Re: [pypy-dev] Possible sprint in Genova before/after Europython
In a message of Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:20:26 +0200, Antonio Cuni writes: Also, would you prefer to do it before or after europython? I am coming, and both times are fine for me. I am going to be spending the week after Europython in Italy somewhere anyway, prior to going kayaking in Sicily. Laura (who is speaking for Jacob here too) ciao, Anto ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] This in from Jesse Noller
--- Forwarded Message Return-Path: jnol...@gmail.com Delivery-Date: Wed Apr 13 18:54:12 2011 Subject: Re: Mentor for Py3 benchmarking To: the-fellowship-of-the-packag...@googlegroups.com, Maciej Fijalkowski fij...@gmail.com, Laura Creighton l...@openend.se Cc: Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Also, reach out to the PyPy team. They know more about speed.pypy.org than anyone else, and would be best suited to mentor. Python-Dev and PyPy-Dev are going to be the best avenues. On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com wrote: We have a number of students who proposed to port PyPy's benchmarking sui= te to Python3 to run on speed.python.org, we don't have a mentor for these a= t the moment. Would anyone here (pref previous GSoC mentor/student) like to take one of these on? We have until Monday (4/18) to evaluate students, get patches/blogs/etc taken care of, and all mentors assigned. If there are people here who want to mentor talk to either Tarek (for packaging) or Martin v. Löwis (for python-core).If you're an existing python-dev contributor we could especially use your help. - --- End of Forwarded Message ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] thinking about the EuroPython sprint
2 days after the conference is not a lot of time. Do we want to rent some space to have a longer sprint? Or is it too late, people will already have booked their plane tickets, or ... Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] thinking about the EuroPython sprint
In a message of Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:46:25 +0200, Armin Rigo writes: Hi Laura, On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Laura Creighton l...@openend.se wrote: 2 days after the conference is not a lot of time. =A0Do we want to rent s= ome space to have a longer sprint? =A0Or is it too late, people will alread y have booked their plane tickets, or ... As far as I'm concerned, I think a sprint should be a bit longer to be useful. Wasn't there also talk about having the sprint (or *a* sprint) done before the conference? yes, I was hoping to catch Alex Gaynor for that, as he is attending EuroDjango earlier the same month. My point is that we need to decide what we are doing very, very soon. else everybody will have their plane tickets already, since we will have to announce what we are doing differently. Laura Armin ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Gothenburg sprint and sprint fund
What did you find? Because both of the Gothenburg airports claim to have no connections to Ireland whatsoever. Laura, who would be very pleasantly surprised if this is wrong. ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Gothenburg sprint and sprint fund
In a message of Sat, 09 Apr 2011 13:52:13 +0200, Laura Creighton writes: re: This is with a stop in London Stansted. However now I found a direct connection from Dublin to Stockholm Skavsta for something my mailer didn't like-- laura by RyanAir. It's really cheap. And I am getting a price of 39,99 Euros out (on the 23rd) and 9,98 if you leave on the 3rd. 59,99 if you leave on the 2nd. So yes, much cheaper. Thank you. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Gothenburg sprint and sprint fund
In a message of Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:27:49 +0200, Bartosz SKOWRON writes: On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Laura Creighton l...@openend.se wrote: And I am getting a price of 39,99 Euros out (on the 23rd) and 9,98 if you leave on the 3rd. =C2=A059,99 if you leave on the 2nd. So yes, much cheaper. =C2=A0Thank you. :) I'm glad I could help. Wish to come to the sprint either but can't make it for this date :( That's really too bad. Are you going to Europython? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Europython reservations
Jacob and I just arranged to be staying at Residence Michelangiolo June 19-26 . see: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g187895-d581477-Reviews-Residence_Michelangiolo-Florence_Tuscany.html among others for review. At 980 Euros for the whole time, it seems to be substantially cheaper that the conference hotel, and not that far a walk. Other differences -- no included breakfast, but pantry -- refrigerator, counter, and clean up space -- in your room. For people who wanted to make their own breakfast anyway, this is a win. There may be a cook space too. There is internet by wire in each room but no wifi. On the 5th, we should be on a ferry to get us to kayaking vacation in Corsica. see: http://ucpa.se/Aktivitetsprogram-havskajaksafari-Korsika (in Swedish, but maybe it will help you to find the same program from ucpa described in whatever language you prefer.) This leaves the 26-5th to figure out. Vacation in Tuscany is one idea. Or to extend the sprint because 2 days is not enough is another. If so, maybe we could hold it at this place? Seems spacious enough. I thought it would be fun to fill Residence Michelangiolo with friends, at least for the 19-26 so posted this here. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy custom interpreter JIT question
In a message of Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:33:40 +0200, Antonio Cuni writes: On 31/03/11 14:28, Andrew Brown wrote: In any case, I'm satisfied with the speed. It's still beaten by a BF to C translator combined with gcc -O2 though, that'd be a tough case to beat . =) what happens if you combine the BF to C with gcc -O0 or -O1? Anyway, I think that if you feel like writing a post explaining your experience with using pypy and its jit for writing an interpreter, we cou ld publish it on our blog. I suppose it would be useful/interesting for oth er people as well. What do the others think? I'd look forward to reading it. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] status of the graphviz server on codespeak?
getting-started-dev says: Download and install `Dot Graphviz`_ (optional if you have an internet connection: the flowgraph viewer then connects to codespeak.net and lets it convert the flowgraph by a graphviz server). What's going to happen to that when codespeak goes away? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] European sprints?
In a message of Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:08:07 +0100, Laura Creighton writes: In a message of Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:01:38 +0100, Bea During writes: Here is a suggestion of places and dates based on Lauras, Carl Friedrich and Antos input: - Gothenburg sprint: 25th of April to 1st of May - Europython sprint/Florence: 25th of June to 26th of June (EP2011 official sprint dates) - Düsseldorf sprint: 22nd of August to 28th of August (fits the plan of the funded PyJIT project which ends end August) What do you think about these dates - would they work? Cheers Bea There is now a reason to like the week before Florence EuroPython June 20-26 -- so June 12 - 20 or so -- EuroDjangoCon is June 6-10 in Amsterdam http://djangocon.eu/ So people fron out of Europe could plan a Python summer, if they were coming to EuroDjangocon anyway. Also, I have just got mail from the original author of this thread. He'd like to book tickets to come to Göteborg and sprint with us. Can we confirm the dates? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Thinking about the GIL
In a message of Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:18:07 +1100, William ML Leslie writes: Where did you want this discussion to go, Laura? It looks like you wanted to talk about the specific problems that need to be dealt with while removing the GIL, but it seems to have disintegrated into the same concurrency model X is better than concurrency model Y free for all that regularly seems to happen on this list. Regardless of the API that runtimes written with the translation toolkit may provide, getting rid of the GIL is a precursor to the implementations of most of these models. -- William Leslie I'm at a Sprint at PyCON, as are many of the people I think would be best at answering these specific questions. So it is not surprising that they are not answering them now. I, myself, am personally interested in finding out how languages I have never looked at do these things, because I expect it to influence how one gets rid of the GIL. I was hoping to have an insight as to how one could avoid going the route of reimplementing fine grained locks everywhere, pervasively, all through the codebase. But all I am seeing now is more evidence that this is impossible. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] ideas for Google Summer of code
In a message of Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:09:19 +0100, Antonio Cuni writes: Hi all, the deadlines for GSoc are approaching, and at some point we should proba bly make a blog post about that. But first, we need to 1) collect ideas for possible tasks and 2) find potential mentors. Two ideas that just came to my mind: - general work on speed.pypy.org (we need to define better what we want , of course) - improving the jitviewer, maybe integrating it with the profiler (when w e'll have one :-)) - insert-your-idea-here :-) ciao, Anto 3.x conversions -- a) write an interpreter b) do the fiddly bits needed to integrate the new interpreter with our codebase c) get the 3.whatever tests to pass I think this is too much work for one SoC student, but maybe not if it was set up as 2 projects, one of which stared after the other did. I am not sure how SoC is being handles for people who live in the Southern hemisphere and who go to classes in June, July, etc. ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] phb impression from speed.pypy.org
Smaller is better when you are dieting. Or when you are racing. Given that there is talk that we will measure memory size as well, and turn into performance.pypy.org then I think that the 'smaller is better' idea will be well understood. As a practical matter, making 'faster' be 'bigger' doesn't make sense in terms of benchmarks, in which you want to be the first to finish. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] ideas for Google Summer of code
I'd like speed.python.org to become performance.python.org so we can measure memoryt consumption too. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] *Rant* No Reply-To?
In a message of Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:53:44 EST, Timothy Baldridge writes: Why is there no Reply-To in the headers on this list? Whenever, in gmail, I hit reply it automatically sets the to address to the from field in the mailing list e-mail. So I end up e-mailing the person directly instead of the list. This is highly frustrating. Timothy http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Any Multithreading Primitives?
