consistently (knock on veneer-covered-pressboard), which is something I haven't seen since the pre-8i text-mode installs... Doesn't quite compare to the 5 minute untar/config/build/install/create database cycle we're used to with PG however. Or the ten second rpm -i... I've only ever installed Oracle once, but I was offended by the REQUIREMENT of a gui to install the thing. I managed to just install the X client and connect from another machine, but still, that seems whack to me. Plus I had to run a command line installer for the particular Linux flavor that prepared the system for me to install Oracle. Yikes. I don't see a single MySQL fanboi going through that if their biggest beef about PostgreSQL (besides how PAINFULLY slow it is ;^) is how horribly difficult it is to install and configure. Having said all that, I will probably dabble in it since it fattens up the resume... ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Yes, sqlplus looks especially bad once you're used to banging around in psql. Although, I recently discovered rlwrap (a generic readline wrapper) which makes sqlplus almost tolerable. It's the best thing to happen to sqlplus since... well, since quit I suppose. I just wish pgsql had something similar to sqlplus's built in formatting tools for output. Being able to set titles, row lengths, and breaks made sqlplus a very nice reporting tool. A rather large majority of reports at my old job consisted of sqlplus commands to set the format output, and a sql statement redirected to our line printer. I haven't used Oracle since the mid 90s so I don't have a working example but a description of some of the commands can be found here http://www.siue.edu/~dbock/cmis564/otext3.htm Take Care, James ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On Wed, Nov 02, 2005 at 01:25:31PM -0600, James Thompson wrote: Yes, sqlplus looks especially bad once you're used to banging around in psql. Although, I recently discovered rlwrap (a generic readline wrapper) which makes sqlplus almost tolerable. It's the best thing to happen to sqlplus since... well, since quit I suppose. I just wish pgsql had something similar to sqlplus's built in formatting tools for output. Being able to set titles, row lengths, and breaks made sqlplus a very nice reporting tool. A rather large majority of reports at my old job consisted of sqlplus commands to set the format output, and a sql statement redirected to our line printer. I haven't used Oracle since the mid 90s so I don't have a working example but a description of some of the commands can be found here http://www.siue.edu/~dbock/cmis564/otext3.htm Given the choice, I'd *MUCH* rather have a good, easy-to-use CLI than a reporting tool. I'm not a GUI person, so I always hate working with Oracle and MSSQL in that regard. Of course db2's CLI is just horrid, but luckily it's easy to just substitute your shell for it's editing features, ie: db2 'select * from table' db2 'update ...' Believe it or not it very quickly becomes second nature to wrap everything in db2 '', so it's not nearly as bad as you'd think. In any case, how much user demand is there for a reporting tool for PostgreSQL? Either a seperate tool or better functionality in psql. My guess is that this isn't something that interests most of the developers, so the only way it's going to happen is if a lot of users speak up and ask for it. Of course speaking up with patches is far better. -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pervasive Software http://pervasive.comwork: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
CLI Reporting Tool Was: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
I haven't used Oracle since the mid 90s so I don't have a working example but a description of some of the commands can be found here http://www.siue.edu/~dbock/cmis564/otext3.htm Given the choice, I'd *MUCH* rather have a good, easy-to-use CLI than a reporting tool. I'm not a GUI person, so I always hate working with Oracle and MSSQL in that regard. Exactly. We had paid for support for SQL*Reports at that job but never used it. We either used those sqlplus commands listed in the above URL or a Fortran(don't ask) program. In any case, how much user demand is there for a reporting tool for PostgreSQL? Either a seperate tool or better functionality in psql. I'd like to see it in psql myself. Of course speaking up with patches is far better. I simply don't have the time to throw at it :( However now that I think about it I believe one of the coders in our project (www.gnuenterprise.org) started writing a tool a few years back based upon our db interfaces to provide a cross db sqlplus like CLI. I'll ask him how far he got into it. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On 10/31/2005 1:14 PM, Chris Browne wrote: The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... It's not a joke. It fits exactly the small web application needs. Who will want to pay for a commercial MySQL license when they can run Oracle for free? Remember, the open source aspect can fix it yourself isn't really existent in the MySQL world, so those customers aren't really looking for open source, they are looking for cheap or free. With the control over InnoDB, Oracle has an influence on what XE is competing against. Both offers compete with MS SQL Express as well, so they hit a lot of small database competition with one stone. Jan -- #==# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #== [EMAIL PROTECTED] # ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Jan Wieck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 10/31/2005 1:14 PM, Chris Browne wrote: The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... It's not a joke. It fits exactly the small web application needs. Who will want to pay for a commercial MySQL license when they can run Oracle for free? People who can't figure out how to configure Postgres are not likely to get far with Oracle ;-). Unless Oracle has made some *huge* strides in ease of installation/administration with 10g, I see this making practically no dent in MySQL. Or PG for that matter. All they're really likely to accomplish is to cannibalize some of their own low-end sales. