Re: [Jprogramming] NuVoc page for debug
Yes I suppose it should. More manageable. Be nice if the result could look more like first aid than a semester course. On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 at 22:33, chris burke wrote: > Shouldn't all debug pages go on or under the page > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Debug? For now this page is primarily for > the gui debugger, but should be expanded to include all the foreign debug > functions. Then NuVoc can point to this page. > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 11:03 AM Henry Rich wrote: > > > Right. The Foreigns page is just for reference. We still need a page > > devoted to Debug and how to use it. > > > > Henry rich > > > > On 4/5/2022 1:59 PM, Ian Clark wrote: > > > That's certainly the logical place for it, and it's the logical format > > for > > > the Foreigns page of NuVoc. > > > > > > A beginner might still need a bit more guidance however... > > > > > > I've written a stub page: > > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/Debug > > > which I invite someone else to finish who knows *debug* better than I > do. > > > > > > How about a simple worked example for how to debug an error in jconsole > > (or > > > jqt used in a jconsoling way)...? > > > How to do it with Run > Debug ⌘K is best described elsewhere, e.g. > under > > > [[Debug]]. > > > > > > Ian Clark > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 at 00:33, Henry Rich wrote: > > > > > >> I have copied most of the information from > > >> https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dx013.htm to > > >> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Vocabulary/Foreigns#m13 with very > > little > > >> added. > > >> > > >> Henry Rich > > >> > > >> On 4/3/2022 8:13 PM, Ian Clark wrote: > > >>> IMHO debugging in J is not the happy reassuring experience it could > be. > > >> Any > > >>> newbie who consults NuVoc looking for debug enlightenment is all set > to > > >>> spend a distressing two hours. > > >>> > > >>> Is that just my lack of familiarity with the geewhiz stuff that's > > there? > > >>> Because I only resort to (13!:) and the debugger When All Else Fails. > > >>> > > >>> Then I go straight to > > >> https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dx013.htm > > >>> which for me is the most helpful page in the whole of J Help. > > >>> > > >>> It's a tall order to improve on it. If NuVoc is going to get an > > ancillary > > >>> page on Debugging, it could do worse than link dx013 and leave it at > > >> that. > > >>> Actually I do have a small improvement on dx013 to offer. For my own > > use > > >>> I've replaced every 13!:* reference with the corresponding stdlib > cover > > >>> verb. I attach the resulting doctored webpage as a .webarchive, > hoping > > it > > >>> won't get stripped off. > > >>> > > >>> If it does, then PM me for a copy. > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 at 16:04, Raul Miller > > wrote: > > >>> > > I have ported debug_verbs.htm over as Debug/Verbs, and included it > in > > the debug navigator. > > > > Someone (probably me) should go in and "merge" the two tables of > > contents on the page. (In other words, add the __NOTOC__ keyword to > > disable the wiki generated table after replicating its functionality > > in the table with descriptive comments a short distance down on the > > page.) > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > Raul > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 10:54 AM chris burke > > >> wrote: > > >> I haven't found a replacement for > > > https://www.jsoftware.com/docs/help602/user/debug_verbs.htm yet. > > > > > > This should be a new child page of > > >> https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Debug > > . > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 12:00 AM Raul Miller > > > wrote: > > >> > > https://code.jsoftware.com/mediawiki/index.php/Guides/Covering_a_verb > > >> seems useful, but I haven't found a replacement for > > >> https://www.jsoftware.com/docs/help602/user/debug_verbs.htm yet. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Raul > > >> > > >> On Sat, Apr 2, 2022 at 11:55 PM Henry Rich > > wrote: > > >>> That's pretty good. It needs to be referred to from the NuVoc > > ancillary > > >>> pages. > > >>> > > >>> It seems to be about the graphical debugger. Some users, as I > > >>> understand, use debug commands from the keyboard. Some > > documentation > > >>> for them would be wolcome. > > >>> > > >>> Henry Rich > > >>> > > >>> On 4/2/2022 10:24 PM, Raul Miller wrote: > > What about https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Debug? > > > > Thanks, > > > > >>> -- > > >>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > >>> https://www.avg.com > > >>> > > >>> > > > -- > > >>> For information about J forums see > > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > >> > > -- > > >> For informat
[Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
