Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Partington]

just learning how to use the new commands and config files

100% Pebcak

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:23 PM Herminio Hernandez Jr. <
herminio.hernande...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What are your networking issues?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 7, 2019, at 2:21 AM, Stephen Partington 
> wrote:
>
> Right now Grub is about the only thing working right. i am having the
> weirdest time trying to learn how to do networking the arch way. their
> documentation has decidedly gotten worse.
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Michael Butash  wrote:
>
>> What sort of FS structure do you use for yours?  Arch and it's grub
>> configuration is highly broken for me, and many other folks right now, so
>> I'm sure it's something particular to my build.
>>
>> I've been afraid to update my dekstop lately just in case same issues
>> there now, but there is little difference between them at this point I can
>> find that one works, and the other does not, other than a lack of raid.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 3:11 PM Stephen Partington 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I had Nvidia/Intel working on a Lattitude 5580 with bumblebee working
>>> well. In the case of my specific AW it is a G-Sync enabled display, so
>>> there is no Mux chip to swap between intel and Nvidia graphics. Native
>>> screen and all physical connectors are connected directly to the nvidia
>>> GPU, and the Intel chip does not do much unless you have thunderbolt
>>> working. But it worked well with Ubuntu so i don't expect much with regards
>>> to Arch. Arch will likely have more behavior issues with Wifi.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:54 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>>
 Speaking of BSD environments…

 Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he
 expects someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps,
 patching and finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review,
 etc.). All I wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup
 option on the installation disks for OpenBSD.

 Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I
 haven’t had a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still
 abuzz with technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be
 patched and ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless
 things radically change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much
 hope for a more secure OS anytime soon.

 If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time
 Theo is there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain
 before a very public audience why it is that many blind users like me are
 left out of the picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action
 and to doing the right thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do
 anything (I hope for the former, but expect the latter, if you know what I
 mean). We blind users expect to be able to use technology and there really
 is no longer any excuse not to make Operating systems accessible..

 Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t
 want to have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found
 useful. You know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!

 -Eric
 From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all
 Dept.


 On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott 
 wrote:

 I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few
 years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow
 changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the
 "cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my
 computer "You moved that WHERE?!".

 In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the
 enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much
 ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in
 support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.

 On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:

> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better
> distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several
> others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t
> tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified
> opinion on arch.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and
> Development.
>
>
> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:
>
> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't
> piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave
> me at some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times,
> Arch has been downrigh

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Herminio Hernandez Jr.]

What are your networking issues?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2019, at 2:21 AM, Stephen Partington  wrote:
> 
> Right now Grub is about the only thing working right. i am having the 
> weirdest time trying to learn how to do networking the arch way. their 
> documentation has decidedly gotten worse.
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Michael Butash  wrote:
>> What sort of FS structure do you use for yours?  Arch and it's grub 
>> configuration is highly broken for me, and many other folks right now, so 
>> I'm sure it's something particular to my build.
>> 
>> I've been afraid to update my dekstop lately just in case same issues there 
>> now, but there is little difference between them at this point I can find 
>> that one works, and the other does not, other than a lack of raid.
>> 
>> -mb
>> 
>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 3:11 PM Stephen Partington  
>>> wrote:
>>> I had Nvidia/Intel working on a Lattitude 5580 with bumblebee working well. 
>>> In the case of my specific AW it is a G-Sync enabled display, so there is 
>>> no Mux chip to swap between intel and Nvidia graphics. Native screen and 
>>> all physical connectors are connected directly to the nvidia GPU, and the 
>>> Intel chip does not do much unless you have thunderbolt working. But it 
>>> worked well with Ubuntu so i don't expect much with regards to Arch. Arch 
>>> will likely have more behavior issues with Wifi.
>>> 
 On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:54 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
 Speaking of BSD environments…
 
 Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he expects 
 someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps, patching and 
 finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review, etc.). All I 
 wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup option on the 
 installation disks for OpenBSD.
 
 Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I haven’t 
 had a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still abuzz 
 with technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be patched 
 and ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless things 
 radically change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much hope 
 for a more secure OS anytime soon.
 
 If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time Theo 
 is there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain before 
 a very public audience why it is that many blind users like me are left 
 out of the picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action and to 
 doing the right thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do 
 anything (I hope for the former, but expect the latter, if you know what I 
 mean). We blind users expect to be able to use technology and there really 
 is no longer any excuse not to make Operating systems accessible..
 
 Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t want 
 to have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found 
 useful. You know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!
 
 -Eric
 From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all Dept.
 
 
> On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott  
> wrote:
> 
> I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few 
> years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow 
> changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the 
> "cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at 
> my computer "You moved that WHERE?!". 
> 
> In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the 
> enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much 
> ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in 
> support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.  
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better 
>> distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and 
>> several others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I 
>> haven’t tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a 
>> qualified opinion on arch.
>> 
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and 
>> Development.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't 
>>> piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and 
>>> leave me at some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many 
>>> times, Arch has been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for 
>>> as complex a setup as I have her

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Partington]

Right now Grub is about the only thing working right. i am having the
weirdest time trying to learn how to do networking the arch way. their
documentation has decidedly gotten worse.

