[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

PR 25678 merged on top of the sidebar patch results in using space indents with 
the sidebar.  An additional patch is needed to have the mode with '>>>' on a 
line by itself instead of having a sidebar.

The shell prompt_last_line attribute is now obsolete (it is always '') and 
should be removed after uses, such as "if self.prompt_last_line" headers and 
the following code, are removed.

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Tal Einat]

Tal Einat  added the comment:

> For doctests, one wants code with '>>> ' and '... ' prompts and unmarked 
> output.

Note that with the latest PR, the shell sidebar now adds a "Copy with prompts" 
context-menu option which does precisely this.

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:


New changeset 8ec2f0dc0cd096b7a851b1a41e458daa23bf1ffc by Terry Jan Reedy in 
branch 'master':
bpo-37892: Use space indents in IDLE Shell (GH-25678)
https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/8ec2f0dc0cd096b7a851b1a41e458daa23bf1ffc


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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

I had a similar reaction, "weird", when I tried the isolated prompt a year or 
whatever ago.  I don't remember if I also changed the indent for that.  But 
when testing this patch, with space indents, a longer time, most of the weird 
feeling dissipated and I realized that I might possibly prefer this, at least 
sometimes.

Another reason I proposed the isolated prompt as the *current* default is that 
some (many?) people like to save the shell as a record of their session.  With 
prompts in the sidebar, saving the shell *currently* results in a text record 
with no prompts. (And, of course, no highlighting.)  I can read it, but I 
expect that most people would prefer isolated prompts to no prompts

I discussed the need for shell saving options both above and in msg392163, 
posted to #37904 a few hours ago.  I do not currently expect anything before 
next Monday.  If a followup PR, zipping the sidebar with text when saving, were 
prepared before then, I would be more favorable to making sidebar the current 
default.

I plan to ask for more opinions on idle-dev and python-list later today.

--
stage: patch review -> needs patch
versions:  -Python 3.9

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[E. Paine]

E. Paine  added the comment:

Personally, I find the change quite weird and will take some getting used to. I 
hope people read the help at the top of the shell, but if not I can imagine 
numerous bug reports about the change. I have not used any shell that has the 
prompt above where you type, so while I think this should be an option for the 
user, I propose the sidebar is the default for familiarity (instead of the 
other way around).

--
nosy: +epaine
versions: +Python 3.10, Python 3.11 -Python 3.7, Python 3.8

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

Change by Terry J. Reedy :


--
keywords: +patch
pull_requests: +24369
stage: needs patch -> patch review
pull_request: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/25678

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

One of the related changes is to add multiple options for saving the shell 
history.  For editing, one wants code without prompts and output either 
omitting or commented out.  For doctests, one wants code with '>>> ' and '... ' 
prompts and unmarked output.

A second would be to *not* print SyntaxError and a new prompt, but to otherwise 
indicate 'error' and put the cursor after the already highlighted error, as 
done in the editor.

A third would being able to submit multiline statements for execution with with 
F5 instead of having to go to the end of the last line and enter a blank line.  
This would be especially useful after correcting a syntax error or other typo.

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

Terry J. Reedy  added the comment:

Adding a Shell sidebar is #37903.

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[issue37892] IDLE Shell: isolate user code input

[Terry J. Reedy]

New submission from Terry J. Reedy :

The main operational difference between the standard Python REPL and IDLE's 
Shell is that the latter operates with complete Python statements rather than 
physical lines.  Shell keeps the '>>>' prompt, but with the expanded meaning of 
"Enter a complete Python statement" rather than just "Enter the first line of a 
Python statement".  It omits the consequently superfluous continuation prompts, 
which would mostly be a nuisance if left.

Currently, the prompt precedes and indents the first line of code.  This causes 
multiple problems.  Internally, first lines have to be treated differently from 
the rest.  This has lead to bugs, mostly but not all fixed.  Externally, 
indentation depends on the prompt and does not look right or work right, 
compared to the same code in a proper editor.  And it lead to the use of Tab 
for indents.

The use of Tab for Shell indents was recognized as a problem by 2005.  #1196946 
proposed using the same space indents as in the editor, resulting, for 
instance, in
>>> if a:
if b:
print(a+b)
KBK rejected this with "Doesn't really solve the problem."

In 2010, #7676 suggested 4 space indents again and added 2 variations:  8 space 
indents, and 8 followed by 4, etc. OP Cherniavsky Beni noted that Tab indents 
are "inconsistent with PEP 8; what's worse, it's makes copy-paste code between 
the shell and editor windows confusing and dangerous!"  Raymond Hettinger later 
added that tabs are a "major PITA" and "a continual source of frustration for 
students".

Starting with msg151418 in 1212, my response was much the same as KBK's.  To 
me, the underlying problem is having the prompt physically indent the first 
physical line relative to the following lines.  I consider this IDLE's single 
biggest design wart.  I proposed then 3 possible solutions to avoid the first 
line non-significant indent.  They are, with current comments, ...

1. Prompt on a line by itself (vertical separation).

This is easy, and allows for an expanded active prompt, such as
  >>> Enter a complete Python statement on the lines below.
This says exactly what the user should do and should help avoid confusion with 
a command-line prompt.  ("I entered 'cd path' and got 'SyntaxError'".)

Once a statement is entered, the instruction is obsolete. Only '>>>' is needed, 
to identify input from output. I think putting '>>>' above past input works 
less well than for current input.  I will come back to this proposal below, 
after 3.

2. No input prompt; instead mark output (with #, for instance).

Possible, but confronting beginners with no prompt would likely leave them 
wondering what to do.  But this is a possible savefile format, one that could 
be run or edited.  (A savefile with only the code would do the same.)

3. Prompt in a margin, as with line numbers (horizontal separation).

In 1214, I realized that the 'margin' should be implemented as a separate 
sidebar widget, which was initially being developed for editor line numbers.  
We now have that, and a shell sidebar should be fairly easy.  I will open a 
separate issue with a fairly specific design.  Basically, the first lines of 
input, stderr output, and stdout output would be flagged with, for instance, 
'>>>', 'err', and 'out'.  This should be done before the additional proposal 
below. 


IDLE's Shell should isolate user input not only from prompts.  Debug on/off 
messages, warnings, and delayed program output can also interfere.  I think 
that IDLE's Shell should consist of an input and output history area with 
sidebar, fixed prompt and separator line such as in 1. above, and active input 
area.

The history area, as now, would be read-only except when responding to input() 
in the running code.  The change is that it would receive all messages from 
IDLE and asynchronous program output.  The input area would be a specialized 
editor area.  When input code is run, it would be copied above the separator 
prompt with '>>>' added to the sidebar, opposite the first line.

I believe that the easiest implementation would be to use a label for the fixed 
prompt line and a specialized editor that runs statements as entered.  The 
editing and smart indents would be the same as in a regular editor.  Once this 
is done, we could discuss refinements such as allowing pasting of multiple 
statements.

--
assignee: terry.reedy
components: IDLE
messages: 35
nosy: cheryl.sabella, rhettinger, taleinat, terry.reedy
priority: normal
severity: normal
stage: needs patch
status: open
title: IDLE Shell: isolate user code input
type: behavior
versions: Python 3.7, Python 3.8, Python 3.9

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