Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
At 01:29 PM 5/4/2001 +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I think that there are two ways to look at the issue that John raised. One, is a cosmetic change, that would add a bit of bloat to classes, and retain another name in them. Allowing access to it using some specialized function (get_beautiful_class_name() or something like that). The other, is a more fundamental change, and it is to change PHP to be case dependant. PHP 4.0 follows the standard set by PHP/FI 2.0 (or earlier), and maintains case sensitivity for variable names, but not function names or class names. IMHO, there's very little reason for this inconsistency, and PHP would have been better off with full case sensitivity across class names, function names and variable names. It would also improve performance fairly significantly. IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. I wouldn't mind that and then both John and me would be happy :) Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
[Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED]] I think that there are two ways to look at the issue that John raised. One, is a cosmetic change, that would add a bit of bloat to classes, and retain another name in them. Allowing access to it using some specialized function (get_beautiful_class_name() or something like that). The other, is a more fundamental change, and it is to change PHP to be case dependant. PHP 4.0 follows the standard set by PHP/FI 2.0 (or earlier), and maintains case sensitivity for variable names, but not function names or class names. IMHO, there's very little reason for this inconsistency, and PHP would have been better off with full case sensitivity across class names, function names and variable names. It would also improve performance fairly significantly. IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. Ouch. What about making case sensitivity an option that is disabled by default in 4.1, and changing the default for 4.2. IMHO changing this default alone is enough to warrant the 4.1 - 4.2 transition. - Stig -- Stig Sæther Bakken [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fast Search Transfer ASA, Trondheim, Norway -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
Let's not worry about the versions right now; I'm mostly interested in getting feedback about the concept itself. Zeev At 14:30 4/5/2001, Stig Sæther Bakken wrote: [Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED]] I think that there are two ways to look at the issue that John raised. One, is a cosmetic change, that would add a bit of bloat to classes, and retain another name in them. Allowing access to it using some specialized function (get_beautiful_class_name() or something like that). The other, is a more fundamental change, and it is to change PHP to be case dependant. PHP 4.0 follows the standard set by PHP/FI 2.0 (or earlier), and maintains case sensitivity for variable names, but not function names or class names. IMHO, there's very little reason for this inconsistency, and PHP would have been better off with full case sensitivity across class names, function names and variable names. It would also improve performance fairly significantly. IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. Ouch. What about making case sensitivity an option that is disabled by default in 4.1, and changing the default for 4.2. IMHO changing this default alone is enough to warrant the 4.1 - 4.2 transition. - Stig -- Stig Sæther Bakken [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fast Search Transfer ASA, Trondheim, Norway -- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
Let's not worry about the versions right now; I'm mostly interested in getting feedback about the concept itself. Making PHP case sensitive seems like a good idea. (I've always wondered why bits of it were and bits weren't, to be honest.) I agree on this one too. What about writing a migration tool that can fix the existing code automagically? Edin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
At 15:34 4/5/2001, Edin Kadribasic wrote: I agree on this one too. What about writing a migration tool that can fix the existing code automagically? It'll be possible. Let's take it one step at a time though... Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
At 15:32 4/5/2001, John Parker wrote: Hmm... hope Sterling's work on ADT (sweet, sweet ADT, drool, etc.) isn't delayed due to this. (Doubt it would be, but you never know.) ADT? (I know what it means, but not in the context of PHP) Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names - ADT
Hmm... hope Sterling's work on ADT (sweet, sweet ADT, drool, etc.) isn't delayed due to this. (Doubt it would be, but you never know.) ADT? (I know what it means, but not in the context of PHP) It was briefly mentioned on the Weekly Summary for 23/03/01 on the Zend web site. (http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week34.php) Probably best to ask Sterling himself for the details, but here's what he responded with when I asked him: adt, advanced data types, is built in support for things like linked lists, b-trees, m-trees, hash's, etc. -Sterling As I've said, I can't imagine that case sensitivity will affect this in the least. (To be more accurate, I hope it doesn't, as I could really do with access to some of the above real-soon-now. Still, the best things in life are worth waiting for.) JP. -- John Parker email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Project Manager/Software Engineer web:www.itchannel.net itCHANNEL International Ltd. tel: +44 (0) 1202 291939 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names - ADT
Ah; I'd imagine it'll be implemented as an extension module and not on the language level, so it shouldn't be related in any way. Zeev At 15:56 4/5/2001, John Parker wrote: Hmm... hope Sterling's work on ADT (sweet, sweet ADT, drool, etc.) isn't delayed due to this. (Doubt it would be, but you never know.) ADT? (I know what it means, but not in the context of PHP) It was briefly mentioned on the Weekly Summary for 23/03/01 on the Zend web site. (http://www.zend.com/zend/week/week34.php) Probably best to ask Sterling himself for the details, but here's what he responded with when I asked him: adt, advanced data types, is built in support for things like linked lists, b-trees, m-trees, hash's, etc. -Sterling As I've said, I can't imagine that case sensitivity will affect this in the least. (To be more accurate, I hope it doesn't, as I could really do with access to some of the above real-soon-now. Still, the best things in life are worth waiting for.) JP. -- John Parker email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Project Manager/Software Engineer web:www.itchannel.net itCHANNEL International Ltd. tel: +44 (0) 1202 291939 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
