Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 25 Feb 2021, at 06:30, John Dale wrote: > since racism is not clearly defined and may not exist Please kill this thread before more of this fetid feces gets posted. -- "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - Don Marquis
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
plus one for terminating this thread, because On Thu, 2021-02-25 at 09:33 -0500, micah wrote: > If people don't like it, please do something productive about > it, rather than make hundreds of people have to hit their delete key. Impossible. The only thing I found to work is the opposite of productive: destruct myself before they find me. Back to playing chess with my rgb(0,0,0) and rgb(255,255,255) pieces, until the Ministry of Newspeak learns math. 255>0. Numeric privilege. You know the rest. -- Yuval Levy, JD, MBA, CFA Ontario-licensed lawyer
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 25 Feb 2021, at 5:52, Michael Schumacher wrote: if these are the final problems mankind has to solve, then we are on a good way. I think it's more "low-hanging fruit" than a "final problem." The problem is a collision of metaphorical usages of "black" and "white" and it is much simpler to eliminate the half of that collision that maps to virtue than the half that maps to race. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
This discussion was right on track and related to the naming of variables until this strangeness: "The Philosophy of Variable Naming with Considerations in the Social Sciences" Correcting a fact in mid stream of a legitimately technical discussion does not justify a non-technical rant. Delete me for that and I will delete postfix. Devolopment of the capability to delete individuals with whom you disagree is where the speech policing is heading anyway, John On 2/25/21 5:47 AM, Wietse Venema wrote: John Dale: "American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks" This is the Postfix mailing list. Foolist has been renamed into Barlist. Stop the non-technical rant, or be deleted. Wietse
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 2021-02-24 19:23:18, ghe2001 wrote: > Any chance of terminating this thread -- my disk is only a terabyte. +1 for terminating this thread. > Programmers can call a variable or label whatever they want to. It's one of > their perks. > > And they can change it if they want to. But it's often helpful for the users > if they make the change backward compatible, Exactly. If people don't like it, please do something productive about it, rather than make hundreds of people have to hit their delete key.
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Kudos to you Mauricio (great name, btw :) If we are changing variable names to fight racism, since racism is not clearly defined and may not exist, we may be making code changes to fight something that doesn't exist. "Race" - doesn't exist. You can't point to it? I love software, though - good luck with your variable name changes. On 2/24/21 8:36 PM, Mauricio Tavares wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Emmett Culley wrote: On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can expect NOTHING to change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" attitude. What if the rest of the world is a bit confused with the American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks, hence the need to fix the "white is better than black"? And under the same principle, there is no concern regarding whether the ideas expressed by replacement words will translate properly to other languages or have a symmetry to begin with (looking at you spamassassin). I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I apologize. But only if you are not. It must be nice to live in a world where everything is clearly compatimentarized and demarcated without a middle ground. You know, like characters in the average American blockbuster: you are either good or evil, 1 or 0, true or false, left or right, racist or not, and (bonus points if you know who I am alluding to) either with me or against me. Unfortunately, my world is a bit more complex. Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is thank you for doing that! Emmett
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 25.02.21 13:47, Wietse Venema wrote: John Dale: "American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks" This is the Postfix mailing list. Foolist has been renamed into Barlist. Stop the non-technical rant, or be deleted. TBH, you kind of set up yourself for all this discussion by exhorting (rather American-centric) moral principles in the original email, rather than framing it as purely technical decision. Arguing the change on technical merits would've taken a lot of fuel out of this pointless fire. OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
John Dale: > "American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks" This is the Postfix mailing list. Foolist has been renamed into Barlist. Stop the non-technical rant, or be deleted. Wietse
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
"American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks" This is an untrue generalization. It's not racist, but is it bigoted? If anything, Americans are presently too sensitive to this issue and are being pressed into making bad short sighted reactive policies. On 2/24/21 8:36 PM, Mauricio Tavares wrote: American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
The Native American situation notwithstanding - it's splitting hairs -
the origins of "black balling" predate computer hacking.
For what it's worth, many of the Lakota I know in the area dislike the
term "Native American". They use the term relatives a lot. I like it.
var relative = new ClassicIdea();
if(relative.isProvedPractical())
{
relative.reboot();
}
Also, define "race"? I thought it didn't really exist since any
biologically normal human being can have offspring with any other human
being, assuming they are the opposite gender and assuming the prime
directive with respect to scientific exploration of the genders through
big pharma therapies.