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Michael Butash  wrote:

> What sort of FS structure do you use for yours?  Arch and it's grub
> configuration is highly broken for me, and many other folks right now, so
> I'm sure it's something particular to my build.
>
> I've been afraid to update my dekstop lately just in case same issues
> there now, but there is little difference between them at this point I can
> find that one works, and the other does not, other than a lack of raid.
>
> -mb
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 3:11 PM Stephen Partington 
> wrote:
>
>> I had Nvidia/Intel working on a Lattitude 5580 with bumblebee working
>> well. In the case of my specific AW it is a G-Sync enabled display, so
>> there is no Mux chip to swap between intel and Nvidia graphics. Native
>> screen and all physical connectors are connected directly to the nvidia
>> GPU, and the Intel chip does not do much unless you have thunderbolt
>> working. But it worked well with Ubuntu so i don't expect much with regards
>> to Arch. Arch will likely have more behavior issues with Wifi.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:54 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of BSD environments…
>>>
>>> Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he
>>> expects someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps,
>>> patching and finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review,
>>> etc.). All I wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup
>>> option on the installation disks for OpenBSD.
>>>
>>> Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I
>>> haven’t had a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still
>>> abuzz with technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be
>>> patched and ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless
>>> things radically change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much
>>> hope for a more secure OS anytime soon.
>>>
>>> If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time
>>> Theo is there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain
>>> before a very public audience why it is that many blind users like me are
>>> left out of the picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action
>>> and to doing the right thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do
>>> anything (I hope for the former, but expect the latter, if you know what I
>>> mean). We blind users expect to be able to use technology and there really
>>> is no longer any excuse not to make Operating systems accessible..
>>>
>>> Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t want
>>> to have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found
>>> useful. You know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>> From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all
>>> Dept.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few
>>> years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow
>>> changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the
>>> "cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my
>>> computer "You moved that WHERE?!".
>>>
>>> In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the
>>> enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much
>>> ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in
>>> support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>>
 Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better
 distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several
 others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t
 tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified
 opinion on arch.

 -Eric
 From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and
 Development.


 On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:

 It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't
 piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave
 me at some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times,
 Arch has been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex
 a setup as I have here.

 I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot,
 /var, /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always
 use 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store
 more than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Michael Butash]

What sort of FS structure do you use for yours?  Arch and it's grub
configuration is highly broken for me, and many other folks right now, so
I'm sure it's something particular to my build.

I've been afraid to update my dekstop lately just in case same issues there
now, but there is little difference between them at this point I can find
that one works, and the other does not, other than a lack of raid.

-mb

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 3:11 PM Stephen Partington 
wrote:

> I had Nvidia/Intel working on a Lattitude 5580 with bumblebee working
> well. In the case of my specific AW it is a G-Sync enabled display, so
> there is no Mux chip to swap between intel and Nvidia graphics. Native
> screen and all physical connectors are connected directly to the nvidia
> GPU, and the Intel chip does not do much unless you have thunderbolt
> working. But it worked well with Ubuntu so i don't expect much with regards
> to Arch. Arch will likely have more behavior issues with Wifi.
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:54 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>
>> Speaking of BSD environments…
>>
>> Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he
>> expects someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps,
>> patching and finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review,
>> etc.). All I wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup
>> option on the installation disks for OpenBSD.
>>
>> Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I
>> haven’t had a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still
>> abuzz with technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be
>> patched and ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless
>> things radically change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much
>> hope for a more secure OS anytime soon.
>>
>> If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time
>> Theo is there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain
>> before a very public audience why it is that many blind users like me are
>> left out of the picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action
>> and to doing the right thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do
>> anything (I hope for the former, but expect the latter, if you know what I
>> mean). We blind users expect to be able to use technology and there really
>> is no longer any excuse not to make Operating systems accessible..
>>
>> Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t want
>> to have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found
>> useful. You know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all Dept.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few
>> years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow
>> changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the
>> "cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my
>> computer "You moved that WHERE?!".
>>
>> In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the
>> enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much
>> ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in
>> support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>
>>> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better
>>> distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several
>>> others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t
>>> tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified
>>> opinion on arch.
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and
>>> Development.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:
>>>
>>> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't
>>> piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave
>>> me at some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times,
>>> Arch has been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex
>>> a setup as I have here.
>>>
>>> I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var,
>>> /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always use
>>> 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store
>>> more than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time
>>> would fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so
>>> something like that in Fedora is appreciated.  I've not trusted ubuntu
>>> auto-upgrades, or ubuntu much at all since.
>>>
>>> Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from
>>> secureboot nonsense, so it works out.  Arch doesn't norma

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Partington]

I had Nvidia/Intel working on a Lattitude 5580 with bumblebee working well.
In the case of my specific AW it is a G-Sync enabled display, so there is
no Mux chip to swap between intel and Nvidia graphics. Native screen and
all physical connectors are connected directly to the nvidia GPU, and the
Intel chip does not do much unless you have thunderbolt working. But it
worked well with Ubuntu so i don't expect much with regards to Arch. Arch
will likely have more behavior issues with Wifi.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 11:54 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:

> Speaking of BSD environments…
>
> Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he expects
> someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps, patching and
> finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review, etc.). All I
> wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup option on the
> installation disks for OpenBSD.
>
> Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I haven’t
> had a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still abuzz
> with technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be patched
> and ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless things
> radically change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much hope for
> a more secure OS anytime soon.
>
> If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time Theo
> is there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain before a
> very public audience why it is that many blind users like me are left out
> of the picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action and to
> doing the right thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do
> anything (I hope for the former, but expect the latter, if you know what I
> mean). We blind users expect to be able to use technology and there really
> is no longer any excuse not to make Operating systems accessible..
>
> Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t want
> to have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found
> useful. You know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!
>
> -Eric
> From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all Dept.
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott 
> wrote:
>
> I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few
> years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow
> changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the
> "cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my
> computer "You moved that WHERE?!".
>
> In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the
> enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much
> ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in
> support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:
>
>> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better
>> distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several
>> others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t
>> tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified
>> opinion on arch.
>>
>> -Eric
>> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and
>> Development.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:
>>
>> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't
>> piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave
>> me at some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times,
>> Arch has been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex
>> a setup as I have here.
>>
>> I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var,
>> /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always use
>> 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store
>> more than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time
>> would fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so
>> something like that in Fedora is appreciated.  I've not trusted ubuntu
>> auto-upgrades, or ubuntu much at all since.
>>
>> Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from
>> secureboot nonsense, so it works out.  Arch doesn't normally keep multiple
>> kernels around, so not an issue here.
>>
>> I still have never liked RH-derivatives however, and still grimace using
>> them after 20 years.  I did however install cent7 not long ago on my
>> network test rigs as the only distro that supported my 100gb nic drivers,
>> and it didn't seem terrible to use these days.  Might try it sometime, but
>> so far Arch hasn't given me reason to ever leave it.
>>
>> -mb
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Harold Hartley 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Eric Oyen]

Speaking of BSD environments…

Well, Theo DeRaadt still won’t make his OS accessible. In fact, he expects 
someone like me to go through the process of coding the apps, patching and 
finally submitting to the ports system (for lengthly review, etc.). All I 
wanted was to have BrilTTY included as a possible startup option on the 
installation disks for OpenBSD.

