Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Fog - Ethereum driver
Hi Santiago, Maybe I could try to add the event support if I could manage to find the time and I can disturb you with my noob questions. Rafa. 2018-01-29 18:55 GMT+00:00 Santiago Bragagnolo : > Hi Rafael! > Events are not yet supported sadly. > If you are willing to do something about, we can discuss. By my side I > will be kind of busy during february. > > I hope to be able to do something about on march, but i cannot guarantee > it > > Santiago > > > On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 at 17:40 Rafael Luque > wrote: > >> Hi Santiago, >> >> I'm currently playing with Dapps on Ethereum using Truffle and web3.js, >> but it would be great to be able to use Pharo. >> >> I've downloaded Fog and started to read the tests and code, but I don't >> see support for events that is something I need for my current use cases. >> Maybe I don't know where to look or events are not (yet) supported? >> >> In any case, thank you for this contribution. >> >> >> 2017-03-14 9:51 GMT+00:00 Santiago Bragagnolo < >> santiagobragagn...@gmail.com>: >> >>> You are welcome :). We are doing some experiments for looking some >>> research branches on it. >>> So, writing some Dapps but not really productive. or not yet. >>> Any way, we still using solidity as language for the contracts. >>> >>> Santiago >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 at 19:44 Esteban A. Maringolo >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Very Nice! Thank you for building it. >>>> >>>> I started a similar project for the Bitcoin blockchain, but then I >>>> drifted away and never got back to it. >>>> >>>> Are you writing DAPPs? >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Esteban A. Maringolo >>>> >>>> >>>> 2017-03-13 12:00 GMT-03:00 Santiago Bragagnolo < >>>> santiagobragagn...@gmail.com>: >>>> > Hi all. Im happy to announce a pre release of the Fog ethereum driver >>>> that >>>> > we develop in the space of an Inria project. >>>> > >>>> > It still not complete but is already usable for some experiments and >>>> simple >>>> > projects. >>>> > >>>> > You can downloadit from >>>> > https://github.com/sbragagnolo/Fog/ >>>> > (https://github.com/sbragagnolo/Fog/releases/tag/v0.1.1.1) >>>> > >>>> > Dependencies >>>> > >>>> > RHash >>>> > >>>> > sudo apt-get install rhash >>>> > >>>> > Solidity >>>> > >>>> > npm install solc >>>> > >>>> > Download code >>>> > >>>> > Iceberg / Baseline >>>> > >>>> > Metacello >>>> > new >>>> > baseline: 'Fog'; >>>> > repository: 'github://sbragagnolo/Fog:v0.1.1.1/src'; >>>> > load. >>>> > >>>> > By hand >>>> > >>>> > You may want to use this version for having access to some scripts and >>>> > contracts samples. >>>> > >>>> > git checkout g...@github.com:sbragagnolo/Fog.git >>>> > >>>> > git checkout v0.1.1.1 >>>> > >>>> > Metacello >>>> > new >>>> > baseline: 'Fog'; >>>> > repository: 'filetree:///path/to/git-repository/Fog/src';; >>>> > load. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > It's based on the standar API for javascript >>>> > (https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/JavaScript-API) . >>>> > >>>> > It provides interaction with remote contracts, it do as well provides >>>> a way >>>> > for navigating the architecture objects: blocks, transactions, >>>> accounts and >>>> > contracts. >>>> > >>>> > I hope you find it useful. >>>> > >>>> > Feel free to fill the github issue tracker with anything you find :). >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I will come to you with some new exciting news about ethereum soon :) >>>> > >>>> > Santiago. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>
Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Fog - Ethereum driver