I appreciate the discussion. I feel if you want to deviate from the
accepted meaning of whitelist/blacklist in your code, you are welcome to
do that. I think after this discussion, a developer would be fully
informed about the dangers of invented languages going extinct (I have a
sneaking suspicion that blacklist and whitelist will survive), and
informed consent is the best we can hope for in situations like these.
You hate to see someone run off the cliff, but if you told them about it
and they did it anyway, is there a moral responsibility to mount a rescue?
I probably would, anyway, but I'm a softie.
Everything is being captured for posterity and analysis. Careful what
you sign your name to (honesty is the best policy).
Ask yourself on a quiet morning in the bathroom .. would you rather work
for someone who is the word gestapo, or someone like me?
Sincerely,
John Dale, lover of people of all colors if they are good people.
On 2/25/21 3:20 AM, Ruben Safir wrote:
however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for
understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some
background (or, worse, prejudice).
However, those are regular Enlgish words that now get mixed up with the
technology making it harder to communicate what you mean.
It is a big loser...
When did MS take over the namimg conventions.
You can't extract culture from language without stripping it of its
meaning, and BTW the meaning comes from Westerns with White Hats and
Black Hats.
If this was the problem with our racial issues in America, we would have
solved this years ago, rather than attacking Red Lining (no offense to
Native American Indians).
--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 2021-02-24 Emmett Culley wrote: > On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: >> On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: >> >>> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is >>> better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', >>> and variations on those words. >> >> We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until >> 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. >> >> Doubleplusgood! > > What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to > address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can > expect NOTHING to change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" > attitude. > > I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's > attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I > apologize. But only if you are not. "Taking action" to accomplish ... what exactly? Somebody please explain to me whose life got improved in any way by replacing the words "whitelist" and "blacklist" with "allowlist" and "denylist"? And people are racist now for calling a pointless change pointless? Wow. Regards Ansgar Wiechers -- "If Java had true garbage collection, most programs would delete themselves upon execution." --Robert Sewell
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
hi, thanks, we had something to laugh about at our coffee break this morning. No offense, but if these are the final problems mankind has to solve, then we are on a good way. > Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is > better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', > and variations on those words. -- Michael Schumacher
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 24 Feb 2021, at 14:57, Emmett Culley wrote: On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. I think it is twofold: I don’t see a problem therefore there is no problem. Whaa whaa whaa Change! Noes! I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. Seems fair to me. Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is thank you for doing that! +1 -- 99 percent of police give the rest a bad name.
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
> > however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for > understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some > background (or, worse, prejudice). > However, those are regular Enlgish words that now get mixed up with the technology making it harder to communicate what you mean. It is a big loser... When did MS take over the namimg conventions. You can't extract culture from language without stripping it of its meaning, and BTW the meaning comes from Westerns with White Hats and Black Hats. If this was the problem with our racial issues in America, we would have solved this years ago, rather than attacking Red Lining (no offense to Native American Indians). > > -- > Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ > Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. > Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. > Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Is it worth it to fracture the nomenclature of a huge body of software work .. on a lark? Shouldn't a person lose credibility for doing something like that so deviant from main stream common sense (colloquial logic)? I mean, it's not like we're saying var nr = new DarkColorsOffendMe(); nr.eraseTheWhites(); I would ask that something like this not be included in the repo for sure. It's common sense. But white list and dark list? This is referring to light's property that it illuminates and allows visual information to pass. I would implore anyone considering this meaningless censorship to reconsider. Come back off the ledge, for this is /the/ path to darkness and evil. :D One would also be documenting /forever /that one can't do basic logic, and that one did virtually nothing with the time and effort to combat real discrimination. You'll be the intellelectual Bill Buckner of your descendants, because this intellectual challenge is a slow moving grounder. We all came from Africa. And some of us do better logic for some reason. Maybe it was the Winters being couped-up and having lots of time to think that associates the lack of melanin with so many amazing inventions. Who knows .. I do know that changing a variable name in this fashion does virtually nothing to advance the cause of anyone, nor does attacking and demonizing some of our lighter colored earthlings for coming out of this mother or that mother or having mastered this skill or that skill. If it's biased examples of malfeasance you feel compelled to point to, I can show you plenty emanating from every skin color. Try me. Word policing has the opposite of the intended effect. Stop now before you destroy us all. :) Sincerely, John Dale, MS MIS Spearfish City Limits Host https://PlainsTribune.com https://DB2DOM.COM On 2/24/21 8:10 PM, j...