Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
> "Henry" == Henry R writes: > I was once charter's customer. > But I leave them since charter was bought by Spectrum. > And spectrum blocks all IP from DO and Linode. Yup, so now I'm trying to setup things so that my postfix routes all emails to @charter.net users via my charter login, but all others default to normal MX lookups and email sending. I've got my saslpass, transport_maps and other stuff setup, but it's not quite working. More reading and re-reading of the docs and this list's archives, since I know this has come up before. John
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
I was once charter's customer. But I leave them since charter was bought by Spectrum. And spectrum blocks all IP from DO and Linode. Thanks > > > > > "Henry" == Henry R writes: > > > > My mailserver once had some issues on sending messages to different > > providers. I have contacted the provders and most of them were kind > > enough to resolve the blocking issue. Thanks for them (ATT, GMX, > > 1and1 etc). > > > > I'm in the same boat with one provider, charter.net, to shame them > publicly. They block my mail host (with proper SPF records, reverse > DNS) mail.stoffel.org for some reason. Probably because the block all > of linode's address space. Jerks. > > > > > But t-online.de keep blocking me. I have contacted them twice and got the > > same answer: > > > > We only allow evidently commercial or similar operators to connect > > to our mailservers. So, as a private user please use an SMTP relay > > or e-mail gateway of your hoster or ISP, that you can use as part of > > your contract with them. Their support will surely help you to > > configure your system accordingly. > > > > Oh well... > > > > > That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send > > messages to them. But there are many small companies/org who have > > their own mailservers, which can't send messages to t-online > > directly. > > > > How do you think of this behavior? > > > > It sucks big time. But unfortunately I can see more and more large > providers going this route. > > I wonder if they block hosts in the .edu domains as well like this? >
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
The issue has been resolved by getting reply from t-online: "We will unblock your IP. Please notice that it may take up to 24 hours until the change shows acute effect. Please excuse any inconveniences, but we do not see other possibilities to react to the millions of junkmails we receive at present. Thank you for your appreciation." Thank you buddies. Henry > > Those are obligations for web sites. But what about a mail sending domain > without web site ? >
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
> "Henry" == Henry R writes: > My mailserver once had some issues on sending messages to different > providers. I have contacted the provders and most of them were kind > enough to resolve the blocking issue. Thanks for them (ATT, GMX, > 1and1 etc). I'm in the same boat with one provider, charter.net, to shame them publicly. They block my mail host (with proper SPF records, reverse DNS) mail.stoffel.org for some reason. Probably because the block all of linode's address space. Jerks. > But t-online.de keep blocking me. I have contacted them twice and got the > same answer: > We only allow evidently commercial or similar operators to connect > to our mailservers. So, as a private user please use an SMTP relay > or e-mail gateway of your hoster or ISP, that you can use as part of > your contract with them. Their support will surely help you to > configure your system accordingly. Oh well... > That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send > messages to them. But there are many small companies/org who have > their own mailservers, which can't send messages to t-online > directly. > How do you think of this behavior? It sucks big time. But unfortunately I can see more and more large providers going this route. I wonder if they block hosts in the .edu domains as well like this?
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
> Those are obligations for web sites. But what about a mail sending domain > without web site ? As far as I'm aware there is no obligation (by law) to provide a website with legal info for e-mail only domains. Companies in Germany are required to include that information inside *every* email anyway (usually in footer). T-online wants to know your mailserver's ip addresses, checks matching forward/reverse dns and (usually) a website within your mailserver's domain with legal info - this is all about your mailserver. You do not have to provide this info for customer domains relayed through your mailserver. Best regards Gerald
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
Dnia 30.11.2022 o godz. 16:45:02 Gerald Galster pisze:
>
> I'm not a lawyer but this should be part of local legislation in every
> country of the European Union (e-commerce directive):
>
> https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32000L0031=EN
>
> Article 5
>
> 1. In addition to other information requirements established by Community law,
> Member States shall ensure that the service provider shall render easily,
> directly and permanently accessible to the recipients of the service and
> competent authorities, at least the following information:
But there is different understanding of who is a "service provider" in
various local jurisidictions.
>From what I know, in Germany everyone having a website (even a purely
private one) is considered a "service provider" and therefore must have the
mentioned information on their website. Maybe it can be applied to everyone
having a mail server (which is able to receive mail) as well.
In Poland, where I live, our Electronic Services Act ("Ustawa o świadczeniu
usług drogą elektroniczną"), which regulates this, clearly says that only an
entity which provides services electronically to customers as a part of
business activity (these services can be free for customers, but must
be a part of a business that generates revenue in other way - eg. via ads)
may be considered a "service provider" with regard to this regulation. This
seems much more reasonable for me than the German approach.
--
Regards,
Jaroslaw Rafa
r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
Those are obligations for web sites. But what about a mail sending domain without web site ?
