Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
Hi! First of all, thanks for the input! What's the matter with re-using the code and charging the same rate for it? You're a business, and you're supposed to make money. I currently charge by the hour, but I'm trying whereever possible to move away from hourly rates into fixed price services. Why? Perhaps I stated my views a bit rashly. I'm not of the opinion that it is wrong to re-use code, merely that I was wondering how to specify the hourly rate if doing so. Seeing now (even though I couldn't say I have large enough control group ;-) ) that it is common to re-use and charge as normal, a) The client knows exactly what to expect in terms of price and result b) I don't spend half my days quoting every last detail of a job c) I have the opportunity to re-use code over and over, making a PROFIT, rather than braking even all the time I totally agree with (a) and (b), but what about (c)? Is it that hard to make a profit if one actually has to put some work into it? I.e. do you consider PHP/db development to be a large competition-driven field (within the larger field of software/script dev)? Copyright is the simple answer, but it needs to be a) observed by your clients b) enforced by you when not observed by clients Yes, I agree. But for (b), how can I enforce it since PHP code resides on servers. My scenario is this: I develop scripts for the (aforementioned web designers), cooperation ends and we go separate paths. Now how do I enforce my copyright when I have no insight into their other projects nor the web servers they work with? You can always compile your scripts, and supply them with compiled (encoded) products, rather than source scripts. This of course would depend on the copyright agreement you have with your clients. This is actually totally new to me. Compiling scripts, storing the (encoded) products on the server. What are the formats? Standards? Web servers / RDBM's that recognize these formats? There's no decent answer to that -- there's soo many factors to take into consideration, like the market, the economic environment, your skills, your productivity, your client's budget, etc etc. The only accurate answer is twice as much as half. Yeah, I know I had that answer coming. *laugh* Guess I'll have to continue sifting through the market in my area. Compiling with Zend encoder or similar, as stated above. Zend encoder. Okay! Though it partially answers my above question about encoding scripts, I would be grateful to get some more pointers on the technical nuts and bolts... (even though I probably can just start using the Zend encoder - always interested in learning more). You obviously aren't confident working with these people, so consider NOT working for them. No can do. The project is much to interesting and the social engineering implied by it is a hilarious experience. Alea iacta est! Thank you for the valuable input! VPeO -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 09:45 PM, Video Populares et Optimates wrote: What's the matter with re-using the code and charging the same rate for it? You're a business, and you're supposed to make money. I currently charge by the hour, but I'm trying whereever possible to move away from hourly rates into fixed price services. Why? Perhaps I stated my views a bit rashly. I'm not of the opinion that it is wrong to re-use code, merely that I was wondering how to specify the hourly rate if doing so. Seeing now (even though I couldn't say I have large enough control group ;-) ) that it is common to re-use and charge as normal, I wouldn't say it's common practice, but it makes good business sense to refine your tools to the point where they can be reused over and over with a lot less new code for each resale. a) The client knows exactly what to expect in terms of price and result b) I don't spend half my days quoting every last detail of a job c) I have the opportunity to re-use code over and over, making a PROFIT, rather than braking even all the time I totally agree with (a) and (b), but what about (c)? Is it that hard to make a profit if one actually has to put some work into it? I.e. do you consider PHP/db development to be a large competition-driven field (within the larger field of software/script dev)? I don't understand the question. Copyright is the simple answer, but it needs to be a) observed by your clients b) enforced by you when not observed by clients Yes, I agree. But for (b), how can I enforce it since PHP code resides on servers. My scenario is this: I develop scripts for the (aforementioned web designers), cooperation ends and we go separate paths. Now how do I enforce my copyright when I have no insight into their other projects nor the web servers they work with? I can't answer that -- you need to talk to lawyers and seek legal advice. All I know is that copyright laws are there to protect. The catch is that enforcing this protection usually takes money. You can always compile your scripts, and supply them with compiled (encoded) products, rather than source scripts. This of course would depend on the copyright agreement you have with your clients. This is actually totally new to me. Compiling scripts, storing the (encoded) products on the server. What are the formats? Standards? Web servers / RDBM's that recognize these formats? [snip] Compiling with Zend encoder or similar, as stated above. Zend encoder. Okay! Though it partially answers my above question about encoding scripts, I would be grateful to get some more pointers on the technical nuts and bolts... (even though I probably can just start using the Zend encoder - always interested in learning more). Encoded scripts can run on virtually any server running PHP, using the optimiser (?). Of course, you could read about it all on Zend.com. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
