Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On 07/07/2010 08:02 PM, Phil Howard wrote: On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:48, Jeroen Geilmanjer...@adaptr.nl wrote: I would suggest using a distribution or OS that allows you to configure postfix properly. Name it. Okay, I may have been baiting a bit there. The obvious inference is that you need to know your distro in order to be able to do anything useful with it. If that causes issues, that distribution's support is your first port of call, NOT a distribution-agnostic support list. If you have sufficient knowledge of your chosen distribution, postfix works fine on any distro. Anything that interferes with that is not worth the effort. Which do you use? I use Ubuntu; I like the packaging methodology, and it saves me time with respect to upgrades and dependencies. However, I do not use any dpkg configuration that comes with it. I read the *postfix* documentation for any issues I have, and I don't demand that the postfix documentation offers fill-in-the-blanks solutions for issues raised by the distribution I use. Regardless, no specific distribution will be supported here. Maybe if you had read the background information instead of going bla bla bla you would have understood what the purpose of all this is. Who better to know what OS/distro works better with Postfix that those who actually use it? I did not see any background information related to postfix. Perhaps if you, instead, had asked a postfix-related question, such as a specific issue you were having, then it could be answered in a distribution-agnostic way. If there are any known gotchas with specific OSes, these will be noted in the documentation where applicable. Does that include things like easier to maintain Postfix? ... doesn't interfere with Postfix? How about a summary? No, it includes specific incompatibilties or things you might need to be aware of. Note that for the purposes of such documentation, Linux is one OS. This will be with Dovecot as the IMAP end. Again, utterly not postfix related. Actually, it is related. But apparently you probably figure that if anything involves 2 or more pieces of software, it's only related to the other pieces (whichever they happen to be). No, dovecot is an IMAP server with SASL capabilities. Neither involve postfix directly. (I'll be mogadored if I can find a postfix question anywhere in there) Why did you bother responding if you have such a narrow view that you cannot see it? Do you actually like to show off how arrogant you can be? There was, simply, no postfix-specific question in your post. I could replace every mention of the word postfix with emacs, and it would come out exactly the same. J.
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
* Jeroen Geilman jer...@adaptr.nl wrote: Why did you bother responding if you have such a narrow view that you cannot see it? Do you actually like to show off how arrogant you can be? There was, simply, no postfix-specific question in your post Agreed. I could replace every mention of the word postfix with emacs, and it would come out exactly the same. Ohhh, but the replies would have been very, very different ;-) I can only vouch for postfix on slackware. I admin a few machines, both private and work related. it just works for me. YMMV. postfix versions 2.6.x (sasl configs via cyrus, +tls) and slackware 12.2 up to and including 13.1. average mailings vary from 1k to up to 25k per day, users vary from 4 to 37 per setup atm. ALso, I can only stress what has been said already: get your distro shit together; go along with your hunch about slackware, ask slackware specific questions on a slackware mailinglist/usenet group, and post postfix problems (which you researched yourself but couldnt solve on your own) in here. that said ... enjoy the view. -- left blank, right bald pgpzUSlU1kuXz.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 08:30, Jeroen Geilman jer...@adaptr.nl wrote: Okay, I may have been baiting a bit there. The obvious inference is that you need to know your distro in order to be able to do anything useful with it. If that causes issues, that distribution's support is your first port of call, NOT a distribution-agnostic support list. If you have sufficient knowledge of your chosen distribution, postfix works fine on any distro. What you are suggesting is a level of distribution knowledge beyond what an administrator-user would normally know. The level needed for this would be distribution package maintainer level. I'm not a distribution package maintainer and do not feel I need to become that. This is strictly an interaction issue between component A and component B ... where in this case one of them is Postfix. And what I asked about was multiple instances of the component that is not Postfix, which means Postfix is the common element across all relations in the map. I use Ubuntu; I like the packaging methodology, and it saves me time with respect to upgrades and dependencies. However, I do not use any dpkg configuration that comes with it. I read the *postfix* documentation for any issues I have, and I don't demand that the postfix documentation offers fill-in-the-blanks solutions for issues raised by the distribution I use. So I'll take your answer to my question as I suggest Ubuntu which has worked fine for me. I did not see any background information related to postfix. Background is for perspective. You should read it as such. Perhaps if you, instead, had asked a postfix-related question, such as a specific issue you were having, then it could be answered in a distribution-agnostic way. Suggest another distribution-agnostic mailing list or forum for asking what amounts to which is the best distro for Postfix to run on with the least troubles. That can't be a