@nunyuh.net wrote: "...other folks could go take a hike..." Indeed they could - just as they can now... "So, whose code is it?" The 'they' that own it...in this specific case, my guess is Wietse... "...who organically came to the terms white/black list..." Or really believe that context truly matters which leads them to understand that white & black in a piece of software config or log file has nothing to do with past or present social abuses and the quest for justice... On 2021-02-24 21:53, John Dale wrote: "the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire" That's it. That's the thing. I suppose if it was my code and I wanted to make that change other folks could go take a hike. So, whose code is it? If it were my code and I were dead (interesting prospect), I would try to lay curses from the afterlife on those who would so arrogantly rewrite my legacy (for better or for worse). I suppose that also applies to the millions of humans who organically came to the terms white/black list. The dev that overrides all of them is a (or feels like a) God (pronounced in a Wharf voice "GOD!") On 2/24/21 7:47 PM, j...@nunyuh.net wrote: the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Wietse Venema wrote: > Michael Grimm: >> /usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf: >> unused parameter: respectful_logging=no > > I tested the code with the name cut-and-pasted and did not notice > that the name had a typo. > > postfix-3.6-20210224 is uploaded to ftp/www.porcupine.org. Thanks for the quick fix. With kind regards, Michael
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Am 24.02.21 um 23:29 schrieb Wietse Venema: j...@nunyuh.net: I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to work... We all ready? Let's not do that. I have merely done away with the implication that white (as in whitelist) is better than black (as in blacklist). It is not the end of the world. No-one will be forced to give up their life style. The change is configurable, backwards-compatible by default. Wietse Hi Wietse your change is welcome, @ll please let this list tec related Regards -- [*] sys4 AG http://sys4.de, +49 (89) 30 90 46 64 Schleißheimer Straße 26/MG, 80333 München Sitz der Gesellschaft: München, Amtsgericht München: HRB 199263 Vorstand: Patrick Ben Koetter, Marc Schiffbauer Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Florian Kirstein
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Emmett Culley wrote: > > On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: > > On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: > > > >> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is > >> better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', > >> and variations on those words. > > > > We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 > > as originally intended by ministery of truth. > > > > Doubleplusgood! > > > > Ciao > What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address > systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can expect NOTHING to > change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" attitude. > What if the rest of the world is a bit confused with the American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks, hence the need to fix the "white is better than black"? And under the same principle, there is no concern regarding whether the ideas expressed by replacement words will translate properly to other languages or have a symmetry to begin with (looking at you spamassassin). > I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to > begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I apologize. But > only if you are not. > It must be nice to live in a world where everything is clearly compatimentarized and demarcated without a middle ground. You know, like characters in the average American blockbuster: you are either good or evil, 1 or 0, true or false, left or right, racist or not, and (bonus points if you know who I am alluding to) either with me or against me. Unfortunately, my world is a bit more complex. > Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is > thank you for doing that! > > Emmett >
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
"...other folks could go take a hike..." Indeed they could - just as they can now... "So, whose code is it?" The 'they' that own it...in this specific case, my guess is Wietse... "...who organically came to the terms white/black list..." Or really believe that context truly matters which leads them to understand that white & black in a piece of software config or log file has nothing to do with past or present social abuses and the quest for justice... On 2021-02-24 21:53, John Dale wrote: "the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire" That's it. That's the thing. I suppose if it was my code and I wanted to make that change other folks could go take a hike. So, whose code is it? If it were my code and I were dead (interesting prospect), I would try to lay curses from the afterlife on those who would so arrogantly rewrite my legacy (for better or for worse). I suppose that also applies to the millions of humans who organically came to the terms white/black list. The dev that overrides all of them is a (or feels like a) God (pronounced in a Wharf voice "GOD!") On 2/24/21 7:47 PM, j...@nunyuh.net wrote: the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
"the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire" That's it. That's the thing. I suppose if it was my code and I wanted to make that change other folks could go take a hike. So, whose code is it? If it were my code and I were dead (interesting prospect), I would try to lay curses from the afterlife on those who would so arrogantly rewrite my legacy (for better or for worse). I suppose that also applies to the millions of humans who organically came to the terms white/black list. The dev that overrides all of them is a (or feels like a) God (pronounced in a Wharf voice "GOD!") On 2/24/21 7:47 PM, j...@nunyuh.net wrote: the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