In a message of Tue, 15 Mar 2011 10:04:04 EST, Timothy Baldridge writes: Does PyPy have any sort of multithreading primitives that are available in rpython programs? I'm specifically looking for CAS. I can probably simulate a mutex with CAS. Or do I have to drop down to some sort of assembly generation to atomically update a object reference? Thanks, Timothy Will anything written here: http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/stackless.html be of any use to you? Note, this documentation isquite old and needs attention, and right now the stackless transform does not work with the JIT. changing things so that it would work doesn't seem to be that much work, though, we just haven't gotten around to it. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Thinking about the GIL
Robert Hancock hosted a bof at pycon about concurrency and multiprocessing. I went there looking to find out how other people were doing things, especially looking for information about how other languages handled things. It would be nice to kill the GIL, if only we knew of a brilliant way to do this. Unfortunately, I was one year to late for this discussion. This is what Robert Hancock David Beazley, Peter Portante and others discussed at Pycon _last year_. So I asked Robert Hancock for the notes he took then. (I continue after this forwarded message) --- Forwarded Message Return-Path: hancock.rob...@gmail.com Delivery-Date: Mon Mar 14 17:09:51 2011 Return-Path: hancock.rob...@gmail.com Subject: Re: please send me the notes you took last year To: Laura Creighton l...@openend.se These are the books that I mentioned: Machine Learning: An Algorithmic Perspective http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1420067184 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1420067184 I found this more approachable than the Bishop and a number of examples are in Python. Introduction to Data Mining http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321321367 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321321367 I've only started this, but it is nice with David Mease's Google Tech Talk series. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRsMEl6PHhM 1. Make all IO non-blocking and mediate the processes like greenlets. This does not allow you take advantage of the OS level thread scheduler which is far more sophisticated than greenlets. See the Linux kernel specifications for the details of the multi-level feedback queue. 2. Construct a multi-level feedback queue within Python. This is extraordinarily complicated and complex to implement. Why duplicate what already exists? 3. Do we need to maintain compatibility with being able to call out to C functions? The primary complaint about the GIL is that it does not efficiently handle CPU bound processes and multi-cores. Running sequential processes in threads on multi-cores can actually slow down the processes. 4. Who has already solved this problem as part of the language? - Erlang (No one knew the nitty gritty details.) - Go - based on Tony Hoare's CSP and the work done on Plan 9 at Bell Labs. Uses the system scheduler and creates its own mini-threads (4k). Need to investiagate the source code on line. Goroutines do not have OS thread affinity; they can multiplex over multiple threads. - Java - Early on Java used several versions of Greenlets, but now uses system threads. The JVM punts to the OS. Conclusions -- 1. Do not reinvent the wheel! Many people have worked decades on this problem. Leverage thier expertise. 2. Coroutines are frequently better than threads, but do scale and each coroutine must me restarted in the thread where it was spawned. See greenlet.c. Greenlets are also chained and have mutual dependencies. The order of execution is arbitrary with not method for priorities. 3. Investigate if there is an alternative to the current method of calling external C objects. 4. Dave did a POC on priorities: http://dabeaz.blogspot.com/2010/02/revisiting-thread-priorities-and-new.html 5. Everyone agreed that some type of priority mechanism is a good idea, but wanted to see what Unladen Swallow does. (As of March 2011 Google is no longer actively developing this project.) References - --- Dave Beazley - GIL Wars Dave Beazley - Yieldable Threads http://www.dabeaz.com/blog.html Linux Kernel http://goo.gl/RkxVs Erlang Go - golang.org CSP - Tony Hoare http://www.usingcsp.com/cspbook.pdf I spoke with Peter Portante yesterday, and he would be very interested in participating even though he has very little free time. Peter works at HP and worked on their OS threading model. Also, see his Pycon 2010 talk on non-blocking IO and the 2011 talk on co-routines. Let me know if you have any questions. Bob Hancock Blog - www.bobhancock.org Twitter - bob_hancock and nycgtug --- End of Forwarded Message And, indeed, Peter Portante is very interested in thinking about doing without the GIL. He's already sent me this: Date:Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:42:00 -0400 To: Laura Creighton l...@openend.se From:Peter Portante peter.a.porta...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [pypy-dev] possibly of use for our documentation Return-Path: peter.a.porta...@gmail.com Delivery-Date: Sun Mar 13 21:42:21 2011 Return-Path: peter.a.porta...@gmail.com Hi Laura, Just left pycon and heard about talks of pypy removing the gil. I work on tru64 unix's thread library for 8 years. If there is any thing I can do to help with this effort, please let me know. Thanks, -peter - Note: I have never promised anybody anything. This was a 'please educate me appeal'. But Bob Hancock is coming back this afternoon to talk with us. Anybody got any questions they want to make sure I ask him? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net
Re: [pypy-dev] wrong precedence of __radd__ vs list __iadd__
Note: I told python-dev about this behaviour http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2011-March/109130.html thinking to get a 'NotPortableWarning'. Now python-dev is hot for making this a bug in Cpython as well. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] possibly of use for our documentation
I went and saw the pybookbuilder project's poster. https://launchpad.net/pybookbuilder This is Jeff Elkner and his extremely smart high school students. They have a neat plugin for doing Latex inside sphinx, and to combine it with ReST to make, well, books of documentation. I don't want to lose this idea. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
In a message of Wed, 09 Mar 2011 09:26:29 +0100, Miquel Torres writes: I see. There is an easy solution for that, at least for the moment: enabling zooming. I just did that, and you can now use zooming in a timeline plot to select a narrower yaxis range or just view a particular area in detail. A single click resets the zoom level. If that is not enough, we can discuss a better solution when you have mor e time. This is terrific. Thank you very much. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
Thank you very, very much. I am sorry if I was short with you last night, I was very tired. This is great. I am fine with saying that the geometric mean is X times faster. I'd like to come up with a good way to say that we are faster on real programs, not just contrived examples, but this will take work and thought. Maybe some of the people who are on this list but not at pycon can come up with something. Thank you very much. I'm very happy now. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
In a message of Tue, 08 Mar 2011 09:10:32 +0100, Miquel Torres writes: Hi, I finished the changes to the speed.pypy.org home page last night, but alas!, I didn't have time to deploy. I will do it later today and will then ping you back. The extra info provided is really nice as an overview, you will see ;-) Ah good. Thank you very much. We spent yesterday afternoon with the Mozilla engineers, and I got to talk to the person who maintains the benchmarks for tracemonkey. He had timelines very much like ours. There is one feature he has that I would like to have. Take a look atthe timeline for spectral.norm. There are two spikes there. Mozilla has lines like that too, though mostly it is because their jit decides that the whole benchmark is bogus and optimises out all the code. So it takes 0 time. oops. At any rate, aside from knowing that something went horribly wrong with that rev, you don't really need to know how wrong. And by making the graph display up to that point means that the dots where things really do matter get crammed closer together than would otherwise be the case. So he had a mode where things wehre displayed with an arbitrary value at the bottom (in our coase it would be the top) which he could specify. Then the graph would be replotted, with the outliers off the graph, but making it easier to read the dots for the more normal cases. Any chance we could do that too? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
In a message of Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:17:17 +0100, Miquel Torres writes: you mean this timeline, right?: http://speed.pypy.org/timeline/?ben=3Dspectral-norm Because the December 22 result is so high, the yaxis maximum goes up to 2.5, thus having less space for the more interesting 1 range, right? yes Regarding mozilla, do you mean this site?: http://arewefastyet.com/ I can see their timelines have some holes, probably failed runs... I was seeing something else, and I don't have a url. I think that what I was seeing is what they use to make the arewefastyet.com site. I see a problem with the approach you suggest. Entering an arbitrary maximum yaxis number is not a good thing. I think the onus is there on the benchmark infrastructure to not send results that aren't statistically significant. See Javastats (http://www.elis.ugent.be/en/JavaStats), or ReBench (https://github.com/smarr/ReBench). I don't think you understand what I want. Sorry if I was unclear. I am fine with the way that the benchmarks are displayed right now, but I want a way to dynamically do there and say, I want to throw away all data that is higher than a certain figure, or lower than a certain one, because right now I am onoy interested in results in a certain range. I'm not looking to change what the benchmark says for everybody who looks at it, or change how it is presented in general. I just want a way to zoom in and only see results in the range that interests me. You and anybody else might have a different range that interests you, and you should be free to get this as well. Something that can be done on the Codespeed side is to treat differently points that have a too high stddev. In the aforementioned spectral-norm timeline, the stddev floor is around 0.0050, while the spike has a 0.30 stddev, much higher. A strict mode could be implemented that invalidates or hides statistically unsound data. The problem is that I want to throw away arbitrary amounts of data regardless of whether they are statistically significant or not, on the basis of I know what I want to see, and this other stuff is getting in the way or being distractingÃ. Btw., I had written to the arewefastyet guys about the possibility of configuring a Codespeed instance for them. We may yet see collaboration there ;-) Miquel Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
In a message of Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:34:15 +0100, Miquel Torres writes: Hi, just a quick note to Laura and the rest to let you know that I am working on the issues you raised, and expect to have everything nailed down this weekend, just in time for PyCon. Miquel Thank you very much. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] we need to fix the links on our blog posts.
http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2008/06/hi-all-some-news-from-jit-front.html the link to the pyrolog paper is broken. This works today, but needs to have its mimetype set http://codespeak.net/svn/user/cfbolz/jitpl/paper/iclp08/jit_iclp08.pdf But I don't know where Carl Friedrich's svn dir is migrating to from codespeak, so this isn't a permanent fix. This paper really should be in our papers, in extradoc, no? I cannot find it there. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] we need to fix the links on our blog posts.
Do we need dcolish's bouncer to work for what used to be people's svn directories on codespeak? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
Resend. I seem to have typed python-...@codespeak.net last time. sorry Miguel. I'd like to change what is displayed on the speed.python.org frontpage. Right now, as I look at http://speed.pypy.org/ I see, under a section called 'latest results' a list of all the recent times when we became slower. It's thus a 'recent problems' page -- we have actually improved in recent times in many areas, and nowhere is that shown. As we go off to PyCON, which is March 9-17, I intend to mention how great PyPy is, and that you can see it for yourself at speed.pypy.org. Thus, without lying, I would like it if the first impression of PyPy's speed that people got when looking at the site was 'we're getting faster'. Do you think you could change the front page so that what was displayed was more balanced with respect to good news and bad news? I realise that there is nothing you can do if we make a recent build that slows everything down, but for instance in build 42312:392b (Feb 26) we have improvments which are not shown on the main page. I actually think that the _trend_ is a more useful thing to display on the front page, though that might be because it is so green right now. :-) The other thing I want is for the graphs you get, for instance with http://speed.pypy.org/changes/?rev=42312:392bbf936179exe=%203env=tannit to have, in addition to the selection button beside: 'result for revision' an actual label that says 'build 42312:392b' or something that you can select with your mouse and use to paste into things like this mail article. It would also be useful to label the run with something more meaningful than 'tannit' for outsiders -- 64 bit ubuntu linux for instance. Thanks very much, Laura Creighton ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
In a message of Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:57:33 +0200, Maciej Fijalkowski writes: Hey. Just my 5 cents. It would be cool if default view has a down-scaled version of comparison against CPython. I can look anywhere for recent changes. Also the recent changes as they're now are not very informative and I don't use them at all. They stick around, so I don't know if they're new or old. I'm also as interested in good as in bad changes. Simply this: http://speed.pypy.org/changes/ is way more informative. Can we either just remove the red recent changes for now or simply put a vs cpython, scaled down graph there? At least for pycon this seems like a better way to go. Cheers, fijal PS. Miquel, don't get me wrong, I think you're doing an awesome job, the speed website itself was a huge step forward for us. This sounds good to me as well, and I too don't want Miquel to think that I am ungrateful for all his hard work. The site is really good for us, and thank you. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Change to the frontpage of speed.pypy.org
Also, can you change every usage of the word 'less' on the axis of the graphs to 'smaller'. As far as I can tell, every time it is an incorrect and ungramatically usage of English. Sometimes the legend is 'seconds - less is better'. But seconds are inherantly countable, so it is incorrect English to say 'there are less seconds' -- rather that there are *fewer* seconds. Or you could change that legend to read 'time in seconds' -- because time is considered uncountable, so you have more or less time, not more or fewer time. Smaller would also work here. Ratios, however, such as on http://speed.pypy.org/comparison/ cannot be 'more or less' or 'more or fewer'. They have to be greater (or larger) or smaller. Thus we need 'smaller' here. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] implementing the additional repo migrations
In a message of Sat, 26 Feb 2011 09:09:50 +0100, holger krekel writes: Hi Laura, Why should we ever care about space? Small repositories are faster to clone and work with. I am fine to copy everything related to extradoc, though. I thought we had unlimited repos in bitbucket. If so, then this is an argument for putting the extra documentation in a different repo than the pypy one, not for getting rid of things in extradoc. I don't think that much (or maybe any) reconstruction is necessary. The things in extradoc really are the tex files, pdfs and what-have-you that you would expect from their filename extensions. The problem is that codespeak improperly serves them up as binary files. So no reconstruction needed. Just serve them properly. this has nothing to do with codespeak but which svn:mime-type files have in the svn repository. If you find a file in the repo that should have a certain mime-type you can e. g. svn ps svn:mime-type application/pdf path/to/file.pdf it. I am actually not sure how mercurial or bitbucket handles serving such fi les. Sorry, I knew that, I didn't mean to imply that it was some flaw in codespeak. Though it is very far from clear to me how svn got in the business of giving our files mimetypes, which I think happened secretly, under-the-hood. I don't think any of us explicitly went around typing svn commands to set a mime-type of binary to those files, it just happened silently. And, for me, at any rate, svn was an unexpected culprit -- by this I mean that when I went investigating the problem of 'why is this talk being served up as a binary file' svn was not one of the places I thought to look. The mercurial authors (like me) don't like the concept of binrary files, see http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BinaryFiles , so I guess all we need to find out is does bitbucket itself make assumptions. I wouldn't think so, but then I thought that about svn as well. But I think we should anyway go for serving talks via http://pypy.org/tal ks/ just through apache and avoid giving out links to version control repositories. We might eventually migrate away from bitbucket and we would then again have the problem of stale links. I'm not fond of a solution which leaves the extradoc files in two versions, the one in the repo and the one on http://pypy.org/talks , and where you have to keep remembering to change the pypy.org one because you have made a change to the one in the repo. cheers, holger I think we may have a more general problem, in that the flexibility of pypy should lead to massive experimentation, not only by ourselves but by third parties. What then should we do with the experiments? I'd like to find a way to keep the interesting ones around without making branching horribly slow. I thought that having many separate repositories would go a long way to getting this, was this also a mistaken assumption? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] implementing the additional repo migrations
In a message of Sat, 26 Feb 2011 10:25:45 +0100, Jacob Hallén writes: snip While I am fine with dropping older revisions of just about everything in extradoc, I wonder if it wouldn't be better better for the future to keep this repository in svn format. That way you will only get one copy of everything when cloning the repository. Jacob I'm not fine with the dropping of older revisions. One of the chief benefits for me of moving to a version control system was that I could feel comfortable ruthlessly condensing my writing, knowing that if I ever wanted this stuff later -- say to use in a different document, I could always go back and get the old revision that contained the wonderful words or diagrams I now propose to cut. And this has happened in the past, where early versions of things I wrote ended up raised out of the grave of the repository to live on as part of completely different documents. I'm not going to be comfortable deleting stuff this if I think that the grim reaper is out there, just waiting to purge all my earlier attempts once some document is deemed to be 'final'. So I either won't delete stuff, or I will go back to my old practice of having dozens of versions around 'just in case'. I'm fine with continuing to have the extradoc managed by svn, though I really want a script that runs nightly looking for things in extradoc that have a mimetype of binary and complains about this. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] implementing the additional repo migrations
In a message of Fri, 25 Feb 2011 22:36:16 +0100, Ronny Pfannschmidt writes: hi, this night i started taking a look at the extra repos that need to be migrated. many of them contain reconstructible, but large pdf files, that i'd like to kill off for saving space. Why should we ever care about space? this shouldn't be a problem as long as the svn that many people link to stays available read-only, but it would need a bit of a plan if that goes as well. im currently investigating what parts of extradoc are reconstructible I don't think that much (or maybe any) reconstruction is necessary. The things in extradoc really are the tex files, pdfs and what-have-you that you would expect from their filename extensions. The problem is that codespeak improperly serves them up as binary files. So no reconstruction needed. Just serve them properly. Laura snip regards Ronny ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] further pypy repo migrations
Holger Krekel is the person to talk with. But he hasn't been around for a few days. I think he is on vacation. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] further pypy repo migrations
In a message of Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:23:06 +0100, holger krekel writes: Any more pypy related repositories that need migration or any notes/comments? best holger I just found a surprising number (at least it surprised me) of references in my own stuff to /svn/user/arigo/hack/somethings Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] European sprints?