Now, there is an accessibility project going over at NetBSD, but I haven’t had 
a lot of time to download and try it out. The forums are still abuzz with 
technical issues and the like and ORCA still would have to be patched and 
ported in order to work on an X Desktop there. So, unless things radically 
change, I am stuck with a few Linux Distros and not much hope for a more secure 
OS anytime soon.

If I had a ride up to the black hat convention in Las Vegas next time Theo is 
there, I might meet with him in open forum and have him explain before a very 
public audience why it is that many blind users like me are left out of the 
picture on his OS. Perhaps it might spur him into action and to doing the right 
thing. Or, it might cause him to dig in and never do anything (I hope for the 
former, but expect the latter, if you know what I mean). We blind users expect 
to be able to use technology and there really is no longer any excuse not to 
make Operating systems accessible..

Anyway, that’s my take on the BSD world. And yes, like you, I don’t want to 
have to face breakages, moved items or removed items that I found useful. You 
know how it is with engineers, they just love to change things!

-Eric
From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Technology for all Dept.


> On Mar 5, 2019, at 12:39 AM, Thomas Scott  wrote:
> 
> I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few years 
> away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow changes. 
> Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the "cutting 
> edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my computer 
> "You moved that WHERE?!". 
> 
> In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the 
> enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much 
> ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in support. 
> Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.  
> 
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  > wrote:
> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better distros 
> around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several others are 
> available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t tried this on 
> arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified opinion on arch.
> 
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and 
> Development.
> 
> 
>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash > > wrote:
>> 
>> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't piss 
>> me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave me at 
>> some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times, Arch has 
>> been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex a setup as 
>> I have here.
>> 
>> I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var, 
>> /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always use 
>> 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store more 
>> than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time would 
>> fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so something like 
>> that in Fedora is appreciated.  I've not trusted ubuntu auto-upgrades, or 
>> ubuntu much at all since.
>> 
>> Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from 
>> secureboot nonsense, so it works out.  Arch doesn't normally keep multiple 
>> kernels around, so not an issue here.  
>> 
>> I still have never liked RH-derivatives however, and still grimace using 
>> them after 20 years.  I did however install cent7 not long ago on my network 
>> test rigs as the only distro that supported my 100gb nic drivers, and it 
>> didn't seem terrible to use these days.  Might try it sometime, but so far 
>> Arch hasn't given me reason to ever leave it.
>> 
>> -mb
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Harold Hartley > > wrote:
>> It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as I also had 
>> problems with it.
>> I now run fedora and have no problems with at all. I find updates pretty 
>> much everyday with bug fixes and new files being installed. I even like how 
>> it installs the new kernel and removes the older kernel that’s 3 versions 
>> back.
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 14:47, Michael Butash wrote:
>>> Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their 
>>> standard package manager.
>>> 
>>> Installing 

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Jerry Snitselaar]

On Mon Mar 04 19, Harold Hartley wrote:

I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and doesn’t 
that violate open source license. That is my question.



I think the major difference about arch is that they do a rolling
release. That would be the selling point of it for me, if I were to
switch. They aren't any different than other distros when it comes to
source access as far as I know. I believe you can get source for
packages through pacman. I don't really keep up on other distros these
days, does anyone else have you build from source besides Gentoo?

Over the years I've played around with or used Slackware, Debian,
Ubuntu, and Gentoo, but for the past 20 it has mainly been Fedora and
Red Hat before that.


On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:

Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install with 
the option of compile from source.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley  wrote:
> __
> The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages in 
binary form.
> That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s binary 
files.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
>> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the 
window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of reasons.
>>
>> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their lite 
install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been considering moving to 
arch on my laptop.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
>> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
>> >
>> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott  
wrote:
>> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM,  
 wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
>> >> > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >> >
>> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >> > 
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
>> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >> > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >> >
>> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >> > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >> >
>> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Today's Topics:
>> >> >
>> >> > 1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> >
>> >> > Message: 1
>> >> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
>> >> > From: Matthew Crews 
>> >> > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
>> >> > Message-ID: 
>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >> >
>> >> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
>> >> >> moin moin,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and looked.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Has anyone tried it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ciao,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> der.hans
>> >> >
>> >> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
>> >> > with none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
>> >> > margin).
>> >> >
>> >> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me because
>> >> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
>> >> > this case, Lubuntu).
>> >> >
>> >> > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
>> >> > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu LTS).
>> >> > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, and
>> >> > looks fairly nice.
>> >> >
>> >> > -- next part --
>> >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> >> > Name: signature.asc
>> >> > Type: application/pgp-signature
>> >> > Size: 833 bytes
>> >> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
>> >> > URL: 

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Thomas Scott]

I've moved towards arch and even BSD in personal use over the past few
years away from ubuntu. I don't want massive changes, I want solid, slow
changes. Funny how when I first got into Linux a decade ago, I loved the
"cutting edge", now when I see something new, I'm more likely to yell at my
computer "You moved that WHERE?!".

In the day (night) job, it's RH. As MB noted, when it comes to the
enterprise, it's still supreme. Especially with Openstack gaining as much
ground as it has, Canonical lags far behind RH and even Mirantis in
support. Kind of sad to see my old favorite dwindle so much.

