[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

James Addison  added the comment:

Thanks Senthil; please take your time.  This isn't urgent, and would likely 
benefit from further standardization of the URL query string and/or 
form-encoded data formats (outside the Python project) to achieve consensus.

A fully-considered answer at a later date would probably sit more comfortably 
with me than one that has any sense of time pressure.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Senthil Kumaran]

Senthil Kumaran  added the comment:

Hi James, I will give another look at it tonight or latest by Sunday PST ,
since I was involved in this and PRs. If we can make a decision within this
context, great, otherwise we can open it up to python-dev

On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 3:30 PM James Addison 
wrote:

>
> James Addison  added the comment:
>
> No problem, and thanks for the heads-up Tal!  I'll raise this as a topic
> on python-dev if it still seems worth pursuing, after collecting some more
> thoughts about it.
>
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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

James Addison  added the comment:

No problem, and thanks for the heads-up Tal!  I'll raise this as a topic on 
python-dev if it still seems worth pursuing, after collecting some more 
thoughts about it.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Tal Einat]

Tal Einat  added the comment:

Thanks for the PRs, James!

I've closed the PRs for now, to avoid having people spend time reviewing them 
while this issue is closed as "wontfix". That said, if further discussion 
changes that decision, the PRs could be reopened.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

James Addison  added the comment:

NB: There appears to be some relevant discussion in 
https://github.com/whatwg/url/issues/469

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

James Addison  added the comment:

The pair of pull requests below implement None-preserving urlencode and 
parse_qs* via a default-disabled flag 'standalone_keys'.

- https://bugs.python.org/pull_request19259
- https://bugs.python.org/pull_request19264

(they're also already linked with this issue, thanks to the neat GitHub/BPO 
integration)

A benefit of the proposed serialization changes is that developers can opt-in 
to a scheme in which "{'a': None}" and "{'a': ''}" do not collide to the same 
encoded representation.

Would it be possible to re-open this issue for discussion?

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

Change by James Addison :


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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

Change by James Addison :


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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[James Addison]

James Addison  added the comment:

Chiming in here to add that I'd appreciate the ability to render 'standalone' 
(i.e. no '=') query-string keys in order to distinguish between 
absence-of-value and empty-string situations.

The backwards-compatibility concerns in here are genuine, so perhaps this could 
be introduced as an argument to urlencode with a disabled default value, 
allowing developers to opt-in.

>> Unless someone can point to a "real" web server that does something 
>> different with "" than with "=", there is no reason to make a change 
>> to Python.

There's a popular nodejs library that makes this serialization distinction 
explicit: https://github.com/sindresorhus/query-string#falsy-values

I've developed a Python 3.7-based set of commits[1] to address this issue.  I 
haven't yet opened this as a pull request since I see that Python 3.7 is in 
maintenance/bugfix mode[2].

In case a new urlencode flag would fall under the category of feature, I'll aim 
to develop a subsequent set of commits against the master development branch 
soon.

[1] - https://github.com/jayaddison/cpython/compare/3.7..9555467

[2] - https://devguide.python.org/#status-of-python-branches

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

I see no reason for this issue to be open.  As suggested on the linked bug, the 
value should be passed as an empty string (which will produce, eg 
foo=a='1', which is the correct format for such a parameter.  Unless 
someone can point to a real web server that does something different with 
foo than with foo=, there is no reason to make a change to Python.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Piotr Dobrogost]

Piotr Dobrogost added the comment:

This problem came out in the bug Cannot make URL query string with a parameter 
without a value (https://github.com/kennethreitz/requests/issues/2651) raised 
in urllib3 project (which itself is being used by Requests library mentioned in 
this bug).

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

What is returning a field dictionary containing None instead of an empty string?

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

In this exact example it would be an empty string. It was a fake setup to 
illustrate a real problem.

This is the important part:

params = dict(screen_name=None,count=300)
url = https://api.twitter.com/1.1/friends/ids.json?; + urllib.urlencode(params)
print url  # 
https://api.twitter.com/1.1/friends/ids.json?screen_name=Nonecount=300;

screen_name=None is not the behavior you would want.

Another example is in webapp2's uri_for function which uses urlencode 
internally.
ref: 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7081250/webapp2-jinja2-how-can-i-get-uri-for-working-in-jinja2-views

If you try to use uri_for in your jinja2 template you must jump through hoops 
like:

script
{% if screen_name %}
   var url = '{{ uri_for('something', screen_name=screen_name) }}';
{% else %}
   var url = '{{ uri_for('something') }}';
{% endif %}
/script

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

None of those problems exist if you correctly use the empty string to indicate 
an empty string value instead of trying to use None.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

If this was a function to encode a dict into something then I would see your 
point and agree. urlencode is specifically designed to work within the domain 
or URIs. In this domain, it is acceptable to have an empty value for a key in a 
query string. None is a representation of nothing, empty, null, the absence of 
a value. Therefore you would expect a function in the domain of URIs to 
construct a valid URI component when you specifically tell it to use None. 
Valid is up to you, either ignore the key-value pair completely, or use key[=] 
to represent the empty value.