In a message of Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:01:38 +0100, Bea During writes: Here is a suggestion of places and dates based on Lauras, Carl Friedrich and Antos input: - Gothenburg sprint: 25th of April to 1st of May - Europython sprint/Florence: 25th of June to 26th of June (EP2011 official sprint dates) - Düsseldorf sprint: 22nd of August to 28th of August (fits the plan of the funded PyJIT project which ends end August) What do you think about these dates - would they work? Cheers Bea For me: The Göteborg dates work. The Florence dates also work, but we might want to consider staying around longer, because 2 days of sprint is awfully short. And I have no way to know if any dates in July or August will work until the members of Näset's Paddlarklub decide which weeks will be spend on sea kayaking tours. I don't know when that will be decided -- maybe Jacob does -- but not in the next week at any rate. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] European sprints?
In a message of Tue, 15 Feb 2011 02:57:21 CST, Stephen Simmons writes: Hi... I have just started following the PyPy mailing list and am interested in getting involved in some small way. Are there any European sprints planned in the coming few months? Thanks Stephen I want to have one in Göteborg some time after PyCON. That's about as far as this discussion has got so far. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Fwd: [codespeak-ann] termination of codespeak.net services end FEB 2011
We can move things to Open End if people are interested. But there is a lot to be said for moving to a place where the whole hosting matter is somebody else's problem. Right now we seem awfully dependent on home-grown tools. Are there any that people cannot live without? Note: I am playing with Sphinx and liking it. It takes ReST as input. Georg Brandl is about to come out with a release that lets readers post notes on documentation pages, which I think would be a very neat feature to have. So'd I'd sort of like to be able to run sphinx wherever we go, and, at some point convert all of our documentation to use sphinx. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] testing floating point
running the test suite of this package might be useful. Laura --- Forwarded Message Return-Path: python-announce-list-bounces+lac=openend...@python.org Delivery-Date: Wed Feb 2 00:29:19 2011 Return-Path: python-announce-list-bounces+lac=openend...@python.org Received: from mail.python.org (mail.python.org [82.94.164.166]) by theraft.openend.se (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id p11NTCgZ009584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for l...@openend.se; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 00:29:14 +0100 Received: from albatross.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1089FEE9C0 for l...@openend.se; Wed, 2 Feb 2011 00:29:12 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=python.org; s=200901; t=1296602952; bh=SjeURYFJ0JANVg28+rd+7SNHYu2uW4+khr521TTR24c=; h=MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Reply-To:List-Id: List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Sender; b=u3Vd1rser4Yn6sV8mw8GsXc9yRHbfI8ct22qpxaml8r0lxcbKfbHnjjLVdST1kZY3 0MKS5mryz3ElA42r6P3S60hM+tWW0uz4xFk2AVUCrIeWt3+tpHWgYx3oXKHdTtdKRN ZgYWWK3rX3RoCiBOhAKDddtq25GWXs4jg2p75OVc= X-Original-To: python-announce-l...@python.org Delivered-To: python-announce-l...@mail.python.org Received: from albatross.python.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C0CEE9B8 for python-announce-l...@python.org; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 23:11:46 +0100 (CET) X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'bug': 0.02; 'subject:ANN': 0.02; 'subject:Python': 0.05; '2.x': 0.05; 'implements': 0.05; 'library': 0.06; '3.x': 0.07; 'derivatives': 0.07; 'tracker': 0.07; 'url:googlecode': 0.07; 'python': 0.08; 'url:pypi': 0.08; 'arithmetic': 0.09; 'url:code': 0.15; '0.17': 0.16; 'codebase,': 0.16; 'subject:0.17': 0.16; 'url:changes': 0.16; 'url:issues': 0.16; 'url:svn': 0.16; 'url:trunk': 0.16; 'downloaded': 0.17; 'url:doc': 0.19; '2.4': 0.23; 'version': 0.24; 'url:group': 0.25; 'function': 0.27; 'functions.': 0.28; 'project': 0.29; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.29; 'url:)': 0.29; 'thanks': 0.30; 'dropped': 0.30; 'standalone': 0.30; 'all,': 0.30; 'contributed': 0.31; 'requires': 0.33; 'version.': 0.34; 'url:google': 0.34; '2.5': 0.36; 'mathematical': 0.36; 'to:addr:python-announce-list': 0.36; 'used': 0.36; 'set': 0.37; 'list:': 0.37; 'works': 0.38; 'received:209.85': 0.38; 'received:google.com': 0.38; 'zero': 0.38; 'url:org': 0.38; 'subject:: ': 0.39; 'url:python': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.40; 'comments': 0.40; 'url:p': 0.60; 'to:2**2': 0.64; 'url:0': 0.64; 'details,': 0.65; 'website:': 0.71; 'to:no real name:2**2': 0.75; 'url:17': 0.76; 'news': 0.78; 'fredrik': 0.91 Received: from localhost (HELO mail.python.org) (127.0.0.1) by albatross.python.org with SMTP; 01 Feb 2011 23:11:46 +0100 Received: from mail-qw0-f46.google.com (mail-qw0-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.python.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS for python-announce-l...@python.org; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 23:11:45 +0100 (CET) Received: by qwa26 with SMTP id 26so7212791qwa.19 for python-announce-l...@python.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:11:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=6yZ49a5xiXwaVsySNvnihUrvwjNRAycqDeQTj98mFN4=; b=TFkhQdC5AeC7EecRVy8bO+ZVjyDOniTJB9u5S4BVnuXSAIAa8U58xnIPqCNAEojT5M 2bA2NizGpC/zHNyQLa/yu92nhY85wb2Wv5FW72QkL9kklUpzkYFZp4/vi4nidCwFoA2R 7qa0fa3fksMnYLpIyfOE5Vv0NeyWrZKmxt/Jc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=qdEow0h50/OGUU89qp7muEE5FACELAhcuIpeNUeeV8srLOc4roz/kZHOS7NooIktaG 8lMo4dIEgm6aPAqeAxssYBAiQ5YDk/k0YxSsZovPJFV1incJEWpc9HIuuS9922zQUHeW J9J1GUwfUr/2QjPYed8ZCEQJkzSyAaSvGNFpI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.236.134 with SMTP id kk6mr7177714qcb.93.1296598304793; Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.245.209 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Feb 2011 14:11:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 23:11:44 +0100 Message-ID: AANLkTinnjWyQ3U0MYMRn7+dmRVtwUAmpPrZZiz7QDt_=@mail.gmail.com Subject: ANN: mpmath 0.17 (Python 3 support and more) From: Fredrik Johansson fredrik.johans...@gmail.com To: mpm...@googlegroups.com, sy...@googlegroups.com, sage-de...@googlegroups.com, python-announce-l...@python.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 00:22:14 +0100 X-BeenThere:
Re: [pypy-dev] Continuations and sandboxing
When I was last in the USA, I met Alessandro Warth, who now works for the Viewpoints Research Institute and whose Phd thesis which you can get on this page: http://www.tinlizzie.org/~awarth/ is about experiments in computer languages to do the sorts of things that you are interested in. He had a neat implementation of something he called 'worlds' to show off, and gave a talk about it. It's chapter 4 of his thesis. It was neat, but I got the distinct impression that the price he was paying for having unlimited cheap undo was that it was going to be quite difficult when users in different worlds, all of whom 'sprouted' from a common, but very distant ancestor and who didn't sprout from each other wanted to share information. Many other people in the room had pressing needs for such things now, and some of them were interested in PyPy. They concluded that what they would really like is a programming language which multiple heaps -- in the sense of chunks of memory that you get when you malloc -- guaranteed to be separate from each other. I couldn't tell them how hard this would be to implement in PyPy. Aside from needing to write a custom garbage collector, what else would be needed? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] funding/popularity?
In a message of Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:24:28 +0100, Miquel Torres writes: Btw., instead of continuing here polluting the pypy-dev mailing list, we can move to http://groups.google.com/group/codespeed if needed. I'd rather it stayed here, myself. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Idea for speed.pypy.org
re: keeping the 'why we are slower/what we could do to fix it' info up to date -- one possibility is to make a 'why we were/what we are for release 1.4.' Then every time you make a major release, you update those fields as needed. And if major changes happen between 'what was in the last major release' vs 'what's on trunk now' you can even make a note of it -- 'fixed in rev whatever it was, when we merged in whoever it was' brank, see blog post over here'. And if you forget, well, you will catch it when the next major release comes out. Just an idea. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Conference in Japan
--- Forwarded Message From: andreas.schrei...@dlr.de To: python-announce-l...@python.org Subject: [ANN] Call for Papers: Workshop Python for High Performance and Scientific Computing Thread-Topic: [ANN] Call for Papers: Workshop Python for High Performance and Scientific Computing Thread-Index: AcuIOaLheS34scrKT/anKkKcPOGEAA== Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:32:23 + Message-ID: 64886abf09b1924997d70320e02f7ddb03f...@dlrexmbx01.intra.dlr.de Workshop Python for High Performance and Scientific Computing June 1-3, 2011, Tsukuba, Japan part of The International Conference on Computational Science (ICCS 2011) http://www.dlr.de/sc/iccs2011 === Call for Papers === Introduction - Python is an accepted high-level programming language with a growing community in academia and industry. Beside its original use as a scripting language for web applications, today Python is a general-purpose language adopted by many scientific applications like CFD, bio molecular simulation, AI, scientific visualization etc. More and more industrial domains are turning towards it as well, such as robotics, semiconductor manufacturing, automotive solutions, telecommunication, computer graphics, and games. In all fields, the use of Python for scientific, high performance parallel, and distributed computing, as well as general scripted automation is increasing. Moreover, Python is well-suited for education in scientific computing. The workshop aims at bringing together researchers and practitioners from industry and academia using Python for all aspects of high performance and scientific computing. The goal is to present Python-based scientific applications and libraries, to discuss general topics regarding the use of Python (such as language design and performance issues), and to share experience using Python in scientific computing education. Topics - -- * Python-based scientific applications and libraries * High performance computing * Parallel Python-based programming languages * Scientific visualization * Scientific computing education * Python performance and language issues * Problem solving environments with Python * Performance analysis tools for Python application Papers/Submission - - We invite you to submit a paper of up to 10 pages formatted according to the rules of Procedia Computer Science (http://www.elsevier.com/locate/inca/719435) via the ICCS 2011 conference submission system (http://www.iccs-meeting.org/iccs2011/papers/upload.php) selecting our workshop Python for High Performance and Scientific Computing in the drop-down menu. Important Dates - --- Full paper submission:January 10, 2011 Notification of acceptance: February 20, 2011 Camera-ready papers: March 7, 2011 Program Committee - - * Achim Basermann, German Aerospace Center, Germany * David Beazley, Dabeaz, LLC, USA * William E. Hart, Sandia National Laboratories, USA * Konrad Hinsen, Centre de Biophysique Moléculaire, CNRS Orléans, France * Andreas Klöckner, New York University, USA * Maurice Ling, Singapore Polytechnic, Singapore * Stuart Mitchell, The University of Auckland, New Zealand * Mike Müller, Python Academy, Germany * Travis Oliphant, Enthought, Inc., USA * Fernando Pérez, University of California, Berkeley, USA * Massimo Di Pierro, DePaul University, USA * Marc Poinot, ONERA, France * William Scullin, Argonne National Laboratory, USA * Gaël Varoquaux, INRIA, France Workshop Organizers - --- * Chair: Andreas Schreiber, German Aerospace Center (DLR), Germany E-Mail: iccs2...@dlr.de * Co-Chair: Guy K. Kloss, Auckland University of Technology, New Zealand - -- Andreas Schreiber Head Distributed Systems and Component Software DLR (German Aerospace Center), Simulation and Software Technology Linder Hoehe, 51147 Cologne, Germany Tel: +49 (0)2203/601-2485 http://www.dlr.de/sc Fax: +49 (0)2203/601-12485 MSN: mailto:andreas.schrei...@dlr.de Mobile: +49 (0)173 5231013 ICQ# 324185855 DLR on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DLR_de - -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations/ --- End of Forwarded Message ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Leysin Winter Sprint: 23-30th January 2010
In a message of Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:19:18 +0100, Armin Rigo writes: Hi all, Given the number of absent people announced already, I start to wonder if it makes sense to have a sprint at these dates at all. Indeed, from the list of core people, namely Maciek, Carl Friedrich, Antonio, Samuele and myself, we have two no, two yes, and one don't know. The two yes are from Samuele and myself, which is particularly pointless given that we are together in Goteborg already. The two no are from Maciek and Carl Friedrich. What do you think? Moving the sprint to some unspecified later date would seem to be the best plan at the moment. Note that I will myself stay in Switzerland until mid-February in any case. A bientot, Armin. Can we still get a release made before PyCON? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Improving the pypy website (and benchmarks)
In a message of Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:22:35 +0200, Miquel Torres writes: We should definitely have a chat meeting, with those interested in an e nd user's web page. Time? Miquel I am interested and I am pretty flexible about time, though _not this week, please_ (new product release, unrelated to PyPy on Thursday). Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Improving the pypy website (and benchmarks)
In a message of Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:23:16 +0200, Laura Creighton writes: In a message of Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:22:35 +0200, Miquel Torres writes: We should definitely have a chat meeting, with those interested in an e nd user's web page. Time? Miquel I am interested and I am pretty flexible about time, though _not this week, please_ (new product release, unrelated to PyPy on Thursday). Laura Well, if tomorrow is what people want, I can sort of be there at 9.30 tomorrow. Bea cannot, she is teaching in Stockholm at the time. And I expect to be way distracted by other things tomorrow. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] has anybody submitted an abstract to PyCON USA?