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 12:00 AM Eric Oyen  wrote:

> Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better
> distros around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several
> others are available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t
> tried this on arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified
> opinion on arch.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and
> Development.
>
>
> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:
>
> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't
> piss me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave
> me at some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times,
> Arch has been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex
> a setup as I have here.
>
> I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var,
> /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always use
> 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store
> more than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time
> would fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so
> something like that in Fedora is appreciated.  I've not trusted ubuntu
> auto-upgrades, or ubuntu much at all since.
>
> Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from
> secureboot nonsense, so it works out.  Arch doesn't normally keep multiple
> kernels around, so not an issue here.
>
> I still have never liked RH-derivatives however, and still grimace using
> them after 20 years.  I did however install cent7 not long ago on my
> network test rigs as the only distro that supported my 100gb nic drivers,
> and it didn't seem terrible to use these days.  Might try it sometime, but
> so far Arch hasn't given me reason to ever leave it.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Harold Hartley 
> wrote:
>
>> It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as I also
>> had problems with it.
>> I now run fedora and have no problems with at all. I find updates pretty
>> much everyday with bug fixes and new files being installed. I even like how
>> it installs the new kernel and removes the older kernel that’s 3 versions
>> back.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 14:47, Michael Butash wrote:
>>
>> Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their
>> standard package manager.
>>
>> Installing other package managers like yaourt introduce community repos,
>> ala deb/ubuntu ppa repos, which may or may not just compile something on
>> the fly for you if no binary package available. I don't think I've ever NOT
>> found something I needed in pacman or yaourt repos under arch that I've had
>> to compile manually, and both binary or compiling on the fly via yaourt
>> have worked almost flawlessly.
>>
>> I've run Arch on my desktop for at least 2 years now, and it's been the
>> best change I've made in a long while. Rolling upgrades are great, I've not
>> encountered one failed upgrade with arch, vs. like every fscking time
>> upgrading any ubuntu system that fails horribly, almost reliably, every
>> time. I've run into a few upgrade issues, usually with a conflicting 3rd
>> party package that has been replaced, but otherwise has worked flawlessly.
>>
>> That said, I can't make it work on my laptop to save my life, but I think
>> it's more a matter of current kernel, grub, systemd, and various bits not
>> playing nicely with my luks+lvm setup. If not requiring things like
>> encryption and logical volumes, it's probably pretty easy to walk-through,
>> but only for an advanced (or sadist newbie) user.
>>
>> Arch has been great once booting and working, I have half a dozen
>> different DE's installed on here, and basically rotate between what one is
>> less broken each upgrade,. A fault, not of Arch's so much the individual
>> DE's that can't figure out high-resolution compositing, rotating between
>> sucking or not. I've been using Mate for a distinct lack of compositing,
>> which proves most stable. I just don't like the menu and a lack of
>> type-to-search feature in it...
>>
>> I've tried switching off my laptop Ubuntu install as with 18.04 upgrade,
>> it locked me into Wayland, which simply does NOT work with any other DE on
>> it. I can't launch into KDE, Cinnamon, Mate,

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Eric Oyen]

Well, from an accessibility standpoint, Ubbuntu is one of the better distros 
around. ORCA screen reader, BrlTTY, speak, emacsspeak and several others are 
available and even the initial setup is accessible. I haven’t tried this on 
arch yet and until I research it, I can’t give a qualified opinion on arch.

-Eric
From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Dept of Research and 
Development.


> On Mar 4, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Michael Butash  wrote:
> 
> It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't piss 
> me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave me at 
> some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times, Arch has 
> been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex a setup as 
> I have here.
> 
> I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var, 
> /var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always use 
> 200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store more 
> than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time would 
> fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so something like 
> that in Fedora is appreciated.  I've not trusted ubuntu auto-upgrades, or 
> ubuntu much at all since.
> 
> Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from 
> secureboot nonsense, so it works out.  Arch doesn't normally keep multiple 
> kernels around, so not an issue here.  
> 
> I still have never liked RH-derivatives however, and still grimace using them 
> after 20 years.  I did however install cent7 not long ago on my network test 
> rigs as the only distro that supported my 100gb nic drivers, and it didn't 
> seem terrible to use these days.  Might try it sometime, but so far Arch 
> hasn't given me reason to ever leave it.
> 
> -mb
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Harold Hartley  > wrote:
> It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as I also had 
> problems with it.
> I now run fedora and have no problems with at all. I find updates pretty much 
> everyday with bug fixes and new files being installed. I even like how it 
> installs the new kernel and removes the older kernel that’s 3 versions back.
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 14:47, Michael Butash wrote:
>> Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their 
>> standard package manager.
>> 
>> Installing other package managers like yaourt introduce community repos, ala 
>> deb/ubuntu ppa repos, which may or may not just compile something on the fly 
>> for you if no binary package available. I don't think I've ever NOT found 
>> something I needed in pacman or yaourt repos under arch that I've had to 
>> compile manually, and both binary or compiling on the fly via yaourt have 
>> worked almost flawlessly.
>> 
>> I've run Arch on my desktop for at least 2 years now, and it's been the best 
>> change I've made in a long while. Rolling upgrades are great, I've not 
>> encountered one failed upgrade with arch, vs. like every fscking time 
>> upgrading any ubuntu system that fails horribly, almost reliably, every 
>> time. I've run into a few upgrade issues, usually with a conflicting 3rd 
>> party package that has been replaced, but otherwise has worked flawlessly.
>> 
>> That said, I can't make it work on my laptop to save my life, but I think 
>> it's more a matter of current kernel, grub, systemd, and various bits not 
>> playing nicely with my luks+lvm setup. If not requiring things like 
>> encryption and logical volumes, it's probably pretty easy to walk-through, 
>> but only for an advanced (or sadist newbie) user.
>> 
>> Arch has been great once booting and working, I have half a dozen different 
>> DE's installed on here, and basically rotate between what one is less broken 
>> each upgrade,. A fault, not of Arch's so much the individual DE's that can't 
>> figure out high-resolution compositing, rotating between sucking or not. 
>> I've been using Mate for a distinct lack of compositing, which proves most 
>> stable. I just don't like the menu and a lack of type-to-search feature in 
>> it...
>> 
>> I've tried switching off my laptop Ubuntu install as with 18.04 upgrade, it 
>> locked me into Wayland, which simply does NOT work with any other DE on it. 
>> I can't launch into KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, or anything else on it, they just 
>> fail at login - only Gnome3 (Ubuntu Bastard-Edition) works, with many, many 
>> problems that about make it infuriating to use. I've not hated a DE so much 
>> in a long time, thanks Ubuntu. but stuck as the only thing working on my 
>> laptop other than windoze my xps15 came with. I'll get frisky and try Arch 
>> again soon.
>> 
>> Trick is finding a distro you like, your comfortable with, and doesn't 
>> randomly break with every upgrade. Ubuntu is NOT the latter, expect upgrades 
>> to fail you, this coming from someone living Ubuntu since 6.04.