A few suggestions here, from my experience. I offer a variety of computer services freelance, and have been focusing on building my web development side of things. Customers love flat rates, but you WILL eat the time WHEN, not if, you go over. I offer flat rates for mostly HTML web design services. The client gets x number of pages and y number hours photography and we meet in the beginning and in the end. The client approves the site and I'm done. Any changes, unless I personally feel I made a stupid mistake, are billed according to my update policy. For PHP pages, I don't offer flat rates. I can give an estimate of the time it will take, but no more than that. My absolute minimum hourly rate is $35/hour and I'm located in Southwestern Washington State, USA. When I do work, it's a premium service. I don't claim to be the world's best PHP coder, but all my pages are reasonably written, execute quickly, and are quite secure. My big thing is that I make everything work, and work smoothly. I have a knack for building features that make everything easy to use, as simple as possible, yet extremely powerful. I write online catalogs that the owners can update and upload pictures and everything. I create online scheduling systems that are simple and straightforward. All this is perfectly integrated and easy to use. So as far as code issues go, well, most of the code isn't reusable without modification. I don't usually write a lot of comments, so that makes it doubly hard to see what's going on. The part that really makes me feel better about misuse of my code is that my clients like and trust me. They wouldn't switch to another person or company, and they lack the skills to work on PHP themselves. For simplicity's sake, I just leave source code on their sites. The only exception is a new area I'm working on: writing code that is licensed. I'm developing a church/club/organization database with PHP MySQL. I'll license it to people for their use only and include limitations on how many people can be in the database through PHP. This code I will compile so it can't easily be changed or modified for reuse. I also have a few other projects like this in the works. I'm still learning about the best ways to do all this, but I think you might find what I've learned so far helpful. Galen P. Zink Computer Consulting Web Design (360) 609-2617 http://zinkconsulting.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
Video, et al -- I've been an independent SysAdmin for about seven years, but have only been doing independent programming for a couple, so others will certainly have more coding guidance and experience than I. All I can definitely say is that I'm still working on the knack of properly estimating my time! :-/ What I can say, though, is that if for any reason you're not comfortable with the folks with/for whom you will work then it's probably better to not or at least best to get it in writing and get as much as you can up front. Take the extra time to work out a contract that covers the sorts of services you'll provide (I would say that it shouldn't bother to include specifics of a particular bid; submit that separately as a quote or estimate instead), how and when payments are due (by check or other and terms like net 15, net 30, upon recepit) and what happens if they aren't (grace period, late fees, interest, ...), perhaps what happens if you can't complete your end, and who owns the finished product (unless that's declared to be specified in each quote). Unfortunately, it's generally true that if you can trust your partners (or clients) then you don't need a contract and if you can't then even the best one won't help you, so that gets you back to the get it up front part. For small jobs I require the full payment up front; for large jobs I do half up front and half upon completion. For hourly estimate jobs (or long-term hourly jobs like a 4-month one I did late this summer) I submit semiweekly invoices as well as, if desired, time sheets outlining what I did when and sometimes require a starter payment up front. All of my invoices have been net 15 but I'm trying to move to upon receipt :-) and have done so for any sys admin calls that I make. So that brings us to your licensing questions. Some of them may be alleviated by their not being able to do anything with the PHP code because they are not coders; they'd have to call you to make any changes for another site anyway. But otherwise it should be covered in your quote (which will clearly outline everything you're to do -- which is, by the way, just like a contract, for the benefit of both both at the beginning and the end), and you can reasonably argue that code written to be suitable for reuse takes more time and costs more. And, finally, down to pricing... I estimate my time based on the plan that I'd write everything from scratch, since some if it will be and other parts of it might still require some modification. That then gives me a number that I can perhaps adjust to come up with a quote. If you're working on a straight hourly basis, then you might be able to either bill for some or all of the hours it WOULD take you to write the module you'll pull out of your toolbox or bill a higher rate for implementing these library modules of yours. I tend to lean toward the former, and it's been OK so far (but, admittedly, I don't have much of a library!). Another thing that helps is to figure out your client's budget and how they'll like to spend it -- not so much for the purposes of sucking it dry :-) but to see things from their point of view. An example from the SA world is a client that wanted a hundred machines updated and expected to pay someone about $5k to someone who could do one per hour, or about $50/hr. The guy who got the job confirmed that they were happy with paying $50 per *machine* and quoted the job -- and then invested about 20 hours of his own time in building and testing a distribution server which he then used to rebuild the 100 machines in another 20 hours. He did the work in less time (and vastly less from the client's perspective) and everyone