Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
Just to close the loop on this: Jonas, Pablo, Andrei, and I talked about all of these items yesterday for several hours. Our plan is to either post bugs or emails to the list by next Wednesday regarding everything that was discussed so that we can continue the discussions there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: We're meeting tomorrow (Wednesday) at 12:30 at room #4 on the third floor to continue IndexedDB discussions. The plan is to go grab lunch somewhere and then come back to room #4 and discuss stuff. The main topics will be error handling and arrays/compound-keys/etc. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Nikunj Mehta nik...@o-micron.com wrote: Propose: can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans? Nikunj On Nov 2, 2010, at 3:58 AM, Jeremy Orlow wrote: Great list! I propose we start with the various keys issues (I think we can make a lot of progress quickly and it's somewhat fresh on our minds), go to dynamic transactions (mainly are we going to support them), and then go from there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Pablo Castro pablo.cas...@microsoft.com wrote: To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Nikunj Mehta nik...@o-micron.com wrote: Propose: can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans? I can answer this for Firefox. We're tracking the spec fairly closely, though not all changes have yet landed but are stuck waiting for review from me. There are a fair number of bugs and edge cases where we're not following the spec, but for the most part, once all current patches have landed, our implementation works in most cases. Our current plan is to release our implementation in Firefox 4, but with a vendor prefix. / Jonas
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Nikunj Mehta nik...@o-micron.com wrote: Propose: can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans? I can answer this for Firefox. We're tracking the spec fairly closely, though not all changes have yet landed but are stuck waiting for review from me. There are a fair number of bugs and edge cases where we're not following the spec, but for the most part, once all current patches have landed, our implementation works in most cases. We're pretty much in the same boat. Our current plan is to release our implementation in Firefox 4, but with a vendor prefix. We're currently in the Chrome dev channel and Chromium tip of tree behind a vendor prefix. J
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
I had a major power outage on Nov 2 and could not join the meeting after the break between IndexedDB and File API. Also, I didn't really keep up with the discussions on DataCache API at TPAC. My apologies for that. Nikunj On Nov 4, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Jeremy Orlow wrote: Just to close the loop on this: Jonas, Pablo, Andrei, and I talked about all of these items yesterday for several hours. Our plan is to either post bugs or emails to the list by next Wednesday regarding everything that was discussed so that we can continue the discussions there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: We're meeting tomorrow (Wednesday) at 12:30 at room #4 on the third floor to continue IndexedDB discussions. The plan is to go grab lunch somewhere and then come back to room #4 and discuss stuff. The main topics will be error handling and arrays/compound-keys/etc. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Nikunj Mehta nik...@o-micron.com wrote: Propose: can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans? Nikunj On Nov 2, 2010, at 3:58 AM, Jeremy Orlow wrote: Great list! I propose we start with the various keys issues (I think we can make a lot of progress quickly and it's somewhat fresh on our minds), go to dynamic transactions (mainly are we going to support them), and then go from there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Pablo Castro pablo.cas...@microsoft.com wrote: To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist
RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed the difference anyway). The aborting behavior is necessary since the user could have planned to execute additional commands atomically in the handler. There is also the option to let the transaction finish. They should be short-lived so it shouldn't be too bad. I.e. keep the page alive for a bit longer in the background or something that blocks page unload? Is there precedent for this elsewhere? This sounds pretty complicated to get right both in terms of implementation and speccing. Let's chat about it though. * Error handling What do you mean by this? How to handle exceptions in various places. Where (error) events propagate. How does it relate to window.onerror. What happens if you do/don't call preventDefault on the error event? Sounds good.