distribution-specific mailing list or forum. No, it includes specific incompatibilties or things you might need to be aware of. Note that for the purposes of such documentation, Linux is one OS. Realities are that distributions do differ, sometimes nearly as much as BSD vs. Linux vs. Solaris, etc. No, dovecot is an IMAP server with SASL capabilities. Neither involve postfix directly. When they fail to work together, tell me specifically which is at fault. Or maybe you expect the poster to figure out the problem before asking. There was, simply, no postfix-specific question in your post. I could replace every mention of the word postfix with emacs, and it would come out exactly the same. I take it you believe that when asking about the relationship between component A and component B, one should never assume that it is ever specific to either component A or component B, which then leaves one in a gap where no one in component A or component B support cares to answer (if they are like you are). So what was my question specific to, if not Postfix? It certainly was not specific to any distro. Postfix was the common element. -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:40, markus reichelt m...@mareichelt.com wrote: ALso, I can only stress what has been said already: get your distro shit together; go along with your hunch about slackware, ask slackware specific questions on a slackware mailinglist/usenet group, and post postfix problems (which you researched yourself but couldnt solve on your own) in here. If one asks How well does Postfix perform on Slackware ... on a Slackware list/forum ... better hope Jeroen isn't on that list/forum. -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
Phil Howard wrote (on Thu, Jul 08, 2010 at 12:10:39PM -0400): On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:40, markus reichelt m...@mareichelt.com wrote: ALso, I can only stress what has been said already: get your distro shit together; go along with your hunch about slackware, ask slackware specific questions on a slackware mailinglist/usenet group, and post postfix problems (which you researched yourself but couldnt solve on your own) in here. If one asks How well does Postfix perform on Slackware ... on a Slackware list/forum ... better hope Jeroen isn't on that list/forum. -- sHiFt HaPpEnS! (I've installed PF on half a dozen Ubuntu boxes, with no hiccups significant enough to remember.) What I would say is that the differences between distros only involve setup and maybe maintenance, and do not involve performance, so that utlimately, what extra effort there is is only pocket change to sysadmins. Now, if someone would come forward with a claim that, PF runs 10% slower/faster etc. on RH vs. Suse, I'm sure the list maintainers would be ALL over it. -- _ Nachman Yaakov Ziskind, FSPA, LLM aw...@ziskind.us Attorney and Counselor-at-Law http://ziskind.us Economic Group Pension Services http://egps.com Actuaries and Employee Benefit Consultants
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 12:15, N. Yaakov Ziskind aw...@ziskind.us wrote: (I've installed PF on half a dozen Ubuntu boxes, with no hiccups significant enough to remember.) What I would say is that the differences between distros only involve setup and maybe maintenance, and do not involve performance, so that utlimately, what extra effort there is is only pocket change to sysadmins. I guess you mean performance in terms of speed. I'm looking for the bigger picture, to include reliability, effective interoperability, administrator maintenance time, etc. Now, if someone would come forward with a claim that, PF runs 10% slower/faster etc. on RH vs. Suse, I'm sure the list maintainers would be ALL over it. In what way? If everything was slower on distro XYZ, I'd say that's an XYZ issue. If distros tend to be uniform but Postfix varies, then I'd wonder about Postfix. But I'm really right in the middle trying to figure it out. -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
* Phil Howard ttip...@gmail.com wrote: A single user scares you? Good heavens. So what was my question specific to, if not Postfix? It certainly was not specific to any distro. Postfix was the common element. You are looking for the silver bullet in times when there's only a golden child. (pardon my pun) I really don't get WHY you don't just go with your fav distro and configure postfix, with or without help from your distro community. You do that and have troubles with postfix, come back here. (...)³ I rest my case. -- left blank, right bald pgplGxPmwvDek.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 15:04, markus reichelt m...@mareichelt.com wrote: * Phil Howard ttip...@gmail.com wrote: A single user scares you? Good heavens. So what was my question specific to, if not Postfix? It certainly was not specific to any distro. Postfix was the common element. You are looking for the silver bullet in times when there's only a golden child. (pardon my pun) I really don't get WHY you don't just go with your fav distro and configure postfix, with or without help from your distro community. You do that and have troubles with postfix, come back here. I wanted to get input on it. I'm still on the fence about making that change at work. The kind of input I was hoping was something that indicated general ease of setup from an administrative perspective. If the feedback with Ubuntu is that it works fine, then I'd consider staying on it and bug the Ubuntu people about why it's goofy for some people (yeah, yeah, maybe I did something wrong on it ... twice, now). And maybe people are having good success compiling from source on Ubuntu (so they are on the latest version of Postfix). But that is a more general problem I and others have had with Ubuntu, with no solutions ... I only mentioned it before to make it understood why I was looking for other ways. -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