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
> Dnia 30.11.2022 o godz. 23:41:53 Nikolai Lusan pisze: >> >> My question is: How do they deal with non-european entities who do not >> have such legal impediments in their jurisdiction? > > While it is actually a legal requirement *in Germany* (not in whole Europe!) > and for *German* websites to have such an imprint in general, in this case [This is not postfix-related, so I won't comment further] I'm not a lawyer but this should be part of local legislation in every country of the European Union (e-commerce directive): https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32000L0031=EN Article 5 1. In addition to other information requirements established by Community law, Member States shall ensure that the service provider shall render easily, directly and permanently accessible to the recipients of the service and competent authorities, at least the following information: (a) the name of the service provider; (b) the geographic address at which the service provider is established; (c) the details of the service provider, including his electronic mail address, which allow him to be contacted rapidly and communicated with in a direct and effective manner; [...] > it seems to have actually nothing to do with legislation - there is no such > legal requirement for mail senders, and they seem just to pick up an > existing legal construction and put it into their own requirements for mail > senders. So you either comply to their requirement or the don't accept mail > from you. Right, in this case it is solely a t-online requirement. The mentioned mailop thread can be found here: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailop@mailop.org/msg17702.html Best regards Gerald
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
Dnia 30.11.2022 o godz. 23:41:53 Nikolai Lusan pisze: > > My question is: How do they deal with non-european entities who do not > have such legal impediments in their jurisdiction? While it is actually a legal requirement *in Germany* (not in whole Europe!) and for *German* websites to have such an imprint in general, in this case it seems to have actually nothing to do with legislation - there is no such legal requirement for mail senders, and they seem just to pick up an existing legal construction and put it into their own requirements for mail senders. So you either comply to their requirement or the don't accept mail from you. > Also what exact check > are they running? Do they verify the addresses and phone numbers at > all? As I can understand from the discussion on "mailop" list, they don't seem to be actually verifying anything. They only check if the imprint is present and the data looks plausible, ie. isn't obviously fake :) > I am pretty sure most Australian companies would fail to meet this > criteria (for example I just look at the Telstra - > https://www.telstra.com.au - website and I can't see where Australias > largest telecommunications operator fails this test, and I'd hate to > think of the number of Telstra customers that would fail to send email > to these mail servers (most of who would get belligerent at bounced > email). I guess they are just accepting large and "well-known" senders. But for small senders, you have to go to the process described. > I know that I don't want to, and am not required to, provide > that information for any of my domains, or domains that I host for other > entities. Me neither :). Someone recently reported on the "mailop" list that he managed to unblock several servers without the need to provide the imprint - so it looks they don't always enforce this requirement, but usually they do. If you want to discuss more about this topic, I suggest you join the discussion on "mailop" list, as it is quite active there: https://www.mailop.org/ (btw. this site has an imprint - called "impressum" in German - and it lists a New Zealand address) -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Wed, 2022-11-30 at 13:15 +0100, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > From the discussion on that list it turns out, that the condition > under > which they consider a server to be "commercial" is to provide so > called > "imprint" on the website associated with the domain, with full contact > details (your name, street address and telephone number!). After you > request > that they unblock your IP, they check manually for existence of that > "imprint", and if it satisfies their requirements, they'll unblock > you. My question is: How do they deal with non-european entities who do not have such legal impediments in their jurisdiction? Also what exact check are they running? Do they verify the addresses and phone numbers at all?I am pretty sure most Australian companies would fail to meet this criteria (for example I just look at the Telstra - https://www.telstra.com.au - website and I can't see where Australias largest telecommunications operator fails this test, and I'd hate to think of the number of Telstra customers that would fail to send email to these mail servers (most of who would get belligerent at bounced email). I know that I don't want to, and am not required to, provide that information for any of my domains, or domains that I host for other entities. This just highlights the problems with internet, and general IT, related legislation/regulation. Another example of a problematic issue is a requirement by the Australian government for anyone working on products that use encryption to insert a backdoor that law enforcement can activate if requested - a requirement that after legislated saw many Australian companies offshore work. - -- Nikolai Lusan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEVfd4GW6z4nsBxdLo4ZaDRV2VL6QFAmOHXaEACgkQ4ZaDRV2V L6Q3Qg/+OzWVAVBCZrS0SmvLm0cYQHvVnFf35ucIs8PzZ+vGtoc59iZjw+dbo8/p ZpEV4sY/jdI4d//owTTJgpNLpEwcnrmk6X6yAno2TBqqB0OURJJ/ueIRpPtkuUlW YB0Dv3qJwS5oRW1t0572W5xSDz6A+AYA1WYhD/TTMftQnBzlPOcDTqVjWKxxy6bg jCgLyLuZFSXZlxW5g2TNVnqVk3P3E9h1FPqNYRP75oIPKbcqIZG4wxmqFBJuMs+n pR6g3tpx+BMzGHbPxS/PVZiC8+hFjnE32Lw5U/MidU4fsUPai6KkcEJaWO+6g6sn Mdm+k+yhczqYkd3lBYZBtSB7+6Q7r0pTKtpudjvfmsTmHedossxSCkjc0XT/kaaE +SKF4yMYMAlC1QB4l3IBfdrD37EaZ5UpAAAIGEP++S9fqBB4rMLLnOQDOQnOSGk3 KLPYTZ8ebQ+M3XiMDEpKEUQuDMvimOrJ1DB0flM13l6senXUV1pHZadovo6t+gfv 0zBcaf3JWIO1/wFae5voB9jnRfWytxZYA03lGShj2ZYOYxOMpgGeNDWLPEbbhJdR fuTXrXs9Bqg6MnayPE9E9YvZZPOaCRXleXOtFYXvSM6f0BDyEAeA0tDacbIZHDW/ 4xeSHHCqyHv76J7V0vnEkgNocsd1sjmIpcgbT2Hapz/GBZlqabI= =hL0i -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