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Michael Butash]

It's little things like that that make the distro to be honest.  Don't piss
me off, don't die catastrophically randomly, don't upgrade and leave me at
some nebulous boot prompt.  Ubuntu did that to me too many times, Arch has
been downright gentile by comparison, particularly for as complex a setup
as I have here.

I'm fairly particular about breaking down os partitions, /, /boot, /var,
/var/log, /usr, /home, and anything else plugged in.  I would always use
200mb for my /boot, then some point kernels got huge and couldn't store
more than 3 on that.  Leaving auto-upgrade on ubuntu for 6 months at a time
would fill the boot drive and start failed upgrades annoyingly, so
something like that in Fedora is appreciated.  I've not trusted ubuntu
auto-upgrades, or ubuntu much at all since.

Now I just throw /boot a gig, and typically about the same for EFI from
secureboot nonsense, so it works out.  Arch doesn't normally keep multiple
kernels around, so not an issue here.

I still have never liked RH-derivatives however, and still grimace using
them after 20 years.  I did however install cent7 not long ago on my
network test rigs as the only distro that supported my 100gb nic drivers,
and it didn't seem terrible to use these days.  Might try it sometime, but
so far Arch hasn't given me reason to ever leave it.

-mb


On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 3:39 PM Harold Hartley 
wrote:

> It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as I also
> had problems with it.
> I now run fedora and have no problems with at all. I find updates pretty
> much everyday with bug fixes and new files being installed. I even like how
> it installs the new kernel and removes the older kernel that’s 3 versions
> back.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 14:47, Michael Butash wrote:
>
> Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their
> standard package manager.
>
> Installing other package managers like yaourt introduce community repos,
> ala deb/ubuntu ppa repos, which may or may not just compile something on
> the fly for you if no binary package available. I don't think I've ever NOT
> found something I needed in pacman or yaourt repos under arch that I've had
> to compile manually, and both binary or compiling on the fly via yaourt
> have worked almost flawlessly.
>
> I've run Arch on my desktop for at least 2 years now, and it's been the
> best change I've made in a long while. Rolling upgrades are great, I've not
> encountered one failed upgrade with arch, vs. like every fscking time
> upgrading any ubuntu system that fails horribly, almost reliably, every
> time. I've run into a few upgrade issues, usually with a conflicting 3rd
> party package that has been replaced, but otherwise has worked flawlessly.
>
> That said, I can't make it work on my laptop to save my life, but I think
> it's more a matter of current kernel, grub, systemd, and various bits not
> playing nicely with my luks+lvm setup. If not requiring things like
> encryption and logical volumes, it's probably pretty easy to walk-through,
> but only for an advanced (or sadist newbie) user.
>
> Arch has been great once booting and working, I have half a dozen
> different DE's installed on here, and basically rotate between what one is
> less broken each upgrade,. A fault, not of Arch's so much the individual
> DE's that can't figure out high-resolution compositing, rotating between
> sucking or not. I've been using Mate for a distinct lack of compositing,
> which proves most stable. I just don't like the menu and a lack of
> type-to-search feature in it...
>
> I've tried switching off my laptop Ubuntu install as with 18.04 upgrade,
> it locked me into Wayland, which simply does NOT work with any other DE on
> it. I can't launch into KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, or anything else on it, they
> just fail at login - only Gnome3 (Ubuntu Bastard-Edition) works, with many,
> many problems that about make it infuriating to use. I've not hated a DE so
> much in a long time, thanks Ubuntu. but stuck as the only thing working on
> my laptop other than windoze my xps15 came with. I'll get frisky and try
> Arch again soon.
>
> Trick is finding a distro you like, your comfortable with, and doesn't
> randomly break with every upgrade. Ubuntu is NOT the latter, expect
> upgrades to fail you, this coming from someone living Ubuntu since 6.04.
> Other distros, ymmv.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:02 PM Harold Hartley 
> wrote:
> > __
> > I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
> > If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and
> doesn’t that violate open source license. That is my question.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >> Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you
> install with the option of compile from source.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley 
> wrote:
> >> > __
> >> > The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> >> >

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Harold Hartley]