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Still, at least Oracle 10g provides for an easy GUI from which to configure and perform imports and exports of data. Some of use have need for a database that can dump all data and accept another series of new data...only to be dropped again in a few days. The GUI tools make this MUCH easier - especially when dealing with many different types of tables and data formats. The GUI file import/export is one feature I would love to see next to enhance pgAdmin III! -Original Message- People who can't figure out how to configure Postgres are not likely to get far with Oracle ;-). Unless Oracle has made some *huge* strides in ease of installation/administration with 10g, I see this making practically no dent in MySQL. Or PG for that matter. All they're really likely to accomplish is to cannibalize some of their own low-end sales. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Given both the naming of Oracle 10g Express and the timing of Oracle's announcement, I think Oracle Express is more of a reaction to pressure by Microsoft's SQL Server 2005 Express, due to be released Nov 7 but actually shipped to developers this past Thursday. I've been a DBA for _many_ years on Sybase, Oracle, SQL Server and PostgreSQL. From my perspective, Oracle requires a significant amount of DBA expertise in order to use it, so although I do see Oracle Express as a certain amount of threat to PostgreSQL, I don't think it's too significant. I think it's probably more designed to keep current Oracle users from migrating to SQL Server or possibly to PostgreSQL. MS SQL Server, on the other hand, while benefiting from a good DBA (like all RDBMS's do), requires virtually no DBA expertise. (I'd never consider using Oracle in any sort of embedded, bundled, DBA-less environment, but I'd have no problem using either PostgreSQL or MS SQL Server in those cases.) So I do see SQL Server Express as more of a threat to PostgreSQL, at least on the Windows platform. I actually see both Oracle Express and SQL Server Express as being more of a threat to MySQL rather than to PostgreSQL. There are still MANY many MS Access databases out there supporting departmental applications or smaller web sites; I think many of these sites traditionally move to MySQL. Now they may be more likely to move to either Oracle Express or SQL Server Express, especially in a corporate environment. However, the other place where both these two (Oracle Express and SQL Server Express) may hurt is not by taking current users away from PostgreSQL but rather by taking away future users, and therefore a certain amount of future growth. Again, in a corporate environment, in many cases it still takes a somewhat sizeable amount of persuasion to convince management to go with any free solution, whereas going with anything commercial is more just a matter of justifying the budget numbers. Thus it's _much_ less risky to recommend using Oracle Express or SQL Server Express rather than PostgreSQL or MySQL. It's the old you never get fired for buying IBM all over again. (Same goes for consultants brought in to work on a new project, do a conversion of an existing project or recommend a new platform: most of the time they'll go with the safer solution rather than the riskier one -- there's always one eye on future consulting business.) No, this obviously won't always be the case, but it's inevitable that at least some portion of the projects that would have chosen PostgreSQL or MySQL in the past will now stick with the safe solutions (at least career-wise) in the future. - Bill http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.h tml http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
If you read the FAQ, you will see: Oracle has announced an entry-level, small footprint starter database called Oracle Database 10g Express Edition (Oracle Database XE), which is: Free to download Free to develop deploy Free to distribute (including ISVs) Oracle Database XE is free for runtime usage with the following limitations: Supports up to 4GB of user data (in addition to Oracle system data) Single instance only of Oracle Database XE on any server Only uses and executes on one processor in any server Can use up to 1GB RAM Pretty limited. This is mostly a way for people to get hooked with it, or for existing Oracle users who need a few rinky-dink instances alongside bigger ones. On 10/31/05 11:50 AM, Alex Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I assume they are probably thinking of a free for non-commercial use, which is great and all, but I assume that like the majority of folks here, I am using postgres very much for commercial use, and not just to run my personal website! So I would say it's not a big deal, infact it's not even a small deal, it's really nothing. Alex. On 10/31/05, Wes Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I presume this thread was all brought about by the /. article http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/31/0659254tid=221tid=1 87 According to the link provided in the /. article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html), Oracle has *proposed* a free version by year end. Obviously this means that current download of Oracle 10g Express Edition is *not yet available under a free license.