Hi Ben, I did these courses and they were very useful for me: https://www.zastrin.com/ Also the book "Blockchain Applications: A Hands-On Approach": https://www.amazon.com/Blockchain-Applications-Hands-Arshdeep-Bahga/dp/0996025553 Btw, Manning has the following MEAP: https://www.manning.com/books/building-ethereum-dapps Rafa. 2018-01-29 22:28 GMT+00:00 Ben Coman : > btw, I started doing this course... > https://www.udemy.com/ethereum-dapp/ > and hopefully this knowledge can transfer over to Pharo. > > Can anyone recommend other learning resources? > > cheers -ben > > On 30 January 2018 at 02:55, Santiago Bragagnolo > wrote: > > Hi Rafael! > > Events are not yet supported sadly. > > If you are willing to do something about, we can discuss. By my side I > will > > be kind of busy during february. > > > > I hope to be able to do something about on march, but i cannot guarantee > it > > > > Santiago > > > > > > On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 at 17:40 Rafael Luque > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Santiago, > >> > >> I'm currently playing with Dapps on Ethereum using Truffle and web3.js, > >> but it would be great to be able to use Pharo. > >> > >> I've downloaded Fog and started to read the tests and code, but I don't > >> see support for events that is something I need for my current use > cases. > >> Maybe I don't know where to look or events are not (yet) supported? > >> > >> In any case, thank you for this contribution. > >> > >> > >> 2017-03-14 9:51 GMT+00:00 Santiago Bragagnolo > >> : > >>> > >>> You are welcome :). We are doing some experiments for looking some > >>> research branches on it. > >>> So, writing some Dapps but not really productive. or not yet. > >>> Any way, we still using solidity as language for the contracts. > >>> > >>> Santiago > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 at 19:44 Esteban A. Maringolo < > emaring...@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Very Nice! Thank you for building it. > >>>> > >>>> I started a similar project for the Bitcoin blockchain, but then I > >>>> drifted away and never got back to it. > >>>> > >>>> Are you writing DAPPs? > >>>> > >>>> Best regards, > >>>> > >>>> Esteban A. Maringolo > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 2017-03-13 12:00 GMT-03:00 Santiago Bragagnolo > >>>> : > >>>> > Hi all. Im happy to announce a pre release of the Fog ethereum > driver > >>>> > that > >>>> > we develop in the space of an Inria project. > >>>> > > >>>> > It still not complete but is already usable for some experiments and > >>>> > simple > >>>> > projects. > >>>> > > >>>> > You can downloadit from > >>>> > https://github.com/sbragagnolo/Fog/ > >>>> > (https://github.com/sbragagnolo/Fog/releases/tag/v0.1.1.1) > >>>> > > >>>> > Dependencies > >>>> > > >>>> > RHash > >>>> > > >>>> > sudo apt-get install rhash > >>>> > > >>>> > Solidity > >>>> > > >>>> > npm install solc > >>>> > > >>>> > Download code > >>>> > > >>>> > Iceberg / Baseline > >>>> > > >>>> > Metacello > >>>> > new > >>>> > baseline: 'Fog'; > >>>> > repository: 'github://sbragagnolo/Fog:v0.1.1.1/src'; > >>>> > load. > >>>> > > >>>> > By hand > >>>> > > >>>> > You may want to use this version for having access to some scripts > and > >>>> > contracts samples. > >>>> > > >>>> > git checkout g...@github.com:sbragagnolo/Fog.git > >>>> > > >>>> > git checkout v0.1.1.1 > >>>> > > >>>> > Metacello > >>>> > new > >>>> > baseline: 'Fog'; > >>>> > repository: 'filetree:///path/to/git-repository/Fog/src';; > >>>> > load. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > It's based on the standar API for javascript > >>>> > (https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/JavaScript-API) . > >>>> > > >>>> > It provides interaction with remote contracts, it do as well > provides > >>>> > a way > >>>> > for navigating the architecture objects: blocks, transactions, > >>>> > accounts and > >>>> > contracts. > >>>> > > >>>> > I hope you find it useful. > >>>> > > >>>> > Feel free to fill the github issue tracker with anything you find > :). > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > I will come to you with some new exciting news about ethereum soon > :) > >>>> > > >>>> > Santiago. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >> > > > >
Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Fog - Ethereum driver