Time is running out Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Jesse Noller tried to invite us to something and was rudely rejected...
In a message of Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:41:57 BST, Michael Foord writes: --001485e36bef6120af0472bfd3cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Most mailing lists I'm on these days ban posts from non-members, otherwis e they get overwhelmed with spam unfortunately. :-( Michael python.org mailing lists are pretty good at catching the spam before they show up on your lists which is why I can let most of the lists I run just let email from non-members get moderated in or out. Maybe that software that python.org is running needs to be packaged up to make it easier for other mailman lists to install and use it? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Benjamin's flight from Amsterdam to Minneapolis has been
delayed by one day. KLM is putting him up someplace. So says his mother in email to me. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Europython slides
In a message of Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:07:13 +0200, Carl Friedrich Bolz writes: Hi all, just wanted to remind that we are asked to submit the Europython slides in advance, I think the date was March 22nd (?). Unfortunately I am quite ill, so won't be able to help much with this (I need to get better to actually make it to the conference at all). Cheers, Carl Friedrich 1. Get Better. 2. You meant July, I think. :) 3. Really Get Better. 4, We'd like the slides as soon as we can get them ... Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] From europython
--- Forwarded Message Return-Path: europython-contact-bounces+lac=openend...@python.org Delivery-Date: Fri Jun 12 01:57:27 2009 From: John Pinner funth...@gmail.com To: Graham Manwell jgmanw...@googlemail.com Cc: europython-ta...@python.org, europython-cont...@python.org Subject: Re: [europython-contact] EuroPython2009 Volunteering Hello Graham, 2009/6/12 Graham Manwell jgmanw...@googlemail.com: Hi John, Sorry not to do this via the wiki - can't seem to get that to work from home at the moment. Strange. Â I'm at EuroPython09 from 27/06/09 and am happy to try to chair any sessions or tutorials you might have free slots for - my field is compilers so if I chaired stuff in that area at least I'd.have some chance of asking intelligent questions - although PyPy makes my brain hurt. Â Also happy to offer any help with bag stuffing, registration and so on. Â Let me know what you need. Thanks, that's great. Best wishes, John - -- Cheers, Graham J. Graham Manwell Lecturer in Computer Science, University of the West of Scotland. t: 0141 848 3545/0141 632 2928 e: jgmanw...@gmail.com/manw-...@uws.ac.uk --- End of Forwarded Message I wonder if 'making my brain hurt' is to be considered positive in this context? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] news flash -- Europython to have a Python VM Panel talk
Who wants to be on it? This question is not limited to PyPyers -- I suspect that Frank Wierzbicki would like to be on this. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] speaking at Europython
John would like a Bio from Carl Friedrich, and Armin, and a better Bio from Samuele. Pictures for the website, too. 'you've been herded' :) Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] PyPy Sprint
Can people edit http://wiki.europython.eu/Sprints or make something on codespeak and then link to it there. Not enough people are signed up for sprinting, and John wonders if it is worth it to rent the rooms -- he is considering cancelling. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] How hard would it be to generate PyPy for the Dalvik Virtual Machine?
This showed up on another list I read. --- Forwarded Message From: Roland Orre roland.o...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:05:15 +0200 To: c...@ffii.org Subject: Re: [Cafe] android g1 X-BeenThere: c...@ffii.org I also have a Google G1 now with a developers account. It is cool to have a telephone which I can ssh from and where I can set up an ftp server. I intended to start porting some applications like some HP calculator (I have HP42S and HP48GX), and probably openssl, openssh and a vpn client. One tricky aspect with the Android system is that it has it's own noncompatible VM which is the Dalvik virtual machine, which shold be more memory efficient than the standard JVM. This JVM is written by Dan Bornstein and released with Apache license v2. The tricky thing is that this gets around Sun's grip on the JVM but also implies that platform independent code is no longer platform independent... JVM bytecode can be converted to DalvikVM code though, but there is no just in time compiler for JVM to DalvikVM yet though, so e.g. Jython is not really nice implemented on it yet, although there is jythonroid http://code.google.com/p/jythonroid/ The current ARM chip is claimed to have hardware support for JVM though, even though Android should not be platform dependent of course. Any opinion about the JVM - DalvikVM issue? /Roland On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 08:39, Ivan F. Villanueva B. i...@ffii.org wrote: [moved to c...@] El Tue, Apr 21, 2009 11:28:36PM +0200, Alberto Barrionuevo escribió: On Tuesday 21 April 2009 14:05:42 Ivan F. Villanueva B. wrote: At the moment Google has his own modified implementation of a JRE for his operating system Android. Maybe interesting to check if they call it Java and related issues. Anyway, It seems the mobile Market will boom soon, with all the Internet applications, and Java will be very important again. I have an Android G1 mobile phone myself, and it is like a device coming from the future. Applications are programed in the Google JRE. I'm just testing it, and you have: - no need for backups, everything is synchronized with your Google account (which is of course not nice for privacy issues, but it works just without doing anything) - ssh, irc, jabber, email, facebook, twitter, rss, etc. Even with notifications. - google maps, youtube, music, Internet radio, etc. - translations from among others google - webpages like, wikipedia, etc. No Voice over IP though, but I there is a hack to get root access on the phone. And you can install Debian on it. We are testing this in OPENTIA right now... Please share the results -- Iván F. Villanueva B. ___ Cafe mailing list c...@ffii.org https://lists.ffii.org/mailman/listinfo/cafe ___ Cafe mailing list c...@ffii.org https://lists.ffii.org/mailman/listinfo/cafe --- End of Forwarded Message ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy 1.1 beta release
It is also hard for people to process fractional numbers when they are thinking about speed. '2 times the speed' feels a lot easier to understand than '2.1' times the speed. And once you get to numbers less than 1, things break down altogether. If you want to tell me that something is slower, I don't expect to hear it as 'some number less than 1' times the speed. I want a very hard break at the point 0, and for you then to go about telling me how many times slower than something that something else is. For most measurements, I would be happy if nobody mentioned the words 'speed', 'faster' and 'slower' at all. What I am _really_ interested, is a measurement of time. And I have a much easier time understanding time quantities, which I am used to dealing with, than speed quantites which rarely show up in life. So while I am always a bit hazy on what 'x times the speed' really means, when you change this to 'this program runs in half the time, one quarter of the time, twice the time, or even .8 of the time' I have a much easier time of it. I'm used to measuring time, and I expect it to be linear. I'm not used to measuring speed, and I keep worrying 'is this linear'? 'is this logarithmic?' 'is this exponential?'. It is only when I get to measure the actual times taken to do some sort of task, say a benchmark, that I get any real sense of whether a change seems to be a trivial small improvement, or a colossal major one. I wonder if others feel the same way. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy 1.1 beta release
In a message of Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:34:17 +0200, Laura Creighton writes: snip less than 1' times the speed. I want a very hard break at the point 0, and for you then to go about telling me how many times slower than something that something else is. Aargh! I meant at the point 1, of course. Which may indicate that inside my head I would like positive numbers to mean 'faster' and negative numbers to mean 'slower' or some such nonsense. :) Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] did we submit any europython talks?
In a message of Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:08:48 +0200, Antonio Cuni writes: Maciej Fijalkowski wrote: Does anyone knows so far he's going to the EP? besides Laura of course. yes, I plan to go there. Submitting a JIT talk would be nice. Armin et. al, what do you think? I think submitting an abstract would be good. I think we had better have a 'State of the PyPy' talk, and submit that, and then later decide what should go into the talk. We need to make sure that nobody gets the idea that PyPy is dead Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] new discussion happening on stdlib-sig http://mail.python.org/pipermail/stdlib-sig/
benchmarking Python. Particularly how the unladen swallow benchmarks need to be extended before other python implementations can use them. We might want to donate some benchmarks. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] did we submit any europython talks?
