Re: [pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[Florian Bruhin]

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 09:13:01AM -0700, Alex Georgie wrote:
> >Where would the money go?
> We actually work with an organization called OpenCollective (
> https://opencollective.com/) that creates a non-profit for you. The idea is
> they handle the legalese and create an account where donations can go. All
> donations and expenses are also on the site, so it becomes fully
> transparent. I believe their cost structure is 5% of donations. We can send
> money straight to them. Does that work for you guys?

https://opencollective.com/opensource claims 5% platform fee + 5% host
fee + ~3% payment fee. So we're down to getting about 57% of funds ;-)

It still doesn't answer the question what we actually would use funds
for (but that's not for you to answer of course :D).

The only reason I can see right now is future development sprints, where
this likely won't yield enough, while another crowdfunding likely would
work out very well.

> >I'm also not sure if this works out. I use pytest a lot, but I rarely
> >look at its documentation.
> Not even as reference? Does that apply to other projects where you're not a
> dev as well? I've heard this feedback before and its fair but my hypothesis
> is that people still go back every now and then for reference and this
> applies evenly across all projects, so it should lead to the same
> proportion of revenue on a larger time frame.

I might go back there for a quick look (not really for pytest because I
know the features I use); but still, I probably wouldn't spend much time
there. I guess it could still work out, but I feel like
assigning/dividing funds manually (think Patreon) both results in a more
fair distribution, and gives me control where my money actually goes,
based on what I find most important/useful/... for what I do.

Just my $0.02 though ;-)

Florian

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Re: [pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[Bruno Oliveira]

Hi all,

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 3:28 PM Floris Bruynooghe  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Mon 30 Jul 2018 at 23:14 -0700, Alex Georgie wrote:
> [...]
> > *How it works*
> >
> > We provide you a script that you add to the Pytest site. That script
> makes
> > a call to our site to create a 'drop' every 2 seconds a user is on your
> > site. If the user is part of our network, we would have provided a cookie
> > to them when they signed in which gets passed to us when that call is
> made.
>
> So every single visitor of pytest.org will be continuously pinging your
> service?  Regardless of being able to make this GDPR compliant that is
> still not something I feel comfortable with to decide for our users.
>

My main concerns are:

1. How do we use this funding? Sprint and conferences could be a good use
for this money.

2. How this would affect visitors, well put by Floris above.

3. Who would be responsible for handling the money? I took a look at
OpenCollective as Alex's suggestion and I like what I saw, it seems they
take care of the bureocracy and core members and then approve Expenses and
Reimbursements, in a very open and transparent manner.

At first I was leaning towards -1 on this, but with OpenCollective in the
game I'm leaning more towards +1.

Cheers,
Bruno.
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Re: [pytest-dev] Code of conduct for pytest organisation on GitHub

[Bruno Oliveira]

Howdy,

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 3:51 PM Florian Bruhin  wrote:

> I was initially sceptical about CoCs in general as well, but after
> spending months researching the topic from both sides and talking to a
> lot of people, it got clear to me that CoCs are a very good thing -
> even/especially in communites which are already very much welcoming and
> healty.
>

I did take a look at the code of conduct, seems good to me. If you want to
go with it, you have my +1.

Cheers,
Bruno.
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Re: [pytest-dev] Code of conduct for pytest organisation on GitHub

[Florian Bruhin]

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 08:12:10PM +0200, Floris Bruynooghe wrote:
> I'm agree that we should probably have a code of conduct.  We had one
> for the sprint (we used https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ + 2
> contact details for violations) and I'm surprised it stopped at the
> sprint.  Probably an oversight.
> 
> I just skimmed through C4 again and didn't spot much useful there, in
> any case the bulk of C4 does not try to address people's conduct.  And
> the language used there is not very suitable for a code of conduct I
> think.  So I'd rather adopt another one.

I fully agree (with both paragraphs)!

> So as to which one to adopt I'm not sure.  The PSF one doesn't say
> anything about enforcement, which may not be ideal.  The PyconUK one
> isn't bad either I think.  But if Dave thinks the contributor-covenant
> is a good choice I'm happy to support that.

The PyConUK one is worded for conferences, which doesn't seem a suitable
choice for projects. We could of course rephrase it, but it's like with
licenses - there are projects where a lot of people put a lot of thought
into a given wording, so writing a homebrewed one is usually a bad idea.

+1 for the Contributor Covenant. It's well established and crafted with
a lot of attention to detail, with quite a big community[1].