It’s good to get useful info on arch and I agree about Ubuntu as I also had 
problems with it.
I now run fedora and have no problems with at all. I find updates pretty much 
everyday with bug fixes and new files being installed. I even like how it 
installs the new kernel and removes the older kernel that’s 3 versions back.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 14:47, Michael Butash wrote:
> Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their 
> standard package manager.
> 
> Installing other package managers like yaourt introduce community repos, ala 
> deb/ubuntu ppa repos, which may or may not just compile something on the fly 
> for you if no binary package available. I don't think I've ever NOT found 
> something I needed in pacman or yaourt repos under arch that I've had to 
> compile manually, and both binary or compiling on the fly via yaourt have 
> worked almost flawlessly.
> 
> I've run Arch on my desktop for at least 2 years now, and it's been the best 
> change I've made in a long while. Rolling upgrades are great, I've not 
> encountered one failed upgrade with arch, vs. like every fscking time 
> upgrading any ubuntu system that fails horribly, almost reliably, every time. 
> I've run into a few upgrade issues, usually with a conflicting 3rd party 
> package that has been replaced, but otherwise has worked flawlessly.
> 
> That said, I can't make it work on my laptop to save my life, but I think 
> it's more a matter of current kernel, grub, systemd, and various bits not 
> playing nicely with my luks+lvm setup. If not requiring things like 
> encryption and logical volumes, it's probably pretty easy to walk-through, 
> but only for an advanced (or sadist newbie) user.
> 
> Arch has been great once booting and working, I have half a dozen different 
> DE's installed on here, and basically rotate between what one is less broken 
> each upgrade,. A fault, not of Arch's so much the individual DE's that can't 
> figure out high-resolution compositing, rotating between sucking or not. I've 
> been using Mate for a distinct lack of compositing, which proves most stable. 
> I just don't like the menu and a lack of type-to-search feature in it...
> 
> I've tried switching off my laptop Ubuntu install as with 18.04 upgrade, it 
> locked me into Wayland, which simply does NOT work with any other DE on it. I 
> can't launch into KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, or anything else on it, they just fail 
> at login - only Gnome3 (Ubuntu Bastard-Edition) works, with many, many 
> problems that about make it infuriating to use. I've not hated a DE so much 
> in a long time, thanks Ubuntu. but stuck as the only thing working on my 
> laptop other than windoze my xps15 came with. I'll get frisky and try Arch 
> again soon.
> 
> Trick is finding a distro you like, your comfortable with, and doesn't 
> randomly break with every upgrade. Ubuntu is NOT the latter, expect upgrades 
> to fail you, this coming from someone living Ubuntu since 6.04. Other 
> distros, ymmv.
> 
> -mb
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:02 PM Harold Hartley  wrote:
> > __
> > I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
> > If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and doesn’t 
> > that violate open source license. That is my question.
> > 
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >> Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install 
> >> with the option of compile from source. 
> >> 
> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley  
> >> wrote:
> >> > __
> >> > The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> >> > Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages 
> >> > in binary form.
> >> > That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s 
> >> > binary files.
> >> > 
> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >> >> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the 
> >> >> window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number 
> >> >> of reasons. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their 
> >> >> lite install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been 
> >> >> considering moving to arch on my laptop. 
> >> >> 
> >> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
> >> >> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott 
> >> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros? 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, 
> >> >> >> >  
> >> >> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >> >> >> > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >> > 
> >> >> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> >> >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?u

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Michael Butash]

Arch is mostly precompiled binaries if using standard pacman repos, their
standard package manager.

Installing other package managers like yaourt introduce community repos,
ala deb/ubuntu ppa repos, which may or may not just compile something on
the fly for you if no binary package available.  I don't think I've ever
NOT found something I needed in pacman or yaourt repos under arch that I've
had to compile manually, and both binary or compiling on the fly via yaourt
have worked almost flawlessly.

I've run Arch on my desktop for at least 2 years now, and it's been the
best change I've made in a long while.  Rolling upgrades are great, I've
not encountered one failed upgrade with arch, vs. like every fscking time
upgrading any ubuntu system that fails horribly, almost reliably, every
time.  I've run into a few upgrade issues, usually with a conflicting 3rd
party package that has been replaced, but otherwise has worked flawlessly.

That said, I can't make it work on my laptop to save my life, but I think
it's more a matter of current kernel, grub, systemd, and various bits not
playing nicely with my luks+lvm setup.  If not requiring things like
encryption and logical volumes, it's probably pretty easy to walk-through,
but only for an advanced (or sadist newbie) user.

Arch has been great once booting and working, I have half a dozen different
DE's installed on here, and basically rotate between what one is less
broken each upgrade,.  A fault, not of Arch's so much the individual DE's
that can't figure out high-resolution compositing, rotating between sucking
or not.  I've been using Mate for a distinct lack of compositing, which
proves most stable.  I just don't like the menu and a lack of
type-to-search feature in it...

I've tried switching off my laptop Ubuntu install as with 18.04 upgrade, it
locked me into Wayland, which simply does NOT work with any other DE on
it.  I can't launch into KDE, Cinnamon, Mate, or anything else on it, they
just fail at login - only Gnome3 (Ubuntu Bastard-Edition) works, with many,
many problems that about make it infuriating to use.  I've not hated a DE
so much in a long time, thanks Ubuntu. but stuck as the only thing working
on my laptop other than windoze my xps15 came with.  I'll get frisky and
try Arch again soon.

Trick is finding a distro you like, your comfortable with, and doesn't
randomly break with every upgrade.  Ubuntu is NOT the latter, expect
upgrades to fail you, this coming from someone living Ubuntu since 6.04.
Other distros, ymmv.

-mb


On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:02 PM Harold Hartley 
wrote:

> I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
> If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and
> doesn’t that violate open source license. That is my question.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:
>
> Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install
> with the option of compile from source.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley 
> wrote:
> > __
> > The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> > Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages
> in binary form.
> > That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s
> binary files.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the
> window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of
> reasons.
> >>
> >> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their
> lite install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been
> considering moving to arch on my laptop.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
> >> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
> >> >
> >> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott 
> wrote:
> >> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >> >> > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> >> >
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> >> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> >> > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> >> > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> >> > than "Re: Contents of P

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Partington]

>From https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux

"Arch Linux defines simplicity as *without unnecessary additions or
modifications*. It ships software as released by the original developers (
upstream )
with minimal distribution-specific (downstream) changes: patches not
accepted by upstream are avoided, and Arch's downstream patches consist
almost entirely of backported bug fixes that are obsoleted by the project's
next release.
In a similar fashion, Arch ships the configuration files provided by
upstream with changes limited to distribution-specific issues like
adjusting the system file paths. It does not add automation features such
as enabling a service simply because the package was installed. Packages
are only split when compelling advantages exist, such as to save disk space
in particularly bad cases of waste. GUI configuration utilities are not
officially provided, encouraging users to perform most system configuration
from the shell and a text editor."

