Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
On 2022-01-19 16:16, Matt Graham via PLUG-discuss wrote: On 2022-01-19 11:44, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: On 2022-01-07 20:43, Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss wrote: then got back into programming, because it was a "thing" to automate networks. It's now my full time job, and I enjoy it a ton. The network to code slack is full of network engineers who have become that new hybrid. Sorry if that doesn't help from the opposite direction! As a PHP developer what do you suggest I learn about automation? And do I really need to learn another language? Seems a lot is being done in PHP. "Automation" is kind of vague here. A more precise definition of what I have usually seen is "setting up a new web server exactly like one we already have." Or potentially "building a new Docker image out of the latest code in branch A of github repository B, then deploying that image to Elastic Beanstalk, every time someone changes branch A." But yes, you will probably need to learn whatever language the scripts that run whatever they're automating is written in. Ok, Thanks for the insight!! I think someone suggested Python. Was it Python? And why Python? Is it better than PHP for server automation? The answer is probably that python is currently more fashionable than PHP. Seems some language is always more fashionable that PHP. Some say it is not a real language. I don't get it. I love PHP - the entire LAMP stack + Funny thing is a ton of web apps were created using PHP/MySQL. Anything Turing-complete can be used to run scripts. I wouldn't even call it automation, but several projects at work have deploy.sh in the root directory. Did something pass code review and get merged? Push it to QA by doing "./deploy.sh qa". Did it pass QA? Push it to production with "./deploy.sh prod". (Mostly, this just saves a little time typing.) Ok Also, it's good to have a backup plan to run things manually if necessary. The latest AWS outage made it impossible for us to deploy new code to one project at all, because the automated CI process attached to it requires specific parts of AWS in the us-west region to be up and working. Fortunately, we could wait a couple of hours. Thanks for your feedback! -- Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress There is no Darkness in Eternity But only Light too dim for us to see. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
On 2022-01-19 11:44, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: On 2022-01-07 20:43, Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss wrote: then got back into programming, because it was a "thing" to automate networks. It's now my full time job, and I enjoy it a ton. The network to code slack is full of network engineers who have become that new hybrid. Sorry if that doesn't help from the opposite direction! As a PHP developer what do you suggest I learn about automation? And do I really need to learn another language? Seems a lot is being done in PHP. "Automation" is kind of vague here. A more precise definition of what I have usually seen is "setting up a new web server exactly like one we already have." Or potentially "building a new Docker image out of the latest code in branch A of github repository B, then deploying that image to Elastic Beanstalk, every time someone changes branch A." But yes, you will probably need to learn whatever language the scripts that run whatever they're automating is written in. I think someone suggested Python. Was it Python? And why Python? Is it better than PHP for server automation? The answer is probably that python is currently more fashionable than PHP. Anything Turing-complete can be used to run scripts. I wouldn't even call it automation, but several projects at work have deploy.sh in the root directory. Did something pass code review and get merged? Push it to QA by doing "./deploy.sh qa". Did it pass QA? Push it to production with "./deploy.sh prod". (Mostly, this just saves a little time typing.) Also, it's good to have a backup plan to run things manually if necessary. The latest AWS outage made it impossible for us to deploy new code to one project at all, because the automated CI process attached to it requires specific parts of AWS in the us-west region to be up and working. Fortunately, we could wait a couple of hours. -- Crow202 Blog: http://crow202.org/wordpress There is no Darkness in Eternity But only Light too dim for us to see. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
On 2022-01-09 23:53, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote: Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 07 Jan 2022 17:06:27 -0700 He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server automation? I think Python 3 is the language for *everybody* to know. It's easy enough that most people know it, it's got a standard library so complete that you can do almost anything with just Python 3 and its standard library. And when you need something special, there's plenty of that too. Nowadays, I wouldn't be caught in any profession not knowing Python. I bet carpenters, Uber drivers, lawyers and network admins of all stripe can gain from it. Interesting perspective. I'm a PHP developer... Do I really need to learn another language? What kinds of things do you see that need to be automated? I see all kinds of stuff in PHP. Plesk and ISPConfig. I was contacted by a guy who was running two metal manufacturing businesses about his PHP/MySql system that runs both manufacturing plants. Interestingly enough he was running it on shared hosting. I'm very interested in your thoughts on why Python and what might be automated on a web hosting server(s), network, etc. Thanks!! SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