In a message of Sat, 04 Apr 2009 10:06:46 MDT, Maciej Fijalkowski writes: Not that I know of either, although I'm not coming. On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 9:59 AM, holger krekel hol...@merlinux.eu wrote: On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 17:56 +0200, Samuele Pedroni wrote: Samuele ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev Given that I am on the talks committee, if you want to submit one, I can probably get it in even if it is late. I think showing off the JIT would be a really good thing to do. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] EuroSciPy -- Place to find people who might like to try out the JIT?
just a thought, Laura --- Forwarded Message Return-Path: python-announce-list-bounces+lac=openend...@python.org Delivery-Date: Mon Mar 23 09:32:52 2009 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:59:56 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Mike_M=FCller?= mmuel...@python-academy.de Organization: Python Academy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-announce-l...@python.org Subject: EuroSciPy 2009, Leipzig, Germany, July 25-26 EuroSciPy 2009 == We're pleased to announce the EuroSciPy 2009 Conference to be held in Leipzig, Germany on July 25-26, 2009. http://www.euroscipy.org This is the second conference after the successful conference last year. Again, EuroSciPy will be a venue for the European community of users of the Python programming language in science. Call for Participation - -- If you are a scientist using Python for your computational work, we'd love to have you formally present your results, methods or experiences. To apply to present a talk at this year's EuroSciPy, please submit an abstract of your talk as a PDF, MS Word or plain text file to mmueller at python-academy dot de. The deadline for abstract submission is April 30, 2009. Papers and/or presentation slides are acceptable and are due by June 15, 2009. Presentations will be allotted 30 minutes. Registration - Registration is open. The registration fee is 100.00 ¤ for early registrants and will increase to 150.00 ¤ for late registration after June 15, 2009. Registration will include breakfast, snacks and lunch for Saturday and Sunday. Please register here: http://www.euroscipy.org/presentations/index.html Important Dates - --- March 21Registration opens April 30Abstract submission deadline May 15 Acceptance of presentations May 30 Announcement of conference program June 15 Early bird registration deadline June 15 Paper/slides submission deadline July 20 - 24Pre-Conference courses July 25/26 Conference Venue - - mediencampus Poetenweg 28 04155 Leipzig Germany See http://www.euroscipy.org/venue.html for details. Help Welcome - You like to help make the EuroSciPy 2009 a success? Here are some ways you can get involved: * attend the conference * submit an abstract for a presentation * give a lightning talk * make EuroSciPy known: - write about it on your website - in your blog - talk to friends about it - post to local e-mail lists - post to related forums - spread flyers and posters in your institution - make entries in relevant event calendars - anything you can think of * inform potential sponsors about the event * become a sponsor If you're interested in volunteering to help organize things or have some other idea that can help the conference, please email us at mmueller at python-academy dot de. Sponsorship - --- Do you like to sponsor the conference? There are several options available: http://www.euroscipy.org/sponsors/become_a_sponsor.html Pre-Conference Courses - -- Would you like to learn Python or about some of the most used scientific libraries in Python? Then the Python Summer Course [1] might be for you. There are two parts to this course: * a two-day course Introduction to Python [2] for people with programming experience in other languages and * a three-day course Python for Scientists and Engineers [3] that introduces some of the most used Python tools for scientists and engineers such as NumPy, PyTables, and matplotlib Both courses can be booked individually [4]. Of course, you can attend the courses without registering for EuroSciPy. [1] http://www.python-academy.com/courses/python_summer_course.html [2] http://www.python-academy.com/courses/python_course_programmers.html [3] http://www.python-academy.com/courses/python_course_scientists.html [4] http://www.python-academy.com/courses/dates.html - -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html --- End of Forwarded Message ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] RunSnakeRun
I'd never heard of this before, and thought it looked cool. http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/runsnakerun/ Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] From Brett in infrastructure
In a message of Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:54:24 +0200, Armin Rigo writes: Hi Laura, On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 05:17:10AM +0200, Laura Creighton wrote: Do we have a tool that does this? Not that I know of. I don't even really know the svnmerge.py he is talking about and we haven't used it in the pypy repository as far as I am aware. Armin Ah, well I was confused. But it turns out so was he, and the tool he wants already comes with svn. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Nicolas Dudfield's GSoC project
This showed up on the pygame mailing list. Nicolas cc'd here. --- Forwarded Message Greetings all, I am a participant in the Google Summer of Code. My application for writing tests for pygame was accepted. The goal, over and above having tests for their own sake, is to make pygame easier to port to new and different platforms and versions of Python. Py3k is due soon, and people have all sorts of ideas for pygame, such as deploying on flash VMs using pypy. Really cool ideas. All of this will be made much easier with more extensive testing in place. A rough estimate for current unittest coverage is about 20%. Ideally, at least 95% would be covered. A brief outline === 1. Write unittests for pygame 2. Develop a speed regression framework 3. Develop an interactive testing framework. 1) Write unittests for pygame == Being a student, the fact is that I don't have that much experience writing tests. I haven't spent 10 years as a QA testing manager in the real world for example. My planned approach, that seems to have won endorsement from the PSF, is to do breadth first testing. Obviously you want bang for your buck, but where to start? By first getting a big picture view of pygame and becoming aware of the interconnections I will be better prepared to go into the next phase. That being that as time allows and with consultation from the more experienced pygamers in the community I will dive into more thorough pinpointed testing. Like all plans you can only really set your sails and adjust accordingly to changing conditions. 2) Develop a speed regression framework Ok, the change I made passes all the tests, great. Next? As part of the tests I will also profile select areas so it's easy to judge when performance regressions are introduced. 3) Develop an interactive testing framework I like to think of testing as ESP; extra-sensory programming. You use the computer as an extra sense in the perception of does it work like it should. Instead of trying all the different permutations yourself (haphazardly and slowly), you instruct your servant to do them signalling the result in a condensed form. Does all that work? Your computer signals yes (hopefully). The two of you zip through the tasks. Some times it is hard to instruct your faithful servant though. Jiles, Did you hear that mp3? Did it play twice?. Jiles can only hear the other world. You have to tell Jiles to help you as best he can; running through a batch of tests in a logical order, asking you if they passed, and carefully recording your response. I will develop a framework for interactive testing. At this stage I am thinking it would be good to use pygame as the gui component but if something else in the python opensource world allows the job to be done faster I will probably use that. I have a little experience with PyQt4. Conclusion == There is lot's of work ahead and I will appreciate any help and advice. Thanks, akalias, aka Nicholas Dudfield ps. My blog is at blog.akalias.net and my irc handle: akalias. --- End of Forwarded Message My thoughts -- this is too ambitious a project for a summer. Just getting the unit tests into pygame may take the whole time. But if you want a speed regression framework, well, we sort of have a way to measure the speed of pypy and graph the results. See. http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2007/12/various-performance-improvements.html Whatever you want to do, Nicholas, you probably don't want to write a whole new testing framework from scratch. (We did that. We know how much work that is. ) but instead write something so that people can use their existing frameworks to measure performance. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] If we are getting somewhere with a port of pygame ...
now would be a great time to let the pygame list know.
Laura, going back to vacation, and not going to be the person who
tells them if there is any telling that needs doing.
--- Forwarded Message
Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Delivery-Date: Mon Apr 14 02:04:47 2008
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:04:39 +1000
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Dudfield?= [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [pygame] SDL ctypes ImportError
In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
hello,
pygame-ctypes has been abandoned.
The authors email is in the docs if you'd like to email him. You
might get a good response on the ctypes list to your issue.
cheers,
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:50 AM, PyMike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,
I've been interested in making something similar to pygame, but completely
in python. I came across http://www.pygame.org/ctypes/ and after I installed
the SDL lib I get this error when I run __init__.py...
Traceback (most recent call last):
File C:\Python25\Lib\site-packages\SDL\dll.py, line 221, in module
_dll = SDL_DLL('SDL', 'SDL_Linked_Version')
File C:\Python25\Lib\site-packages\SDL\dll.py, line 54, in __init__
_platform_library_name(library_name)
ImportError: Dynamic library SDL was not found
...and I have all the SDL DLLs that are included pygame in the same dir as
the SDL lib. I want to be able to include SDL with the pkg and not have
users have to install it into their system folder for the python lib to
work.
Please help!
--
- pymike (pymike93.googlepages.com)
--- End of Forwarded Message
___
pypy-dev@codespeak.net
http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Looks like Macij's talk was a hit with the attendees
Alas, I still cannot get them to remove my name from the list of presenters. Forward from Python-organisers From: Brian Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: pycon-organizers Pycon-Organizers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since we are nearing the 50% participation mark on survey collection, I think it is fair to start analyzing the results. Once the paper forms are hand entered, I am happy to say, we will pass 50% user participation in the survey. This alone, speaks volumes. Here is a link, if you prefer raw data view: http://tinyurl.com/2eoab2 snip OVERVIEW On the highest level, here are some comparisons between the last year data (found here http://wiki.python.org/moin/PyCon2007/Feedback): - 500+ Surveys were filled out this time, versus 150, last time - There were slightly more first timers this year 60.6% than last year 56% - Overall satisfaction dropped slightly from 3.62/4 to 3.28/4 - Satisfaction with keynotes dropped from 3.28/4 to 2.78/4 - Satisfaction with talks dropped from 3.12/4 to 2.81/4 - Satisfaction with the network dropped sharply from 3.01/4 to 2.19/4 - Satisfaction with the food dropped from 3.0/4 to 2.61/4 - Likelihood of attending next year dropped from 3.4/4 to 3.26/4 - There was an increase of attendance of tutorials from 31.1% to 44.4% The results on preference of Only weekdays, including one weekend days, and including two weekend days, remained about the same. The top 5 talks (including keynotes) were: - Keynote: Guido van Rossum 41.4% 173 - Core Python Containers -- Under the Hood Mr. Raymond D Hettinger 20.1% 84 - Keynote: Brian 'Fitz' Fitzpatrick 18.9% 79 - The State of Django Adrian Holovaty17.7% 74 - Keynote: Van Lindberg 16.3% 68 The top 10 talks not including keynotes: - Core Python Containers -- Under the Hood Mr. Raymond D Hettinger 20.1% 84 - The State of Django Adrian Holovaty17.7% 74 - Sights and sounds with pyglet Mr. Alex Holkner 14.8% 62 - The State of PyPyMaciej Fijalkowski (merlinux GmbH) ; Ms. Laura A Creighton (Open End AB) 13.6% 57 - SQLAlchemy 0.4 and BeyondMike Bayer 13.2% 55 - Using PyGame and PySight to Create an Interactive Halloween ActivityMr. John Harrison (Insight Industries) 12.9% 54 - Consuming HTML Ian Bicking (The Open Planning Project) 11.2% 47 - nose: testing for the lazy coderJason Pellerin (Leapfrog Online) 10.5% 44 - IronPython: The Road Ahead Mr. Jim Hugunin (Microsoft) 10.5% 44 - Tahoe: A Robust Distributed Secure Filesystem Brian Warner 10.3% 43 --- End of Forwarded Message ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Looks like Macij's talk was a hit with the attendees
And looks like I cannot spell this morning, sorry about that Maciej Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] JIT SoC
In a message of Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:42:53 +0100, Carl Friedrich Bolz writes: Gary Robinson wrote: 2) I understand Google is suppling $5000 per project ($4500 for the student). Is there any reason an outside company can't throw a little extra money into the pot for a particular task to sweeten the motivation for that task to be done in the SoC? Another thing to note -- it is possible to fund the PyPy project directly. If the idea of paying the people who are already working on the project -- but aren't students -- to do things you would like done has appeal, we can probably work something out. Laura Creighton ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Tim Bray Blog
In a message of Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:48:16 +0100, Stephan Diehl writes: Hi all, just found this (at reddit, what a time waster :-) ): http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/03/03/Python-at-Sun At the end, he's saying: Quick Python trivia question: Near as I can tell, Guido works half-time on Python over at Google. Is there anyone in the world, aside from Frank and Ted, getting paid to work full-time on Python? Within pypy, there are several people to work full time on python, aren't there? Stephan There was as one time, and we hope there will be again. But our EU funding ran out last year. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Sun's Open JDK Challenge http://openjdk.java.net/challenge/
In a message of Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:13:28 +0100, holger krekel writes: lots of good stuff what looks to me like a completely workable plan However, IMO the main current issue is to come up with possible goals and technical promises. Any comments and ideas about possible PyPy/JVM Da-Vinci technical goals? yes, we need to hear from Samuele who is on John Rose's lead team for making adaptation to the JVM as suits dynamic languages. How this and the Da Vinci Machine hang together is not clear to me -- at least the last time I thought I understood it, Samuele made it clear to me that my model of what was going on was a grossly oversimplified model of what really was. Otherwise i guess we may need to wait for Anto and Niko getting back. Maybe, but maybe we ought to get started ahead of time. I happen to know Samuele's workload for 2 weeks from now -- we have an in house design sprint. If we could get some things settled ahead of time, this week, then this might be easier for him. Also, one reason I posted this here was that I was interested in hearing from people who are on this list, but so far not large contributors to the PyPy code base. Interested Lurkers, as it were. Are there any of you out there? Does this sound like something any of you are interested in? Laura best cheers, holger ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] In case you don't read comp.lang.python.announce