Take Requests as an example that gets it right:

 import requests
 requests.get('http://www.google.com/', params={'key': None}).url
u'http://www.google.com/'
 requests.get('http://www.google.com/', params={'key': ''}).url
u'http://www.google.com/?key='

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

No, the domain of URIs does not have *any* concept of a null value.  It only 
has the concept of a string being empty or not empty (or the key not existing 
at all...ie: it doesn't exist in your params dict).

You are trying to map a Python concept (the singleton object None, which is 
used for a variety of purposes) into a domain that does not have an equivalent 
concept.

That said, following the requests model of omitting the key if the value is 
None is something we could consider as a convenience enhancement.  But we would 
again run into Python's strict backward compatibility policy.  I could imagine 
some programmer building an internal web service that turns the string 'None' 
back into a Python None value.  The fact that it would have to be an internal 
thing would mean we'd never hear about it...until we broke it :)

Whether or not adding this feature would require a new keyword argument to 
urlencode is a judgment call.  It might be an acceptable change in a feature 
release.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

I'm sorry to reopen this but after it biting me quite a few times more I still 
cannot think of a valid use-case for this behavior that someone would be 
depending on 'None' being passed.

I think your backwards compatibility concerns are artificial. Can anyone 
describe a use-case that depended on arg=None being passed in a query string?

I am sure that anyone who is encountering this behavior is treating the string 
'None' as None when encountered in a request query string.

Consider this example usage. A website presents a user with a form to search 
their twitter followers using the twitter api 
https://api.twitter.com/1.1/friends/ids.json

Form fields optional
screen_name: []
(assume more fields)

Handler gets the form post and builds the dict for the search query string.

# User entered nothing so params = {'screen_name': None, ..more fields}
params = {k: self.request.get(k, None) for k in self.request.GET}

url = https://api.twitter.com/1.1/friends/ids.json?; + urllib.urlencode(params)

print url
https://api.twitter.com/1.1/friends/ids.json?screen_name=None;

This would cause the twitter search api to look for your friends with None in 
their screen name. Not exactly what you'd expect right?

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

While the RFC makes no mention of empty values either way, it has become 
standard practice to either omit the key-value completely or pass a key 
(optional = sign) by itself in these situations so I would consider that as 
standard behavior.

While I stand by my position that the function is broken in regards to None, I 
do not have the clout to make this change without support from the community so 
I will leave it at that.

Whether or not adding this feature would require a new keyword argument to 
urlencode is a judgment call.
It might be an acceptable change in a feature release.
I do believe that it should be changed in a future release and a new keyword 
argument would suffice except for when the abstraction level is high enough to 
shield you from being able to specify this new argument.

I could imagine some programmer building an internal web service that 
turns the string 'None' back into a Python None value.  The fact that it 
would have to be an internal thing would mean we'd never hear about 
it...until we broke it :)
I was talking to someone about the same thing during lunch today. This whole 
bug report came about because I was finding 'None' string values in our app 
engine datastore because of optional parameters with None values being encoded 
as 'None'.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

No, Senthil is correct.

My original liking for this idea came from my mistaken impression that a value 
without an '=' was different from a value with an '='.  But clearly the 
practice in the industry (the de facto standard) is that they are the same, and 
indicate that the value of the parameter is the empty string.

So, urls do *not* have any way of representing a null value (as differentiated 
from an empty string).  All url values are strings.  This means that the 
correct value to use for a python value is always its string representation, 
which in the case of None is None, just as the correct representation of a 
Python boolean value is True or False (since http also does not have any 
specifically boolean type, only string values).

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

I agree with True == 'True' and False == 'False' but None should be empty since 
it represents the absence of a value akin to null, Nil, etc in other languages. 
Ultimately it is not my decision make so I can only agree to disagree.

Thanks for having this discussion with me. So far the python community has been 
a pleasant change from what I am used to!

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

If we were making this decision de novo, we might decide it that way.  However, 
the current behavior has been in place for a long time, so backward 
compatibility concerns raise the bar high enough that the costs of the change 
outweigh any benefits, even if we got general agreement that there was a 
benefit :)

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

Hi Senthil,
You can open the html file with a browser and inspect the data posting to 
itself without a web server running. That is how I tested.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

I still believe that since None represents the absence of a value it should not 
be urlencoded as the string 'None'. I am not sure what they best way to url 
encode it is, but I know that 'None' is not it.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Senthil Kumaran]

Senthil Kumaran added the comment:

Hi Joshua, I did not setup a php server to test the html form that you 
uploaded. We cannot test this in browsers because HTML does not have None as 
values, it is simple empty strings and that is correct. 
I think that the cost of making this change is higher than the value that it 
will give and I am inclined to close this bug report as wont fix. If you 
strongly disagree, please feel free to reopen it (and can possibly discuss at 
python-dev). Thank you!