On 2022-01-07 20:43, Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss wrote: I'm in the opposite realm - was a programmer and kind of an admin (glorified script kiddie?), went into networking, and then got back into programming, because it was a "thing" to automate networks. It's now my full time job, and I enjoy it a ton. The network to code slack is full of network engineers who have become that new hybrid. Sorry if that doesn't help from the opposite direction! Ok, so I am running a home LAMP server + Bind9 + Postfix + Dovecot... I got lucky... I still have a ton to learn. As a PHP developer what do you suggest I learn about automation? And do I really need to learn another language. Seems a lot is being done in PHP. I think someone suggested Python. Was it Python? And why Python? Is it better than PHP for server automation. I think there are several guys on AZPHP that work for a large hosting provider and I think they are creating automation with PHP/Laravel ... not sure exactly what they are doing. - Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 7:57 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote: - - - With the whole transition to libera.chat for irc and taking some time off from work, I've taken to hanging out there a bit, and this is a common thing I'm seeing in the #networking chat. I'm seeing a lot of devs showing up in #networking asking for hosting/sysadmin stuff lots, ala "how to make apache do x", or "how do I automate my servers", which I find weird as that's sysadmin stuff normally (to me). Oddly enough it's a pretty diverse crowd of folks that are kinda hybrids, done networking, done sysadmin, some are php/web devs, etc, but lots of system-centric stuff so it tends to work out for info seekers. I suspect if I went into #sysadmin or like, they'd know nothing of networking, but #networking tends to come from diverse enough roots they do this stuff too, or did at one point at least. Moral is, there's a lot of crossover these days, and folks need to know some dev, some sysadmin, and some networking. The line blurs, but people can't just be like "well, I only do mssql or active directory" anymore, they're replaceable with shell scripts. I've done unix/linux, some dev, some dba, some windoze, everything between along with a strong focus and experience in networking, and it's paid dividends as I figure out what others don't as a result. Comparing to the OSI model of networking, I work mostly layer 1-7 up, but most dev/app/sysadmins work layer 7 down, and really have no idea below around layer 5 or so, much to their detriment. Best these days to be well versed across the board to some extent. Take a ccna class online, even if you don't get the cert, you'll probably understand things a lot more to make your life easier. -mb On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:11 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: Hi, I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and maybe that is not what he is talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types of jobs can they get? He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. Your Thoughts? Thanks!! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
On 2022-01-07 17:57, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote: With the whole transition to libera.chat for irc and taking some time off from work, I've taken to hanging out there a bit, and this is a common thing I'm seeing in the #networking chat. I'm seeing a lot of devs showing up in #networking asking for hosting/sysadmin stuff lots, ala "how to make apache do x", or "how do I automate my servers", Seems asking "how to make apache do x" is more of an Apache config question. Not a straight up programming skill per se and not programming either? what kind of "how do I automate my servers" are you seeing. I am a PHP developer so hosting automation is of interest to me. I assume Pleask and ISPConfig fall into the server automation group as I would think cPanel does as well? which I find weird as that's sysadmin stuff normally (to me). Oddly enough it's a pretty diverse crowd of folks that are kinda hybrids, done networking, done sysadmin, some are php/web devs, etc, but lots of system-centric stuff so it tends to work out for info seekers. I suspect if I went into #sysadmin or like, they'd know nothing of networking, but #networking tends to come from diverse enough roots they do this stuff too, or did at one point at least. I'm wondering if the self-taught group may spend less time learning about networking. I've been interested in Linux since around 1997 / RedHat 4.2 or was it 5.2. And networking was of interest to me especially in the 80's as it was emerging. Moral is, there's a lot of crossover these days, and folks need to know some dev, some sysadmin, and some networking. The line blurs, but people can't just be like "well, I only do mssql or active directory" anymore, they're replaceable with shell scripts. I've done unix/linux, some dev, some dba, some windoze, everything between along with a strong focus and experience in networking, and it's paid dividends as I figure out what others don't as a result. Comparing to the OSI model of networking, I work mostly layer 1-7 up, but most dev/app/sysadmins work layer 7 down, and really have no idea below around layer 5 or so, much to their detriment. Best these days to be well versed across the board to some extent. Take a ccna class online, even if you don't get the cert, you'll probably understand things a lot more to make your life easier. I'm curious about what a developer might want to automate on a LAMP hosting server? I've use command line PHP to create a script to backup my hosting website and data ... AWS S3. I think I might have added something to cron... maybe it was that backup script. What else might I want to automate? -mb On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:11 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: Hi, I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and maybe that is not what he is talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types of jobs can they get? He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. Your Thoughts? Thanks!! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Fri, 07 Jan 2022 17:06:27 -0700 >He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for >server automation? I think Python 3 is the language for *everybody* to know. It's easy enough that most people know it, it's got a standard library so complete that you can do almost anything with just Python 3 and its standard library. And when you need something special, there's plenty of that too. Nowadays, I wouldn't be caught in any profession not knowing Python. I bet carpenters, Uber drivers, lawyers and network admins of all stripe can gain from it. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