Looks like we are being asked for by name. Laura --- Forwarded Message From: Raymond Hettinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: comp.lang.python.announce Subject: Call for Papers (Python or PyPy): Workshop on Self-sustaining Systems (S3) 2008 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:41:44 -0800 (PST) Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 95 *** Workshop on Self-sustaining Systems (S3) 2008 *** May 15-16, 2008 Potsdam, Germany http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/s3/ - -- Call for papers: The Workshop on Self-sustaining Systems (S3) is a forum for discussion of topics relating to computer systems and languages that are able to bootstrap, implement, modify, and maintain themselves. One property of these systems is that their implementation is based on small but powerful abstractions; examples include (amongst others) Squeak/ Smalltalk, COLA, Klein/Self, PyPy/Python, Rubinius/Ruby, and Lisp. Such systems are the engines of their own replacement, giving researchers and developers great power to experiment with, and explore future directions from within, their own small language kernels. S3 will be take place May 15-16, 2008 at the Hasso-Plattner-Institute in Potsdam, Germany. It is an exciting opportunity for researchers and practitioners interested in self-sustaining systems to meet and share their knowledge, experience, and ideas for future research and development. - -- Invited talk: Ian Piumarta: Late-bound Object Lambda Architectures (Viewpoints Research Institute, USA) - -- Submissions and proceedings: S3 invites submissions of high-quality papers reporting original research, or describing innovative contributions to, or experience with, self-sustaining systems, their implementation, and their application. Papers that depart significantly from established ideas and practices are particularly welcome. Submissions must not have been published previously and must not be under review for any another refereed event or publication. The program committee will evaluate each contributed paper based on its relevance, significance, clarity, and originality. Revised papers will be published as post-proceedings in the Springer LNCS series. Papers should be submitted electronically via EasyChair at http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=s3 in PDF format. Submissions must be written in English (the official language of the workshop) and must not exceed 20 pages. They should use the LNCS format, templates for which are available at http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html. - -- Venue: Hasso-Plattner-Institut (Potsdam, Germany) - -- Important dates: Submission of papers: February 15, 2008 Author notification: April 11, 2008 Revised papers due: April 25, 2008 S3 workshop: May 15-16, 2008 Final papers for LNCS post-proceedings due: June 6, 2008 - -- Chairs: * Robert Hirschfeld (Hasso-Plattner-Institut Potsdam, Germany) * Kim Rose (Viewpoints Research Institute, USA) - -- Program committee: * Johan Brichau, Universite Catholique de Louvain, Belgium * Pascal Costanza, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium * Wolfgang De Meuter, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium * Stephane Ducasse, INRIA Lille, France * Michael Haupt, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, Germany * Robert Hirschfeld, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, Germany * Dan Ingalls, Sun Microsystems Laboratories, USA * Martin von Löwis, Hasso-Plattner-Institut, Germany * Hidehiko Masuhara, University of Tokyo, Japan * Ian Piumarta, Viewpoints Research Institute, USA * David Ungar, IBM, USA - -- Registration fees: Early (until April 18, 2008) * Regular participants: EUR 160 * Students: EUR 80 Late (after April 18, 2008) * Regular participants: EUR 170 * Students: EUR 90 - -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-announce-list Support the Python Software Foundation: http://www.python.org/psf/donations.html --- End of Forwarded Message ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy talk not accepted at PyCon
In a message of Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:58:39 +0100, Maciek Fijalkowski writes: Laura Creighton wrote: snip This is slightly misleading. There *is* pypy talk (Christians about stackless) accepted, just not this one. Cheers, fijal Ah yes, sorry about that. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Sandboxing in Pypy and Crunchy
In a message of Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:56:17 -0400, Andre Roberge writes: Hi Laura, Hmm, I'm not sure I can do that very well... the best I can do I think is to describe what it does. 1. Crunchy retrieves an html page. 2. It process it, removing pre-existing javascript and various undesired html tags 3. It identifies where it needs to add custom elements (new html tags javascript code) 4. It feeds the page to the browser, leaving a line of communication open, waiting for user instruction. At step 3. above, a new thread is started for each place in the page where an interaction with a Python interpreter is required. Following user interaction (click of a button or entering some code in an html input box), the user code is fed back to the appropriate interpreter (thread) and the result is sent back to the browser. If I recall correctly, the interpreter used is a small variation from code.py included in Python standard library.It is this part (I believe) that needs to be sandboxed - a single module. I'm still confused. Once you have figured out each place in the page where an interaction with a python interpreter is wanted -- where do you want the python interpreter which runs that code to itself run? locally, on the same machine that has the browser? inside the browser? or do you open up a connection to some other machine -- yours, perhaps -- send the code there, and run it, and then send some sort of result back to the machine where the student is running the browser? Wherever this is, this is where you need to run pypy. And all of these are possible. You can run a sandboxed version of javascript -- a pypy with a javascript front end -- in your browser. You can even embed a sandboxed version of a python console in a browser. too. Where does the student's code run? On the student's machine? or on the teacher's server machine? Right now Crunchy is primarily used in a single user environment. It would be possible to host it on a server, but it would be very insecure to do so. Ideally it should be hosted in a secure way on a server in most situations. Let me check one more thing -- are you running crunchy with the idea that every student has one host machine, and every host machine has one student? And crunchy runs standalone on each and every machine? So your sandbox is to protect the student from him or her self? Because that is what this sounds like to me. If so, then each student needs a pypy intepreter. But, usually, you want to sandbox somebody because the code they are running is on a machine they share with other users, especially a time sharing system where the other users could be using the machine simultaneously. Is this what you plan to do? Because, in that case, it is only the timesharing system that needs to be running pypy. And the students could connect to it using a crunchy-client that ran under Cpython. What is the part you want to sandbox? The code that parses the html page, looking for python code to run? (I don't think so, but I could be confused.) Or the actual python code it finds? The ability to sandbox is a property of the architecture of pypy. It's not a module that you could port to Cpython. The person you want to sandbox has to be running pypy. Darn :(I was hoping I could somehow just call a sandboxed interpreter module Aha. Sandboxing is not something that you construct around the outside of arbitrary code. It is a function of the transation process itself. You need to construct a sandboxed version of pypy, and use that to run any code that you want sandboxed. When you run the special pypy-c-sandbox executable, instead of running any library or system calls, it instead marshals the operation name and the arguments to its stdout and it waits for the marshalled result on its stdin. Which means there has to be an 'other side' -- a separate process that reads the stdout and does something with it and then marshals it up and sends it back. This has 2 implications. First of all, if the other side hasn't been written with the ability to do something appropriate with a particular library or system call that is of interest to you, then we will have to write that part before the program will be of use. Not every python system call is supported now. We'd have to investigate to see if you need one that hasn't been written yet. And secondly, it is not the case that this second program, the other side, is written in such a way that it, in effect, says 'using my Godlike powers of understanding, I know that you, nasty person, just tried to break out of the sandbox using a buffer overflow! I won't allow that!! ' Instead, the reason that things are secure is that no matter what horrible things the other side is asked to deal with, the user is still waiting for something to come back to his stdin. If all you can do is read from stdin and write to stdout, then there is no ability to exploit whatever bug you are interested in. You
[pypy-dev] getting the IBM talk to run with firefox.
I've got some advice from IBM on how to get our talk there to display properly. It's still not working for me. But perhaps some of you, especially those of you with macs can try it. Laura --- Forwarded Message Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Laura Creighton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Martin J Hirzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Copy of your PyPy Talk X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF277 June 21, 2006 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: John Noschese [EMAIL PROTECTED] Laura, Did you try installing the windows media ActiveX control for Firefox? If not try this: http://support.mozilla.com/kb/ActiveX Thanks, John John Noschese Watson Audio Visual Group (914) 784-7223 T/L 863 Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://reswat4.research.ibm.com/projects/tcs/labops.nsf/pages/sss.av.html Laura Creighton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/28/2007 11:26 AM To: John Noschese/Watson/Contr/[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Laura Creighton [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martin J Hirzel/Watson/[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Copy of your PyPy Talk In a message of Wed, 28 Nov 2007 09:45:11 EST, John Noschese writes: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00510AE3852573A1_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Laura, If you're using Firefox here are some instructions: Using Firefox to view Webcasts: Please follow the Mozilla recommendations in order to view the Research webcast presentations. The navigation will take users that do note have the plug-in to download Activex Control and hit continue I don't know how to do this. Is this a url, or what I should try to point at? Or what? Please ensure your firewall will allow you to navigate to the external site trusted site You will be prompted to a green screen to Download the precompiled Plug-in For users using Mozilla Firefox Version 2.0.0.3 will need to select the Firefox 1.5 Plug in and hit the Click Here link. Please adhere to the warning before downloading. You will only need to download the plug-in once You must restart your Mozilla browser and click on the Research webcast presentation link Ok, now I need to know how to get to the 'download the presentation plugin page'. This is not happening automatically when I try to look at the zip file. Hope this helps. Thanks, John We're getting somewhere, but aren't quite there yet. Laura - --=_alternative 0060B1DD852573A1_= ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] pycon 2008
In a message of Sat, 17 Nov 2007 02:46:19 +0100, Christian Tismer writes: Simon Burton wrote: Is anyone planning on going ? doing a talk ? Some people from Open End will be coming. How many is not set yet. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Do we want to do this?
http://www.fosdem.org/2008/call_for_devrooms FOSDEM will take place on 23 and 24 February 2008, and we provide so-called Developer Rooms (devrooms) as well as Stands (booths) to Free and Opensource projects. For every devroom we invite a project to organize talks, open discussions and/or hacking sessions. We offer an environment for developer collaboration, but we have only a limited number of rooms at our disposal. Something for FOSS projects? All Stand or Developer room request must be sent in *before Monday 2007-11-26, 23:59 CET*. - Looks like it could be fun Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] missing things for making PyPy production ready (for some value of production)
In a message of Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:40:54 GMT, Douglas McNeil writes: /lurk Arbitrary code is less interesting to me than JIT-powered fast numerical code. Moreover, we numerics types have much lower standards of production ready than the general public, and are willing to turn on options with names like --make-dangerous-assumptions-about-code-for-speed -do-not-use-this-flag-really-do-not-use-it-i-warned-you. I have this uncontrollable urge to make these options for you. :-) thanks for brightening an already pretty bright day. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] pypy on Tim Bray's blog
In a message of Wed, 14 Nov 2007 03:53:18 +0100, Jacob Hallén writes: snip So I'll definitely complain if you spend a lot of time on Ruby (or Smalltalk for that matter) before Python's all the way there. I think that'd be a bad idea for a whole range of reasons - get the last 10% done for Python first before you take even more on your plates. We all know that last 10% tends to be the hardest part. Focus is important. If you can't make that work for Python, you'd have a hard time making it work for any other language too (or convincing people that you can). Of course I realize I have no real voice in this project, but that's my in put. I don't think you understand the state of our project. There is practically nothing left that is 'python-centric' left to work on, unless you have a burning desire to have the 2.5 features we don't have yet, which is scheduled to get finished next week anyway. This is hardly any work. Where we need work is to make the thing run a lot faster. So, better gc, more work on the JIT -- and play better with c-extensions, and enable us to use the stackless transform on CLI and JVM, and the generated JIT on that as well. All this stuff is translation level stuff. Thus it is relevant to all the app-level input languages we support, not any particular one. Speed up one, you speed up them all. It took a 10 day sprint for some of the pypyers and the squeak experts at the SCG to get Smalltalk up and running. http://pypysqueak.blogspot.com/ Assuming we could find a small group of similarly competant ruby language experts, we ought to be able to do the same thing in the same sort of time range. If we cannot find them, and have to do it all ourselves, it will take longer, since we aren't experts on the arcane and obscure details about the ruby language that only ruby wizards know. And then we can take Tim Bray's money and give him the fast ruby he wants by working on precisely the same things that will give you the fast python you want. So I don't see why you aren't up in the front row cheering these developments as loudly as you can. Right now the most promising path to get you what you want, which I see as a fast python that is production-quality and suitable for deploying Grok web apps, runs hand in hand with Tim Bray's desire for a fast ruby that is production-quality and suitable to deploy rails apps. You guys want the same thing! You don't even have to squint! Why aren't you cheering? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] pypy on Tim Bray's blog