I was initially sceptical about CoCs in general as well, but after
spending months researching the topic from both sides and talking to a
lot of people, it got clear to me that CoCs are a very good thing -
even/especially in communites which are already very much welcoming and
healty.

(If needed, I can go into details in September - sorry, exams are coming
closer and closer)

[1] https://github.com/ContributorCovenant/contributor_covenant

Florian

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Re: [pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[Floris Bruynooghe]

Hi,

On Mon 30 Jul 2018 at 23:14 -0700, Alex Georgie wrote:
[...]
> *How it works*
>
> We provide you a script that you add to the Pytest site. That script makes
> a call to our site to create a 'drop' every 2 seconds a user is on your
> site. If the user is part of our network, we would have provided a cookie
> to them when they signed in which gets passed to us when that call is made.

So every single visitor of pytest.org will be continuously pinging your
service?  Regardless of being able to make this GDPR compliant that is
still not something I feel comfortable with to decide for our users.

Which made me check current pytest.org and it includes readthedocs
analytics (probably fair enough) as well as a Google analytics bit.
Anyone in control of this google one?  Do we have use for it?  Could we
remove it?


(I also had a bunch of other considerations mostly voiced already)


Cheers,
Floris
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Re: [pytest-dev] Code of conduct for pytest organisation on GitHub

[Floris Bruynooghe]

Hi,

I'm agree that we should probably have a code of conduct.  We had one
for the sprint (we used https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ + 2
contact details for violations) and I'm surprised it stopped at the
sprint.  Probably an oversight.

I just skimmed through C4 again and didn't spot much useful there, in
any case the bulk of C4 does not try to address people's conduct.  And
the language used there is not very suitable for a code of conduct I
think.  So I'd rather adopt another one.

So as to which one to adopt I'm not sure.  The PSF one doesn't say
anything about enforcement, which may not be ideal.  The PyconUK one
isn't bad either I think.  But if Dave thinks the contributor-covenant
is a good choice I'm happy to support that.


Cheers,
Floris


On Tue 31 Jul 2018 at 14:18 +0200, RonnyPfannschmidt wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> i'd like to note that the C4 process has a general bad actor handling
> mechanism as well.
>
> i vaguely recall there have been various instances to bully projects
> into stuff like the contributors covenant,
> so personally i`m against conduct template that are associated with
> zealots pushing for them aggressively.
>
> i will try to substantiate this claim/memory with actual data later
> today. in case i can*t follow up today please consider it without merit
> until a demonstration is provided.
>
> -- Ronny
>
>
> Am 31.07.2018 um 14:12 schrieb Dave Hunt:
>> https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html looks
>> like a good place to start.
>>
>>> On 31 Jul 2018, at 13:00, Bruno Oliveira >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:54 AM Dave Hunt >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> I’d like to add a code of conduct for my pytest plugins, and as
>>> they’re mostly under the pytest organisation on GitHub I thought
>>> it would make sense to use the same as the pytest project. I was
>>> surprised to find that the pytest project does not currently have
>>> a code of conduct according
>>> to https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/community. Is there one
>>> documented elsewhere? If not, which should we adopt?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm a little surprised myself that we don't have one yet. I agree we
>>> should adopt one. Do you have a suggestion?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Bruno.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[Alex Georgie]

Hey guys,

>are there any plans to adjust the cut should the financial situation ever
allow it at scale?
I haven't given this much thought but it's an option

>I`m also wondering if connecting parties in need of direct/indirect work
on/with the project with freelancers/companies surrounding the projects is
on the horizon.
Can you explain this again? I'm not sure I understand it.

>Where would the money go?
We actually work with an organization called OpenCollective (
https://opencollective.com/) that creates a non-profit for you. The idea is
they handle the legalese and create an account where donations can go. All
donations and expenses are also on the site, so it becomes fully
transparent. I believe their cost structure is 5% of donations. We can send
money straight to them. Does that work for you guys?

>I'm also not sure if this works out. I use pytest a lot, but I rarely
>look at its documentation.
Not even as reference? Does that apply to other projects where you're not a
dev as well? I've heard this feedback before and its fair but my hypothesis
is that people still go back every now and then for reference and this
applies evenly across all projects, so it should lead to the same
proportion of revenue on a larger time frame.