Hi Santiago, I'm currently playing with Dapps on Ethereum using Truffle and web3.js, but it would be great to be able to use Pharo. I've downloaded Fog and started to read the tests and code, but I don't see support for events that is something I need for my current use cases. Maybe I don't know where to look or events are not (yet) supported? In any case, thank you for this contribution. 2017-03-14 9:51 GMT+00:00 Santiago Bragagnolo : > You are welcome :). We are doing some experiments for looking some > research branches on it. > So, writing some Dapps but not really productive. or not yet. > Any way, we still using solidity as language for the contracts. > > Santiago > > > > On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 at 19:44 Esteban A. Maringolo > wrote: > >> Very Nice! Thank you for building it. >> >> I started a similar project for the Bitcoin blockchain, but then I >> drifted away and never got back to it. >> >> Are you writing DAPPs? >> >> Best regards, >> >> Esteban A. Maringolo >> >> >> 2017-03-13 12:00 GMT-03:00 Santiago Bragagnolo < >> santiagobragagn...@gmail.com>: >> > Hi all. Im happy to announce a pre release of the Fog ethereum driver >> that >> > we develop in the space of an Inria project. >> > >> > It still not complete but is already usable for some experiments and >> simple >> > projects. >> > >> > You can downloadit from >> > https://github.com/sbragagnolo/Fog/ >> > (https://github.com/sbragagnolo/Fog/releases/tag/v0.1.1.1) >> > >> > Dependencies >> > >> > RHash >> > >> > sudo apt-get install rhash >> > >> > Solidity >> > >> > npm install solc >> > >> > Download code >> > >> > Iceberg / Baseline >> > >> > Metacello >> > new >> > baseline: 'Fog'; >> > repository: 'github://sbragagnolo/Fog:v0.1.1.1/src'; >> > load. >> > >> > By hand >> > >> > You may want to use this version for having access to some scripts and >> > contracts samples. >> > >> > git checkout g...@github.com:sbragagnolo/Fog.git >> > >> > git checkout v0.1.1.1 >> > >> > Metacello >> > new >> > baseline: 'Fog'; >> > repository: 'filetree:///path/to/git-repository/Fog/src';; >> > load. >> > >> > >> > It's based on the standar API for javascript >> > (https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/JavaScript-API) . >> > >> > It provides interaction with remote contracts, it do as well provides a >> way >> > for navigating the architecture objects: blocks, transactions, accounts >> and >> > contracts. >> > >> > I hope you find it useful. >> > >> > Feel free to fill the github issue tracker with anything you find :). >> > >> > >> > I will come to you with some new exciting news about ethereum soon :) >> > >> > Santiago. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>
Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Next Pharo release moved to end of year
Hi Esteban, If it would possible to identify some tickets in FogBuz affordable for less expererienced smalltalkers, I think several devs here at Osoco (and other organizations) could contribute with the Pharo development. I know It would be a small help, but it's better than nothing. Rafa 2018-01-23 18:54 GMT+00:00 Stephan Eggermont : > Esteban Lorenzano > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > After some analysis of current condition of development, we decided to > > move the upcoming release to end of the year (and not May, as usual). > > Thanks for the clear and timely decision. Having to delay is never nice, > but with a high innovation rate comes a higher risk. Denial helps noone, > keep up the good work! > > Stephan > > > > > >
[Pharo-dev] Development dashboard for pharo-project repositories
Hi guys! I've just created a development analytics dashboard for the pharo-project organization at GitHub using Cauldron [1], a proof-of-concept by Bitergia, a University spin-off here in Madrid. You can play with the dashboard at: https://cauldron.io/ dashboards/pharo-project I expect you enjoy it and get insights about the Pharo community. [1] https://cauldron.io/ -- Rafael Luque
Re: [Pharo-dev] Any idea for a cool name for the remote tool suite?
