Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-25 Thread SLanger
A different approache for the captcha.. instead of using a blurred image 
use some text and than ask a question about the text like

What does the 2nd word in the first line of the 4thparagraph say?

Things to make sure:

- Use enough texts so that guessing the correct word is not possible.
- Use random word extraction to make the word different on each 
invocation.
- Use different questions types and mix numbers and words. Like what is 
the word after the first word... stuff like that 10 different question 
should suffice
- make sure that you have a timeout or relocation after a wrong word to 
make brute force attacks unattractive or even impossible

This should be fairly easy to implement using db and php and is not quite 
as complicated as creating a blurry image.  (IMHO) The system is easy to 
extend and easy to use by humans. 

Regards 
Stefan Langer

Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-25 Thread CPT John W. Holmes
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 A different approache for the captcha.. instead of using a blurred image
 use some text and than ask a question about the text like

 What does the 2nd word in the first line of the 4thparagraph say?

Reading images can still be automated, it just takes a lot more time to
write a program to do so. A simple paragraph with text would be easy
(relatively speaking) for a program to decipher and automatically answer.

That's why you make the image screwy... the letters are tilted,
overlapping, wavy, colored, or complex backgrounds, etc. Even the best of
those images can be read by computer programs, though, although very few
people would be able to write that program.

Read here: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~mori/gimpy/gimpy.html

---John Holmes...

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[PHP] Antwort: Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-25 Thread SLanger
I agree that an image captcha can not be cracked by a lot of people, 
allthough it has been done. (and it takes only one program being released 
to do the job : ) ) Somethings to keep in mind is that you should use 
passphrases made up of random letters and numbers preventing the automated 
system from guessing them. 
The text captcha is based on the idea that the question you ask has to be 
interpreted first. I admit my question was not the best example but it 
should give an idea. A (maybe) better example:

The author Frank Example is 35 years old. 
He studies Law at Harvard.
BTW he says Hi.
,
What does the author Frank say? 
In a real world app this would be contained in a much larger text block 
and the question and text would be changed on each attempt.
If you have a wide enough base of such questions it becomes virtually 
impossible to guess the correct word leaving only a brute force attack.
A text captcha is fairly easy to set up using mysql and php but if you 
have a image captcha generator go with it or better even combine the two, 
it all depends on the grade of security you need against automation. 

regards 
Stefan Langer

[PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hi all,
Am having a bit of a problem understanding this, can anybody tell me where
i'm going wrong please?

Basically trying to limit the vote to just 1 per person, first am checking
if the the person with username has voted, if that comes back as false then
am checking his ip (because i dont know if  the person changed his username
and is trying to vote again) now its allowing me to vote twice and on the
third time its restricting me.

*code*
$check=select vote_date from site_rateing where user='.$username.' and
sitenumber=.$n;
$res = mysql_query($check) or die(Error:  . mysql_error());
$check_result = mysql_num_rows($res);

 if($check_result !=1)
  { $oneVote=1;

  $check2=select count(*) from site_rateing where ipno='.$theIP.' and
sitenumber=.$n;
  $check_result2 = mysql_result(mysql_query($check2),0);

if($check_result2 =1)
{ $oneVote=2;}else{$oneVote=1;}

  }// end of first if


if($oneVote ==2)
{
 $row = mysql_fetch_row($res);
 print(Sorry, You have already voted on .$row[0]..br Only one vote
is allowed);
 exit;
}
else
//continue with the program.
*code*

Any ideas?

Thanks,
-Ryan

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RE: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jeremy Russell
You might try to perform bother queries first then check then by

If ($result1 || $result2) {
echo You have already voted;
} else {
 ...

}

This means that if either the username or ip or both exists in the db,
then the user is denied...

Hope this is along the lines of what your needing to do.

 -Original Message-
 From: Ryan A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 12:38 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem
 
 Hi all,
 Am having a bit of a problem understanding this, can anybody tell me
where
 i'm going wrong please?
 