>At the same time, I might spend a lot of time
>looking at documentation of something I just want to try out but never
>use again.
This seems fair too. You will be giving this project a one time burst of
revenue and then never come back. In the longer time frame this should mean
less revenue for the unused project and more for the one you actually use.
I would actually consider this a feature since that small project gets
something. In the current world, larger, more established projects and
those that are good at marketing their funding requirements tend to get a
lions share of donations while smaller projects get next to nothing. Our
approach is to try to increase the pool of people that make those donations
and allows the smaller projects to get some piece of that as well.

Does that seem fair?

Alex

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 1:23 AM, Florian Bruhin  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> some random thoughts:
>
> FWIW I'm -1 on this (mainly because we don't have a good way to recieve
> and distribute money; and I doubt there is one at all), but currently a
> bit in a hurry.
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 09:46:10AM +0200, RonnyPfannschmidt wrote:
> > i like the Idea i`m def +1 on adding this and seeing how it plays out,
>
> Where would the money go?
>
> > The subscription revenue will be distributed based on the amount of
> > time users spend reading documentation of the respective project
> > which I anticipate will correspond well with actual use. So if a
> > user spends 10% of their time reading the Pytest documentation, you
> > get 10% of the subscription revenue.
>
> I'm also not sure if this works out. I use pytest a lot, but I rarely
> look at its documentation. At the same time, I might spend a lot of time
> looking at documentation of something I just want to try out but never
> use again.
>
> Florian
>
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Re: [pytest-dev] Code of conduct for pytest organisation on GitHub

[RonnyPfannschmidt]

Hi all,


i'd like to note that the C4 process has a general bad actor handling
mechanism as well.

i vaguely recall there have been various instances to bully projects
into stuff like the contributors covenant,
so personally i`m against conduct template that are associated with
zealots pushing for them aggressively.

i will try to substantiate this claim/memory with actual data later
today. in case i can*t follow up today please consider it without merit
until a demonstration is provided.

-- Ronny


Am 31.07.2018 um 14:12 schrieb Dave Hunt:
> https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html looks
> like a good place to start.
>
>> On 31 Jul 2018, at 13:00, Bruno Oliveira > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:54 AM Dave Hunt > > wrote:
>>
>> I’d like to add a code of conduct for my pytest plugins, and as
>> they’re mostly under the pytest organisation on GitHub I thought
>> it would make sense to use the same as the pytest project. I was
>> surprised to find that the pytest project does not currently have
>> a code of conduct according
>> to https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/community. Is there one
>> documented elsewhere? If not, which should we adopt?
>>
>>
>> I'm a little surprised myself that we don't have one yet. I agree we
>> should adopt one. Do you have a suggestion?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bruno.
>
>
>
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Re: [pytest-dev] Code of conduct for pytest organisation on GitHub

[Bruno Oliveira]

Hi Dave,


On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:54 AM Dave Hunt  wrote:

> I’d like to add a code of conduct for my pytest plugins, and as they’re
> mostly under the pytest organisation on GitHub I thought it would make
> sense to use the same as the pytest project. I was surprised to find that
> the pytest project does not currently have a code of conduct according to
> https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/community. Is there one documented
> elsewhere? If not, which should we adopt?
>

I'm a little surprised myself that we don't have one yet. I agree we should
adopt one. Do you have a suggestion?

Cheers,
Bruno.
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[pytest-dev] Code of conduct for pytest organisation on GitHub

[Dave Hunt]

I’d like to add a code of conduct for my pytest plugins, and as they’re mostly 
under the pytest organisation on GitHub I thought it would make sense to use 
the same as the pytest project. I was surprised to find that the pytest project 
does not currently have a code of conduct according to 
https://github.com/pytest-dev/pytest/community 
. Is there one documented 
elsewhere? If not, which should we adopt?

Cheers,
Dave


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Re: [pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[Florian Bruhin]

Hi,

some random thoughts:

FWIW I'm -1 on this (mainly because we don't have a good way to recieve
and distribute money; and I doubt there is one at all), but currently a
bit in a hurry.

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 09:46:10AM +0200, RonnyPfannschmidt wrote:
> i like the Idea i`m def +1 on adding this and seeing how it plays out,

Where would the money go?

> The subscription revenue will be distributed based on the amount of
> time users spend reading documentation of the respective project
> which I anticipate will correspond well with actual use. So if a
> user spends 10% of their time reading the Pytest documentation, you
> get 10% of the subscription revenue.

I'm also not sure if this works out. I use pytest a lot, but I rarely
look at its documentation. At the same time, I might spend a lot of time
looking at documentation of something I just want to try out but never
use again.

