RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-16 Thread Jay Blanchard
[snip]
... a lot ...
[/snip]

As someone who has put together conferences before and has/is/will be
attempting to do a conference like this in the future I can say that for
day pricing it may be slightly high, but just slightly. A conference is
an expensive thing, usually offset by sponsors to a degree (if you can
get them). You have facilities, meals, 'talent', printing, equipment
rental, etc. If your cost is $50k then you need 100 participants at $500
to break even.

I have fished a PHP event in Texas around for some time now, and have
about 30 folks who are interested in attending. I have done as much as I
can to keep the costs low so that the attendance fees can be kept low.
But the $50k a year programmer (who loses $10 or more of that to taxes)
with a family can ill afford to spend more than a couple of hundred
bucks all together attend. Most companies now are tighening their
budgets and not paying for these kinds of things.  

The unfortunate side of this is that many do not get introduced to new
items, techniques, products, methods, etc. not to mention the two or
three days of being with folks who are in the same professional peer
group.

My .02

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RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-16 Thread Dan Joseph
Hi,

I know a couple people who put together a Con once.  It wasn't a large one,
it only took up one hotel conference room, and the budget was kept low.  The
least he could sell tickets for was $250-$300 (somewhere in there) each.
That was without him turning a profit.

Now, take into account a con like this one wtih keynote speakers (most
likely paid), a large staff, a larger room (and probably multiple rooms),
more food, more drinks, more advertising, and $495.  That really isn't that
bad.  Expensive yet, but you have to ask yourself if the value is worth it
for you.

-Dan Joseph

 -Original Message-
 From: Chris Sherwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 6:19 PM
 To: Dan Anderson; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing



 Yea its not bad if you dont have a life outside of programming and/or
 computers

 if you have kids or other responsibilities then all of a sudden
 500$ becomes
 a very large issue as thats a months groceries or what not...

 heh yea the average salary is 50K but then when the government
 takes 40% (if
 your canadian) that is not a whole lot


   The pricing seems insane, and geared towards people with lots of
   spare money...
  ::snip::
   but I'm not going to shell out $495 (the cheapest non-student
 
  If you consider the average salary for a computer programmer is probably
  $40k - $50k (at least in the US) this is not insane.  (Heck, it's less
  then a weeks pay -- even with the plane tickets).  I assume this covers
  hotel rooms (pricey), food (pricey), speakers (very pricey), etc.
 
  -Dan
 
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RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-16 Thread Dan Joseph
Hi,
 
  at least I dont live in a police state.

I sure do..  Its a joke too..

 I hate the patriot act.

You don't like illegal search and seizures?  What's wrong with you? :)

-Dan Joseph

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RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-16 Thread Robert Cummings
I don't know, the Ottawa Linux Symposium runs in Ottawa Canada each
year. They usually run about 5 days and rent multiple rooms. The cost to
non-students (this year): $325 CAD ($217 USD). That's less than half the
price of PHP|Con.

Cheers,
Rob.


On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 09:31, Dan Joseph wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I know a couple people who put together a Con once.  It wasn't a large one,
 it only took up one hotel conference room, and the budget was kept low.  The
 least he could sell tickets for was $250-$300 (somewhere in there) each.
 That was without him turning a profit.
 
 Now, take into account a con like this one wtih keynote speakers (most
 likely paid), a large staff, a larger room (and probably multiple rooms),
 more food, more drinks, more advertising, and $495.  That really isn't that
 bad.  Expensive yet, but you have to ask yourself if the value is worth it
 for you.
 
 -Dan Joseph

-- 
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| Worlds of Carnage - http://www.wocmud.org   |
:-:
| Come visit a world of myth and legend where |
| fantastical creatures come to life and the  |
| stuff of nightmares grasp for your soul.|
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RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-16 Thread Dan Joseph
Hi,

Probably depends on location.  My friend's was in Chicago, so everything was
a little more expensive.

-Dan Joseph

 -Original Message-
 From: Robert Cummings [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 9:39 AM
 To: Dan Joseph
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing


 I don't know, the Ottawa Linux Symposium runs in Ottawa Canada each
 year. They usually run about 5 days and rent multiple rooms. The cost to
 non-students (this year): $325 CAD ($217 USD). That's less than half the
 price of PHP|Con.

 Cheers,
 Rob.


 On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 09:31, Dan Joseph wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I know a couple people who put together a Con once.  It wasn't
 a large one,
  it only took up one hotel conference room, and the budget was
 kept low.  The
  least he could sell tickets for was $250-$300 (somewhere in there) each.
  That was without him turning a profit.
 