 Basically trying to limit the vote to just 1 per person, first am
 checking
 if the the person with username has voted, if that comes back as false
 then
 am checking his ip (because i dont know if  the person changed his
 username
 and is trying to vote again) now its allowing me to vote twice and on
the
 third time its restricting me.
 
 *code*
 $check=select vote_date from site_rateing where user='.$username.'
and
 sitenumber=.$n;
 $res = mysql_query($check) or die(Error:  . mysql_error());
 $check_result = mysql_num_rows($res);
 
  if($check_result !=1)
   { $oneVote=1;
 
   $check2=select count(*) from site_rateing where ipno='.$theIP.'
and
 sitenumber=.$n;
   $check_result2 = mysql_result(mysql_query($check2),0);
 
 if($check_result2 =1)
 { $oneVote=2;}else{$oneVote=1;}
 
   }// end of first if
 
 
 if($oneVote ==2)
 {
  $row = mysql_fetch_row($res);
  print(Sorry, You have already voted on .$row[0]..br Only one
 vote
 is allowed);
  exit;
 }
 else
 //continue with the program.
 *code*
 
 Any ideas?
 
 Thanks,
 -Ryan
 
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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread CPT John W. Holmes
From: Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Basically trying to limit the vote to just 1 per person, first am
checking
 if the the person with username has voted, if that comes back as false
then
 am checking his ip (because i dont know if  the person changed his
username
 and is trying to vote again) now its allowing me to vote twice and on the
 third time its restricting me.

Just get rid of the check for IP address. All you're going to do is restrict
a bunch of people that actually haven't voted just because they have the
same IP address as someone else. Some ISPs have it so that all requests look
like they are coming from the same IP address while it's actually different
people.

If your poll is really so important that you need to limit people from
voting twice, then make them log in and only allow one vote per username.

---John Holmes...

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RE: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Dan Joseph
Hi,

Another way to restrict them to one vote is to set a cookie.  Although not
completely full-proof, its a method I've seen a lot of them use.

-Dan Joseph

 -Original Message-
 From: CPT John W. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:54 PM
 To: Ryan A; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem


 From: Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Basically trying to limit the vote to just 1 per person, first am
 checking
  if the the person with username has voted, if that comes back as false
 then
  am checking his ip (because i dont know if  the person changed his
 username
  and is trying to vote again) now its allowing me to vote twice
 and on the
  third time its restricting me.

 Just get rid of the check for IP address. All you're going to do
 is restrict
 a bunch of people that actually haven't voted just because they have the
 same IP address as someone else. Some ISPs have it so that all
 requests look
 like they are coming from the same IP address while it's actually
 different
 people.

 If your poll is really so important that you need to limit people from
 voting twice, then make them log in and only allow one vote per username.

 ---John Holmes...

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hey John,
Thanks for replying.

 Just get rid of the check for IP address. All you're going to do is
restrict
 a bunch of people that actually haven't voted just because they have the
 same IP address as someone else. Some ISPs have it so that all requests
look
 like they are coming from the same IP address while it's actually
different
 people.

 If your poll is really so important that you need to limit people from
 voting twice, then make them log in and only allow one vote per username.

I thought of that, I am making them login before voteing but whats to stop
them from changing usernames and then voteing again?

Am open to ALL suggestions and ideas but I have to make this pretty secure
as a lot of big company names are involved and may try to boost their own
rateings as money is involved.

Any ideas spit them my way :-D

Cheers,
-Ryan

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RE: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread chris . neale
You could take it further and only allow one vote per user and then log
their IP address as well.

There won't be many people who are determined to sway the vote by going
through the hassle of creating a new user and then voting again. But there
may be some. You can weed these out by looking through all the votes,
usernames and ip addresses and then disregard votes which come from the same
IP address from users who've only signed up minutes before voting. While
they might think that they've beaten the system, you can clearly see from
your table of users, registration dates, IP address and Voting Times that
they're bogus. But it's a bit laborious to do this.

