[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

On 23.06.2021 19:17, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jun 23, 2021, at 09:46, Marc-Andre Lemburg  wrote:
>>
>> Since it's rather likely that we'll always find someone who still
>> uses a module, I think we should find a better strategy on how to
>> deal with such removals, e.g. create a separate attic repo where
>> participation is easier than for CPython, publish the modules
>> in this repo under a python-attic package, and move all deprecated
>> code there.
> 
> That’s basically what PEP 594 suggests, and I think that’s a good approach 
> while we’re working out the details and process for removing dead batteries.

Ah, found that section at the very bottom of the PEP now. Thanks.

It may be better to move this all the way up, since I'm pretty sure
that it'll make people feel better.

The attic repo would need to go unter the Python Github account
though to make it more official and also make sure the licensing
aspect it dealt with properly (the PSF would have to officially
distribute the package to be able to use the CLA relicensing).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Jun 24 2021)
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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 23, 2021, at 09:46, Marc-Andre Lemburg  wrote:
> 
> Since it's rather likely that we'll always find someone who still
> uses a module, I think we should find a better strategy on how to
> deal with such removals, e.g. create a separate attic repo where
> participation is easier than for CPython, publish the modules
> in this repo under a python-attic package, and move all deprecated
> code there.

That’s basically what PEP 594 suggests, and I think that’s a good approach 
while we’re working out the details and process for removing dead batteries.

-Barry



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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Marc-Andre Lemburg]

FWIW: PEP 594 doesn't seem to have been updated with all the
discussions we had around it, e.g. the nntplib is still marked
for removal, even though the only reason is related to servers
used in the test suite sometimes causing delays, which I will
be fixing with Ee by setting up our own test server.

Since it's rather likely that we'll always find someone who still
uses a module, I think we should find a better strategy on how to
deal with such removals, e.g. create a separate attic repo where
participation is easier than for CPython, publish the modules
in this repo under a python-attic package, and move all deprecated
code there.

On 23.06.2021 15:16, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> 
> Also, it seems this discussion should happen on python-dev so that more people
> are aware of it.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
> 
> 
> Le 23/06/2021 à 14:58, Joannah Nanjekye a écrit :
>> Am not against removing dead batteries but Am still very skeptical and
>> disturbed about how the
>> decision to remove modules is made.i.e what goes and what remains?
>>
>> For example, in the discussion section of PEP 594 , individuals kept asking
>> for some modules to remain and IIUC,
>> it's in the decision of the PEP to keep those modules on those grounds that
>> some people requested for those modules to remain.
>>
>> For example, I now wonder how Andrew is different from those people?
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 5:06 AM Victor Stinner > > wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Andrew,
>>
>>     If someone ones smtpd, I would suggest to copy it from Python 3.10
>>     (with asyncore and asynchat) and continue the maintenance outside the
>>     CPython Git repository.
>>
>>     Create a project on PyPI if you expect contributions.
>>
>>     Victor
>>
>>     On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 9:13 AM Andrew McNamara
>>     mailto:andr...@object-craft.com.au>>
>>     wrote:
>>  >
>>  > >I would hope we'd remove it. It's a toy implementation,
>>     unmaintained,
>>  > >probably doesn't support a lot of newer protocol features, and
>>     is probably
>>  > >full of bugs. Hopefully nobody uses it!
>>  >
>>  > I use it and it works well for my specific use case - a Postfix spam
>>  > filter. During incoming SMTP transactions, I have Postfix
>>     configured to
>>  > pass the received message to my daemon via SMTP
>>     (smtpd_proxy_filter). My
>>  > daemon pronounces judgement, allowing Postfix to potentially
>>     reject the
>>  > message while the sender is still connected (so no bounce
>>     backscatter). My
>>  > daemon only receives one connection at a time, and only well
>>     formed SMTP
>>  > from postfix, so the smtpd module works well - no need for a 3rd
>>     party
>>  > module or the hassle of async.
>>  >
>>  > --
>>  > Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft
>>  > http://www.object-craft.com.au/ 
>>  > ___
>>  > python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org
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>>  > To unsubscribe send an email to
>>     python-committers-le...@python.org
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>>  >
>>     https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
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>>  > Message archived at
>>    
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/QA2OVVFX564H5EBARUKODUPMYHTJAMCO/
>>
>>    
>> 
>>
>>  > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>     
>>
>>
>>
>>     --     Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my
>> death.
>>     ___
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>>
>>    
>> 
>>
>>     Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>     
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> //Best,
>> Joannah Nanjekye
>> /"You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can write, even
>> more when you can teach, but certain when you can program."
>> Alan J. Perlis/
>>
>> 

[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Petr Viktorin]

On 23. 06. 21 15:21, Irit Katriel via python-committers wrote:



On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 1:58 PM Joannah Nanjekye 
mailto:nanjekyejoan...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Am not against removing dead batteries but Am still very skeptical
and disturbed about how the
decision to remove modules is made.i.e what goes and what remains?