  Now, take into account a con like this one wtih keynote speakers (most
  likely paid), a large staff, a larger room (and probably
 multiple rooms),
  more food, more drinks, more advertising, and $495.  That
 really isn't that
  bad.  Expensive yet, but you have to ask yourself if the value
 is worth it
  for you.
 
  -Dan Joseph

 --
 .-.
 | Worlds of Carnage - http://www.wocmud.org   |
 :-:
 | Come visit a world of myth and legend where |
 | fantastical creatures come to life and the  |
 | stuff of nightmares grasp for your soul.|
 `-'


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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Dan Anderson
 The pricing seems insane, and geared towards people with lots of 
 spare money...
::snip::
 but I'm not going to shell out $495 (the cheapest non-student 

If you consider the average salary for a computer programmer is probably
$40k - $50k (at least in the US) this is not insane.  (Heck, it's less
then a weeks pay -- even with the plane tickets).  I assume this covers
hotel rooms (pricey), food (pricey), speakers (very pricey), etc.

-Dan

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Chris Sherwood

Yea its not bad if you dont have a life outside of programming and/or
computers

if you have kids or other responsibilities then all of a sudden 500$ becomes
a very large issue as thats a months groceries or what not...

heh yea the average salary is 50K but then when the government takes 40% (if
your canadian) that is not a whole lot


  The pricing seems insane, and geared towards people with lots of
  spare money...
 ::snip::
  but I'm not going to shell out $495 (the cheapest non-student

 If you consider the average salary for a computer programmer is probably
 $40k - $50k (at least in the US) this is not insane.  (Heck, it's less
 then a weeks pay -- even with the plane tickets).  I assume this covers
 hotel rooms (pricey), food (pricey), speakers (very pricey), etc.

 -Dan

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RE: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Roger B.A. Klorese
 Yea its not bad if you dont have a life outside of programming and/or
 computers
 
 if you have kids or other responsibilities then all of a 
 sudden 500$ becomes
 a very large issue as thats a months groceries or what not...
 
 heh yea the average salary is 50K but then when the 
 government takes 40% (if
 your canadian) that is not a whole lot

I'm sure that, like most conferences and trainings, the assumption is that
people will attend who are either employed in the subject area -- in which
case they need to get their employers to ante up -- or are independent
contractors in the subject area -- in which case they need to treat it as a
legitimate business expense for tax purposes.  It's not a friends of PHP
sci-fi con...

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Chris Shiflett
--- Dan Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 speakers (very pricey), etc.

Unless I'm missing out on all the gold (which is a possibility), speakers
usually get a very modest honorarium and their expenses paid. I can't imagine
that speakers are the most significant cost of a conference.

Chris

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Dan Anderson
 Yea its not bad if you dont have a life outside of programming and/or
 computers
Well most professionals who would go to this conference -- IMHO -- would
be doing it because it would be worth while.  For instance, I considered
going because if it reduced the time it takes for me to develop software
by just 1% it would more then pay itself off.  

 if you have kids or other responsibilities then all of a sudden 500$ becomes
 a very large issue as thats a months groceries or what not...
Well there are a number of things to consider.  It is a lot about what
you value and how you manage your money.  (Pick up a copy of one of the
Rich Dad's series in your local library / bookstore to see what I mean).

 heh yea the average salary is 50K but then when the government takes 40% (if
 your canadian) that is not a whole lot
(5 - (.40 * 5) == 3)

That's a heckuva lot of money.  Especially when you consider you
canadians have a cradle to grave socialist system that covers major
expenses for us from the US like healthcare.  Of course, I don't know
your particular situation.  What would be reasonable to you?

-Dan

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Dan Anderson
 Unless I'm missing out on all the gold (which is a possibility),
speakers
 usually get a very modest honorarium and their expenses paid. I can't imagine
 that speakers are the most significant cost of a conference.

Well it does depend on the fame (or infamy) of the speaker.  If you want
Bill Clinton to speak for you be prepared to cough up a couple hundred
grand.  If you want somebody else well::shrugs::

But remember that all expenses paid part.  Let's say a meal costs $5 a
person (to be cheap).  That's not a lot of money.  But rooms can cost
upwards of $100 a night (probably at least $60 even with the discount). 
So that plus food + everything else for the speaker can add up.

Of course, I haven't seen the finances of this conference.  But I would
suspect that $495 is a reasonable price.