Phil Howard wrote: I wanted to get input on it. I'm still on the fence about making that change at work. The kind of input I was hoping was something that indicated general ease of setup from an administrative perspective. If the feedback with Ubuntu is that it works fine, then I'd consider staying on it and bug the Ubuntu people about why it's goofy for some people (yeah, yeah, maybe I did something wrong on it ... twice, now). And maybe people are having good success compiling from source on Ubuntu (so they are on the latest version of Postfix). But that is a more general problem I and others have had with Ubuntu, with no solutions ... I only mentioned it before to make it understood why I was looking for other ways. I hear what you're saying - but IMHO the main thing is being comfortable with, and knowledgeable enough of whatever distro you're using. I support SLES servers at $BIG_CO; I'm comfortable with SLES, and I make rpms of the latest and greatest postfix to replace the outdated versions they tend to ship. I can tell you that postfix runs beautifully on SLES. In my own shop, and for my consulting, I work with ubuntu server for the most part. I'm comfortable with ubuntu, and I make deb packages of the latest and greatest postfix. Again, I can tell you that postfix runs beautifully on ubuntu server. Just try pick a distro you know and are comfortable with, and go with it. Regardless, postfix is postfix. Joe
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On 07/08/2010 06:10 PM, Phil Howard wrote: On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 10:40, markus reicheltm...@mareichelt.com wrote: ALso, I can only stress what has been said already: get your distro shit together; go along with your hunch about slackware, ask slackware specific questions on a slackware mailinglist/usenet group, and post postfix problems (which you researched yourself but couldnt solve on your own) in here. If one asks How well does Postfix perform on Slackware ... on a Slackware list/forum ... better hope Jeroen isn't on that list/forum. I would have to say I don't know, because as already indicated, I run postfix on Ubuntu. However, I do frequent slackware forums. J.
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On 07/07/2010 05:25 PM, Phil Howard wrote: I am finally putting together a test mail server (something I wish I had when putting together the first mail server, but lack of hardware due to lack of funding flow limited that). But now I have another machine. But I am still seeing all the issues I had before with Ubuntu. At first I tried to install an identical Ubuntu system as before (based on 9.10 because that was current at the time of the first mail server). Most of the issues are related to packaging (for example, cannot uninstall a package because one of the config files it's trying to delete does not exist ... touched it to make it exist and then it happily removes the package). Bla bla bla.. unrelated to postfix. Anyway ... I am considering expediting a switch to another distribution. Or maybe just the latest version of Ubuntu. Personally, I favor Slackware, since it is friendlier to installing packages from upstream source (so I have the latest version). But I will need to make a justification to management to add Slackware to our mix (which is currently Centos, Debian, Fedora, and Ubuntu). More bla bla bla.. unrelated to postfix. I want to get away from hand holding distribution packaging systems ... too many bruises on my hands from that. What I'd like to find out is what are known issues Postfix has with these or other distributions (even if, and especially if, the distribution itself is the cause of the issue). Also, does anyone know a general rough estimate of the proportions of existing distribution deployments to host Postfix? What distributions do the heavier Postfix admins use? FYI, BSD is not ruled out, either. I would suggest using a distribution or OS that allows you to configure postfix properly. Anything that interferes with that is not worth the effort. Regardless, no specific distribution will be supported here. If there are any known gotchas with specific OSes, these will be noted in the documentation where applicable. This will be with Dovecot as the IMAP end. Again, utterly not postfix related. J. (I'll be mogadored if I can find a postfix question anywhere in there)
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:48, Jeroen Geilman jer...@adaptr.nl wrote: I would suggest using a distribution or OS that allows you to configure postfix properly. Name it. Anything that interferes with that is not worth the effort. Which do you use? Regardless, no specific distribution will be supported here. Maybe if you had read the background information instead of going bla bla bla you would have understood what the purpose of all this is. Who better to know what OS/distro works better with Postfix that those who actually use it? If there are any known gotchas with specific OSes, these will be noted in the documentation where applicable. Does that include things like easier to maintain Postfix? ... doesn't interfere with Postfix? How about a summary? This will be with Dovecot as the IMAP end. Again, utterly not postfix related. Actually, it is related. But apparently you probably figure that if anything involves 2 or more pieces of software, it's only related to the other pieces (whichever they happen to be). (I'll be mogadored if I can find a postfix question anywhere in there) Why did you bother responding if you have such a narrow view that you cannot see it? Do you actually like to show off how arrogant you can be? -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On 2010-07-07 2:02 PM, Phil Howard wrote: On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:48, Jeroen Geilman jer...