Re: Pyramid application templates
Hey Mike, I agree with you that having questions would be nice. And for people not liking the questions, maybe we could have them answered automatically by passing options such as --with-sqla --with-zodb --with-mako --with-urldispatch, ... Just an idea. We could also have just a bare bone Pyramid app with no template engine an no sqla/zodb. Such a setup could be for a webservice app that only returns JSON data, no HTML. 2010/11/10 Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com: I think we need to think strategically about Pyramid's application templates. There are already eight of them, with overlapping functionality and inconsistent names. There will probably be more templates coming, both bundled with Pyramid and separate. ChrisM has said he doesn't like conditional templates (i.e., templates with questions), but they've worked well in Pylons and they would allow a streamlining of the current and future templates. The current application templates are: * pyramid_starter: BFG style (traversal, imperative) * pyramid_starter_zcml: BFG style (traversal, ZCML) * pyramid_zodb: BFG style (traversal, ZCML, ZODB) * pyramid_alchemy: BFG style (traversal, SQLAlchemy, ? configuration style) * pyramid_routesalchemy: primitive Pylons style (URL dispatch + SQLAlchemy only) * pylons_minimal: Pylons View handler style minimal (with Mako?) * pylons_basic: full Pylons View handler style with Mako, no db * pylons_sqla: full Pylons view handler style with Mako, with SQLAlchemy I'd like to see one template equivalent to the Pylons 1 template, with questions for SQLAlchemy and the template engine. The templates are pretty straightforward even with the conditionals. Looking forward, we'll also need questions for auth and ZODB. (Yes, some apps may want both SQLAlchemy and ZODB.) The pylons_minimal template is rarely, if ever, used in Pylons 1. Do we need it? pyramid_routesalchemy can maybe go away because it will just confuse people. Or can it be renamed to something minimal or combined with pylons_minimal? The pylons_ names are a legacy from Pylons 2. Would it be OK to rename these pyramid_ and rename the current pyramid_ ones to something else? BFG beginners are generally more advanced than Pylons beginners, right? Then it would be easier for them to choose the right application template no matter what it's called. Either that or we could name them all pyramid_, or name the BFG ones pyramid_traversal_. I think we need to avoid pylons (without suffix) as a template name, both because we're identifiying it with Pylons 1, and because there'd be an entry point conflict if both Pyramid and Pylons are installed. (Who knows which one you'd get?) So this all gets into, what do you call the super Pylons template with questions? pyramid would be a nice name. Then delete pylons_basic and pylons_sqla because it would supercede them, and pylons_minimal because who needs it, and pyramid_routesalchemy for the same reason. Then the other pyramid_ ones can stay as they are or be renamed pyramid_traversal_. (The latter would group them together so that people can remember, If I want a BFG or TurboGears style app, use pyramid_traversal_.) -- Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en. -- Alex | twitter.com/alexconrad -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Alexandre Conrad alexandre.con...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mike, I agree with you that having questions would be nice. And for people not liking the questions, maybe we could have them answered automatically by passing options such as --with-sqla --with-zodb --with-mako --with-urldispatch, ... Just an idea. The question prompts are provided by paster create. Supposedly you can pass variables at the end of the command line to pre-answer them but it hasn't worked for me. How do conditionals hinder application maintenance? Or should we just say that since it hasn't been a problem for Pylons maintainers, that level of complexity is OK. But if it gets much more complex it could be too much. E.g., ZODB should only need a couple of if's, but auth could require several if's and be too complex for the same template. BTW, how would you make a template that handles both SQLAlchemy and ZODB? Pylons puts the model definitions and init_model() in '.__init__', and the Session and Base in 'meta' so they can be imported into everything without circular imports. but where would ZODB go? Or does it not really need a model but just a short initialization function? We could also have just a bare bone Pyramid app with no template engine an no sqla/zodb. Such a setup could be for a webservice app that only returns JSON data, no HTML. That sounds like a job for pylons_minimal. You'd still have the distinction of URL dispatch vs traversal. This seems to be the most fundamental choice people make when they choose an application style. (Well, that and ZCML.) -- Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On 11/11/10 05:05 , Mike Orr wrote: I'd like to see one template equivalent to the Pylons 1 template, with questions for SQLAlchemy and the template engine. The templates are pretty straightforward even with the conditionals. Looking forward, we'll also need questions for auth and ZODB. (Yes, some apps may want both SQLAlchemy and ZODB.) A while ago I made some alternative templates for BFG in a branch: http://svn.repoze.org/repoze.bfg/branches/wichert-re-paster/ . The most important changes there are a refactoring of application setup: they add websetup.py and expose that via a paster setup-app command and move creation if initial data to there. That very similar to what Pylons 1 does, and removes the (imho bad) behaviour of trying to create initial data on every application startup. Perhaps that is something to consider as well? Wichert. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On Nov 11, 9:46 am, Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Alexandre Conrad We could also have just a bare bone Pyramid app with no template engine an no sqla/zodb. Such a setup could be for a webservice app that only returns JSON data, no HTML. That sounds like a job for pylons_minimal. You'd still have the distinction of URL dispatch vs traversal. This seems to be the most fundamental choice people make when they choose an application style. (Well, that and ZCML.) I thought that would take no extra base configuration. You could even use URL dispatch and traversal together as described in http://docs.pylonshq.com/pyramid/dev/narr/hybrid.html. -- Michael -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On Nov 11, 8:11 am, Alexandre Conrad alexandre.con...