My two cents... * Pharoscope from Pharo + Telescope. * Phresnel from Fresnel lenses [1] used in lighthouses to be visible over greater distances. [1] Fresnel lens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens. 2017-01-29 22:16 GMT+01:00 Cyril Ferlicot D. : > Le 29/01/2017 à 15:14, stepharong a écrit : > > Hi guys > > > > Since we will push the remote tools (videos/web...) I would like to get > > some ideas for a cool name. > > Any ideas? > > > > Because Pharmide (looks like medicine or chemical product). > > Since I vaguely remember some german Pharmide made me think about > > Fern(sehen) but this is not a good name. > > > > Stef > > > > > > -- > > > > RIDE? (Remote Integrated Development Environment) > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > > http://www.synectique.eu > > 2 rue Jacques Prévert 01, > 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France > >
Re: [Pharo-dev] PharoNOS
Then, PharoNOS does not mean No Operating System, but minimun operating system? A few days ago I answered in this list about Smalltalk-based unikernels, similar to Mirage OS (http://www.openmirage.org/). Do you think PharoNOS can evolve into this kind of tool? 2014-10-17 10:28 GMT+02:00 kilon alios : > I see, I dont have experience with TinyCore linux, but I do have > experience with puppy linux which I really liked and used several times on > my older pcs. Interest concept , good work :) > > Actually puppy linux is similar to what you do, in the sense that it uses > its own programming language , genie > > > https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/Projects/Genie?action=show&redirect=Genie > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:59 AM, mikefilonov > wrote: > >> Yes, the idea of PharoNOS is to have the Smalltalk-only environment with >> as >> little external stuff as possible. >> >> Current PharoNOS implementation based on TinyCore Linux - the smallest >> Linux >> distro - in order to have the smallest possible system footprint. >> >> >Why not just download a small linux distro and install Pharo ? >> >> Well, basically this what PharoNOS is :) >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/PharoNOS-tp4784982p4785089.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk
Dennis, It would be great to receive your ideas about how to use mocks in this case. Feel free to add any comment directly in the screencast at Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/19591202) Thank you! 2013/6/7 Dennis Schetinin > As for me, the StringCalculator kata is a very good (or better to say > nearly perfect) demo of a classic TDD approach: small and fast steps, live > objects… really nice! > > Though I see (feel?) some issues… mostly about factoring-out new classes > without tests (yes, that was refactoring… but still), I believe, that's > beyond classic approach and only top-down TDD with mocks may help to keep > TDD pure here. (I've scheduled a task for detailed exploration of how mocks > can be used here to provide "seamless" TDD in this case.) > > So, this screencast is a great lesson on TDD in Smalltalk. > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > 2013/6/7 Rafael Luque > >> Hi Dennis, >> >> What do you think about the approach shown in this screencast: >> http://www.pharocasts.com/2011/02/stringcalculator-kata.html ? >> >> I'm far away from being an Smalltalk developer, but I tried to show a TDD >> process to solve this simple kata. >> >> Rafael Luque >> >> >> 2013/6/7 Dennis Schetinin >> >>> I don't remember exactly where and when, but I think we've discussed the >>> Laser Game tutorial already. I told this before, and I (after reviewing the >>> tutorial again) should repeat it again: actually, this tutorial doesn't >>> show TDD. I can explain my opinion in detail if someone's interested, but >>> in general, that's simply an up-front design approach with some automatic >>> testing. It's not even "Test-First" approach most of time. >>> >>> Disclaimer: I don't mean the tutorial and/or the design approach used >>> there are bad. I like this tutorial. It's really very good: it shows many >>> aspects for Smalltalk programing, it shows how to use debugger and >>> inspectors properly. I borrowed many ideas from there for my Smalltalk >>> programming course… It's just not TDD, not "pure" TDD at least. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> Dennis Schetinin >>> >>> >>> 2013/6/7 >>> >>> Paul Davidowitz wrote: >>>> >>>>> It seems to me that a big reason for developing via writing tests first >>>>> (Test Driven Development) is that the tests serve as a debugging tool >>>>> -- >>>>> if a test breaks, then the last piece of (non-test) code that change is >>>>> likely the culprit. But with the powerful debugging environment that >>>>> comes with Smalltalk, I am wondering of the utility of TDD (TDD is big >>>>> in the Ruby camp perhaps for a reason). After all, writing and >>>>> re-writing the tests becomes quite a non-trivial chore (not to mention >>>>> that the tests themselves could be buggy). So my question: Is it ok in >>>>> Smalltalk to write tests afterwards? Is it even perhaps recommended? >>>>> >>>>> - Paul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Actually some Smalltalk'ers consider the debugger a major facilitator >>>> of TDD by mostly coding from within the debugger. >>>> 1. Before writing any application code, write a test. >>>> 2. Execute that test straight away. Of course it fails because you >>>> haven't written any application code. >>>> 3. Up comes the debugger - now "from within the debugger" add the >>>> application code needed to satisfy the test. >>>> 4. Repeat. >>>> >>>> A good demonstration of this is Stephan Wessels' Laser Game tutorial >>>> [1] (but you'll temporarily need to revert to Squeak 3.9 to do it) >>>> cheers -ben >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk
Hi Dennis, What do you think about the approach shown in this screencast: http://www.pharocasts.com/2011/02/stringcalculator-kata.html ? I'm far away from being an Smalltalk developer, but I tried to show a TDD process to solve this simple kata. Rafael Luque 2013/6/7 Dennis Schetinin > I don't remember exactly where and when, but I think we've discussed the > Laser Game tutorial already. I told this before, and I (after reviewing the > tutorial again) should repeat it again: actually, this tutorial doesn't > show TDD. I can explain my opinion in detail if someone's interested, but > in general, that's simply an up-front design approach with some automatic > testing. It's not even "Test-First" approach most of time. > > Disclaimer: I don't mean the tutorial and/or the design approach used > there are bad. I like this tutorial. It's really very good: it shows many > aspects for Smalltalk programing, it shows how to use debugger and > inspectors properly. I borrowed many ideas from there for my Smalltalk > programming course… It's just not TDD, not "pure" TDD at least. > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > 2013/6/7 > > Paul Davidowitz wrote: >> >>> It seems to me that a big reason for developing via writing tests first >>> (Test Driven Development) is that the tests serve as a debugging tool -- >>> if a test breaks, then the last piece of (non-test) code that change is >>> likely the culprit. But with the powerful debugging environment that >>> comes with Smalltalk, I am wondering of the utility of TDD (TDD is big >>> in the Ruby camp perhaps for a reason). After all, writing and >>> re-writing the tests becomes quite a non-trivial chore (not to mention >>> that the tests themselves could be buggy). So my question: Is it ok in >>> Smalltalk to write tests afterwards? Is it even perhaps recommended? >>> >>> - Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Actually some Smalltalk'ers consider the debugger a major facilitator of >> TDD by mostly coding from within the debugger. >> 1. Before writing any application code, write a test. >> 2. Execute that test straight away. Of course it fails because you >> haven't written any application code. >> 3. Up comes the debugger - now "from within the debugger" add the >> application code needed to satisfy the test. >> 4. Repeat. >> >> A good demonstration of this is Stephan Wessels' Laser Game tutorial [1] >> (but you'll temporarily need to revert to Squeak 3.9 to do it) >> cheers -ben >> >> >> >
Re: [Pharo-dev] Necessity of TDD with Smalltalk