Alternatively, once you've stored the first vote from a user in your
database, let them vote again, give them the 'Thank you for your vote'
message but disregard it from the server side. They'll think they're getting
somewhere when in fact they're wasting their time (like those morons you see
at pedestrian crossings who stab the button repeatedly, with the belief that
it might make the lights change faster). And they probably won't try
anything else which saves you having to delete a whole pile of junk user
accounts. Just make sure you only show your users the poll result as a
percentage without the 'x number of people have voted' or you'll be sussed.

Would anyone really want to frig a forum poll anyway? Surely nobody's that
sad!

C

-Original Message-
From: CPT John W. Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 24 September 2003 17:54
To: Ryan A; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem


From: Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Basically trying to limit the vote to just 1 per person, first am
checking
 if the the person with username has voted, if that comes back as false
then
 am checking his ip (because i dont know if  the person changed his
username
 and is trying to vote again) now its allowing me to vote twice and on the
 third time its restricting me.

Just get rid of the check for IP address. All you're going to do is restrict
a bunch of people that actually haven't voted just because they have the
same IP address as someone else. Some ISPs have it so that all requests look
like they are coming from the same IP address while it's actually different
people.

If your poll is really so important that you need to limit people from
voting twice, then make them log in and only allow one vote per username.

---John Holmes...

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jason Wong
On Thursday 25 September 2003 02:21, Ryan A wrote:

  If your poll is really so important that you need to limit people from
  voting twice, then make them log in and only allow one vote per username.

 I thought of that, I am making them login before voteing but whats to stop
 them from changing usernames and then voteing again?

 Am open to ALL suggestions and ideas but I have to make this pretty secure
 as a lot of big company names are involved and may try to boost their own
 rateings as money is involved.

 Any ideas spit them my way :-D

Charge them a thousand dollars for each vote. That should cut down on some of 
the fraud.

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RE: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Chris Shiflett
--- Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Another way to restrict them to one vote is to set a cookie.
 Although not completely full-proof, its a method I've seen a lot
 of them use.

That's way too easy to avoid. You might rule out the bottom 50% of the computer
illiterate, but these are probably the people who are having trouble casting
their vote once, much less trying to cast a second vote.

Also, while everyone else is doing it is a good reason to at least research a
particular method, it's not a good reason to choose it.

Hope that helps.

Chris

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jason Wong
On Thursday 25 September 2003 02:13, Dan Joseph wrote:

   Another way to restrict them to one vote is to set a cookie.  Although not
 completely full-proof, its a method I've seen a lot of them use.

This is probably the easiest 'security' measure to circumvent. How hard is it 
to delete a cookie?

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RE: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Dan Joseph
Hi,

  Another way to restrict them to one vote is to set a 
 cookie.  Although not
  completely full-proof, its a method I've seen a lot of them use.

Ok, let's examine the part where I said its not full-proof...  

-Dan Joseph

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jason Wong
On Thursday 25 September 2003 03:52, Dan Joseph wrote:

   Ok, let's examine the part where I said its not full-proof...

I believe you mean fool-proof? Actually it *is* pretty fool-proof, because 
hopefully fools aren't smart enough to delete said cookies ;-)

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hey John,
Thats already done, the user has to authenticate his address by clicking on
the link which contains his $CNO and $random_number
But the rateing system is for webhosts, and webhosts usually have a catch
all email address so they can use n number of email addresses

Cheers,
-Ryan


 So make your registration process do the work and ensure users are unique,
 not the poll engine. Have them supply an email address that they must
reply
 to (or click a link within) in order to validate. Get one of those image
 programs where you have to type in the letters/numbers off the image
that'll
 stop automatic registrations. Make sure everything important is done over
 SSL.

 ---John Holmes...




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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hey,
 You could take it further and only allow one vote per user and then log
 their IP address as well.
Thats exactly what i am trying. First it will check on $username, if that
passes then it checks on $IP if that passes, allow the vote if not


 There won't be many people who are determined to sway the vote by going
 through the hassle of creating a new user and then voting again. But there
 may be some.
Exactly.

disregard votes which come from the same
 IP address from users who've only signed up minutes before voting.
Here theres a problem because as they sign up they are allowed to vote,
basically when they try to vote and are not signed in they are taken to the
sign up page, after they sign up a contol panel is created for them with a
crapload of functions and they are taken to the voteing screen of the
company they were trying to vote for in the first place.


