[Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
For some reason I haven't received this message directly, so my reply is a little late. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/potlatch-dev/2014-February/002037.html Of course I welcome diversity, Richard, I have many personal reasons to welcome that, and I'm sure there are many people who are comfortable with Potlatch. However, I don't know any map maintainer (as I call someone who's watching changes and fixing errors as they are introduced by others) who shares that opinion about Potlatch. Of course, if all I wanted was to map without any regard for data integrity, I would simply not ask for this. And why I care about this: because the map was a huge mess in my area when I started mapping in OSM. Later I understood that over 50% of that mess was due to Potlatch-induced mistakes, and because there was nobody watching. Here's my opinion in further detail: http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=24381 Other knowledgeable and well-involved contributors in Brazil agree, as you see in my quotes at the bottom, and you can verify them at my original post, linked at the top, to be sure nothing was lost in translation. If there's no intention to deprecate Potlatch, then what was replied in this TRAC issue makes little sense: https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4902 Beginners are the main source of such mistakes, and I'm sure they deserve attention. It doesn't matter to me if they use Potlatch or iD (or Merkaator, or some other editor), as long as the program helps prevent data loss which is easy to code for (easy in comparison to porting iD to IE or writing a new editor from scratch). Most (if not all) advanced users end up using JOSM anyway and its plethora of visual styles, presets and extended tools. As a side note, one can easily highlight routes in JOSM by searching for type=route. It's also very easy to write a visual style that highlights them. But for data integrity, this is usually not necessary because JOSM warns the user when deleting members of relations. Even if the user doesn't see them, he/she will know they exist, and that's what leads to seeking more knowledge about them. AFAIK, bulk edits are easy to detect and are mostly done by advanced users who are likely to have come across these pieces of advice: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines Acting big and irresponsibly can be seen as vandalism, for which there is this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Detect_Vandalism So, Richard, not a personal attack, but these issues need attention. I'm sure OSM has already lost great contributors in Brazil that felt that it was too easy to have their work undone because of these little issues. -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
#4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members -+ Reporter: fernando.trebien@… | Owner: potlatch-dev@… Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: potlatch2 |Version: Resolution: | Keywords: -+ Comment (by bryce2@…): +1 on this. It's reasonable for all editors to warn on deleting a relation member, by default, no matter the editor level targeted. Even josm. Even P2. -- Ticket URL: https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4902#comment:2 OpenStreetMap http://www.openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
Hello everyone, I was wondering when is it that Potlatch will be considered officially deprecated. I know that the editor has its pros (Flash is sometimes faster than iD's JavaScript, and some users certainly prefer Potlatch's menu organization), and I definitely appreciate the role it has played in OSM previously, but some of its cons make map maintenance an unnecessary pain. My main issue is lack of proper support to relations (not displayed and handled improperly on basic operations, such as when merging and spliting way members). Six months ago when I first posted the problem below, I was seeing problematic changesets in my city every now and then, but now, as the Brazilian community has grown quite a lot, I'm hearing of similar problems popping up in many other cities. On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 3:31 AM, OpenStreetMap t...@noreply.openstreetmap.org wrote: #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members -+ Reporter: fernando.trebien@... | Owner: potlatch-dev@... Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: potlatch2 |Version: Resolution: | Keywords: -+ Comment (by Richard): Potlatch will not be the default editor for much longer (iD will be) so purely beginner-focused feature requests are largely out of scope now. -- Ticket URL: https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4902#comment:1 OpenStreetMap http://www.openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months. (Moore's law) The speed of software halves every 18 months. (Gates' law) ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
On 14/02/2014 17:44, Fernando Trebien wrote: Hello everyone, I was wondering when is it that Potlatch will be considered officially deprecated. There is no intention at all to deprecate P2. Since newbie users are best-served by iD, the best thing you, as an OSM contributor, can do to prevent mapping mistakes is to add Internet Explorer support to iD so that new users are always presented with that. And, of course, you're very welcome to submit patches to P2 to address any issues you perceive with it. Every editor has its pitfalls. iD has the unintentional selection of areas thing, JOSM has the too easy for people to make bulk edits thing, and so on. FWIW I noticed someone in #osm-gb earlier saying that they preferred P2 to other editors for route relations because it makes them more obvious, so your opinion is not necessarily universally shared. Diversity is good. Richard ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
On 14/02/2014 17:55, Fernando Trebien wrote: The used did know know he was destroying data because Potlatch neither displays turn restrictions It does, you know: http://imgur.com/j6A6clo nor issues a warning when merging ways referenced by relations It does, you know: http://imgur.com/sDqq1hf Richard ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
Re: [Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
#4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members -+ Reporter: fernando.trebien@… | Owner: potlatch-dev@… Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: potlatch2 |Version: Resolution: | Keywords: -+ Comment (by Richard): Potlatch will not be the default editor for much longer (iD will be) so purely beginner-focused feature requests are largely out of scope now. -- Ticket URL: https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4902#comment:1 OpenStreetMap http://www.openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
[Potlatch-dev] [OpenStreetMap] #4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members
#4902: Warnings for deleting/merging relation members + Reporter: fernando.trebien@… | Owner: potlatch-dev@… Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: potlatch2 |Version: Keywords: | + Hello, I know this can be considered a duplicate of tickets #3777 and #4879, but I'd like to elaborate on this issue. Despite members of relations now being rendered a little differently, I still see some novice users breaking relations from time to time without noticing it. They use Potlatch because it is easy and because they feel they can skip a lot of technical reading. The visual language is a very nice feature when understood but it is evidently not that obvious to some users. A visual clue may indicate that something is different but it does not indicate what the difference is. I suggest a warning that the user may disable through a check box (and re- enable in the Options dialog). The warning can briefly explain the possible consequences of operating on relation members and provide a link for further reading. An example dialog for deleting nodes or ways: If you delete this element, one or more relations may become broken. Relation membership can be managed in the Advanced tab. To learn more about relations, see: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation Proceed? [ ] Don't show this again [Yes] [No] And one for merging ways, shown only if necessary (not shown if all ways are already members of the same relations, except relations with type=restriction): If you merge these ways, one or more relations may become inconsistent. Relation membership can be managed in the Advanced tab. To learn more about relations, see: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation Proceed? [ ] Don't show this again [Yes] [No]|| -- Ticket URL: https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4902 OpenStreetMap http://www.openstreetmap.org/ OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world ___ Potlatch-dev mailing list Potlatch-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/potlatch-dev