Zeev Suraski wrote: ADT? (I know what it means, but not in the context of PHP) Sterling is working for some time now on a ADT extension for PHP, that offers native PHP data-types for Lists, Trees, ... -- sebastian bergmann[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de bonn.phpug.de | www.php.net | www.phpOpenTracker.de | www.titanchat.de -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
Zeev Suraski wrote: It would also improve performance fairly significantly. Just curious, since I don't know the 'inner magic' of the ZendEngine: Why do you expect a performance improvement by introducing case sensitivity for class/function names? -- sebastian bergmann[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de bonn.phpug.de | www.php.net | www.phpOpenTracker.de | www.titanchat.de -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
On Fri, 4 May 2001, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Zeev Suraski wrote: It would also improve performance fairly significantly. Just curious, since I don't know the 'inner magic' of the ZendEngine: Why do you expect a performance improvement by introducing case sensitivity for class/function names? I think it would be because of getting rid of tolower() and company calls. -- Sincerely yours, Alexander Bokovoy The Midgard Project | www.midgard-project.org | ALT Linux Team Minsk Linux Users Group |www.minsk-lug.net| www.altlinux.ru -- I'm successful because I'm lucky. The harder I work, the luckier I get. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
On Fri, 04 May 2001, Zeev Suraski wrote: I think that there are two ways to look at the issue that John raised. One, is a cosmetic change, that would add a bit of bloat to classes, and retain another name in them. Allowing access to it using some specialized function (get_beautiful_class_name() or something like that). The other, is a more fundamental change, and it is to change PHP to be case dependant. PHP 4.0 follows the standard set by PHP/FI 2.0 (or earlier), and maintains case sensitivity for variable names, but not function names or class names. IMHO, there's very little reason for this inconsistency, and PHP would have been better off with full case sensitivity across class names, function names and variable names. It would also improve performance fairly significantly. IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. +1. -Andrei It is commonly the case with technologies that you can get the best insight about how they work by watching them fail. -- Neal Stephenson -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
From zend_execute.c: tmp = *function_name; zval_copy_ctor(tmp); convert_to_string(tmp); function_name = tmp; zend_str_tolower(tmp.value.str.val, tmp.value.str.len); That can be avoided altogether if case sensitivity is enabled. Zeev At 16:41 4/5/2001, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: Zeev Suraski wrote: It would also improve performance fairly significantly. Just curious, since I don't know the 'inner magic' of the ZendEngine: Why do you expect a performance improvement by introducing case sensitivity for class/function names? -- sebastian bergmann[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de bonn.phpug.de | www.php.net | www.phpOpenTracker.de | www.titanchat.de -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
Quoting Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The other, is a more fundamental change, and it is to change PHP to be case dependant. PHP 4.0 follows the standard set by PHP/FI 2.0 (or earlier), and maintains case sensitivity for variable names, but not function names or class names. IMHO, there's very little reason for this inconsistency, and PHP would have been better off with full case sensitivity across class names, function names and variable names. It would also improve performance fairly significantly. +1 I've always treated php as case sensitive just because I was confused as to where it was and where it wasn't. Having it actually be that way would be great. -chuck -- It takes 170 decibels to rupture the human eardrum. Less, if Celine Dion is singing. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
Zeev Suraski schrieb: The other, is a more fundamental change, and it is to change PHP to be case dependant. PHP 4.0 follows the standard set by PHP/FI 2.0 (or earlier), and maintains case sensitivity for variable names, but not function names or class names. IMHO, there's very little reason for this inconsistency, and PHP would have been better off with full case sensitivity across class names, function names and variable names. It would also improve performance fairly significantly. I'd appreciate the change to break with the mixed case sensitivity and case insesitivity. I'm just a little afraid, that it might break existing code, although I'm sure one will write a tool to convert source files. Ulf -- PHP lernen? Noch sind Schulungsplätze frei: http://www.netuse.de/ Ulf Wendel, NetUSE AG Siemenswall, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 436 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
At 16:45 4/5/2001, Wez Furlong wrote: Stig suggested making it case-insensitive by default until 4.2; I think that has a higher WTF factor than making it case sensitive in 4.1 I truly suggest to keep the version number issue to some other time... Zeev -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
On 2001-05-04 14:45:48, Wez Furlong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that has a higher WTF factor than making it case sensitive in 4.1 4.0 I mean. --Wez. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
On Fri, 4 May 2001, Zeev Suraski wrote: IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. +1 --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
On Fri, 4 May 2001, Zeev Suraski wrote: IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. +1 from me too. -Chris -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. +1 +1 =) Peter [DiSAStA] Petermann
Re: [PHP-DEV] Classes function names
On Fri, 4 May 2001, Zeev Suraski wrote: IMHO, in a compatibility breaking upgrade, we should look into defaulting to case sensitivity, while allowing case insensitivity as a non-default option. Zeev That solves my problem and makes me happy. +1 -- John Donagher Application Engineer Intacct Corp. - Powerful Accounting on the Web 408-395-0989 720 University Ave. Los Gatos CA 95032 www.intacct.com Public key available off http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 4024 DF50 56EE 19A3 258A D628 22DE AD56 EEBE 8DDD -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