was happy even though he got paid a higher rate :-) Just what sort of job opportunity is this? Will you be an hourly employee who does whatever he is told, or a completely independent contractor implementing something to a set of general specs, or something in between? That goes a long way, too, toward your determination of who should own and control what. What's a proper pay? Those spending nearly always think it's lower than those receiving :-) As a general rule, if this isn't either a permanent job or a long-term contract (in which case you shouldn't be worrying about code ownership, IMHO), you need to bill for about half of the year to make your desired annual target because the other half will be spent on training, practicing, and hunting. Whether you apply that on a code licensing basis or an hourly work rate basis, make sure that you'll make enough to be around later! HTH HAND best of luck! :-D -- David T-G * There is too much animal courage in (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage. (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health http://justpickone.org/davidtg/ Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
Hello Video, Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 1:04:34 AM, you wrote: VPeO Now, how do you charge your services? Do you do it on a VPeO time-slot basis (seems kind of awkard to me since much PHP code VPeO can be reused a l o t!) or do you do it on the basis of the size VPeO of projects and whether new code has to be developed etc etc? That is for you to decide and your client to agree with. Some will prefer a fixed-cost project, others prefer time sheets. The fact you are re-using code isn't a bad thing, I mean, you wrote it in the first place right? and you're not a charity.. so what if you manage to save yourself a few hours :) VPeO control the PHP code that I develop. How do I make sure that I'm VPeO not just used once for a project and thereafter thrown on the VPeO trashbin, i.e. they take the code and keep using it for many Get a good contract. Unless they'll allow PHP script encoding (Zend Encoder, etc) on their server, you have no other choice. VPeO And what is a proper pay? Depends on country, location within country, age, experience, etc etc etc. VPeO obfuscators... but let's get real. They don't come close to VPeO hiding code (from these web designers and web admins.) as VPeO compiled software is hidden from end users. So compile it :) -- Best regards, Richardmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
Turck MMCache is a free optimizer/encoder. There is a free web based front end to the encoding part of it available at http://phpcoder.shadonet.com. You can find Turck MMCache at http://turck-mmcache.sourceforge.net It runs on Windows, Linux, BSD, and most other platforms and works with PHP 4 and 5. That said you should have a discussion with the person making the job offer and get a good contract as others have said. If they want to use the code in other projects without paying you each time ask for a higher rate. Also make sure that you maintain the rights to use the code you develop in other projects. I do work on a per project basis, I base my quote on the number of hours I expect it will take me then add 15% I've learned over the years to estimate my time well, if you are just starting you will either want to quote entirely per project or increase the time by more than 15% (most newer people underquote for fear of coming in high and wind up eating it). If you are quoting based on time you also want to come in slightly ahead of schedule, not so much to make them think that you intentionally over quoted but enough that it saves them some money and makes you look good. Jason Jason Richard Davey wrote: Hello Video, Tuesday, December 2, 2003, 1:04:34 AM, you wrote: VPeO Now, how do you charge your services? Do you do it on a VPeO time-slot basis (seems kind of awkard to me since much PHP code VPeO can be reused a l o t!) or do you do it on the basis of the size VPeO of projects and whether new code has to be developed etc etc? That is for you to decide and your client to agree with. Some will prefer a fixed-cost project, others prefer time sheets. The fact you are re-using code isn't a bad thing, I mean, you wrote it in the first place right? and you're not a charity.. so what if you manage to save yourself a few hours :) VPeO control the PHP code that I develop. How do I make sure that I'm VPeO not just used once for a project and thereafter thrown on the VPeO trashbin, i.e. they take the code and keep using it for many Get a good contract. Unless they'll allow PHP script encoding (Zend Encoder, etc) on their server, you have no other choice. VPeO And what is a proper pay? Depends on country, location within country, age, experience, etc etc etc. VPeO obfuscators... but let's get real. They don't come close to VPeO hiding code (from these web designers and web admins.) as VPeO compiled software is hidden from end users. So compile it :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 12:04 PM, Video Populares et Optimates wrote: Ahoy! I'm sitting here, pondering on a problem that has just occurred to me. Having a short though intensive period of experience with PHP, I'm now in the process of being swallowed up by a group of web designers. That is, I've been offered a job opportunity. Now, how do you charge your services? Do you do it on a time-slot basis (seems kind of awkard to me since much PHP code can be reused a l o t!) or do you do it on the basis of the size of projects and whether new code has to be developed etc etc? What's the matter with re-using the code and charging the same rate for it? You're a business, and you're supposed to make money. I currently charge by the hour, but I'm trying whereever possible to move away from hourly rates into fixed price services. Why? a) The client knows exactly what to expect in terms of price and result b) I don't spend half my days quoting every last detail