Florian

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Re: [pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[RonnyPfannschmidt]

Hi Alex,

i like the Idea i`m def +1 on adding this and seeing how it plays out,

Just to play devils advocate, are there any plans to adjust the cut
should the financial situation ever allow it at scale?

I`m also wondering if connecting parties in need of direct/indirect work
on/with the project with freelancers/companies surrounding the projects
is on the horizon.

-- Ronny

Am 31.07.2018 um 08:14 schrieb Alex Georgie:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm Alex from SeedAndDew. I was chatting with Holger and Bruno about
> SeedAndDew and whether Pytest would like to participate and they
> mentioned bringing it to the dev mailing list to get your opinions.
>
> _What is it?_
>
> SeedAndDew is a common subscription platform that allows users to
> contribute to a number of open source projects with a single
> subscription. The idea here is that it's a lot easier to get people to
> contribute $10/month to every open source project they work with than
> it is to get them to contribute $5/month for a specific project. The
> subscription revenue will be distributed based on the amount of time
> users spend reading documentation of the respective project which I
> anticipate will correspond well with actual use. So if a user spends
> 10% of their time reading the Pytest documentation, you get 10% of the
> subscription revenue.
>
> _How it works_
>
> We provide you a script that you add to the Pytest site. That script
> makes a call to our site to create a 'drop' every 2 seconds a user is
> on your site. If the user is part of our network, we would have
> provided a cookie to them when they signed in which gets passed to us
> when that call is made. We authenticate using that cookie and assign
> that drop to them and you. If they are not part of the network there
> is no cookie, they won't be authenticated and the process ends there.
> We aggregate those drops at the end of the month to figure out the
> revenue distribution.
>
> The info we have is purely opt in since the user need to not only have
> an account with us but pay us every month. We haven't built this yet,
> but the intention is to keep that data for 3 months for auditing
> purposes and then delete it. We take a 30% cut of the subscription
> that includes payment processing costs which allows us to be
> sustainable, so we don't need to get creative with the data. The other
> feature needed for GDPR is the export of user data which is also in
> the pipeline.
>
> Our goal is to increase the pool of people who contribute to open
> source by removing the friction of having to manage subscriptions paid
> to specific projects and changing it as your stack and interests
> change. This would be a passive income source that doesn't require any
> further work outside of the initial integration.
>
> So far we have 10 projects including SQL Alchemy, RSpec, Bundler,
> Browsh and Parse. Does this seem like something you would be
> interested in?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex
>
> 
>
>
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[pytest-dev] Partnership possibility with Pytest

[Alex Georgie]

Hi everyone,

I'm Alex from SeedAndDew. I was chatting with Holger and Bruno about
SeedAndDew and whether Pytest would like to participate and they mentioned
bringing it to the dev mailing list to get your opinions.

*What is it?*

SeedAndDew is a common subscription platform that allows users to
contribute to a number of open source projects with a single subscription.
The idea here is that it's a lot easier to get people to contribute
$10/month to every open source project they work with than it is to get
them to contribute $5/month for a specific project. The subscription
revenue will be distributed based on the amount of time users spend reading
documentation of the respective project which I anticipate will correspond
well with actual use. So if a user spends 10% of their time reading the
Pytest documentation, you get 10% of the subscription revenue.

*How it works*

We provide you a script that you add to the Pytest site. That script makes
a call to our site to create a 'drop' every 2 seconds a user is on your
site. If the user is part of our network, we would have provided a cookie
to them when they signed in which gets passed to us when that call is made.
We authenticate using that cookie and assign that drop to them and you. If
they are not part of the network there is no cookie, they won't be
authenticated and the process ends there. We aggregate those drops at the
end of the month to figure out the revenue distribution.

The info we have is purely opt in since the user need to not only have an
account with us but pay us every month. We haven't built this yet, but the
intention is to keep that data for 3 months for auditing purposes and then
delete it. We take a 30% cut of the subscription that includes payment
processing costs which allows us to be sustainable, so we don't need to get
creative with the data. The other feature needed for GDPR is the export of
user data which is also in the pipeline.

Our goal is to increase the pool of people who contribute to open source by
removing the friction of having to manage subscriptions paid to specific
projects and changing it as your stack and interests change. This would be
a passive income source that doesn't require any further work outside of
the initial integration.

So far we have 10 projects including SQL Alchemy, RSpec, Bundler, Browsh
and Parse. Does this seem like something you would be interested in?

Thanks,

Alex



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