"...should we not consider the class of disallowed out there to be inherently persecuted..." Why? Are you suggesting the devs try and precog, Minority Report style, what nomenclature might in the future be at issue? “Variable naming is a wide ranging philosophical issue” It really shouldn’t be - at least not in relation to society and oppression. “…fixing racism…” In what regard? Changing variable or logging nomenclature does not fix anything related to racism as it exists in society with real people, not config\log files, being impacted in their daily lives. People-of-color are not more or less oppressed due to the recent changes in PF. Notwithstanding the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire, those choices should not be taken as any measure of social justice... On 2021-02-24 21:34, John Dale wrote: If we were to change the nomenclature to something like "disallowed" and "allowed", should we not consider the class of disallowed out there to be inherently persecuted? Are we looking at choosing variable names with no corresponding representation in the dictionary (just in case)? var lkjsfal = "Hello, Hell."; Variable naming is a wide ranging philosophical issue .. I for one am very glad we're fixing racism (actually, we may have fixed it already). On 2/24/21 3:18 PM, j...@nunyuh.net wrote: I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to work... We all ready? On 2021-02-24 16:57, Emmett Culley wrote: On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can expect NOTHING to change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" attitude. I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I apologize. But only if you are not. Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is thank you for doing that! Emmett
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
If we were to change the nomenclature to something like "disallowed" and "allowed", should we not consider the class of disallowed out there to be inherently persecuted? Are we looking at choosing variable names with no corresponding representation in the dictionary (just in case)? var lkjsfal = "Hello, Hell."; Variable naming is a wide ranging philosophical issue .. I for one am very glad we're fixing racism (actually, we may have fixed it already). On 2/24/21 3:18 PM, j...@nunyuh.net wrote: I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to work... We all ready? On 2021-02-24 16:57, Emmett Culley wrote: On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can expect NOTHING to change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" attitude. I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I apologize. But only if you are not. Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is thank you for doing that! Emmett
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
"Let's not do that." I would wholeheartedly agree...and that was actually my point. I view this forum as being a place for all things Postfix but only Postfix - not the possible root-cause nor philosophies behind why nomenclature might be the way it is. None of us enjoys a universal right to free expression on this mailer - that is determined by Wietse. And IIRC, last June, Weitse did open this mailer up to more race-related discussion re: Postfix nomenclature but that discussion is over, the changes have been made, and IMO, any further race related discussion here is inappropriate... On 2021-02-24 17:29, Wietse Venema wrote: j...@nunyuh.net: I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to work... We all ready? Let's not do that. I have merely done away with the implication that white (as in whitelist) is better than black (as in blacklist). It is not the end of the world. No-one will be forced to give up their life style. The change is configurable, backwards-compatible by default. Wietse
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
j...@nunyuh.net: > I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the > devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a > forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then > fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to > work... > > We all ready? Let's not do that. I have merely done away with the implication that white (as in whitelist) is better than black (as in blacklist). It is not the end of the world. No-one will be forced to give up their life style. The change is configurable, backwards-compatible by default. Wietse
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to work... We all ready? On 2021-02-24 16:57, Emmett Culley wrote: On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can expect NOTHING to change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" attitude. I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I apologize. But only if you are not. Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is thank you for doing that! Emmett
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao What it the problem people seem to have with honest attempts to address systemic racism in the world and the US especially. We can expect NOTHING to change if we take a "I couldn't be bothered" attitude. I can only assume that if you are complaining about someone else's attempt to begin taking action, then you are a racist. If not, then I apologize. But only if you are not. Yes, it took some effort to make these recent changes, and All I can say is thank you for doing that! Emmett
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050 as originally intended by ministery of truth. Doubleplusgood! Ciao -- https://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Michael Grimm: > /usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf: > unused parameter: respectful_logging=no I tested the code with the name cut-and-pasted and did not notice that the name had a typo. postfix-3.6-20210224 is uploaded to ftp/www.porcupine.org. Wietse
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 08:31:25PM +0100, Michael Grimm wrote:
> mail> postfix reload
> /usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf:
> unused parameter: respectful_logging=no
> postfix/postfix-script: refreshing the Postfix mail system
That appears to be a bug:
--- src/global/mail_params.h
+++ src/global/mail_params.h
@@ -3856,7 +3858,7 @@ extern char *var_psc_uproxy_proto;
#define DEF_PSC_UPROXY_TMOUT "5s"
extern int var_psc_uproxy_tmout;
-#define VAR_RESPECTFUL_LOGGING "postscreen_respecful_logging"
+#define VAR_RESPECTFUL_LOGGING "respectful_logging"
#define DEF_RESPECTFUL_LOGGING \
"${{$compatibility_level}
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 24 Feb 2021, at 10:12, Wietse Venema wrote: > The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes. > Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is > better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', > and variations on those words. Thank you! script execution error (#1): /Users/lbutlr/mysisg: No such file or directory ##
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
[Sorry Wietse, this mail should have gone to the ML instead to your personal
mail address]
Wietse Venema wrote:
> The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes.