 While
 they might think that they've beaten the system, you can clearly see from
 your table of users, registration dates, IP address and Voting Times that
 they're bogus. But it's a bit laborious to do this.

It will be too much of a pain in the ass to to that...want something
complicated but simple if you know what i mean.


 Alternatively, once you've stored the first vote from a user in your
 database, let them vote again, give them the 'Thank you for your vote'
 message but disregard it from the server side.
Thats the easy way around it, am doing it the hard way, am sending the user
something like,
you have already voted for this company on date if you would like to see
what you voted on or would like to change you vote click here
Users vote on 7 differient points/conditions.



 They'll think they're getting
 somewhere when in fact they're wasting their time (like those morons you
see
 at pedestrian crossings who stab the button repeatedly, with the belief
that
 it might make the lights change faster).

HEHEHEH happy to know i am not the only one who gets pissed off with them.


 Would anyone really want to frig a forum poll anyway? Surely nobody's that
sad!
Cant explain that right now but believe me its possible when $$ may be
involved.

Cheers,
-Ryan


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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Now THERES an idea, if 2 people are willing to vote am going on the PHP
cruise :-D

Cheers,
-Ryan




 Charge them a thousand dollars for each vote. That should cut down on some
of
 the fraud.


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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jason Wong
On Thursday 25 September 2003 04:03, Ryan A wrote:

 Thats already done, the user has to authenticate his address by clicking on
 the link which contains his $CNO and $random_number
 But the rateing system is for webhosts, and webhosts usually have a catch
 all email address so they can use n number of email addresses

Make the voting process tedious and non-automatable. Eg generate an image with 
some fuzzy characters embedded and ask the voter to enter the letters.

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Its already a bit of a pain in the ass, the user has to login to his email
and confirm his address by clicking on a link that has his $cno and
$random_word before being allowed to vote...unless he/she already has a
mylist account and is logged in.

Cheers,
-Ryan



  Thats already done, the user has to authenticate his address by clicking
on
  the link which contains his $CNO and $random_number
  But the rateing system is for webhosts, and webhosts usually have a
catch
  all email address so they can use n number of email addresses

 Make the voting process tedious and non-automatable. Eg generate an image
with
 some fuzzy characters embedded and ask the voter to enter the letters.

 -- 
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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jason Wong
On Thursday 25 September 2003 05:14, Ryan A wrote:

 Its already a bit of a pain in the ass, the user has to login to his email
 and confirm his address by clicking on a link that has his $cno and
 $random_word before being allowed to vote...unless he/she already has a
 mylist account and is logged in.

Signing up, receiving mail, clicking on a link, can all be automated. Someone 
can just write a script and can vote as fast as you send out mail!

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hey,
Thanks for the suggestion, didnt know it can be so automated.

Can you give me any links for generating blurry images that can be human
identified quickly but not so easy by automation?
Thanks,
-Ryan

 On Thursday 25 September 2003 05:14, Ryan A wrote:

  Its already a bit of a pain in the ass, the user has to login to his
email
  and confirm his address by clicking on a link that has his $cno and
  $random_word before being allowed to vote...unless he/she already has a
  mylist account and is logged in.

 Signing up, receiving mail, clicking on a link, can all be automated.
Someone
 can just write a script and can vote as fast as you send out mail!

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Chris Shiflett
--- Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Can you give me any links for generating blurry images that can be
 human identified quickly but not so easy by automation?

http://www.captcha.net/

Hope that helps.

Chris

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Jason Wong
On Thursday 25 September 2003 05:44, Ryan A wrote:

 Can you give me any links for generating blurry images that can be human
 identified quickly but not so easy by automation?