For example, in the discussion section of PEP 594 , individuals kept
asking for some modules to remain and IIUC,
it's in the decision of the PEP to keep those modules on those
grounds that some people requested for those modules to remain.

For example, I now wonder how Andrew is different from those people?


asynchat and asyncore are deprecated since 3.6. Doesn't this mean that 
the decision to remove them was already taken?


"Deprecation" was much more vague in 3.6 than it is now.
I don't think the current process from [PEP-387] was followed with these 
modules -- I don't see any deprecation warnings being raised.



[PEP-387]: 
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0387/#making-incompatible-changes

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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Irit Katriel via python-committers]

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 1:58 PM Joannah Nanjekye 
wrote:

> Am not against removing dead batteries but Am still very skeptical and
> disturbed about how the
> decision to remove modules is made.i.e what goes and what remains?
>
> For example, in the discussion section of PEP 594 , individuals kept
> asking for some modules to remain and IIUC,
> it's in the decision of the PEP to keep those modules on those grounds
> that some people requested for those modules to remain.
>
> For example, I now wonder how Andrew is different from those people?
>

asynchat and asyncore are deprecated since 3.6. Doesn't this mean that the
decision to remove them was already taken?
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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Antoine Pitrou]

Also, it seems this discussion should happen on python-dev so that more 
people are aware of it.


Regards

Antoine.


Le 23/06/2021 à 14:58, Joannah Nanjekye a écrit :
Am not against removing dead batteries but Am still very skeptical and 
disturbed about how the

decision to remove modules is made.i.e what goes and what remains?

For example, in the discussion section of PEP 594 , individuals kept 
asking for some modules to remain and IIUC,
it's in the decision of the PEP to keep those modules on those grounds 
that some people requested for those modules to remain.


For example, I now wonder how Andrew is different from those people?

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 5:06 AM Victor Stinner > wrote:


Hi Andrew,

If someone ones smtpd, I would suggest to copy it from Python 3.10
(with asyncore and asynchat) and continue the maintenance outside the
CPython Git repository.

Create a project on PyPI if you expect contributions.

Victor

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 9:13 AM Andrew McNamara
mailto:andr...@object-craft.com.au>>
wrote:
 >
 > >I would hope we'd remove it. It's a toy implementation,
unmaintained,
 > >probably doesn't support a lot of newer protocol features, and
is probably
 > >full of bugs. Hopefully nobody uses it!
 >
 > I use it and it works well for my specific use case - a Postfix spam
 > filter. During incoming SMTP transactions, I have Postfix
configured to
 > pass the received message to my daemon via SMTP
(smtpd_proxy_filter). My
 > daemon pronounces judgement, allowing Postfix to potentially
reject the
 > message while the sender is still connected (so no bounce
backscatter). My
 > daemon only receives one connection at a time, and only well
formed SMTP
 > from postfix, so the smtpd module works well - no need for a 3rd
party
 > module or the hassle of async.
 >
 > --
 > Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft
 > http://www.object-craft.com.au/ 
 > ___
 > python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org

 > To unsubscribe send an email to
python-committers-le...@python.org

 >
https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/

 > Message archived at

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/QA2OVVFX564H5EBARUKODUPMYHTJAMCO/


 > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/




-- 
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--
//Best,
Joannah Nanjekye
/"You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can write, 
even more when you can teach, but certain when you can program."

Alan J. Perlis/

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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Joannah Nanjekye]

Am not against removing dead batteries but Am still very skeptical and
disturbed about how the
decision to remove modules is made.i.e what goes and what remains?

For example, in the discussion section of PEP 594 , individuals kept asking
for some modules to remain and IIUC,
it's in the decision of the PEP to keep those modules on those grounds that
some people requested for those modules to remain.

For example, I now wonder how Andrew is different from those people?

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 5:06 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> If someone ones smtpd, I would suggest to copy it from Python 3.10
> (with asyncore and asynchat) and continue the maintenance outside the
> CPython Git repository.
>
> Create a project on PyPI if you expect contributions.
>
> Victor
>
> On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 9:13 AM Andrew McNamara
>  wrote:
> >
> > >I would hope we'd remove it. It's a toy implementation, unmaintained,
> > >probably doesn't support a lot of newer protocol features, and is
> probably
> > >full of bugs. Hopefully nobody uses it!
> >
> > I use it and it works well for my specific use case - a Postfix spam
> > filter. During incoming SMTP transactions, I have Postfix configured to
> > pass the received message to my daemon via SMTP (smtpd_proxy_filter). My
> > daemon pronounces judgement, allowing Postfix to potentially reject the
> > message while the sender is still connected (so no bounce backscatter).
> My
> > daemon only receives one connection at a time, and only well formed SMTP
> > from postfix, so the smtpd module works well - no need for a 3rd party
> > module or the hassle of async.
> >
> > --
> > Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft
> > http://www.object-craft.com.au/
> > ___
> > python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-le...@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/
> > Message archived at
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/QA2OVVFX564H5EBARUKODUPMYHTJAMCO/
> > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>
>
>
> --
> Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.
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> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>


-- 
Best,
Joannah Nanjekye

*"You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can write, even
more when you can teach, but certain when you can program." Alan J. Perlis*
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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Irit Katriel via python-committers]

I've created https://bugs.python.org/issue44498, so we can continue the
discussion there.