* -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Postgresql-General; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres? Highlights from the license: My thoughts. This is not free, not even as in beer. Only good for a year. No production use (which is more restrictive than no commercial use. IANAL) You have to pay when they release it. Quotes (with my bolding) grants to you a no-charge trial license to use the pre-production beta version of the Oracle Database Express Edition software, documentation and product training (the Software) provided to you by Oracle solely for evaluation purposes until January 31, 2006. Either party may terminate the license for the Software at any time. Upon termination, you shall cease using the Software. You may not use the Software for any commercial or production purpose. You shall not: d) disclose results of any benchmark tests of any Software to any third party without Oracle's prior written approval; if and when the Software is released in production, you may acquire licenses for the production version of the Software in accordance with Oracle's then standard licensing and pricing terms and conditions (which, at Oracle's sole discretion, may allow license of only some rather than all of the features of the Software). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/30/2005 01:24:52 PM: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On 11/1/2005 8:49 AM, Tom Lane wrote: Jan Wieck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 10/31/2005 1:14 PM, Chris Browne wrote: The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... It's not a joke. It fits exactly the small web application needs. Who will want to pay for a commercial MySQL license when they can run Oracle for free? People who can't figure out how to configure Postgres are not likely to get far with Oracle ;-). Unless Oracle has made some *huge* strides in ease of installation/administration with 10g, I see this making practically no dent in MySQL. Or PG for that matter. All they're really likely to accomplish is to cannibalize some of their own low-end sales. With those limitations, there isn't much left to configure. We are talking about a 4GB maximum DB size. That is one default tablespace with appropriate default extent sizes and pctinc. All the user needs to chose is one of 3 canned config files for using 256, 512 or 1024 MB of RAM. Jan -- #==# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #== [EMAIL PROTECTED] # ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 08:05, Wes Williams wrote: Still, at least Oracle 10g provides for an easy GUI from which to configure and perform imports and exports of data. Some of use have need for a database that can dump all data and accept another series of new data...only to be dropped again in a few days. The GUI tools make this MUCH easier - especially when dealing with many different types of tables and data formats. The GUI file import/export is one feature I would love to see next to enhance pgAdmin III! However, on the command line, the polarity is reversed (vague Star Trek reference there) and PostgreSQL enjoys a MUCH richer and easier to use set of utilities. I find psql to be much much easier to drive than oracle's SQL*PLus, which makes my head hurt. And I can't use a GUI for at least half of what I work on for security and networking reasons, so I have to have decent command line tools. I know for many GUI folks the command line seems a cold and forboding place, and god only knows that if you've ever been forced to use Oracle's command line tools, the scarring may be permanent, but honestly, do yourself a favor and spend an afternoon becoming familiar with psql. It's absolutely fantastic. Far and away the best command line interface of any database I've ever used, and one of the best selling points of postgresql. Between the \? listing of \ commands, and the \h listing of SQL commands, it has all the documentation right there at your fingertips. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Scott Marlowe writes: However, on the command line, the polarity is reversed (vague Star Trek reference there) reversing the polarity of the neutron flow: classic dr who reference, actually and PostgreSQL enjoys a MUCH richer and easier to use set of utilities. I find psql to be much much easier to drive than oracle's SQL*PLus, which makes my head hurt. i have to use the informix dbaccess tool here at the day job a lot. hate it. psql is so much nicer... i do not have fond memories of SQL*Plus, either. richard ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Lane) writes: Jan Wieck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 10/31/2005 1:14 PM, Chris Browne wrote: The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... It's not a joke. It fits exactly the small web application needs. Who will want to pay for a commercial MySQL license when they can run Oracle for free? People