I did upgrade to this version today.
> To keep logging the old form, make the setting "respectful_logging =
> no" permanent in main.cf, for example:
>
> # postconf "respectful_logging = no"
> # postfix reload
I did add "respectful_logging = no" to my main.cf, but on "postfix reload" I do
get:
mail> postfix reload
/usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf:
unused parameter: respectful_logging=no
postfix/postfix-script: refreshing the Postfix mail system
A "postconf -d | grep logging" shows:
mail> postconf -d | grep logging
…
postscreen_respecful_logging = ${{$compatibility_level} http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html the writing
is "respec*t*ful", but above postconf's output shows "respecful" in a different
parameter.
I wonder whether my FreeBSD port is broken, or I am getting something
completely wrong?
Regrads,
Michael
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Any chance of terminating this thread -- my disk is only a terabyte. Programmers can call a variable or label whatever they want to. It's one of their perks. And they can change it if they want to. But it's often helpful for the users if they make the change backward compatible, -- Glenn English
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On 24 Feb 2021, at 12:51, John Dale wrote: What are we going to do about actual light and actual dark? There's no reason to stop using "black" and "white" when referring to things that are in an actual optical brightness sense black (or very dark) or white (or very light.) As Wietse said: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. That's a very clear and objective criterion. As Kevin noted, we are making the same improvement in terminology in SpamAssassin, where it is much more technically complex because SA is intrinsically much more judgmental than most software. Also because, unlike Postfix, we detect and pass moral judgment on optical brightness, e.g. detecting black-on-black or white-on-white text as indicators of which we consider a sign of "spam," which is evil (even though some of us are fans of Spam(tm), a product of the Hormel Co. which is both tasty and arguably a moral good, upcycling scrap meat which might otherwise be wasted...) Note the lack of (metaphorically) gray areas. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) Not Currently Available For Hire
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Agreed — While my initial gut reaction is jump in and express myself directly about this change, my better angel (yes, I think I have only one) compels me to understand (a) this forum is not the right place to air any perspective for or against this change; (b) it’s done so get on with it. This is just the most recent example of similar changes at GitHub and elsewhere that will all surely serve as examples of how society is struggling to address issues of race… - - - On 24 Feb 2021, at 10:44, Viktor Dukhovni wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 07:29:18PM +0100, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. -1 FWIW, I also would not have made these changes, and personally think they do more harm than good. That said, the best thing at this point, now that they've been made, is to just ignore them and move on. People are free to choose to shape their language as they fit, so long as they're not requiring me to do the same. So long we all graciously accept our various manners of speach, all's well. -- Viktor.