In a message of Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:53:33 +0100, Martijn Faassen writes: Hey, Laura Creighton wrote: In a message of Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:14:54 +0100, Martijn Faassen writes : Hi there, http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2007/11/08/PyPy It might be worth it for someone to comment on it, as the one comment there is rather negative about PyPy (it'd really help to have PyPy interpreters in production somewhere, as before you do, the criticism in the comment cannot be properly countered) Somebody not in the project can comment on it if they like. I'm not in the habit of responding to troll-bait. If that person sincerely thinks that we haven't produced much in 2 years then he either is completely unaware of what we have done, or he cannot understand it. I'm fine with combatting ignorance, but not the with people in the 'my-sports-teams-is-better-than-your-sports-team' mode. It's a negative message in a widely read blog. Even if it's offensive and wrong, it's also bad marketing for the project. By now any (minor) damage it did is done though, I guess, as it'll disappear off people's radar again. I of course don't agree that you didn't accomplish anything, but of course on the other hand I continue on my mission to poke you guys gently about seeing PyPy into production (my own work). Once PyPy is used in production there's an easy way to blow any such criticism out of the water. If it never happens, you've accomplished research goals, which are worthwhile by itself, but I'd prefer to see something more pragmatic myself in addition. :) Us, too. But Samuele, Armin, Jacob and myself are now on a 2 week US road show speaking with major players in US companies every day of the week. We don't have time for baby-trolls even if we had the inclination. snip I also live close to that world. It's an audience you want to reach, I think, so it was interesting to read what came out of your meeting from that side. I guess he'll believe you once you have a compliant JITed PyPy interpreter running on the JVM in production, then. :) Nothing that dramatic. Just a Ruby that runs at the speed of CPython. Though, goodness knows, perhaps John Rose and Charles Nutter will tell him that we are for real, and that will be enough. It's hard to know the difference between a genuine revolution in the industry, and a lot of hot air. But the odds are on anything radical being the second. After all, if it is so hot, why hasn't somebody else already done it? There is no answer to that. The hard things that change the world were often done by people who weren't expected to amount to anything, and just kept on truckin' anyway. Sooner, rather than later, Tim Bray will have his answer, and nobody will blame him for being skeptical about our ability to deliver on what we promise, because we promise a lot, and something that has never been done before. Sometimes the caterpillar wants to become a larger, healthier caterpillar. Sometimes it's time to become a butterfly. It's too bad the potential of a compliant, maintainable Python implementation on the JVM doesn't seem to make it to his blog. I assum e you also pitched actual work on *Python* on, say, the JVM, to him as a possible candidate for funding. As opposed to any arbitrary language, which basically lets Tim change the topic to a Ruby discussion. Tim is very Ruby focused. He's not interested in python, he said, because 'the ruby community is more vibrant'. Vibrant is measured in body-count. body-count? As in how many people are part of it (I imagine Python would do pretty well compared to Python) or how many people die in horrible flame wars? :) I think 'how many people attend Ruby developers conferences' and 'how many people use rails' but I am not 100% convinced of that. snip It's glad to hear from your side, thanks! I didn't mean to criticize you at all, I was just curious to explain the blog entry which presented PyPy in a somewhat unusual light. We go spend a whole day at Sun on Monday, focused on the JVM. John Rose, who is organising this, and who knows Samuele from a currently running Java expert committee, has invited some people, including some JRuby people to attend. John Rose is already _really excited about this_. And we left with him very impressed. Wew had a blast. I think he would liek to attend a Sprint. And he would like it if we made our next pypy focus -- getting the jit to work with the JVM. Wouldn't that be fun. There is nothing but good news here. Be happy for us. All right, I'm happy for you. :) Thank you, and we will keep your concerns under consideration. But please remember that the PyPy dev team needs to eat, pay rent, and the like. While developing a Ruby front end may not be the most fun thing we could do, it may be plenty more fun than the other things we would end up doing instead just to make the financial ends meet. Laura, happier than ever today
Re: [pypy-dev] pypy on Tim Bray's blog
In a message of Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:14:54 +0100, Martijn Faassen writes: Hi there, http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2007/11/08/PyPy It might be worth it for someone to comment on it, as the one comment there is rather negative about PyPy (it'd really help to have PyPy interpreters in production somewhere, as before you do, the criticism in the comment cannot be properly countered) Somebody not in the project can comment on it if they like. I'm not in the habit of responding to troll-bait. If that person sincerely thinks that we haven't produced much in 2 years then he either is completely unaware of what we have done, or he cannot understand it. I'm fine with combatting ignorance, but not the with people in the 'my-sports-teams-is-better-than-your-sports-team' mode. I'm not sure how to interpret Tim Bray's post. Frankly, I was a bit disappointed by what made it in there. It's interesting to analyze as it gives some clue about how your pitch was received and understood. Tim can understand all the implications of new technology and we really impressed him. His problem was in believing that we had done what we had said, and now that we can do what we promised. And he is not techie -- in the sense of being a language designer who has read all the neat scientific papers of language design -- he lives close to the programming-not-deeply-informed-by-computer science world. It's too bad the potential of a compliant, maintainable Python implementation on the JVM doesn't seem to make it to his blog. I assume you also pitched actual work on *Python* on, say, the JVM, to him as a possible candidate for funding. As opposed to any arbitrary language, which basically lets Tim change the topic to a Ruby discussion. Tim is very Ruby focused. He's not interested in python, he said, because 'the ruby community is more vibrant'. Vibrant is measured in body-count. He's funding all the reimplimentations of Ruby, and know s the people, and likes the people. So he has a certain amount of loyalty to them, too. He really wants to make Rails faster. He says Django is as good as rails or something to that effect, but that doesn't change the fact that what he wants to do is make rails faster. It's also too bad that the whole idea of instrumenting the translation process to do neat stuff doesn't really make it to his blog post. The tainting stuff is mentioned, but that's it. What about garbage collectors and JITs? He saw all of these. When I asked about funding for tools to make it easier to, say, find out if Erlang-type concurrency was a good idea, he said he would think about it. His wide-finder experiment only showed that the Erlang string-processing libraries aren't as good as Python's, not if Erlang's concurrency model would be a good things to stick into languages. He liked the idea of experimentation, very much, but we had just blown him away with the architecture that he didn't want to think about that then. Plus he got an emergency trip to Japan put in his plate at short notice. Think of this as very positive. We go spend a whole day at Sun on Monday, focused on the JVM. John Rose, who is organising this, and who knows Samuele from a currently running Java expert committee, has invited some people, including some JRuby people to attend. John Rose is already _really excited about this_. What's the worst that can happen? We get to support our Python habit by building an interpreter for Ruby. Somebody was going to come along and do it sooner or later, i.e. as soon as PyPy is making everything go at speed, not just integer math. i.e. as soon as we stop spending 50% of our time in the garbage collector! There is nothing but good news here. Be happy for us. Regards, Martijn ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] gbg sprint
If you go to http://www.gso.se/ change the language to english, if you prefer, and then look at the calendar you can see what is playing at the concerthouse. jacob and I already have tickets for the piano concert which should be fantastic on the 20th and then have tickets for the 22nd for the Ravel concert. Anybody want me to get some more tickets for them? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] gbg sprint
In a message of Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:29:01 +0100, Armin Rigo writes: Hi Laura, On Tue, Nov 06, 2007 at 01:00:28PM +0100, Laura Creighton wrote: jacob and I already have tickets for the piano concert which should be fantastic on the 20th and then have tickets for the 22nd for the Ravel concert. Anybody want me to get some more tickets for them? While this sounds fantastic, I'm afraid I'll be far too tired for anything at all, on these evenings so close to our return from this crazy trip of ours. Armin I may be in the same state. Hope not. But I suspect I can find a home for my season's ticket if that is the case. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Hi all. I am Looking for a project idea.
In a message of Thu, 01 Nov 2007 00:03:19 -0400, amit writes: Hi, I went across this page http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/project-ideas.html My project requires me to modify an existing compiler or interpreter, or write a program from scratch. I could not figure out how much time it would take to say write an interpreter for Aldor. If someone has some suggestion on any idea that I could put an effort into for 4 weeks (that's when my project work is due) I would be very happy to learn more of pypy. I have fair amount of python coding experience. Regards, Regmee Univ. of Western Ontario, CA The pypy team hangs out on irc.freenode.net in the channel #pypy. Most of us live in Europe, so we'll already be there when you get this mail. All I know about Aldor is that it is a functional language that some people use to do math. I went here: http://www.aldor.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page and didn't learn much because most of the links are stale. Whether modifying pypy makes sense depends a lot on what sort of language you would like to generate. PyPy was designed for dynamic langauges -- so a functional one, while not impossible, may not be the best fit. Do you have to produce an Aldor compiler? The other thing that matters is exactly what your teacher wants you to learn. PyPy's architecture is unique in the world, and we will be happy to talk your ear off about why this is a) necessary and b) a great idea. But it may not be what your teacher is expecting, which can be either fantastic or extremely unfortunate, depending on the teacher. come by and talk to us, Laura Creighton ps - 4 of us are right now putting the polish on a presentation we are giving to IBM Research in NY on Monday. So we have less time to chat than usual. But the rest of the usual suspects will be around :-) ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] bern sprint finished
In a message of Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:28:36 +0100, Antonio Cuni writes: Carl Friedrich Bolz wrote: So, it seems many people liked the blog thing. How about we start a general PyPy blog where we can all post? Should we try to set something up on codespeak or just keep using blogspot? The latter increases the chances that things are happening soon :). Any ideas for a title? pypy.blogspot.com seems already taken by a dead one-entry block :-(. We could then try to get it picked up by the python planet. +1 for the pypy blog: I think it would be cool to have. I think that the best would be to have it on codespeak, with maybe one general pypy blog and several ad-personam ones. Ideally it would be integrated with svn, because we all know that we prefer to write inside emacs/vi/whatever than inside a browser :-), but I admit that it would require much more work to setup such a thing. About the name: if pypy.blogspot.com is already taken, we could try to move to another blog site; for example, pypy.blogger.com seems to be free; I've no clue about advantages/features of one site or another, thou gh. ciao Anto On Saturday, Jacob, Samuele, Armin and I leave for the USA. We are meeting with Humanized in Chicago, then IBM in New York, the Mozilla/Active State/Tim Bray of Sun in Vancouver, then going to a 3 day conference in Santa Cruz, then meeting John Rose of Sun and various other Sun people, then going to Electronic Arts, and then to google on the 14th. Then 2 days of free time in San Francisco, get back on an airplane on the 17th and arrive back here in Göteborg on the 19th, day 1 of the sprint. Ok, we're crazy. :-) But I think that a touring blog would be nice, even as a place to download our thoughts before our brains overflow. Somebody, someplace, must have made emacs binding for a commonly used blogging site, no? Googling isn't helping -- I keep finding everybody and their dog blogging about emacs bindings for every program on this planet, it seems, except the blogging software itself. Anybody know of any? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] http://morepypy.blogspot.com/
thank you for the welcoming post, carl friedrich. now -- can one get listed as a contributor even if one does not have a google account? I fear I may break down and get a google mail for this reason. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Pypy-c error on windows
In a message of Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:18:41 CDT, Raj Bandyopadhyay writes: Hi there I'm new to trying out pypy, and I hope this is the right list to ask questions. I just installed the pypy version for Windows on a Windows XP/Intel platform. However, I get errors when I start it up pypy-c Python 2.4.1 Type help Error calling sys.excepthook: debug: OperationError debug: operrortype: ImportError debug: operror-value: No module named traceback - Any idea what's going on? I'd appreciate getting this working. Thanks Raj This is the right place to ask questions. #pypy on freenode.net is another good place. I don't have a windows installation, but this looks to me as if you need to set your PYTHONPATH to point to wherever the modules are. But without a windows to install, I cannot check and see if I am completely wrong. Sorry about that, Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Anybody been following the Open Mono project?