-Dan

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Chris Sherwood
  Yea its not bad if you dont have a life outside of programming and/or
  computers
 Well most professionals who would go to this conference -- IMHO -- would
 be doing it because it would be worth while.  For instance, I considered
 going because if it reduced the time it takes for me to develop software
 by just 1% it would more then pay itself off.

lol that I agree with

  if you have kids or other responsibilities then all of a sudden 500$
becomes
  a very large issue as thats a months groceries or what not...
 Well there are a number of things to consider.  It is a lot about what
 you value and how you manage your money.  (Pick up a copy of one of the
 Rich Dad's series in your local library / bookstore to see what I mean).

ah like with 4 kids I have nothing better to do than run down and grab a
book and evaluate my parenting skills.

never mind keeping up with the current advances in techniques and technology

  heh yea the average salary is 50K but then when the government takes 40%
(if
  your canadian) that is not a whole lot
 (5 - (.40 * 5) == 3)

umm I take it you dont have kids and only pay part of the rent or what not?

lets see rent is 1200/mo
1200 * 12 = 14400
and umm socialist system.. umm where you been hiding?
at least I dont live in a police state.
 That's a heckuva lot of money.  Especially when you consider you
 canadians have a cradle to grave socialist system that covers major
 expenses for us from the US like healthcare.  Of course, I don't know
 your particular situation.  What would be reasonable to you?

 -Dan



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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Curt Zirzow
* Thus wrote Chris Sherwood ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

 and umm socialist system.. umm where you been hiding?
 at least I dont live in a police state.

ouch :)

Curt
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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Dan Anderson
 ah like with 4 kids I have nothing better to do than run down and grab a
 book and evaluate my parenting skills.
It's not about parenting but about money management.  It's pretty cool
and shows you how to minimize taxes (so the govn't gets less then 40%).

 umm I take it you dont have kids and only pay part of the rent or what not?

No kids.  Full time programmer.  Putting as much away as possible and
hoping to retire at 40.

 lets see rent is 1200/mo
 1200 * 12 = 14400
With 4 kids I can understand that.

 and umm socialist system.. umm where you been hiding?
I pay for health care and other things out of pocket.  Socialism in the
form of government handouts should not be confused with communism.  

 at least I dont live in a police state.
I hate the patriot act.

-Dan

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Jeremy Johnstone
Actually the $495 is the conference fee only... It does not include the
$160 a night for the hotel room (price of the hotel the conference is
at), or food, or transportation. That is just your ticket into the
conference. Factor in everything else, and your easily up to
$1500-$2000. Using the average salary which was posted in this thread,
that is about a months pay after taxes for an average programmer.

Jeremy

On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 17:12, Dan Anderson wrote:
  The pricing seems insane, and geared towards people with lots of 
  spare money...
 ::snip::
  but I'm not going to shell out $495 (the cheapest non-student 
 
 If you consider the average salary for a computer programmer is probably
 $40k - $50k (at least in the US) this is not insane.  (Heck, it's less
 then a weeks pay -- even with the plane tickets).  I assume this covers
 hotel rooms (pricey), food (pricey), speakers (very pricey), etc.
 
 -Dan

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread John W. Holmes
Jeremy Johnstone wrote:

Actually the $495 is the conference fee only... It does not include the
$160 a night for the hotel room (price of the hotel the conference is
at), or food, or transportation. That is just your ticket into the
conference. Factor in everything else, and your easily up to
$1500-$2000. Using the average salary which was posted in this thread,
that is about a months pay after taxes for an average programmer.
What are you talking about? You sleep in your car and have a hot plate 
running off the cigarette lighter to make Raman noodles! Bring extra 
spray deodorant.

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Re: [PHP] PHP|Con insane pricing

2003-09-15 Thread Jeremy Johnstone
Let me also say, that I fully think their price is fair. It's right in
line with most other conferences (if not cheaper). I was just clarifying
that the $495 price is not all inclusive. I wish I would be able to
attend, but unfortunately money is tight right now for me, and I can't
afford it. I most likely will be speaking at the next one (assuming they
accept my submission when it comes time) and money won't be an issue. 

Jeremy

P.S. - In regards to the email below, if you did that you would have to
factor in extra gas money, and $10 a day for WIFI access from the hotel.

On Mon, 2003-09-15 at 21:23, John W. Holmes wrote:
 Jeremy Johnstone wrote:
 
  Actually the $495 is the conference fee only... It does not include the
  $160 a night for the hotel room (price of the hotel the conference is
  at), or food, or transportation. That is just your ticket into the
  conference. Factor in everything else, and your easily up to
  $1500-$2000. Using the average salary which was posted in this thread,
  that is about a months pay after taxes for an average programmer.
 
 What are you talking about? You sleep in your car and have a hot plate 
 running off the cigarette lighter to make Raman noodles! Bring extra 
 spray deodorant.
 
 -- 
 ---John Holmes...
 
 Amazon Wishlist: www.amazon.com/o/registry/3BEXC84AB3A5E/
 
 php|architect: The Magazine for PHP Professionals  www.phparch.com

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