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
The link is in your mind (not mine) and certainly not in non-sentient software code. Scrubbing language only serves to define and sharpen the distinction in your mind (not mine) and confuse historical development of code (this language policing will be committed to some source repo somewhere with your name on it, not mine, an interesting perspective on how future generations and historians will judge our willingness to tackle truly difficult problems of our era instead of being language police). What's next, an AI reproduction of M*A*S*H episode "To Market, to Market" to remove any offensive unthink? Maybe the real problem is that we've run out of features to build and bugs to fix .. hey, if so, congrats I guess. :D On 2/24/21 11:59 AM, Kenneth Irving wrote: On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. On 24.02.21 19:29, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: -1 I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a waste of time and effort. "Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group of Americans. however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some background (or, worse, prejudice). To undestand any language you must have a background. Deny is a very rude word. Whitelist and blacklist have very definite meaning, which have nothing to do with race. All our experience and interactions are based on prejudice. What's your point? -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
As 'allowlist' and 'denylist' are self-explaning, this is a valuable change as it will save time for newbies in future. Independent if any racist background or not. Thank you, Wietse! Am 24. Februar 2021 19:43:22 MEZ schrieb Kenneth Irving : >Completely agree with Jaroslaw. This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste >of time. > >best regards > >Kenneth > >On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > >> Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: >>> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is >>> better than black. >> >> -1 >> >> I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a >> waste of time and effort. >> >> "Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white >> race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who >> has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the >> world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group >> of Americans. >> >> In my country there is a proverb, which literally translated means "being >> more popish than the Pope himself". This is exactly what happened here. >> -- >> Regards, >> Jaroslaw Rafa >> r...@rafa.eu.org >> -- >> "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there >> was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." >>
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
+1 From: owner-postfix-us...@postfix.org on behalf of Matus UHLAR - fantomas Sent: February 24, 2021 1:51 PM To: postfix-users@postfix.org Subject: Re: Deprecated: white is better than black >Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: >> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is >> better than black. On 24.02.21 19:29, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: >-1 > >I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a >waste of time and effort. > >"Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white >race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who >has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the >world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group >of Americans. however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some background (or, worse, prejudice). -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. On 24.02.21 19:29, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: -1 I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a waste of time and effort. "Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group of Americans. however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some background (or, worse, prejudice). To undestand any language you must have a background. Deny is a very rude word. Whitelist and blacklist have very definite meaning, which have nothing to do with race. All our experience and interactions are based on prejudice. What's your point? -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. On 24.02.21 19:29, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: -1 I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a waste of time and effort. "Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group of Americans. however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some background (or, worse, prejudice). -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. Windows found: (R)emove, (E)rase, (D)elete
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 07:29:18PM +0100, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > > Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is > > better than black. > > -1 FWIW, I also would not have made these changes, and personally think they do more harm than good. That said, the best thing at this point, now that they've been made, is to just ignore them and move on. People are free to choose to shape their language as they fit, so long as they're not requiring me to do the same. So long we all graciously accept our various manners of speach, all's well. -- Viktor.
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Completely agree with Jaroslaw. This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste of time. best regards Kenneth On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. -1 I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a waste of time and effort. "Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group of Americans. In my country there is a proverb, which literally translated means "being more popish than the Pope himself". This is exactly what happened here. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze: > Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is > better than black. -1 I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a waste of time and effort. "Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anything to do with black/white race. Their source is completely different (it's obvious for everyone who has basic cultural and philosophical education), and probably nobody in the world associates it with any racial context, except some oversensitive group of Americans. In my country there is a proverb, which literally translated means "being more popish than the Pope himself". This is exactly what happened here. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
What are we going to do about actual light and actual dark? On 2/24/21 10:37 AM, Curtis Maurand wrote: I totally agree with this and I am going to work to scrub the prior terminology from my system. Thank you, Wietse —Curtis Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Wietse Venema wrote: The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes. Wietse Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. Noel Jones assisted with the initial transition. Changes in documentation Documentation was updated to use 'allowlist', 'denylist', etc. These documentation changes do not affect Postfix behavior. Changes in parameter names -- The following parameters replace names that contain 'blacklist' or 'whitelist': postscreen_allowlist_interfaces postscreen_denylist_action postscreen_dnsbl_allowlist_threshold These new parameters have backwards-compatible default settings that support the old parameter names, so that the name change should not affect Postfix behavior. This means that existing management tools that use the old parameter names should keep working as before. This compatibility safety net may break when some management tools use the new parameter names, and some use the old names, such that different tools will disagree on how Postfix works. Changes in logging -- The following logging replaces forms that contain 'blacklist' or 'whitelist': postfix/postscreen[pid]: ALLOWLIST VETO [address]:port postfix/postscreen[pid]: ALLOWLISTED [address]:port postfix/postscreen[pid]: DENYLISTED [address]:port To avoid breaking logfile analysis tools, Postfix keeps logging the old forms by default, as long as the compatibility_level parameter setting is less than 3.6, and the respectful_logging parameter is not explicitly configured. As a reminder, Postfix will log the following: postfix/postscreen[pid]: Using backwards-compatible default setting respectful_logging=no for client [address]:port To keep logging the old form, make the setting "respectful_logging = no" permanent in main.cf, for example: # postconf "respectful_logging = no" # postfix reload To stop the reminder, configure the respectful_logging parameter to "yes" or "no", or configure "compatibility_level = 3.6".