Thank you Jaroslaw. following your suggestion i am giving another try. > > Dnia 30.11.2022 o godz. 02:08:57 Henry R pisze: > > > > > That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send messages > > to them. > > But there are many small companies/org who have their own mailservers, > > which can't send messages to t-online directly. > > > > How do you think of this behavior? > > > > This has been discussed a lot on "mailop" list recently. > Yes, they do have a strange policy indeed. Probably no other large email > provider behaves like this. > From the discussion on that list it turns out, that the condition under > which they consider a server to be "commercial" is to provide so called > "imprint" on the website associated with the domain, with full contact > details (your name, street address and telephone number!). After you request > that they unblock your IP, they check manually for existence of that > "imprint", and if it satisfies their requirements, they'll unblock you. > -- > Regards, > Jaroslaw Rafa > r...@rafa.eu.org > -- > "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there > was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub." >
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
Dnia 30.11.2022 o godz. 02:08:57 Henry R pisze: > That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send messages > to them. > But there are many small companies/org who have their own mailservers, which > can't send messages to t-online directly. > > How do you think of this behavior? This has been discussed a lot on "mailop" list recently. Yes, they do have a strange policy indeed. Probably no other large email provider behaves like this. >From the discussion on that list it turns out, that the condition under which they consider a server to be "commercial" is to provide so called "imprint" on the website associated with the domain, with full contact details (your name, street address and telephone number!). After you request that they unblock your IP, they check manually for existence of that "imprint", and if it satisfies their requirements, they'll unblock you. -- Regards, Jaroslaw Rafa r...@rafa.eu.org -- "In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
Thank you very much. i will improve my site to fill their requirement. > > > > > But t-online.de keep blocking me. I have contacted them twice and got the > > same answer: > > > > We only allow evidently commercial or similar operators to connect to > > our mailservers. So, as a private user please use an SMTP relay or > > e-mail gateway of your hoster or ISP, that you can use as part of your > > contract with them. Their support will surely help you to configure your > > system accordingly. > > > > It is common that even german datacenter ip-addresses are blocked by t-online, > but they are usually fast to respond and unblock, given sufficent legal info. > > You should qualify for "commercial or similar operator" but you don't tell > them who you are: > > https://openmbox.net/contact.html > "Henry R, who has 10+ years experience in email industry, owns and operates > the platform." > > "Henry R" is lacking full name, adress, phone number, ... > > Non-private websites require a site notice (also called legal info or imprint) > in Germany / European Union, mentioning a person that is legally responsible. > Providing an email service to anybody is probably considered commercial, even > if you don't do it for profit. > > Most mailserver operators do not demand that, but t-online does. > > An example for what they expect: > https://www.hetzner.com/legal/legal-notice > > More information about Impressum: > https://www.ionos.com/digitalguide/websites/digital-law/a-case-for-thinking-global-germanys-impressum-laws/ > > Best regards > Gerald >
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 02:08:57AM +, Henry R wrote: > But t-online.de keep blocking me. I have contacted them twice and got the > same answer: > >We only allow evidently commercial or similar operators to connect >to our mailservers. So, as a private user please use an SMTP relay >or e-mail gateway of your hoster or ISP, that you can use as part >of your contract with them. Their support will surely help you to >configure your system accordingly. > > That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send > messages to them. But there are many small companies/org who have > their own mailservers, which can't send messages to t-online directly. Most likely this is not their actual policy, but rather a way for some underpaid level-1 tech support staffer to close your issue. See https://postmaster.t-online.de/#t4 for what appear to be the actual requirements. They do appear to expect sending domains to have a website, public contact addresses, ... but a requirement to be a commercial operator isn't there, best I can tell. You could try to escalate after politely pointing to the above page and pointing out that it does not in fact prohibit suitably operated personal mail servers. -- Viktor.
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
post...@ptld.com skrev den 2022-11-30 04:07: My mailserver once had some issues on sending messages to different providers. We only allow evidently commercial or similar operators to connect to our mailservers. That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send messages to them. Did you host your mail server in a data center or at your residence? Mail coming from a residential internet connection may be seen as spam. if t-online can deliver emails to OP ip here, why should replys then be denied ? policy one way will always fails
Re: how to deal with t-online's blocking
My mailserver once had some issues on sending messages to different providers. We only allow evidently commercial or similar operators to connect to our mailservers. That's so strange policy to permit only commercial company to send messages to them. Did you host your mail server in a data center or at your residence? Mail coming from a residential internet connection may be seen as spam.