I absolutely agree that TDD is more related with the design process than simple testing. As "uncle Bob" wrote in his PPP book: "The act of writing a unit test is more an act of design than of verification." IMO a good dissertation about the true nature of TDD can be found here: http://www.drdobbs.com/tdd-is-about-design-not-testing/229218691 By other hand, another obvious difference between testing (not necessarily TDD) and debugging is that the first one can be easily automated, though debugging requires manual operation. Rafael Luque 2013/6/6 Dennis Schetinin > TDD is not about tests (as a bug-finding/debugger tool) at all. And the > anti-regression feature of TDD is just the secondary one. > > First of all, TDD is about structuring thinking/creation process. And > "test" here is a tool that allows and makes developer to formalize > requirements and to translate them to the language they will be implemented > in. This starts and really drives coding. Thus, a programmer that really > masters TDD (really means an ability to apply "pure" TDD for all > programming activities: both top-down and bottom-up design activities) is > expected to produce much better architecture/design/code. > > … So, I don't think TDD is somehow obsolete by Smalltalk. Vice versa, TDD > should be really efficient here. And it's a great pity TDD is not actually > popular in Smalltalk society. One of the dire consequences is that modern > Smalltalk environments are not "TDD-oriented" and don't advantage from good > TDD methodology. > > … Yea, that's just one of my pet peeves :) > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > > Dennis Schetinin > > > 2013/6/6 kilon > >> I dont think a debugger can ever replace TDD for two reason >> >> a) Tests are faster way to find bugs that don't want to be found ;) >> >> b) Tests are more than debugging tools >> >> (A) If you have already created a large suite of tests then all it takes >> is >> to fire those tests and just wait for the result to come out. Much fastert >> than going one by one bug. Also I dont know if the same applies for >> smalltalk but when i was coding for python not all code was executed and >> so >> I did not see all the bugs my code contains. So I had to test the app >> myself >> in many diffirent ways and I quickly found out that writing tests was way >> faster in the long run. >> >> (B) tests also make sure that your code behaves the way you want to behave >> and produces the result you want to produce. It may not be a bug per se, >> just a weird behavior. They also set a design pattern for your code to >> follow in the future. >> >> Generally speaking I use TDD for long code or code that is going to be >> maintained in the long run and get larger and larger. I think in that >> scenario TDD really excells. TDD is very popular in python, its part of >> the >> main library cpython(unittesting.py) comes with and there is also a third >> party library called "Nose" that even offer more features. >> >> I think TDD helps you keep your sanity in the long run especially with >> big >> projects and complex code. >> >> Debuggers are more like microscopes while i see TDD more like Satelites on >> orbit. ;) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-dev-Necessity-of-TDD-with-Smalltalk-tp4691867p4691929.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> >
Re: [Pharo-dev] do not forget to register to the pharo web day
Steph, Which will be the conference language? English of French? and, do you plan to record and publish the sessions? Rafa 2013/5/22 Stéphane Ducasse > Please register for the pharo web day > > > http://www.inria.fr/centre/lille/agenda/conference-web-3.0-avec-pharo > >
Re: [Pharo-dev] [sbe] Pharo por Ejemplo vs Pharo en exemplos
I contributed to this translation with the Syntax and Seaside chapters. IMO "Pharo en Ejemplos" sounds more natural than "Pharo por Ejemplo" that is the literal word-by-word translation. Rafa 2013/5/21 stephane ducasse > > On May 21, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote: > > > > > Be careful, there are many different forms of Spanish. The title should > be consistent with the main text. We are not qualified to judge. Ask > someone who knows the different dialects. > > > Yes I know :) > > > > > Oscar > > > > --- > > Prof. Dr. O. Nierstrasz-- os...@iam.unibe.ch > > Software Composition Group -- http://scg.unibe.ch/oscar > > University of Bern -- Tel/Fax +41 31 631.4618/3355 > > > > > > On 2013-05-21, at 8:18, Stéphane Ducasse > wrote: > > > >> Hi guys > >> > >> one guy mentions that Pharo en exemplos is a better translation than > Pharo por Ejemplo so what is your point of view on that? > >> > >> Stef > >> ___ > >> sbe mailing list > >> s...@iam.unibe.ch > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/sbe > > > > ___ > > sbe mailing list > > s...@iam.unibe.ch > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/sbe > > >