@adaptr.nl wrote: I would suggest using a distribution or OS that allows you to configure postfix properly. Name it. All of them? Anything that interferes with that is not worth the effort. Which do you use? Gentoo... Regardless, no specific distribution will be supported here. Who better to know what OS/distro works better with Postfix that those who actually use it? It is a meaningless question. They all work equally well, as long as you know how to configure it within the confines of the OS you are working with. And it is usually best to go first to the support list for the OS you are using to ask questions, to make sure the problem isn't due to some OS and/or packaging quirk/customization, and only come here once you've determined the problem is likely a basic (or advanced) postfix config issue. If there are any known gotchas with specific OSes, these will be noted in the documentation where applicable. Does that include things like easier to maintain Postfix? ... doesn't interfere with Postfix? How about a summary? Do you seriously expect a meaningful answer to such a broad question on a mail list? Ok, well, if you must have an answer, it is 42. http://tinyurl.com/2e3fbgf -- Best regards, Charles
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 14:30, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: On 2010-07-07 2:02 PM, Phil Howard wrote: On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:48, Jeroen Geilman jer...@adaptr.nl wrote: I would suggest using a distribution or OS that allows you to configure postfix properly. Name it. All of them? No. Clearly not the case. Ubuntu is an example which interferes with Postfix. I'm trying to determine if others are more or less so. I suspect at least some surely must be less so. Anything that interferes with that is not worth the effort. Which do you use? Gentoo... OK. I'll include that in consideration. Regardless, no specific distribution will be supported here. Who better to know what OS/distro works better with Postfix that those who actually use it? It is a meaningless question. They all work equally well, as long as you know how to configure it within the confines of the OS you are working with. And it is usually best to go first to the support list for the OS you are using to ask questions, to make sure the problem isn't due to some OS and/or packaging quirk/customization, and only come here once you've determined the problem is likely a basic (or advanced) postfix config issue. Ubuntu works reasonably OK with everything else I've used on it. Problem exist with Postfix on it. They've said to address it with Postfix. I personally think the specific problems are more of how Ubuntu handles Postfix poorly. One issue (which may be part of the problem) is the Postfix package in Ubuntu being an older one. If there are any known gotchas with specific OSes, these will be noted in the documentation where applicable. Does that include things like easier to maintain Postfix? ... doesn't interfere with Postfix? How about a summary? Do you seriously expect a meaningful answer to such a broad question on a mail list? Where's the Postfix support web forum, then? Since the mailing list is the only real place with lost of Postfix experts, this must be the place. My question is a question about using Postfix. I thought this was the postfix-users mailing list. Or did my subscription get crosswired to the postfix-developers mailing list? Ok, well, if you must have an answer, it is 42. Oh, I thought you were saying it was Gentoo. -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wednesday, July 07, 2010 14:42:29 Phil Howard wrote: Ubuntu works reasonably OK with everything else I've used on it. Problem exist with Postfix on it. They've said to address it with Postfix. I personally think the specific problems are more of how Ubuntu handles Postfix poorly. One issue (which may be part of the problem) is the Postfix package in Ubuntu being an older one. No. It really doesn't. If you don't understand how to use your distro package management system, you should seek help in a distro specific venue. Scott K
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
Phil Howard wrote: No. Clearly not the case. Ubuntu is an example which interferes with Postfix. I'm trying to determine if others are more or less so. I suspect at least some surely must be less so. No FUD please. I've deployed smtp servers running hpux, solaris, slackware, redhat, fedora, SuSE, debian, ubuntu and others - as someone just pointed out, having some knowledge of the platform you're running postfix on is rather important. I currently run a number of production mail servers on ubuntu LTS and have never seen any of the problems you're struggling with. Joe
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 15:00, Scott Kitterman post...@kitterman.com wrote: On Wednesday, July 07, 2010 14:42:29 Phil Howard wrote: Ubuntu works reasonably OK with everything else I've used on it. Problem exist with Postfix on it. They've said to address it with Postfix. I personally think the specific problems are more of how Ubuntu handles Postfix poorly. One issue (which may be part of the problem) is the Postfix package in Ubuntu being an older one. No. It really doesn't. If you don't understand how to use your distro package management system, you should seek help in a distro specific venue. BTDT. They say it's not a distro specific issue. I don't know if I agree with them or not. But I am considering abandoning that distro. If Postfix people's experience was that the distro does not have such issues with Postfix, then it might be worthwhile pursuing that issue with them (the distro people) further. Quite possibly it is the person who makes the Postfix package not doing thing right with respect to either Postfix and/or Ubuntu. But I might also seek another distro. It has already been said here that I should run the latest version of Postfix. That would be compiling from source since the latest is not packaged in the distro. In general, that's not a problem. But it is to a certain degree a problem in some distros (and why this is, certainly is not a Postfix issue ... I have experienced the problem with other than Postfix). I'm just saying that so you know why I'm also looking away from Ubuntu (please do not assume I am asking you to fix those Ubuntu issues). How about simply, which distro various Postfix users are running? -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 15:11, Joe j...