Hi everyone, I made a cheatsheet for all J primitives about a year ago. I thought somebody might find it useful too. Here's the link: https://sergeyqz.github.io/jcheatsheet/. The main idea was to have a one-page plain HTML table of all primitives with short descriptions, synonyms (e.g. Member (In) has "contains, includes"), and argument types. It's far from perfect, I'm sure there are mistakes. For example, I didn't pay much attention to types yet, some descriptions are not clear enough, but I find it helpful as it is. I posted it on r/apljk last month and got thoughtful comments from u/moon-chilled. Maybe somebody here have more to say, I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks, Sergey -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
Your cheatsheet is very nice. However, in my browser I keep a tab with file:///Applications/j64-807/addons/docs/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm open always and at all times. And why it wins out over NuVoc etc is because it fits on the screen. I never have to scroll to find the relevant information. Years ago someone (I forget who) made a reference card for J6.02. I still have it on my desk (two pages, printed on a single piece of paper) for the same reason. Minimum amount of work to remind myself of the exact spelling of something I know is there. White space is mostly a waste on reference pages/cards. On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:37 AM 'Sergey S' via Programming < programm...@jsoftware.com> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I made a cheatsheet for all J primitives about a year ago. I thought > somebody might find it useful too. Here's the link: > https://sergeyqz.github.io/jcheatsheet/. > The main idea was to have a one-page plain HTML table of all primitives > with short descriptions, synonyms (e.g. Member (In) has "contains, > includes"), and argument types. It's far from perfect, I'm sure there are > mistakes. For example, I didn't pay much attention to types yet, some > descriptions are not clear enough, but I find it helpful as it is. > > I posted it on r/apljk last month and got thoughtful comments from > u/moon-chilled. Maybe somebody here have more to say, I'd appreciate any > feedback. > > Thanks, > Sergey > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] NuVoc page for debug
On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:20 AM Ian Clark wrote: > Be nice if the result could look more like first aid than a semester course. Something like this? http://www.andyheld.com/wfr_info.htm Or more like this? https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/toolboxes/documents/ranger/SAW_WFA%20Ref%20Cards.pdf Or more like this? https://tools.niehs.nih.gov/wetp/public/Course_download2.cfm?tranid=10038 Thanks, -- Raul -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:37 AM 'Sergey S' via Programming wrote: > I made a cheatsheet for all J primitives about a year ago. I thought somebody > might find it useful too. Here's the link: > https://sergeyqz.github.io/jcheatsheet/. That looks like it would be nice as a wiki page, with [[Category:Index]] and of course the appropriate wikilinks for each of the primitives. Thanks, -- Raul -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
[Jprogramming] Report of the J Wiki Group meeting of March 31st, 2022
Present: Art Anger, Jon Hough, Devon McCormick,Raul Miller, Bob Therriault 1) After some discussion it was decided that we would look at setting up the J playground as an independent project. It has accomplished much of what the J wiki requires with every indication that it will be able to do much more as its own project and part of that may be to find a better name as it is becoming much more than a place to play. Of course participation in the J wiki group would still be encouraged as there are strong ties between two projects. Kudos to Joe Bogner, Will Gajate and Jon Hough for the work that has contributed to the J Playgrounds successful development. https://jsoftware.github.io/j-playground/bin/html/emj.html#code='key%20sin(exp)%2Ccos(exp)'%20plot%20(%3B(sin%2C%3Acos)%40%3A%5E)%20-%3A%20%3E%3A%20i%3A3j100 2) A great deal of discussion on the help section being brought over from the jsoftware site and being set up with temporary reconnects to the index. This would allow the correct and current information be added gradually as it is reviewed. This is an ongoing challenge and Raul Miller has been working diligently to create a framework that will provide a good foundation for future development. https://code2.jsoftware.com/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page 3)This was followed by a discussion about the ways that we could build some projects that would encourage more involvement in the wiki. We will consider providing short tasks to clean up of imported pages as a way to encourage more participation by the community. If you would like to get involved in this project, email the general forum so that we can add you to meeting notification. Cheers, bob For access to previous meeting reports https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Wiki_Development -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] NuVoc page for debug