Once we remove the libraries, we could create a list of all open issues,
put this list in another issue, link to it from what's new and then close
all issues (including the one with the list). This way the known bugs will
not be lost in case someone wants to maintain the code outside the stdlib.


On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 9:14 AM Victor Stinner  wrote:

> Hi Irit,
>
> Since it's documented as deprecated, asyncore and asynchat are
> deprecated as well since Python 3.6 (smtpd uses asynchat), I suggest
> to remove these 3 modules right now. I would prefer to make such
> incompatible change early in the development cycle, to give more time
> to users to adapt their projects.
>
> We should explain to users how to handle this incompatible change in
> What's New in Python 3.11. IMO suggesting to copy the required modules
> into their project is an acceptable trade-off.
>
> Victor
>
>
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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Victor Stinner]

Hi Irit,

Since it's documented as deprecated, asyncore and asynchat are
deprecated as well since Python 3.6 (smtpd uses asynchat), I suggest
to remove these 3 modules right now. I would prefer to make such
incompatible change early in the development cycle, to give more time
to users to adapt their projects.

We should explain to users how to handle this incompatible change in
What's New in Python 3.11. IMO suggesting to copy the required modules
into their project is an acceptable trade-off.

Victor

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:51 AM Irit Katriel via python-committers
 wrote:
>
> The documentation for smtpd (https://docs.python.org/3/library/smtpd.html) 
> states that " smtpd should be considered deprecated" and recommends  aiosmtpd.
>
> Are we planning to remove it from the stdlib? Note that at the moment the 
> smtpd module doesn't emit deprecation warnings, and aiosmtpd is not part of 
> the stdlib.
>
> This came up on https://bugs.python.org/issue28533, where we were hoping to 
> be able to move the (properly) deprecated asyncore and asynhat to 
> test.support (because there are still a few tests that use them). It seems 
> that smtpd is that last blocker for that.
>
>
>
>
>
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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Victor Stinner]

Hi Andrew,

If someone ones smtpd, I would suggest to copy it from Python 3.10
(with asyncore and asynchat) and continue the maintenance outside the
CPython Git repository.

Create a project on PyPI if you expect contributions.

Victor

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 9:13 AM Andrew McNamara
 wrote:
>
> >I would hope we'd remove it. It's a toy implementation, unmaintained,
> >probably doesn't support a lot of newer protocol features, and is probably
> >full of bugs. Hopefully nobody uses it!
>
> I use it and it works well for my specific use case - a Postfix spam
> filter. During incoming SMTP transactions, I have Postfix configured to
> pass the received message to my daemon via SMTP (smtpd_proxy_filter). My
> daemon pronounces judgement, allowing Postfix to potentially reject the
> message while the sender is still connected (so no bounce backscatter). My
> daemon only receives one connection at a time, and only well formed SMTP
> from postfix, so the smtpd module works well - no need for a 3rd party
> module or the hassle of async.
>
> --
> Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft
> http://www.object-craft.com.au/
> ___
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> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/



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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Andrew McNamara]

>I would hope we'd remove it. It's a toy implementation, unmaintained,
>probably doesn't support a lot of newer protocol features, and is probably
>full of bugs. Hopefully nobody uses it!

I use it and it works well for my specific use case - a Postfix spam
filter. During incoming SMTP transactions, I have Postfix configured to
pass the received message to my daemon via SMTP (smtpd_proxy_filter). My
daemon pronounces judgement, allowing Postfix to potentially reject the
message while the sender is still connected (so no bounce backscatter). My
daemon only receives one connection at a time, and only well formed SMTP
from postfix, so the smtpd module works well - no need for a 3rd party
module or the hassle of async.

-- 
Andrew McNamara, Senior Developer, Object Craft
http://www.object-craft.com.au/
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[python-committers] Re: status of smtpd

[Guido van Rossum]

I would hope we’d remove it. It’s a toy implementation, unmaintained,
probably doesn’t support a lot of newer protocol features, and is probably
full of bugs. Hopefully nobody uses it!

On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 17:51 Irit Katriel via python-committers <
python-committers@python.org> wrote:

> The documentation for smtpd (https://docs.python.org/3/library/smtpd.html)
> states that " smtpd
>  should be
> considered deprecated" and recommends  aiosmtpd
> .
>
> Are we planning to remove it from the stdlib? Note that at the moment the
> smtpd module doesn't emit deprecation warnings, and aiosmtpd is not part of
> the stdlib.
>
> This came up on https://bugs.python.org/issue28533, where we were hoping
> to be able to move the (properly) deprecated asyncore and asynhat to
> test.support (because there are still a few tests that use them). It seems
> that smtpd is that last blocker for that.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
-- 
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