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 2:02 PM Harold Hartley 
wrote:

> I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
> If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and
> doesn’t that violate open source license. That is my question.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:
>
> Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install
> with the option of compile from source.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley 
> wrote:
> > __
> > The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> > Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages
> in binary form.
> > That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s
> binary files.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the
> window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of
> reasons.
> >>
> >> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their
> lite install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been
> considering moving to arch on my laptop.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
> >> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
> >> >
> >> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott 
> wrote:
> >> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >> >> > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> >> >
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> >> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> >> > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> >> > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> >> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Today's Topics:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> --
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Message: 1
> >> >> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
> >> >> > From: Matthew Crews 
> >> >> > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
> >> >> > Message-ID: 
> >> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
> >> >> >> moin moin,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and
> looked.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Has anyone tried it?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ciao,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> der.hans
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu,
> but
> >> >> > with none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a
> significant
> >> >> > margin).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me
> because
> >> >> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to 

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Harold Hartley]

I thought arch was just binary. Never knew they started having both.
If arch is offering a binary system, isn’t that a closed system and doesn’t 
that violate open source license. That is my question.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:58, Stephen Partington wrote:
> Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install 
> with the option of compile from source. 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley  wrote:
> > __
> > The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> > Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages in 
> > binary form.
> > That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s binary 
> > files.
> > 
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
> >> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the 
> >> window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of 
> >> reasons. 
> >> 
> >> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their lite 
> >> install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been considering 
> >> moving to arch on my laptop. 
> >> 
> >> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
> >> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
> >> > 
> >> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
> >> > 
> >> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott  
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros? 
> >> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, 
> >> >> >  
> >> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >> >> > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> >> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> >> > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> >> > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> >> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Today's Topics:
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > 1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Message: 1
> >> >> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
> >> >> > From: Matthew Crews 
> >> >> > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
> >> >> > Message-ID: 
> >> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
> >> >> >> moin moin,
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and 
> >> >> >> looked.
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> Has anyone tried it?
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> ciao,
> >> >> >> 
> >> >> >> der.hans
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
> >> >> > with none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
> >> >> > margin).
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me 
> >> >> > because
> >> >> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
> >> >> > this case, Lubuntu).
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
> >> >> > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu 
> >> >> > LTS).
> >> >> > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, 
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > looks fairly nice.
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > -- next part --
> >> >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> >> >> > Name: signature.asc
> >> >> > Type: application/pgp-signature
> >> >> > Size: 833 bytes
> >> >> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
> >> >> > URL: 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > 

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Partington]

Arch if i am correct is both. and like Gentoo you can build as you install
with the option of compile from source.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 1:40 PM Harold Hartley 
wrote:

> The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
> Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages
> in binary form.
> That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s binary
> files.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
>
> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the
> window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of
> reasons.
>
> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their lite
> install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been considering
> moving to arch on my laptop.
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
> >
> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott 
> wrote:
> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
> >>
> >>
> >>  > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >>  > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >>  >
> >>  > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>  >
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> >>  > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>  > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >>  >
> >>  > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>  > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >>  >
> >>  > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >>  > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  > Today's Topics:
> >>  >
> >>  > 1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> --
> >>  >
> >>  > Message: 1
> >>  > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
> >>  > From: Matthew Crews 
> >>  > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >>  > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
> >>  > Message-ID: 
> >>  > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>  >
> >>  > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
> >>  >> moin moin,
> >>  >>
> >>  >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and
> looked.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Has anyone tried it?
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ciao,
> >>  >>
> >>  >> der.hans
> >>  >
> >>  > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
> >>  > with none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a
> significant
> >>  > margin).
> >>  >
> >>  > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me
> because
> >>  > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
> >>  > this case, Lubuntu).
> >>  >
> >>  > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
> >>  > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu
> LTS).
> >>  > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure,
> and
> >>  > looks fairly nice.
> >>  >
> >>  > -- next part --
> >>  > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> >>  > Name: signature.asc
> >>  > Type: application/pgp-signature
> >>  > Size: 833 bytes
> >>  > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
> >>  > URL: <
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fpipermail%2Fplug-discuss%2Fattachments%2F20190303%2F22561458%2Fattachment-0001.sig&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=a1CDo73PR2qUDpuKqP2uHdFA5MkwgUnr1dtAkxfO2pE%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >>  >
> >>  > --
> >>  >
> >>  > Subject: Digest Footer
> >>  >
> >>  > ___
> >>  > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >>  > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >>  >
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060797908&sdata=YLMpxM2zMugze0XPXfgXobTT3pLOFEg6yvfy3bAz6IE%3D&reserved=0
> >>  >
> >>

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Harold Hartley]