Ha-ha! (…and I thought J online help was bad!) What was I hoping for when I said "First Aid"? If I'd said "In Case Of Fire" you'd find equally hideous examples. I meant "First Aid for the J novice". I was hinting at something brief and helpful. But what's the briefest, most helpful thing one can say to the J novice, faced with a bug in their explicit verb? Something like this? How To Use Debug Don't. It doesn't matter. I've already answered Raul's question on a different thread. On reflection I'd go for something like this: https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Plot On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 at 17:52, Raul Miller wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:20 AM Ian Clark wrote: > > Be nice if the result could look more like first aid than a semester > course. > > Something like this? > > http://www.andyheld.com/wfr_info.htm > > Or more like this? > > > https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/toolboxes/documents/ranger/SAW_WFA%20Ref%20Cards.pdf > > Or more like this? > > https://tools.niehs.nih.gov/wetp/public/Course_download2.cfm?tranid=10038 > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] NuVoc page for debug
I think that's a little harsh on the debugger. For my first 20 years of programming I single-stepped through every program before trying anything bigger. That's an effective way to develop IMO. If you keep your eyes open you can find most of your errors. The J visual debugger has good support for this approach. When I started with J, the debugger couldn't be relied on, and I got into the habit of debugging by other means. I make my code work but I miss the intimacy of watching each line run. I think the debugger is robust enough now that I could single-step again. Maybe I'll try. I certainly wouldn't discourage a newcomer who wanted to do that. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 4:50 PM, Ian Clark wrote: Ha-ha! (…and I thought J online help was bad!) What was I hoping for when I said "First Aid"? If I'd said "In Case Of Fire" you'd find equally hideous examples. I meant "First Aid for the J novice". I was hinting at something brief and helpful. But what's the briefest, most helpful thing one can say to the J novice, faced with a bug in their explicit verb? Something like this? How To Use Debug Don't. It doesn't matter. I've already answered Raul's question on a different thread. On reflection I'd go for something like this: https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Plot On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 at 17:52, Raul Miller wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:20 AM Ian Clark wrote: Be nice if the result could look more like first aid than a semester course. Something like this? http://www.andyheld.com/wfr_info.htm Or more like this? https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/toolboxes/documents/ranger/SAW_WFA%20Ref%20Cards.pdf Or more like this? https://tools.niehs.nih.gov/wetp/public/Course_download2.cfm?tranid=10038 Thanks, -- Raul -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] NuVoc page for debug
On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 5:01 PM Henry Rich wrote: > I think the debugger is robust enough now that I could single-step > again. Maybe I'll try. I certainly wouldn't discourage a newcomer who > wanted to do that. In my experience, single stepping is fairly robust, with one exception (which might be fixed in the latest builds of the j engine -- returning from an explicit function into an "each" statement would drop into the next item in that "each" sequence and back into the start of the explicit function). However, in some cases, catching errors when they happen has popped up too far (into the load verb for the script when the error happened inside some other explicit verb). These are difficult to isolate. (And there may be other issues.) FYI, -- Raul -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
I too would like to see Sergey's cheatsheet on J Wiki. There's no rule that says NuVoc should only have one portal. Why does https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc take the form it does? Because it's the best cheat-sheet? No – that's never been established. If memory serves, it aimed to resemble Voc (see line 3 of the above link) in the built-in J online help: https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm because Voc was familiar, and NuVoc was being tentatively offered as an alternative. Voc did at least fit on one screen, more-or-less. Screens as they were 20 years ago. In this age of iPhones, the all-on-one-page cheat-sheet is a lost cause. But there may be no all-round best replacement. Rather: horses for courses. Might a newcomer prefer something like this? – 5!:5 <'dlb' }.~ (=&' ' (i.) 0:) xp 5!:5 <'dlb' }. Behead * Drop ~ Reflex * Passive / Evoke ( Left Parenthesis = Self-Classify * Equal & Bond / Compose ' ' Const or Pronoun/verb ( Left Parenthesis i. Integers * Index Of ) Right Parenthesis 0: Constant Function ) Right Parenthesis 5!:5 <'words' [: jpath '~proj/words/' , ijs xp 5!:5 <'words' [: Cap jpath Const or Pronoun/verb '~proj/words/' Const or Pronoun/verb , Ravel * Append ijs Const or Pronoun/verb Yes, xp exists, and I've used it for years. But I never got round to distributing it, not wanting to clutter stdlib with my numerous cerebral crutches – it's big enough. PM me for a copy. On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 at 19:55, Raul Miller wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:37 AM 'Sergey S' via Programming > wrote: > > I made a cheatsheet for all J primitives about a year ago. I thought > somebody might find it useful too. Here's the link: > https://sergeyqz.github.io/jcheatsheet/. > > That looks like it would be nice as a wiki page, with > [[Category:Index]] and of course the appropriate wikilinks for each of > the primitives. > > Thanks, > > -- > Raul > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] NuVoc page for debug