Re: [External] Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
If it helps with others, the SA project uses WelcomeList and BlockList so you don't have to change acronyms like RBL. Some slides from a talk at https://mcgrail.com/downloads/DevFest%202020%20-%20Removing%20Racially%20Charged%20Language%20from%20Technology%20Speaker%20Presentation%20GDG%20Devfest%20UK%20&%20Ireland%202020%20-%20KAM%20FINAL.pdf might be interesting too. On 2/24/2021 12:37 PM, Curtis Maurand wrote: I totally agree with this and I am going to work to scrub the prior terminology from my system. Thank you, Wietse —Curtis Sent from my iPhone On Feb 24, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Wietse Venema wrote: The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes. Wietse Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', and variations on those words. Noel Jones assisted with the initial transition. Changes in documentation Documentation was updated to use 'allowlist', 'denylist', etc. These documentation changes do not affect Postfix behavior. Changes in parameter names -- The following parameters replace names that contain 'blacklist' or 'whitelist': postscreen_allowlist_interfaces postscreen_denylist_action postscreen_dnsbl_allowlist_threshold These new parameters have backwards-compatible default settings that support the old parameter names, so that the name change should not affect Postfix behavior. This means that existing management tools that use the old parameter names should keep working as before. This compatibility safety net may break when some management tools use the new parameter names, and some use the old names, such that different tools will disagree on how Postfix works. Changes in logging -- The following logging replaces forms that contain 'blacklist' or 'whitelist': postfix/postscreen[pid]: ALLOWLIST VETO [address]:port postfix/postscreen[pid]: ALLOWLISTED [address]:port postfix/postscreen[pid]: DENYLISTED [address]:port To avoid breaking logfile analysis tools, Postfix keeps logging the old forms by default, as long as the compatibility_level parameter setting is less than 3.6, and the respectful_logging parameter is not explicitly configured. As a reminder, Postfix will log the following: postfix/postscreen[pid]: Using backwards-compatible default setting respectful_logging=no for client [address]:port To keep logging the old form, make the setting "respectful_logging = no" permanent in main.cf, for example: # postconf "respectful_logging = no" # postfix reload To stop the reminder, configure the respectful_logging parameter to "yes" or "no", or configure "compatibility_level = 3.6". -- *Kevin A. McGrail* /CEO Emeritus/ *Peregrine Computer Consultants Corporation* +1.703.798.0171 kmcgr...@pccc.com https://pccc.com/ https://raptoremailsecurity.com 10311 Cascade Lane, Fairfax, Virginia 22032-2357 USA
Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
I totally agree with this and I am going to work to scrub the prior terminology from my system. Thank you, Wietse —Curtis Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 24, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Wietse Venema wrote: > > The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes. > >Wietse > > Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is > better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist', > and variations on those words. > > Noel Jones assisted with the initial transition. > > Changes in documentation > > > Documentation was updated to use 'allowlist', 'denylist', etc. > These documentation changes do not affect Postfix behavior. > > Changes in parameter names > -- > > The following parameters replace names that contain 'blacklist' or > 'whitelist': > >postscreen_allowlist_interfaces >postscreen_denylist_action >postscreen_dnsbl_allowlist_threshold > > These new parameters have backwards-compatible default settings > that support the old parameter names, so that the name change should > not affect Postfix behavior. This means that existing management tools > that use the old parameter names should keep working as before. > > This compatibility safety net may break when some management tools > use the new parameter names, and some use the old names, such that > different tools will disagree on how Postfix works. > > Changes in logging > -- > > The following logging replaces forms that contain 'blacklist' or > 'whitelist': > >postfix/postscreen[pid]: ALLOWLIST VETO [address]:port >postfix/postscreen[pid]: ALLOWLISTED [address]:port >postfix/postscreen[pid]: DENYLISTED [address]:port > > To avoid breaking logfile analysis tools, Postfix keeps logging the old > forms by default, as long as the compatibility_level parameter setting > is less than 3.6, and the respectful_logging parameter is not explicitly > configured. As a reminder, Postfix will log the following: > >postfix/postscreen[pid]: Using backwards-compatible default setting >respectful_logging=no for client [address]:port > > To keep logging the old form, make the setting "respectful_logging = > no" permanent in main.cf, for example: > ># postconf "respectful_logging = no" ># postfix reload > > To stop the reminder, configure the respectful_logging parameter to > "yes" or "no", or configure "compatibility_level = 3.6".