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
Great list! I propose we start with the various keys issues (I think we can make a lot of progress quickly and it's somewhat fresh on our minds), go to dynamic transactions (mainly are we going to support them), and then go from there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Pablo Castro pablo.cas...@microsoft.comwrote: To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed the difference anyway). The aborting behavior is necessary since the user could have planned to execute additional commands atomically in the handler. There is also the option to let the transaction finish. They should be short-lived so it shouldn't be too bad. I.e. keep the page alive for a bit longer in the background or something that blocks page unload? Is there precedent for this elsewhere? This sounds pretty complicated to get right both in terms of implementation and speccing. Let's chat about it though. * Error handling What
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
Not sure if this is covered by index keys, but you may consider adding: - Full-text indexing To the agenda. N On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: I suspect internationalization is another thing where we can quickly make progress so lets try to get to that one too. / Jonas On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: Great list! I propose we start with the various keys issues (I think we can make a lot of progress quickly and it's somewhat fresh on our minds), go to dynamic transactions (mainly are we going to support them), and then go from there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Pablo Castro pablo.cas...@microsoft.com wrote: To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
Propose: can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans? Nikunj On Nov 2, 2010, at 3:58 AM, Jeremy Orlow wrote: Great list! I propose we start with the various keys issues (I think we can make a lot of progress quickly and it's somewhat fresh on our minds), go to dynamic transactions (mainly are we going to support them), and then go from there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Pablo Castro pablo.cas...@microsoft.com wrote: To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed the difference anyway). The aborting behavior is necessary since the user could have planned to execute additional commands atomically in the handler. There is also the option to let the transaction finish. They should be short-lived so it shouldn't be too bad. I.e. keep the page alive for a bit longer in the background or something that blocks page unload? Is there precedent
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
We're meeting tomorrow (Wednesday) at 12:30 at room #4 on the third floor to continue IndexedDB discussions. The plan is to go grab lunch somewhere and then come back to room #4 and discuss stuff. The main topics will be error handling and arrays/compound-keys/etc. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Nikunj Mehta nik...@o-micron.com wrote: Propose: can implementors provide an update on their implementation status/plans? Nikunj On Nov 2, 2010, at 3:58 AM, Jeremy Orlow wrote: Great list! I propose we start with the various keys issues (I think we can make a lot of progress quickly and it's somewhat fresh on our minds), go to dynamic transactions (mainly are we going to support them), and then go from there. J On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Pablo Castro pablo.cas...@microsoft.comwrote: To hit the ground running on this, here is a consolidated list of issues coming both from the thread below and various pending bugs/discussions we've had. I picked an arbitrary order and grouping, feel free to tweak in any way. - keys (arrays as keys, compound keys, general keypath restrictions) - index keys (arrays as keys, empty values, general keypath restrictions) - internationalization (collation specification, collation algorithm) - quotas (how do apps request more storage, is there a temp/permanent distinction?) - error handling (propagation, relationship to window.error, db scoped event handlers, errors vs return empty values) - blobs (be explicit about behavior of blobs in indexeddb objects) - transactions error modes (abort-on-unwind in error conditions; what happens when user leaves the page with pending transactions?) - transactions isolation/concurrent aspects - transactions scopes (dynamic support) - synchronous api Thanks -pablo -Original Message- From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Pablo Castro Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:39 PM To: Jeremy Orlow; Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed the difference anyway). The aborting behavior is necessary
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) * Error handling I'm sure I'll think of more. We'll probably have more items to cover than we can actually get done, so let's plan on tackling the items that are more up in the air and/or require more discussion/debate first. We can then use the mailing list for whatever we don't get to. Agreed. / Jonas
Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed the difference anyway). The aborting behavior is necessary since the user could have planned to execute additional commands atomically in the handler. There is also the option to let the transaction finish. They should be short-lived so it shouldn't be too bad. * Error handling What do you mean by this? How to handle exceptions in various places. Where (error) events propagate. How does it relate to window.onerror. What happens if you do/don't call preventDefault on the error event? / Jonas
RE: IndexedDB TPAC agenda
A few other items to add to the list to discuss tomorrow: - Blobs support: have we discussed explicitly how things work when an object has a blob (file, array, etc.) as one of its properties? - Close on collation and international support - How do applications request that they need more storage? And related to this, at some point we discussed temporary vs permanent stores. Close on the whole story of how space is managed. - Database-wide exception handlers Looking forward to the discussion tomorrow. -pablo From: public-webapps-requ...@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-requ...@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Orlow Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:34 PM To: Jonas Sicking Cc: public-webapps@w3.org Subject: Re: IndexedDB TPAC agenda On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:13 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:40 AM, Jeremy Orlow jor...@chromium.org wrote: What items should we try to cover during the f2f? On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: P.S. I'm happy to discuss all of this f2f tomorrow rather than over email now. Speaking of which, would be great to have an agenda. Some of the bigger items are: * Dynamic transactions * Arrays-as-keys * Arrays and indexes (what to do if the keyPath for an index evaluates to an array) * Synchronous API * Compound keys. * What should be allowed in a keyPath. Aren't compound keys same as arrays-as-keys? Sorry, I meant to say compound indexes. We've talked about using indexes in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include indexes. I assumed you meant the latter? I'm lost as to what you're saying here. Could you elaborate? Are you saying index when you mean array anywhere? oops. Yes, I meant to say: We've talked about using arrays in many different ways--including compound indexes and allowing keys to include arrays. I assumed you meant the latter? * What should happen if an index's keyPath points to a property which doesn't exist or which isn't a valid key-value? (same general topic as arrays and indexes above) We've talked about this several times. It'd be great to settle on something once and for all. Agreed. * What happens if the user leaves a page in the middle of a transaction? (this might be nice to tackle since there'll be lots of relevant people in the room) I'm pretty sure this is simple: if there's an onsuccess/onerror handler that has not yet fired (or we're in the middle of firing), then you abort the transaction. If not, the behavior is undefined (because there's no way the app could have observed the difference anyway). The aborting behavior is necessary since the user could have planned to execute additional commands atomically in the handler. There is also the option to let the transaction finish. They should be short-lived so it shouldn't be too bad. I.e. keep the page alive for a bit longer in the background or something that blocks page unload? Is there precedent for this elsewhere? This sounds pretty complicated to get right both in terms of implementation and speccing. Let's chat about it though. * Error handling What do you mean by this? How to handle exceptions in various places. Where (error) events propagate. How does it relate to window.onerror. What happens if you do/don't call preventDefault on the error event? Sounds good.