It is here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page On their wishlist: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List They say that they are looking for a scripting language. Python is liked, but they fear it is too big. see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List#Built-in_Scripting_Language It seems to me that they would like PyPy if we built a small version for them. It also seems as if a really old friend of mine (Ian Darwin) is involved enough in the project to be presenting it to linux Ontario this October. I wonder if some of the ideas we had 20 years ago about lightweight processes and tinier-than-v7 os's have made it into open moko? I wonder if it would be worth it to get a few of the experimental phones? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] pypy cleanup sprint
In a message of Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:21:18 +0200, Carl Friedrich Bolz writes: Hi Paul, Paul deGrandis wrote: If at all possibly, can we also consider a place that has cheaper air fare deals? I'd really like to come to this sprint. The sprint venue (as discussed on IRC a while ago) is really quite convenient for many, since Samuele, Laura, Jacob, Bea are living there, many of us know the sprint venue and the city, etc. So I don't think changing is a good idea. Maybe you can fly to Stockholm (or even Kopenhagen) and take the train? That takes a few hours but is actually very nice. Cheers, Carl Friedrich Planes may actually be cheaper. Where are you Paul? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] pypy cleanup sprint
In a message of Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:33:34 EDT, Paul deGrandis writes: --=_Part_27723_30036397.1189690414424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Philadelphia, PA int the US. Paul On 9/13/07, Carl Friedrich Bolz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Laura Creighton wrote: Planes may actually be cheaper. Where are you Paul? but it is more stressful and you get to see less :-) Cheers, Carl Friedrich Well, taking the Train from Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm will definitely be pleasant. You can also take the overnight ferry from Kiel in Germany or Fredrikshavn in Denmark. For you, though, the bulk of the cost will be on the transatlantic flight. Last time I checked, flying KLM to Amsterdam and then Amsterdam to Göteborg was the cheapest, despite the fact that KLM is not a discount airline. http://www.lfv.se/templates/LFV_InfoSida_Bred1582.aspx lists the airlines that run to Landvetter Airport. Discount airlines include: Malmö Aviation (sometimes), Göteborg City Airline (sometimes) Sterling, Welcome Air, Blue1, Widerøe Then there is Göteborg Ciry airport. They have nothing but discount airlines flying there. http://www.goteborgcityairport.se/info/resenaerer/destinationer.asp Let me know if you need help with anything. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] pypy cleanup sprint
In a message of Fri, 14 Sep 2007 04:31:34 +0200, Christian Tismer writes: Laura Creighton wrote: ... Well, I'd like to come if I'm wellcomed. Has there been a concrete timing proposal, already? -- Christian Tismer :^) mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tismerysoft GmbH : Have a break! Take a ride on Python's Johannes-Niemeyer-Weg 9A :*Starship* http://starship.python.net/ 14109 Berlin : PGP key - http://wwwkeys.pgp.net/ work +49 30 802 86 56 mobile +49 173 24 18 776 fax +49 30 80 90 57 05 PGP 0x57F3BF04 9064 F4E1 D754 C2FF 1619 305B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04 whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/ Of course you are most welcome. People are trying to find a time now. see: http://doodle.ch/5awzskkt5mian94a There is now a direct flight from Berlin to Gbg. http://www.goteborgcityairport.se/info/resenaerer/destinationer.asp from (Tegel) -- so not sure exactly where that is, via Air Berlin. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy work plan
Hi Simon. I never like to quote somebody's email without informing them. I am about to use ICCARUS (why 2 Cs) as an example of what I am looking for. The rest is the middle of a discusison that you are not expected to understand. Thank you for ICCARUS. -- Laura In a message of Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:26:55 +0200, Maciek Fijalkowski writes: As you probably have observed already, for the last few months pypy is slowly approaching being usable state instead of having more ultra-cool features, as we've got enough of them to be willing to use them. As we're moving towards maintaining pypy as an open source project I woul d suggest to look around parts of pypy and have list of people who are willing to maintain certain parts. Maintain not in a se nse of developing those, but rather accepting/rejecting patches, keeping it u p to date with other parts, etc. I would also suggest to move parts with no obvious maintainer somewhere else in svn (branch? tag?) not to confuse people who checkout whole svn repository with parts never used by anyone. This option would make it easier to: * have people entering project, since it would be obvious who to contact for different parts. * maintain whole codebase, since some cleanup changes are pervasive enough to break different parts. * this would also hopefully reduce whole code size. I've also checked in pypy parts (more or less) into http://codespeak.net/svn/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/maintainers.txt feel free to add yourself wherever you like and to modify this list as we ll What do you think? Cheers, fijal As mentioned just in irc, I am unhappy with the dividing up of pypy into pieces with maintainers. That way the people who envision the small can dominate those who envision the large, and one of the strengths of this project is the sheer visionary power of some of its members. on the other hand, some tidying would be nice. and we sure as hell could be friendlier for newbies. I am now looking at code visualisation tools, and time visualisation tools. I get the idea that if we could visualise things better, we could undersgtand who knows what about what, and what else, then we would need less in the way of 'task management'. for static things I am thinking of: http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ or everything at the top level simile.mit.edu domain. But then yesterday I read this on the pygame mailing list. . From: Simon Wittber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [pygame] 3D Social Network Visualisation A few evening ago we demonstrated ICCARUS at a web party. It is a piece of software which provides a visualisation of social networks in three dimensions :-) It uses pygame and a Pyrexed OpenGL lib called GFX. You can see screencast here: http://scouta.com/faves/8raO17jT8Y3/ and a vid of the presentation here: http://blog.viddler.com/cdevroe/webjam-iccarus/ Thanks to python and pygame, this project was conceived and implemented over 3 days. .. I thought this was way cool. Especially the 3 days part. I want our code base to work like this. Who knows what? stuff that everybody knows, stuff that carl freidrich and armin and maciek and samuele know, stuff that nobody knows but samuele, and even -- 'stuff that nobody knows' somebody did at one time but we all have forgotten by now. This is a half-baked proposal for code base management, normally I would not mention this at all, but some of us are getting grumpy, and I thought that other ideas, however weird might be welcome. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Sprint report
In a message of Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:54:49 +0200, Maciek Fijalkowski writes: Three guys who's names Jacob doesn't remember were working on flex backend (reusing JavaScript one to be able to produce flex code and some libraries). I've got no idea what was their progress (hopefully they're reading pypy-dev and are able to reply :-) Cheers, fijal I think they were René Dudfield, Alejandro Curia and Lucio Torre, from Australia, Argentina and Argentina, who may not be home yet. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Work plan for PyPy
In a message of Fri, 15 Jun 2007 01:01:17 +0200, Antonio Cuni writes: snip Finally, a note which is not related with the work plan but to a question that appeared in the logs; someone asked whether we want to sell RPython as a stand-alone product. Last sunday I gave a PyPy talk at Pycon italy and, surprisingly enough, RPython was perceived as the only (or the most relevant) usable product of the pypy project. I tried hardly to explain that rpython is basically only an accident and not very usable, but people are still impressed by the 30% speedup. It would be interesting to know if this perception is world-wide or only limited to the attendants of my talk (maybe because I didn't stress enough the pros of the other pypy goals or the cons of rpython). ciao Anto I don't think it is you. I think that most people are not very sophisticated in their appreciation for computer langauges. Culturally deprived, poor things. :-) Maybe we need to run some 'pypy appreciation courses'. :-) I suspect the designers of the Ferrari have the same problem. They probably want to discuss engine-design and Italian styling with their would-be customers. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] PyPy sync next week?
In a message of Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:58 +0200, Antonio Cuni writes: Maciek Fijalkowski wrote: Ok, so what about usual Thursday 17:00? Fine for me. ciao Anto me too. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] Implementing R (GNU S) in PyPy
In a message of Mon, 21 May 2007 17:14:49 +1000, Maurice Ling writes: Hi all, I'm attempting to implement a R (Splus language) interpreter in PyPy so that R statistical modules can be used in Python, as an alternative to R runtime + RPy platform. Currently, I have R language in EBNF, how do I go from here? Thanks in advance, maurice ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev Talk to people on #pypy on irc.freenode.net and I am busy with other things this day. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Did anything happen with the mini coding Sprint in Poland idea?
Dethe Elza is planning his European vacation, and he is flying into Amsterdam, August 16th and then going to Prague. The bulk of the vacation will be in Sofia, with some side trips, and then back to Amsterdam for a return trip Sept 11. So he misses EuroPython. He'd like to meet pypyers face to faqce and hack if possible. Do we have anything planned yet? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] SciPy conference August 14-18 at Caltech
Anybody here going? Even if we don't make a pypy presentation, we should probably make a poster/hand out. This conference is a likely source of the kind of people who do the sort of algorithmic computing that we can expect to best optimise. It would bt nice to get some speedup figures from them. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
Re: [pypy-dev] scheme interpreter
I regularly read the logs of #pypy for when I cannot be around. I learn a lot this way. If the interesting discussion starts happening someplace else, I won't learn as much, which I would consider a shame. Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
[pypy-dev] Paul Fernhout wants edit-and-continue in python
How hard would it be to give it to him? Laura --- Forwarded Message Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivery-Date: Sat Mar 31 06:18:19 2007 From: Paul D. Fernhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061220) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: edu-sig@python.org edu-sig@python.org To clarify, on PataPata, at the moment I am using Jython to prototype a version of a Smalltalk-like system and syntax for the Java (JVM) platform. I am doing this in part to have a system which supports edit and continue, and also in part just because it is fun. I think Java is a terrible language for a human to use because it is too verbose (among other reasons). Still, after ten years, the JVM is a not-that-terrible platform which has the advantage of hype and installed base and can supply about 1/2 C speeds in a portable way. So Java (or JVM byte codes) isn't that awful as a portable machine language -- and it involves less work for a single programmer to maintain a complex application across multiple platforms than for C. Personally, I like Swing, but then, I come from the world (VisualWorks) where most core Swing designers come from. :-) There is no question in my mind that Jython is a much saner way to write code for the JVM than Java in most situations. And Jython is probably a better choice for most JVM things than most of these JVM languages: http://www.robert-tolksdorf.de/vmlanguages.html (unless you already know one of the other languages or have a problem which has a neatly packaged solution in one of those systems). Still, for anything other than writing arbitrary portable fast code (1/2 C) or code that interfaces easily with Java libraries, Python by itself is probably a more reliable cross platform solution than JVM approaches in many situations. In any case, there is still a lot of Python in my own noodling around, at least for now. :-) And also, while I learned a lot about prototypes and their strengths and weaknesses when writing Python code for PataPata to emulate prototypes in Python, if anything, I developed a better respect for how much you could do quirky things in plain old Python when you wanted to or needed to, thus minimizing some of the need to use prototypes for everything. Still, there are always tempting new projects like Factor http://factorcode.org/ which uses FORTH ideals to do amazing things (like with OpenGL) in fairly small footprints and with minimal external dependencies and with fairly few core developer-years of work (though the developers are unusually bright. :-) From the web page: Factor has an optimizing native compiler, automatic memory management with a generational garbage collector, a powerful collections library, and various advanced language features such as higher-order programming, continuations, and extensible syntax. Factor development is done in an interactive environment with a graphical user interface. There is a single-stepping debugger which can travel backwards in time, and extensive documentation. An easy to use C library interface allows one to call C libraries without writing any glue code in C. Bindings for OpenGL, FreeType, X11, Cocoa, and Windows APIs are provided. (I can hope AK's FONC http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/html/writings.htm in a few years will produce something even beyond that, if it succeeds). In any case, I see the JVM, Python, C, FONC, Squeak, and Factor as all possible substrates for running a higher level system on top of. A well designed self-reflective system really should be able to run on all of them with appropriate back ends and interface layers. It just requires a higher level of abstraction than, for example, how PataPata already runs on both top of Python/TK and Jython/Swing. And also a willingness to sacrifice some performance in some situations. :-) Right now, on a 3Ghz AMD64, this new VM in Jython is doing about 25000 message sends a second (and about 30K in Python). This is about 1/1000 the speed of C, but I think when the system reflects on itself and can generate pure Java, I am hoping to have it at Python-ish and Squeak-ish speeds of about 1/20 to 1/100 C overall for loops and calls and sends. But given how fast computers continue to get, I'm not too concerned about performance. Even if it remained at 1/1000 C speed, in ten years, that would mean it would run about the speed of C on today's computers - -- and there are plenty of interesting applications one can run on today's computers. I also have Jython GUI that lets me single step through hand-compiled code. (None of this has been checked in so SourceForge yet though.) From an educational point of view, looking at such a system and changing it, even if the system was never used for any other activity) could help Python-literate people understand more about message passing and VM construction and (abstractly) how a CPU works. I'm certainly learning something from it. :-) I certainly remain completely pro-Python
[pypy-dev] proofreading
I'm available to do 'check-the-English'ing. What I need is a list of files in the order that you would like me to read them, preferably when they are done with the massive-update-for-content phase. I also need to know how to check out a pypy src tree that has the papers - what I have now is missing that part. Then -- do you just want me to fix as I go, or do you want me to mark suggested changes? When I am not sure of the sense of the thing, should that happen, I will just mark up the confusing bits. (But we won't have any of those, now, will we. :-) ) I want to be able to work on these un-connected to the internet. I will check back in periodically, however. How's that? Laura ___ pypy-dev@codespeak.net http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