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Claudiu.Popa]

Claudiu.Popa added the comment:

No problem, David, working on these patches is just an occasion for me to learn 
more and be useful at the same time.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

I know that languages like php will treat ?josh= the same as ?josh

Using the attached test form in Google Chrome, you will see the data passed as 
josh= when empty in both GET and POST requests. This is probably the way to go, 
key=str(value) if value is not None else ''

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Claudiu.Popa]

Claudiu.Popa added the comment:

Hello. I attached a simple patch for the urlencode case. I'll try to make one 
for parse_qs(l) as well.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Claudiu.Popa]

Claudiu.Popa added the comment:

Added patch for parse_qsl as well.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Senthil Kumaran]

Senthil Kumaran added the comment:

The patch looks good, but I have doubt in the claim that, this new behavior is 
actually a right thing to do.

RDM wrote:

Now, that said, it seems to me that while it is not (apparently) RFC compliant, 
query strings do have a natural way to support null values: a name without a 
value.  It would therefore be convenient if urlencode supported null values by 
turning something like {'josh': None, 'fred': 'abc'} into:

joshfred=abc


It is correctly recognized that it is not RFC Compliant. A reference to this 
behavior exhibited by the software may be helpful. The 
`application/x-www-form-urlencoded` type always looks for key=value kind of 
query string only. And changes submitted by patch will break for folks who 
think a=None is actually what they expected when the sent {a:None}.

I think, some present instances where this behavior is exhibited will be good 
to note.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

Thank you for working on the patches, Claudiu, but...

The backward compatibility concern is valid.

Furthermore, I did a bunch of googling looking for examples.  I did not turn up 
any examples of APIs that were documented to use parameters without '='...all 
the cases I looked at that mentioned parameter without a value specified the 
xxx= form.

Given that, and thinking about it further, it appears to me that a parameter 
with no '=' should be treated the same as one that has an '=' but no 
value...that is, the same as using an empty string.  It would be *logical* for 
it to be a nul value, but in fact the http RFCs have no concept of a nul 
value, so it is in fact out of place.  

Sorry to have sent people down the wrong path here.

So I'm back to saying that one should not use None in an application to 
represent no value for a query parameter, but rather the empty string.  The url 
parsing code should turn a parameter without an '=' into an empty string, I 
think, but again there are backward compatibility concerns there.  There may be 
code that unintentionally depends on them being discarded.

So, I *think* we could, and should, make them not ignored, but turned into 
empty strings, in 3.4, following the first part in Postel's law (be generous 
in what you accept).  But following the second half of Postel's law (be 
strict in what you generate) we really shouldn't generate parameters without 
even an '=', given that they are not RFC compliant.

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Ezio Melotti]

Changes by Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com:


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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

New submission from Joshua Johnston:

This is strange behavior. When you encode nulls in other languages you don't 
get the string 'null' you usually get an empy string. Shouldn't str(None) == ''?

If not str(None) == 'None' and the string representation of a None value should 
not match a known string

 from urllib import urlencode
 urlencode({'josh': None})
'josh=None'

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priority: normal
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title: urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'
type: behavior
versions: Python 2.7

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Antoine Pitrou]

Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr:


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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[R. David Murray]

R. David Murray added the comment:

In Python the str of a None value is indeed 'None', just as the str of a True 
value is 'True'.  Unless the protocol to which you are encoding supports null 
values, you shouldn't be using None values in the input to the serialization.  
If you want an empty string in the output, use an empty string in the input.

Now, that said, it seems to me that while it is not (apparently) RFC compliant, 
query strings do have a natural way to support null values: a name without a 
value.  It would therefore be convenient if urlencode supported null values by 
turning something like {'josh': None, 'fred': 'abc'} into:

joshfred=abc

That is what I would expect it to do, so I'd be in favor of that enhancement.

I note that parse_qs and parse_qsl don't handle this case either, which 
surprises me since I think such value-less query string parameters are fairly 
common.

--
nosy: +r.david.murray
stage:  - needs patch
type: behavior - enhancement
versions: +Python 3.4 -Python 2.7

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[issue18857] urlencode of a None value uses the string 'None'

[Joshua Johnston]

Joshua Johnston added the comment:

Hi David,

That is what I would expect it to do as well. I'm relatively new to Python but 
this is causing all kinds of problems with oauth signing using ims_lti_py as 
well as my own code using urlencode.

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