There's a class in www.phpclasses.org which help you generate such images, 
I've no idea how good it is.

It's pretty straightforward to write your own using the image functions:

1) create a new image

2) set a background colour

3) create some random characters, using random fonts, random colour (limit the 
set of colours to choose from so it doesn't disappear into the background), 
and small amount of random rotation

4) for good measure sprinkle the image liberally with randomly coloured 
pixels.

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hey,
Went there, but the program just generates some clear alpha numeric
images...i want something blurred or distorted like the samples there have
there.

Cheers,
-Ryan

 http://www.captcha.net/

 Hope that helps.

 Chris

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A

Hey,
Tried it...not too good :-(

-Ryan

 On Thursday 25 September 2003 05:44, Ryan A wrote:

  Can you give me any links for generating blurry images that can be human
  identified quickly but not so easy by automation?

 There's a class in www.phpclasses.org which help you generate such images,
 I've no idea how good it is.

 It's pretty straightforward to write your own using the image functions:

 1) create a new image

 2) set a background colour

 3) create some random characters, using random fonts, random colour (limit
the
 set of colours to choose from so it doesn't disappear into the
background),
 and small amount of random rotation

 4) for good measure sprinkle the image liberally with randomly coloured
 pixels.

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Chris Shiflett
--- Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Went there [http://www.captcha.net/], but the program just generates
 some clear alpha numeric images...i want something blurred or
 distorted like the samples there have there.

What program? There are a few there, and they all generate images that are
blurred or distorted as far as I am aware. Yahoo uses ez-gimpy; surely that is
a good enough reason to at least consider it.

Chris

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[PHP] Re: chris-Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Chris Shiflett
--- Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 WHERE?? Can you point me to them?

I had a tough time myself. I just went to this page:

http://www.captcha.net/cgi-bin/ez-gimpy

And, when I view source, I see the following in an HTML comment:

The following versions are available for download:
a href=/ez-gimpy_install.tarEZ-Gimpy/a,
a href=/gimpy_install.tarGimpy/a.

So, I tried this URL:

http://www.captcha.net/ez-gimpy_install.tar

And, it works. Hope that helps.

Chris

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Re: [PHP] Re: chris-Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Chris Shiflett
--- Chris Shiflett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I had a tough time myself. I just went to this page:
 
 http://www.captcha.net/cgi-bin/ez-gimpy

I meant to say that this page has the HTML comment:

http://www.captcha.net/captchas/gimpy/

Chris

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Re: [PHP] Re: chris-Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Ryan A
Hey,
Thanks dude, have downloaded both will see if i understand them now :-D

cheers,
-Ryan


We will slaughter you all! - The Iraqi (Dis)information ministers site
http://MrSahaf.com


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Shiflett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:00 AM
Subject: [PHP] Re: chris-Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic
problem


 --- Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  WHERE?? Can you point me to them?

 I had a tough time myself. I just went to this page:

 http://www.captcha.net/cgi-bin/ez-gimpy

 And, when I view source, I see the following in an HTML comment:

 The following versions are available for download:
 a href=/ez-gimpy_install.tarEZ-Gimpy/a,
 a href=/gimpy_install.tarGimpy/a.

 So, I tried this URL:

 http://www.captcha.net/ez-gimpy_install.tar

 And, it works. Hope that helps.

 Chris

 =
 Become a better Web developer with the HTTP Developer's Handbook
 http://httphandbook.org/

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Re: [PHP] 3 mins of your time please...logic problem

2003-09-24 Thread Curt Zirzow
* Thus wrote Chris Shiflett ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 --- Ryan A [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Went there [http://www.captcha.net/], but the program just generates
  some clear alpha numeric images...i want something blurred or
  distorted like the samples there have there.
 
 What program? There are a few there, and they all generate images that are
 blurred or distorted as far as I am aware. Yahoo uses ez-gimpy; surely that is
 a good enough reason to at least consider it.

Ok, I coulda swore there was a download link there for ez-gimp
earlier today. Did we drive to much traffic there? lol

Curt
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