who can't figure out how to configure Postgres are not likely to get far with Oracle ;-). Unless Oracle has made some *huge* strides in ease of installation/administration with 10g, I see this making practically no dent in MySQL. Or PG for that matter. All they're really likely to accomplish is to cannibalize some of their own low-end sales. You're probably right; if this release of Oracle is as complex to install as has been typical, it won't chew up terribly much of the need an trivially easy to install database market. On the other hand, if they offer a reasonably easy to install default, it would indeed take some wind out of the sails (and sales; love those homonyms) of Microsoft, where users are accustomed to a whole lot of pointing and drooling. They don't have to do anything about MySQL AB this month; they already did that last month with the InnoDB OY thing... -- output = (cbbrowne @ cbbrowne.com) http://cbbrowne.com/info/linux.html If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk your ear off, leaving you wiser than before. If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet. -- Miguel Cruz ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
On 11/1/05, Welty, Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott Marlowe writes: and PostgreSQL enjoys a MUCH richer and easier to use set of utilities. I find psql to be much much easier to drive than oracle's SQL*PLus, which makes my head hurt. i have to use the informix dbaccess tool here at the day job a lot. hate it. psql is so much nicer... i do not have fond memories of SQL*Plus, either. Yes, sqlplus looks especially bad once you're used to banging around in psql. Although, I recently discovered rlwrap (a generic readline wrapper) which makes sqlplus almost tolerable. It's the best thing to happen to sqlplus since... well, since quit I suppose. http://www.dizwell.com/oracle/articles/cli_history.html ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Highlights from the license: My thoughts. This is not free, not even as in beer. Only good for a year. No production use (which is more restrictive than no commercial use. IANAL) You have to pay when they release it. Quotes (with my bolding) grants to you a no-charge trial license to use the pre-production beta version of the Oracle Database Express Edition software, documentation and product training (the Software) provided to you by Oracle solely for evaluation purposes until January 31, 2006. Either party may terminate the license for the Software at any time. Upon termination, you shall cease using the Software. You may not use the Software for any commercial or production purpose. You shall not: d) disclose results of any benchmark tests of any Software to any third party without Oracle's prior written approval; if and when the Software is released in production, you may acquire licenses for the production version of the Software in accordance with Oracle's then standard licensing and pricing terms and conditions (which, at Oracle's sole discretion, may allow license of only some rather than all of the features of the Software). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/30/2005 01:24:52 PM: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
I presume this thread was all brought about by the /. article http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/31/0659254tid=221tid=1 87 According to the link provided in the /. article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html), Oracle has *proposed* a free version by year end. Obviously this means that current download of Oracle 10g Express Edition is *not yet available under a free license.* -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Postgresql-General; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres? Highlights from the license: My thoughts. This is not free, not even as in beer. Only good for a year. No production use (which is more restrictive than no commercial use. IANAL) You have to pay when they release it. Quotes (with my bolding) grants to you a no-charge trial license to use the pre-production beta version of the Oracle Database Express Edition software, documentation and product training (the Software) provided to you by Oracle solely for evaluation purposes until January 31, 2006. Either party may terminate the license for the Software at any time. Upon termination, you shall cease using the Software. You may not use the Software for any commercial or production purpose. You shall not: d) disclose results of any benchmark tests of any Software to any third party without Oracle's prior written approval; if and when the Software is released in production, you may acquire licenses for the production version of the Software in accordance with Oracle's then standard licensing and pricing terms and conditions (which, at Oracle's sole discretion, may allow license of only some rather than all of the features of the Software). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/30/2005 01:24:52 PM: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