It surprises me that the results are unpredictable. The code seems clear: debug suspension happens after an error or before a stop, but always between sentences (except for stops on tacit verbs). If anyone finds anomalies let me know. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 5:06 PM, Raul Miller wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 5:01 PM Henry Rich wrote: I think the debugger is robust enough now that I could single-step again. Maybe I'll try. I certainly wouldn't discourage a newcomer who wanted to do that. In my experience, single stepping is fairly robust, with one exception (which might be fixed in the latest builds of the j engine -- returning from an explicit function into an "each" statement would drop into the next item in that "each" sequence and back into the start of the explicit function). However, in some cases, catching errors when they happen has popped up too far (into the load verb for the script when the error happened inside some other explicit verb). These are difficult to isolate. (And there may be other issues.) FYI, -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
The card that Ric Sherlock & I did, https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/File:J602_RefCard_color_letter_current.pdf, tries to get it all on 2 pages. We are working on a J9 version, as a very-low-priority task. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 5:38 PM, Ian Clark wrote: I too would like to see Sergey's cheatsheet on J Wiki. There's no rule that says NuVoc should only have one portal. Why does https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc take the form it does? Because it's the best cheat-sheet? No – that's never been established. If memory serves, it aimed to resemble Voc (see line 3 of the above link) in the built-in J online help: https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm because Voc was familiar, and NuVoc was being tentatively offered as an alternative. Voc did at least fit on one screen, more-or-less. Screens as they were 20 years ago. In this age of iPhones, the all-on-one-page cheat-sheet is a lost cause. But there may be no all-round best replacement. Rather: horses for courses. Might a newcomer prefer something like this? – 5!:5 <'dlb' }.~ (=&' ' (i.) 0:) xp 5!:5 <'dlb' }. Behead * Drop ~ Reflex * Passive / Evoke ( Left Parenthesis = Self-Classify * Equal & Bond / Compose ' ' Const or Pronoun/verb ( Left Parenthesis i. Integers * Index Of ) Right Parenthesis 0: Constant Function ) Right Parenthesis 5!:5 <'words' [: jpath '~proj/words/' , ijs xp 5!:5 <'words' [: Cap jpath Const or Pronoun/verb '~proj/words/' Const or Pronoun/verb , Ravel * Append ijs Const or Pronoun/verb Yes, xp exists, and I've used it for years. But I never got round to distributing it, not wanting to clutter stdlib with my numerous cerebral crutches – it's big enough. PM me for a copy. On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 at 19:55, Raul Miller wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:37 AM 'Sergey S' via Programming wrote: I made a cheatsheet for all J primitives about a year ago. I thought somebody might find it useful too. Here's the link: https://sergeyqz.github.io/jcheatsheet/. That looks like it would be nice as a wiki page, with [[Category:Index]] and of course the appropriate wikilinks for each of the primitives. Thanks, -- Raul -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
…now that's a card I did make use of! As it should be used: printed out 2-sided, laminated and propped-up beside the screen. On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 at 22:52, Henry Rich wrote: > The card that Ric Sherlock & I did, > https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/File:J602_RefCard_color_letter_current.pdf, > > tries to get it all on 2 pages. We are working on a J9 version, as a > very-low-priority task. > > Henry Rich > > On 4/6/2022 5:38 PM, Ian Clark wrote: > > I too would like to see Sergey's cheatsheet on J Wiki. > > There's no rule that says NuVoc should only have one portal. > > > > Why does https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/NuVoc take the form it does? > > Because it's the best cheat-sheet? No – that's never been established. > > If memory serves, it aimed to resemble Voc (see line 3 of the above > link) in > > the built-in J online help: > > https://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm > > because Voc was familiar, and NuVoc was being tentatively offered as an > > alternative. > > > > Voc did at least fit on one screen, more-or-less. Screens as they were 20 > > years ago. > > > > In this age of iPhones, the all-on-one-page cheat-sheet is a lost cause. > > But there may be no all-round best replacement. Rather: horses for > courses. > > > > Might a newcomer prefer something like this? – > > > > 5!:5 <'dlb' > > > > }.