The first part you said I couldn’t have said any better.
Now isn’t arch a binary system which has their system files and packages in 
binary form.
That doesn’t leave much for fixing a problem on the system if it’s binary files.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, at 13:27, Stephen Partington wrote:
> Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the 
> window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of 
> reasons. 
> 
> I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their lite 
> install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been considering 
> moving to arch on my laptop. 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:
> > To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
> > 
> > Le Troll Face.jpeg here
> > 
> > On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott  
> > wrote:
> >> What is the purpose of all these different distros? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM,  
> >> >  wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >> > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> > 
> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> > 
> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> > 
> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Today's Topics:
> >> > 
> >> > 1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > --
> >> > 
> >> > Message: 1
> >> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
> >> > From: Matthew Crews 
> >> > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
> >> > Message-ID: 
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >> > 
> >> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
> >> >> moin moin,
> >> >> 
> >> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and looked.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
> >> >> 
> >> >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
> >> >> 
> >> >> Has anyone tried it?
> >> >> 
> >> >> ciao,
> >> >> 
> >> >> der.hans
> >> > 
> >> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
> >> > with none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
> >> > margin).
> >> > 
> >> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me because
> >> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
> >> > this case, Lubuntu).
> >> > 
> >> > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
> >> > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu LTS).
> >> > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, and
> >> > looks fairly nice.
> >> > 
> >> > -- next part --
> >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> >> > Name: signature.asc
> >> > Type: application/pgp-signature
> >> > Size: 833 bytes
> >> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
> >> > URL: 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > --
> >> > 
> >> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >> > 
> >> > ___
> >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060797908&sdata=YLMpxM2zMugze0XPXfgXobTT3pLOFEg6yvfy3bAz6IE%3D&reserved=0
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > --
> >> > 
> >> > End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3
> >> > 
> >> 
> >> ---
> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or 

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Partington]

Mostly it is just a personal preference. Sometimes it is related to the
window manager. Sometimes it is the package manager. There are a number of
reasons.

I personally am torn between arch and Ubuntu (especially with their lite
install option) I like both for different reasons. I have been considering
moving to arch on my laptop.

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019, 12:04 PM Aaron Jones  wrote:

> To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.
>
> Le Troll Face.jpeg here
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott 
> wrote:
>
>> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM, 
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
>> >   plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >   plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >   plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >   1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
>> > From: Matthew Crews 
>> > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
>> > Message-ID: 
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
>> >> moin moin,
>> >>
>> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and looked.
>> >>
>> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
>> >>
>> >> Has anyone tried it?
>> >>
>> >> ciao,
>> >>
>> >> der.hans
>> >
>> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
>> > with  none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
>> > margin).
>> >
>> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me because
>> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
>> > this case, Lubuntu).
>> >
>> > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
>> > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu LTS).
>> > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, and
>> > looks fairly nice.
>> >
>> > -- next part --
>> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> > Name: signature.asc
>> > Type: application/pgp-signature
>> > Size: 833 bytes
>> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
>> > URL: <
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fpipermail%2Fplug-discuss%2Fattachments%2F20190303%2F22561458%2Fattachment-0001.sig&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=a1CDo73PR2qUDpuKqP2uHdFA5MkwgUnr1dtAkxfO2pE%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Subject: Digest Footer
>> >
>> > ___
>> > PLUG-discuss mailing list  -  PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> >
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060797908&sdata=YLMpxM2zMugze0XPXfgXobTT3pLOFEg6yvfy3bAz6IE%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3
>> > 
>>
>> ---
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
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htt

Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Aaron Jones]

To entertain all the people who can't do Arch.

Le Troll Face.jpeg here

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 11:29 AM Stephen Elliott 
wrote:

> What is the purpose of all these different distros?
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM,  <
> plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> >
> > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
> >   plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >   plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >   plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
> > From: Matthew Crews 
> > To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
> >> moin moin,
> >>
> >> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and looked.
> >>
> >> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
> >>
> >>
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> Has anyone tried it?
> >>
> >> ciao,
> >>
> >> der.hans
> >
> > I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
> > with  none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
> > margin).
> >
> > Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me because
> > of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
> > this case, Lubuntu).
> >
> > The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
> > based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu LTS).
> > Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, and
> > looks fairly nice.
> >
> > -- next part --
> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > Name: signature.asc
> > Type: application/pgp-signature
> > Size: 833 bytes
> > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
> > URL: <
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fpipermail%2Fplug-discuss%2Fattachments%2F20190303%2F22561458%2Fattachment-0001.sig&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=a1CDo73PR2qUDpuKqP2uHdFA5MkwgUnr1dtAkxfO2pE%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > ___
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list  -  PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060797908&sdata=YLMpxM2zMugze0XPXfgXobTT3pLOFEg6yvfy3bAz6IE%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3
> > 
>
> ---
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> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
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Re: PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3

[Stephen Elliott]

What is the purpose of all these different distros? 


> On Mar 3, 2019, at 12:00 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to
>   plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.phxlinux.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fplug-discuss&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=qJghQhX9hWHCKzKKW9aBQO2zzPJ46052LA8aHlCqZm8%3D&reserved=0
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Phoenix Linux (Matthew Crews)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 15:15:37 +0100 (CET)
> From: Matthew Crews 
> To: plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> Subject: Re: Phoenix Linux
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On 3/1/19 6:18 PM, der.hans wrote:
>> moin moin,
>> 
>> I have seen references to this, but for the first time went and looked.
>> 
>> Phoenix Linux - based on lubuntu 16.04.3 LTS
>> 
>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphoenixlinux.weebly.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C763b23d1df1b4e6336a108d6a00a7265%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636872364060787903&sdata=gbDmb4Xv3bBpMO%2By4qtTA2sPhge2s82e39Mx3Daj%2F0M%3D&reserved=0
>> 
>> Has anyone tried it?
>> 
>> ciao,
>> 
>> der.hans
> 
> I haven't tried it, but it looks like a hobby respin of Lubuntu, but
> with  none of the support (and lagging behind upstream by a significant
> margin).
> 
> Hobby distros, especially hobby respins, are a tough sell for me because
> of the lack of support. I'd normally prefer to stick to upstream (in
> this case, Lubuntu).
> 
> The same person responsible for Phoenix also makes Feren OS, which is
> based off of Linux Mint (and in the process of rebasing to Ubuntu LTS).
> Feren is relatively well received and does have a support structure, and
> looks fairly nice.
> 
> -- next part --
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: signature.asc
> Type: application/pgp-signature
> Size: 833 bytes
> Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
> URL: 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
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> 
> 
> --
> 
> End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 165, Issue 3
> 

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