@tmsusa.com wrote: I currently run a number of production mail servers on ubuntu LTS and have never seen any of the problems you're struggling with. Are you using the packaged version of Postfix, or the source you compile yourself? -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 15:14, Gary Chambers gwch...@gmail.com wrote: No. Clearly not the case. Ubuntu is an example which interferes with Postfix. I'm trying to determine if others are more or less so. I suspect at least some surely must be less so. Why not simply avoid whatever hassles you're encountering with your distribution's version of the software and compile your own? I'd like PostgreSQL support in Ubuntu Server 10.04 LTS, but I didn't come to the list to ask for it. Compiling my own is indeed an option. But to get there, I have to make the commitment to jump distributions (because of distribution specific issues that are not Postfix specific). The question (not to this list ... one I have to find the answer to, which is going to involve collecting information from a number of sources) is whether that approach will involve the least issues compared to other approaches (such as staying with this distro, or using another, etc). -- sHiFt HaPpEnS!
OFFLIST - Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wednesday, July 07, 2010 15:13:00 Phil Howard wrote: On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 15:00, Scott Kitterman post...@kitterman.com wrote: On Wednesday, July 07, 2010 14:42:29 Phil Howard wrote: Ubuntu works reasonably OK with everything else I've used on it. Problem exist with Postfix on it. They've said to address it with Postfix. I personally think the specific problems are more of how Ubuntu handles Postfix poorly. One issue (which may be part of the problem) is the Postfix package in Ubuntu being an older one. No. It really doesn't. If you don't understand how to use your distro package management system, you should seek help in a distro specific venue. BTDT. They say it's not a distro specific issue. I don't know if I agree with them or not. But I am considering abandoning that distro. If Postfix people's experience was that the distro does not have such issues with Postfix, then it might be worthwhile pursuing that issue with them (the distro people) further. Quite possibly it is the person who makes the Postfix package not doing thing right with respect to either Postfix and/or Ubuntu. But I might also seek another distro. It has already been said here that I should run the latest version of Postfix. That would be compiling from source since the latest is not packaged in the distro. In general, that's not a problem. But it is to a certain degree a problem in some distros (and why this is, certainly is not a Postfix issue ... I have experienced the problem with other than Postfix). I'm just saying that so you know why I'm also looking away from Ubuntu (please do not assume I am asking you to fix those Ubuntu issues). How about simply, which distro various Postfix users are running? Who is They and what exactly is the issue? In addition to running a number of mail servers with Postfix on Ubuntu, I'm also an Ubuntu developer and I can look into it. Scott K
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
On Wednesday, July 07, 2010 15:14:08 Gary Chambers wrote: No. Clearly not the case. Ubuntu is an example which interferes with Postfix. I'm trying to determine if others are more or less so. I suspect at least some surely must be less so. Why not simply avoid whatever hassles you're encountering with your distribution's version of the software and compile your own? I'd like PostgreSQL support in Ubuntu Server 10.04 LTS, but I didn't come to the list to ask for it. Just so the archives have the correct information about this: sudo apt-get install postfix-pgsql is all that's needed for PostgreSQL support in Ubuntu Server 10.04 LTS. Scott K
Re: distribution issues with Postfix
Phil Howard wrote: On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 15:11, Joe j...@tmsusa.com wrote: I currently run a number of production mail servers on ubuntu LTS and have never seen any of the problems you're struggling with. Are you using the packaged version of Postfix, or the source you compile yourself? I almost never install tarballs, but prefer to take the time to find or make a deb package if at all possible, because of the manageability added by the packaging system. The stock postfix package included with ubuntu has worked well for me, no surprises, no problems, either with the postfix 2.5.1 package that came with ubuntu 8.04, or the postfix 2.7.0 package that came with ubuntu 10.04. It shouldn't be too much trouble to build a package of say 2.7.0 from 10.04, for installation in a 8.04 system. There are also repositories with ready-to-install, newer versions of postfix, if you need them. BTW it's best to use one of the currently supported LTS server versions which I mentioned above, rather than a release like 9.10. Joe