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mike, I agree with you that having questions would be nice. And for people not liking the questions, maybe we could have them answered automatically by passing options such as --with-sqla --with-zodb --with-mako --with-urldispatch, ... Just an idea. We could also have just a bare bone Pyramid app with no template engine an no sqla/zodb. Such a setup could be for a webservice app that only returns JSON data, no HTML. +1 (for exact the usecase) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 2:29 AM, Michael Haubenwallner michael.haubenwall...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 11, 8:11 am, Alexandre Conrad alexandre.con...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Mike, I agree with you that having questions would be nice. And for people not liking the questions, maybe we could have them answered automatically by passing options such as --with-sqla --with-zodb --with-mako --with-urldispatch, ... Just an idea. We could also have just a bare bone Pyramid app with no template engine an no sqla/zodb. Such a setup could be for a webservice app that only returns JSON data, no HTML. +1 (for exact the usecase) 'pyramid_webservice'? Or rename 'pylons_minimal' to 'pyramid_minimal'? (There is also a 'pyramid_starter' for traversal style.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en. -- Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On 11/11/10 8:41 AM, Mike Orr sluggos...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 2:29 AM, Michael Haubenwallner michael.haubenwall...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 11, 8:11 am, Alexandre Conrad alexandre.con...@gmail.com wrote: We could also have just a bare bone Pyramid app with no template engine an no sqla/zodb. Such a setup could be for a webservice app that only returns JSON data, no HTML. +1 (for exact the usecase) 'pyramid_webservice'? Or rename 'pylons_minimal' to 'pyramid_minimal'? (There is also a 'pyramid_starter' for traversal style.) I think _webservice -- explicit is better IMNSHO. Andrew -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
On Wed, 2010-11-10 at 20:05 -0800, Mike Orr wrote: I think we need to think strategically about Pyramid's application templates. Agreed. There are already eight of them, with overlapping functionality and inconsistent names. There will probably be more templates coming, both bundled with Pyramid and separate. ChrisM has said he doesn't like conditional templates (i.e., templates with questions), but they've worked well in Pylons and they would allow a streamlining of the current and future templates. I'm not a fan of them from a testing and code-maintenance perspective, although I do see their utility for users (it's easier to make choices interrogatively than to make them a-priori), and I suspect that some collapsing of them would make changing them easier. While we don't have automated tests for any of the paster templates now, we should. I'd like to make sure we can automate tests for whatever we come up with. The current application templates are: * pyramid_starter: BFG style (traversal, imperative) * pyramid_starter_zcml: BFG style (traversal, ZCML) * pyramid_zodb: BFG style (traversal, ZCML, ZODB) * pyramid_alchemy: BFG style (traversal, SQLAlchemy, ? configuration style) * pyramid_routesalchemy: primitive Pylons style (URL dispatch + SQLAlchemy only) * pylons_minimal: Pylons View handler style minimal (with Mako?) * pylons_basic: full Pylons View handler style with Mako, no db * pylons_sqla: full Pylons view handler style with Mako, with SQLAlchemy I'd like to see one template equivalent to the Pylons 1 template, with questions for SQLAlchemy and the template engine. The templates are pretty straightforward even with the conditionals. Makes sense to me. Looking forward, we'll also need questions for auth and ZODB. (Yes, some apps may want both SQLAlchemy and ZODB.) The pylons_minimal template is rarely, if ever, used in Pylons 1. Do we need it? Probably not. pyramid_routesalchemy can maybe go away because it will just confuse people. Or can it be renamed to something minimal or combined with pylons_minimal? The pylons_ names are a legacy from Pylons 2. Would it be OK to rename these pyramid_ and rename the current pyramid_ ones to something else? BFG beginners are generally more advanced than Pylons beginners, right? Then it would be easier for them to choose the right application template no matter what it's called. Either that or we could name them all pyramid_, or name the BFG ones pyramid_traversal_. I think we need to avoid pylons (without suffix) as a template name, both because we're identifiying it with Pylons 1, and because there'd be an entry point conflict if both Pyramid and Pylons are installed. (Who knows which one you'd get?) I'm ok with any renamings as long as the tutorials and the project chapter in the docs are updated to deal with them. So this all gets into, what do you call the super Pylons template with questions? pyramid would be a nice name. Then delete pylons_basic and pylons_sqla because it would supercede them, and pylons_minimal because who needs it, and pyramid_routesalchemy for the same reason. Then the other pyramid_ ones can stay as they are or be renamed pyramid_traversal_. (The latter would group them together so that people can remember, If I want a BFG or TurboGears style app, use pyramid_traversal_.) pyramid would be fine by me. Do you think you could help make that template? - C -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
Re: Pyramid application templates
Am 11.11.2010 05:05 schrieb Mike Orr: I think we need to think strategically about Pyramid's application templates. There are already eight of them, with overlapping functionality and inconsistent names. There will probably be more templates coming, both bundled with Pyramid and separate. ChrisM has said he doesn't like conditional templates (i.e., templates with questions), but they've worked well in Pylons and they would allow a streamlining of the current and future templates. That's also what I was thinking when I tried out Pyramid. Having a template for every combination of options is really not maintainable and extendable. But in paster templates you can use a small templating language, so conditional templates are easy to implement: http://pythonpaste.org/tempita/modules/tempita.html. TurboGears has used this, too, in order to add options such as authorization or switch SQLobject against SQLAlchemy or Genshi against Malo. (For historical reasons TG used Cheetah here, but nowadays Tempita is a better choice because it's already included in Paste.) -- Christoph -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups pylons-devel group. To post to this group, send email to pylons-de...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to pylons-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-devel?hl=en.