of a job c) I have the opportunity to re-use code over and over, making a PROFIT, rather than braking even all the time Another question is: Since they are the owners of the web servers (also in control of the web admins.), they effectively control the PHP code that I develop. How do I make sure that I'm not just used once for a project and thereafter thrown on the trashbin, i.e. they take the code and keep using it for many other projects without my knowledge. As far as I'm concerned, a proper pay should be for each project that my PHP code goes into. Or do you not agree? Very thankful for your opinions here! Copyright is the simple answer, but it needs to be a) observed by your clients b) enforced by you when not observed by clients You can always compile your scripts, and supply them with compiled (encoded) products, rather than source scripts. This of course would depend on the copyright agreement you have with your clients. And what is a proper pay? There's no decent answer to that -- there's soo many factors to take into consideration, like the market, the economic environment, your skills, your productivity, your client's budget, etc etc. The only accurate answer is twice as much as half. I would really like to get some tips on how to specify a partnership with these web designers. I know about code obfuscators... but let's get real. They don't come close to hiding code (from these web designers and web admins.) as compiled software is hidden from end users. Compiling with Zend encoder or similar, as stated above. Perhaps someone here remembers my last post - which was about security of PHP code (from viewing and unauthorized usage). Now, I'm kind of put against the wall here. I want to get to it, i.e. get to the work. But after some bad experiences *grunt*, I'm not willing to get literally squished by blood sucking vampires (*clearing my throat*) later on. You obviously aren't confident working with these people, so consider NOT working for them. Justin French -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Working as a PHP/database developer..
Hello, As a development company who has been profitable for 6 years I suggest the following: 1. There are no fixed fees. All time will be billed. 2. Put everything in writing. If they want you to change the f to F make them put it in writing. 3. If you do have a flat fee for something... make it something you already have code for or have a procedure for. Even then, make sure you have a test case for the procedure. If the test case fails it is time and materials. 4. Require a downpayment of at least 30% of the total ESTIMATE. Our estimates are usually something like: 15,000 - 22,000 7500.00 (we do 50% down) would be required to begin work. When then hit the 15k they have to pay up to the 15k. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake On Tue, 2 Dec 2003, Justin French wrote: On Tuesday, December 2, 2003, at 12:04 PM, Video Populares et Optimates wrote: Ahoy! I'm sitting here, pondering on a problem that has just occurred to me. Having a short though intensive period of experience with PHP, I'm now in the process of being swallowed up by a group of web designers. That is, I've been offered a job opportunity. Now, how do you charge your services? Do you do it on a time-slot basis (seems kind of awkard to me since much PHP code can be reused a l o t!) or do you do it on the basis of the size of projects and whether new code has to be developed etc etc? What's the matter with re-using the code and charging the same rate for it? You're a business, and you're supposed to make money. I currently charge by the hour, but I'm trying whereever possible to move away from hourly rates into fixed price services. Why? a) The client knows exactly what to expect in terms of price and result b) I don't spend half my days quoting every last detail of a job c) I have the opportunity to re-use code over and over, making a PROFIT, rather than braking even all the time Another question is: Since they are the owners of the web servers (also in control of the web admins.), they effectively control the PHP code that I develop. How do I make sure that I'm not just used once for a project and thereafter thrown on the trashbin, i.e. they take the code and keep using it for many other projects without my knowledge. As far as I'm concerned, a proper pay should be for each project that my PHP code goes into. Or do you not agree? Very thankful for your opinions here! Copyright is the simple answer, but it needs to be a) observed by your clients b) enforced by you when not observed by clients You can always compile your scripts, and supply them with compiled (encoded) products, rather than source scripts. This of course would depend on the copyright agreement you have with your clients. And what is a proper pay? There's no decent answer to that -- there's soo many factors to take into consideration, like the market, the economic environment, your skills, your productivity, your client's budget, etc etc. The only accurate answer is twice as much as half. I would really like to get some tips on how to specify a partnership with these web designers. I know about code obfuscators... but let's get real. They don't come close to hiding code (from these web designers and web admins.) as compiled software is hidden from end users. Compiling with Zend encoder or similar, as stated above. Perhaps someone here remembers my last post - which was about security of PHP code (from viewing and unauthorized usage). Now, I'm kind of put against the wall here. I want to get to it, i.e. get to the work. But after some bad experiences *grunt*, I'm not willing to get literally squished by blood sucking vampires (*clearing my throat*) later on. You obviously aren't confident working with these people, so consider NOT working for them. Justin French -- Co-Founder Command Prompt, Inc. The wheel's spinning but the hamster's dead -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