I'm in the opposite realm - was a programmer and kind of an admin (glorified script kiddie?), went into networking, and then got back into programming, because it was a "thing" to automate networks. It's now my full time job, and I enjoy it a ton. The network to code slack is full of network engineers who have become that new hybrid. Sorry if that doesn't help from the opposite direction! - Thomas Scott | mr.thomas.sc...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 7:57 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > With the whole transition to libera.chat for irc and taking some time off > from work, I've taken to hanging out there a bit, and this is a common > thing I'm seeing in the #networking chat. I'm seeing a lot of devs showing > up in #networking asking for hosting/sysadmin stuff lots, ala "how to make > apache do x", or "how do I automate my servers", which I find weird as > that's sysadmin stuff normally (to me). Oddly enough it's a pretty diverse > crowd of folks that are kinda hybrids, done networking, done sysadmin, some > are php/web devs, etc, but lots of system-centric stuff so it tends to work > out for info seekers. I suspect if I went into #sysadmin or like, they'd > know nothing of networking, but #networking tends to come from diverse > enough roots they do this stuff too, or did at one point at least. > > Moral is, there's a lot of crossover these days, and folks need to know > some dev, some sysadmin, and some networking. The line blurs, but people > can't just be like "well, I only do mssql or active directory" anymore, > they're replaceable with shell scripts. I've done unix/linux, some dev, > some dba, some windoze, everything between along with a strong focus and > experience in networking, and it's paid dividends as I figure out what > others don't as a result. > > Comparing to the OSI model of networking, I work mostly layer 1-7 up, but > most dev/app/sysadmins work layer 7 down, and really have no idea below > around layer 5 or so, much to their detriment. Best these days to be well > versed across the board to some extent. Take a ccna class online, even if > you don't get the cert, you'll probably understand things a lot more to > make your life easier. > > -mb > > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:11 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a >> programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. >> I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and >> maybe that is not what he is talking about. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s >> >> How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the >> hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types >> of jobs can they get? >> >> He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server >> automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? >> >> I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and >> ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. >> >> Your Thoughts? >> >> Thanks!! >> >> --- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
With the whole transition to libera.chat for irc and taking some time off from work, I've taken to hanging out there a bit, and this is a common thing I'm seeing in the #networking chat. I'm seeing a lot of devs showing up in #networking asking for hosting/sysadmin stuff lots, ala "how to make apache do x", or "how do I automate my servers", which I find weird as that's sysadmin stuff normally (to me). Oddly enough it's a pretty diverse crowd of folks that are kinda hybrids, done networking, done sysadmin, some are php/web devs, etc, but lots of system-centric stuff so it tends to work out for info seekers. I suspect if I went into #sysadmin or like, they'd know nothing of networking, but #networking tends to come from diverse enough roots they do this stuff too, or did at one point at least. Moral is, there's a lot of crossover these days, and folks need to know some dev, some sysadmin, and some networking. The line blurs, but people can't just be like "well, I only do mssql or active directory" anymore, they're replaceable with shell scripts. I've done unix/linux, some dev, some dba, some windoze, everything between along with a strong focus and experience in networking, and it's paid dividends as I figure out what others don't as a result. Comparing to the OSI model of networking, I work mostly layer 1-7 up, but most dev/app/sysadmins work layer 7 down, and really have no idea below around layer 5 or so, much to their detriment. Best these days to be well versed across the board to some extent. Take a ccna class online, even if you don't get the cert, you'll probably understand things a lot more to make your life easier. -mb On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 5:11 PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a > programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. > I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and > maybe that is not what he is talking about. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s > > How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the > hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types > of jobs can they get? > > He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server > automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? > > I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and > ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. > > Your Thoughts? > > Thanks!! > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Demand for programmers who know system admin stuff
Hi, I've watched more than a few of NetworkChuck's videos. Here he is on a programmer's channel talking about programmers learning networking. I've always thought all web programmers have some Linux skills, and maybe that is not what he is talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlN-vMF13QY&t=0s How does this work for hosting admin? Is there the same demand in the hosting admin niche? If so what exactly should one know and what types of jobs can they get? He mentions Python - is that the programming language to know for server automation? He also mentioned Perl. I thought Perl was/is dead? I'm a PHP developer and find a lot of hosting tools such as Plesk and ISPConfig are written in PHP and use MySQL. Your Thoughts? Thanks!! --- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