~ (=&' ' (i.) 0:) > > > > > > xp 5!:5 <'dlb' > > > > }. Behead * Drop > > > > ~ Reflex * Passive / Evoke > > > > ( Left Parenthesis > > > > = Self-Classify * Equal > > > > & Bond / Compose > > > > ' ' Const or Pronoun/verb > > > > ( Left Parenthesis > > > > i. Integers * Index Of > > > > ) Right Parenthesis > > > > 0: Constant Function > > > > ) Right Parenthesis > > > > 5!:5 <'words' > > > > [: jpath '~proj/words/' , ijs > > > > > > xp 5!:5 <'words' > > > > [: Cap > > > > jpath Const or Pronoun/verb > > > > '~proj/words/' Const or Pronoun/verb > > > > , Ravel * Append > > > > ijs Const or Pronoun/verb > > > > > > Yes, xp exists, and I've used it for years. But I never got round to > > distributing it, not wanting to clutter stdlib with my numerous cerebral > > crutches – it's big enough. PM me for a copy. > > > > On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 at 19:55, Raul Miller wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:37 AM 'Sergey S' via Programming > >> wrote: > >>> I made a cheatsheet for all J primitives about a year ago. I thought > >> somebody might find it useful too. Here's the link: > >> https://sergeyqz.github.io/jcheatsheet/. > >> > >> That looks like it would be nice as a wiki page, with > >> [[Category:Index]] and of course the appropriate wikilinks for each of > >> the primitives. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> -- > >> Raul > >> -- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
[Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute the line that failed. Huh? Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack back and remain in suspension? [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] Henry Rich -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
[Jprogramming] Characterizing a defective graph.
https://gist.githubusercontent.com/rdm/3ce3503ee63b51cd49c97ad185e1dd6f/raw/100e83ba7a87f10b844271180318c37fee1304dc/gph.txt The text at that gist represents a "defective graph" require'web/gethttp' text=: gethttp url 'A B C'=: |:640 #.inv<.0".text rplc LF,' ' part1=: A=/B part2=: B=/C To get an idea of the structure, try inspecting part1 and part2 in viewmat. part1 and part2 are almost the same, but not quite. In some cases, we have nodes which are reflexive (point to themselves) in the one, but not in the other. Also, some nodes point "outside" the graph. In part1 and part2, these connections are ignored, and that's fine for now. I am trying to figure out a good way of detecting nontrivial cycles (cycles which include at least two graph nodes) in either part 1, or part 2, or the combination of the two (part1 and part2 together represent connections involving these same nodes). Does anyone here have a good approach for that? Thanks, -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
It works for me therefore I'm not sure if I understood what you said. Can you give a simple example? On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 7:20 AM Henry Rich wrote: > dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute > the line that failed. Huh? > > Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail > again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. > > Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack > back and remain in suspension? > > [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] > > Henry Rich > > > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Raul provides this example: https://github.com/jsoftware/jsource/issues/131 Run example2 10 It fails (valence error in problem). Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. What does it look like when it works for you? Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:25 PM, bill lam wrote: It works for me therefore I'm not sure if I understood what you said. Can you give a simple example? On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 7:20 AM Henry Rich wrote: dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute the line that failed. Huh? Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack back and remain in suspension? [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] Henry Rich -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Haven't used the debugger extensively and haven't used dbcut. That said: 1. If you change some global state first, perhaps the code will start working 2. The dictionary says (emphasis mine): Cut back one stack level, _stopping_ at the line at the next stack level -E On Wed, 6 Apr 2022, Henry Rich wrote: dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute the line that failed. Huh? Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack back and remain in suspension? [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] Henry Rich -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Even with emphasis, I can't say I'm 100% sure what that sentence says. It means just what Roger chose it to mean, neither more nor less. I am looking for comments on whether the current behavior is desirable. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:33 PM, Elijah Stone wrote: Haven't used the debugger extensively and haven't used dbcut. That said: 1. If you change some global state first, perhaps the code will start working 2. The dictionary says (emphasis mine): Cut back one stack level, _stopping_ at the line at the next stack level -E On Wed, 6 Apr 2022, Henry Rich wrote: dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute the line that failed. Huh? Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack back and remain in suspension? [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] Henry Rich -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
I don't know. However why did the sentence 1 2+3 4 5 give domain error instead of length error? On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 7:29 AM Henry Rich wrote: > Raul provides this example: > > https://github.com/jsoftware/jsource/issues/131 > > Run > > example2 10 > > It fails (valence error in problem). Suppose you want to look around in > the caller's frame. You try 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, > calls problem again, and fails. > > What does it look like when it works for you? > > Henry Rich > > On 4/6/2022 7:25 PM, bill lam wrote: > > It works for me therefore I'm not sure if I understood what you said. Can > > you give a simple example? > > > > On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 7:20 AM Henry Rich wrote: > > > >> dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute > >> the line that failed. Huh? > >> > >> Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail > >> again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. > >> > >> Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack > >> back and remain in suspension? > >> > >> [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] > >> > >> Henry Rich > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > >> https://www.avg.com > >> > >> -- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. That seems like a valid use case. More generally, it seems like it would be useful to poke around in _any_ stack frame, without destroying the ones beneath (or on top of, depending on which way your stacks grow) it. But that leads to forking stacks and continuations. -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
That sentence never executed, because (problem) was executed dyadically and it has no dyadic definition. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:41 PM, bill lam wrote: I don't know. However why did the sentence 1 2+3 4 5 give domain error instead of length error? On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 7:29 AM Henry Rich wrote: Raul provides this example: https://github.com/jsoftware/jsource/issues/131 Run example2 10 It fails (valence error in problem). Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. What does it look like when it works for you? Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:25 PM, bill lam wrote: It works for me therefore I'm not sure if I understood what you said. Can you give a simple example? On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 7:20 AM Henry Rich wrote: dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute the line that failed. Huh? Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack back and remain in suspension? [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] Henry Rich -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Quite right, but I don't want to go there yet. I want to see if I'm misunderstanding 13!:19. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:41 PM, Elijah Stone wrote: Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. That seems like a valid use case. More generally, it seems like it would be useful to poke around in _any_ stack frame, without destroying the ones beneath (or on top of, depending on which way your stacks grow) it. But that leads to forking stacks and continuations. -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
I use 13!:19 often and have not seen the behavior you described. On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 7:33 PM Elijah Stone wrote: > Haven't used the debugger extensively and haven't used dbcut. That said: > > 1. If you change some global state first, perhaps the code will start > working > > 2. The dictionary says (emphasis mine): > > > Cut back one stack level, _stopping_ at the line at the next stack level > > -E > > On Wed, 6 Apr 2022, Henry Rich wrote: > > > dbcut (13!:19) seems to go up one stack level and immediately reexecute > > the line that failed. Huh? > > > > Unless you have a stop on that line, you will rerun it and it will fail > > again. If you do have a stop on the line, the reexecution is nugatory. > > > > Can anyone suggest a reason why 'cut back' should not just cut the stack > > back and remain in suspension? > > > > [It is possible that I have read the code wrong.] > > > > Henry