I assume they are probably thinking of a free for non-commercial use, which is great and all, but I assume that like the majority of folks here, I am using postgres very much for commercial use, and not just to run my personal website! So I would say it's not a big deal, infact it's not even a small deal, it's really nothing. Alex. On 10/31/05, Wes Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I presume this thread was all brought about by the /. article http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/31/0659254tid=221tid=1 87 According to the link provided in the /. article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html), Oracle has *proposed* a free version by year end. Obviously this means that current download of Oracle 10g Express Edition is *not yet available under a free license.* -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Postgresql-General; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres? Highlights from the license: My thoughts. This is not free, not even as in beer. Only good for a year. No production use (which is more restrictive than no commercial use. IANAL) You have to pay when they release it. Quotes (with my bolding) grants to you a no-charge trial license to use the pre-production beta version of the Oracle Database Express Edition software, documentation and product training (the Software) provided to you by Oracle solely for evaluation purposes until January 31, 2006. Either party may terminate the license for the Software at any time. Upon termination, you shall cease using the Software. You may not use the Software for any commercial or production purpose. You shall not: d) disclose results of any benchmark tests of any Software to any third party without Oracle's prior written approval; if and when the Software is released in production, you may acquire licenses for the production version of the Software in accordance with Oracle's then standard licensing and pricing terms and conditions (which, at Oracle's sole discretion, may allow license of only some rather than all of the features of the Software). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/30/2005 01:24:52 PM: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Perhaps I'm the only one to actually have read the article? Oracle 10g Express Edition HAS been available for free for development purposes with the previously posted and reviewed limited licenses for quite some time now. The news the zdnet.com article is reporting suggests Oracle WILL, by years end, make the same software available for free - even in production and commercial use. The Oracle 10g Express Edition is still limited software by means of hardware resources available to the database and a 4Gb [user] data file limit. -Original Message- From: Alex Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:50 AM To: Wes Williams Cc: Postgresql-General; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres? I assume they are probably thinking of a free for non-commercial use, which is great and all, but I assume that like the majority of folks here, I am using postgres very much for commercial use, and not just to run my personal website! So I would say it's not a big deal, infact it's not even a small deal, it's really nothing. Alex. On 10/31/05, Wes Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I presume this thread was all brought about by the /. article http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/31/0659254tid=221tid=1 87 According to the link provided in the /. article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html), Oracle has *proposed* a free version by year end. Obviously this means that current download of Oracle 10g Express Edition is *not yet available under a free license.* -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Postgresql-General; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres? Highlights from the license: My thoughts. This is not free, not even as in beer. Only good for a year. No production use (which is more restrictive than no commercial use. IANAL) You have to pay when they release it. Quotes (with my bolding) grants to you a no-charge trial license to use the pre-production beta version of the Oracle Database Express Edition software, documentation and product training (the Software) provided to you by Oracle solely for evaluation purposes until January 31, 2006. Either party may terminate the license for the Software at any time. Upon termination, you shall cease using the Software. You may not use the Software for any commercial or production purpose. You shall not: d) disclose results of any benchmark tests of any Software to any third party without Oracle's prior written approval; if and when the Software is released in production, you may acquire licenses for the production version of the Software in accordance with Oracle's then standard licensing and pricing terms and conditions (which, at Oracle's sole discretion, may allow license of only some rather than all of the features of the Software). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/30/2005 01:24:52 PM: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/31/2005 12:02:07 PM: Perhaps I'm the only one to actually have read the article? Okay, yeah. I went straight for the license. I have now read the article and agree with you. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Wes Williams) writes: Perhaps I'm the only one to actually have read the article? Oracle 10g Express Edition HAS been available for free for development purposes with the previously posted and reviewed limited licenses for quite some time now. The news the zdnet.com article is reporting suggests Oracle WILL, by years end, make the same software available for free - even in production and commercial use. The Oracle 10g Express Edition is still limited software by means of hardware resources available to the database and a 4Gb [user] data file limit. And I daresay that this _can_ be an attractive thing to businesses, supposing they offer a production release, gratis. There are plenty of departmental applications out there that involve limited amounts of data which can fit into the 4GB restriction. If Oracle provides a way to make it easy and cheap to deploy those, it can drive a fair bit of future Oracle business. The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... -- output = (cbbrowne @ cbbrowne.com) http://cbbrowne.com/info/languages.html Twice five syllables Plus seven can't say much but That's haiku for you. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/31/2005 01:14:57 PM: snip And I daresay that this _can_ be an attractive thing to businesses, supposing they offer a production release, gratis. snip True, as long as there is no license clause for future revocation of the free license at the vendor's whim. Kinda like the M$ clause in their *open* XML standard. Also, without source, deployments still are under threat of discontinued support. Kinda like Solaris 9 when Sun said they didn't know whether the x86 version would be released. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Precisely the point I was trying to make sure everyone would understand clearly. Although I don't have a copy of Oracle's suspected new license, if it is close to the existing license verbiage, even though it is crippled by having certain hardware and software limits, those limits are per physical server. Therefore, anyone could simply deploy several installations on different physical servers and have quite a collection of Oracle databases. One of Oracle's big selling points with this application is that it is very painless to upgrade to their professional versions of their database by not requiring ANY change to the existing database or applications - simply plug your data in and go. Judging from this, Oracle has decided to follow Microsoft's SQL Server's free SQL program offer and also a lesson from your local crack dealer. By the way, I've tried both Microsoft's and Oracle's developer versions and Oracle has a MUCH better product here at the moment. Good luck even getting SQL Server installed! You have to stumble upon the right beta for .Net 2.0 before the installer will proceed...it managed to find it in only 45 minutes! Enough to make you kick yourself again for trying a Microsoft product. However, Oracle 10g Express Edition actually installs and performs quite well. All and all this is no danger to PostgreSQL's existence; though it may slow uptake in very important markets. I've never thought marketing was Postgre's strong point...oddly enough, the product is. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chris Browne Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 1:15 PM To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres? And I daresay that this _can_ be an attractive thing to businesses, supposing they offer a production release, gratis. There are plenty of departmental applications out there that involve limited amounts of data which can fit into the 4GB restriction. If Oracle provides a way to make it easy and cheap to deploy those, it can drive a fair bit of future Oracle business. The fact that it appears a joke to people wanting to deploy big databases doesn't prevent it from taking a painful bite out of, oh, say, certain vendors that forgot to own their own transactional storage engine... -- output = (cbbrowne @ cbbrowne.com) http://cbbrowne.com/info/languages.html Twice five syllables Plus seven can't say much but That's haiku for you. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
[GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? -- Best regards, Nikolay ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Nikolay Samokhvalov wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? It probably has little impact on us. It is useful perhaps for developer servers at existing Oracle sites. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Hi, On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Bruce Momjian wrote: 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? It probably has little impact on us. It is useful perhaps for developer servers at existing Oracle sites. I hope one day Oracle will understand that Free Software is not Free Beer. -- Devrim GUNDUZ Kivi Bilişim Teknolojileri - http://www.kivi.com.tr devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr http://www.gunduz.org ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [GENERAL] Oracle 10g Express - any danger for Postgres?
Nikolay Samokhvalov wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/software/products/database/xe/index.html http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-5920796.html 'Oracle intends to release a free version of its database, a reaction to the growing competitive pressure from low-end open-source databases.' Your thoughts? Hm. so now I can choose between a crippled binary-only oracle version with no support, and free-as-in-speech-and-beer postgresql with excellent support on the mailing list? I think I'll stay with postgresql ;-) Just image you are running a production system on oracle 10g express, and reach the 4gb limit It's already bad enough that some versions of ms exchange limit your datafile to 16gb - I don't want my database to do the same. thanks... greetings, Florian Pflug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