Rich > > > > > > > > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > https://www.avg.com > > > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- Devon McCormick, CFA Quantitative Consultant -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 7:41 PM Elijah Stone wrote: > > Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try > > 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. > > That seems like a valid use case. More generally, it seems like it would > be useful to poke around in _any_ stack frame, without destroying the ones > beneath (or on top of, depending on which way your stacks grow) it. But > that leads to forking stacks and continuations. Yes. Still, ... destroying an inner stack frame to reach the next outer stack frame (which is what I believe 13!:19]1 is supposed to accomplish) seems like a reasonable compromise. Thanks, -- Raul -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Just did this: foo0=: 3 : 0 y=. >:y foo1 y ) foo1=: 3 : 0 y=. y,XX y=. y*10 ) 4!:55 <'XX' 1 foo0 10 |value error: XX | y=.y*10 |foo1[1] y NB. Currently undefined because XX is undefined 11 , XX 13!:19'' |stop: foo0 | foo1 y |foo0[1] y NB. Value at this level as expected 11 XX=: 99NB. Define variable to avoid value error 13!:4''NB. Resume execution in "foo0" 110 990 This works the same as I've seen it in the past. On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 7:44 PM Henry Rich wrote: > Quite right, but I don't want to go there yet. I want to see if I'm > misunderstanding 13!:19. > > Henry Rich > > On 4/6/2022 7:41 PM, Elijah Stone wrote: > >> Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try > >> 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. > > > > That seems like a valid use case. More generally, it seems like it > > would be useful to poke around in _any_ stack frame, without > > destroying the ones beneath (or on top of, depending on which way your > > stacks grow) it. But that leads to forking stacks and continuations. > > -- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > -- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- Devon McCormick, CFA Quantitative Consultant -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
(To be clear, I do not think continuations are a _bad_ idea; but they do represent a unique set of challenges complications, as demonstrated e.g. by dynamic-wind.) On Wed, 6 Apr 2022, Elijah Stone wrote: Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try > 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. That seems like a valid use case. More generally, it seems like it would be useful to poke around in _any_ stack frame, without destroying the ones beneath (or on top of, depending on which way your stacks grow) it. But that leads to forking stacks and continuations. -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] Users of 13!:19 (dbcut), please speak up
Thanks much. That makes sense. The key point is that it stopped in foo0 when you did the first 13!:19; in Raul's example it seemed to continue. The stop is sensible behavior; I will look into what happened in Raul's example. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:51 PM, Devon McCormick wrote: Just did this: foo0=: 3 : 0 y=. >:y foo1 y ) foo1=: 3 : 0 y=. y,XX y=. y*10 ) 4!:55 <'XX' 1 foo0 10 |value error: XX | y=.y*10 |foo1[1] y NB. Currently undefined because XX is undefined 11 , XX 13!:19'' |stop: foo0 | foo1 y |foo0[1] y NB. Value at this level as expected 11 XX=: 99NB. Define variable to avoid value error 13!:4''NB. Resume execution in "foo0" 110 990 This works the same as I've seen it in the past. On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 7:44 PM Henry Rich wrote: Quite right, but I don't want to go there yet. I want to see if I'm misunderstanding 13!:19. Henry Rich On 4/6/2022 7:41 PM, Elijah Stone wrote: Suppose you want to look around in the caller's frame. You try 13!:19'', but it restarts immediately, calls problem again, and fails. That seems like a valid use case. More generally, it seems like it would be useful to poke around in _any_ stack frame, without destroying the ones beneath (or on top of, depending on which way your stacks grow) it. But that leads to forking stacks and continuations. -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
Re: [Jprogramming] J cheat sheet (or an alternative view for the NuVoc table)
We are working on a J9 version GREAT! Sergey's sheet is nice and well designed. But IMO it is for a somewhat experienced J programmer, while the old J6.02 Reference Card had details and __examples__ useful to the newcomer e.g. Format. It is dense, can be printed and posted. Thanks to Henry (again!) and Ric. Newcomers and old-timers will appreciate an updated card with perhaps a third page allowing expansions and covering new stuff like Fold. ~ Gilles Le 2022-04-06 à 17:52, Henry Rich a écrit : The card that Ric Sherlock & I did, https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/File:J602_RefCard_color_letter_current.pdf, tries to get it all on 2 pages. We are working on a J9 version, as a very-low-priority task. Henry Rich ... -- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
