[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na wrote: > > Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC culture. > And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. > That period coincides with the growth of GitHub. > > So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. > Here the list below is my consideration. [...] Those are all good points. I'll add one more: * Does it have a good web-client experience? Not everyone wants to run an additional client, so being able to get the full client experience in a browser tab is important. In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social). Paul ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/452YY7GKRWVZGQE7IJULFHBQNSJFFTQX/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote: > So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of this conversation. Thanks! ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/RFNGYF27KMK6QQT7DD66JIOPJ4K4ANCD/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
> * Does it have a good web-client experience MS teams look like provide the web client. > In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd > prefer it to be a little more "social". I agree that we need to be more social. I share my personal news with Victor and it would be great if I can share my personal news with other core devs :) I think that we can catch both of them if we choose any tools I suggested. For example, we can create a channel for that purpose, #freetalk, #personal_news, etc.. 2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 5:20, Paul Moore 님이 작성: > On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 03:14, Dong-hee Na wrote: > > > > Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC > culture. > > And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. > > That period coincides with the growth of GitHub. > > > > So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. > > Here the list below is my consideration. > [...] > > Those are all good points. I'll add one more: > > * Does it have a good web-client experience? Not everyone wants to run > an additional client, so being able to get the full client experience > in a browser tab is important. > > In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd > prefer it to be a little more "social". We have plenty of > "work-related" communication channels, but IMO we don't really have > anywhere that's the online equivalent of the workplace "hanging out > around the coffee machine" interactions (which are often very > productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely social). > > Paul > ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/HFA5ULLS3WQDXW7CYWOIKG7GOIZMR3WJ/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit : On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote: So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of this conversation. You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ». In other words, I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument. Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/G2YRB5OAUHVJ6ITAPJE76X76XO2AHFOK/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
> You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project based on Python. But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX. I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad but it's the issue of how people feel familiar. This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers. (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..) You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs worldwide. The list of tools that I suggested is based on my personal observation which is normally used in tech companies. If people feel familiar and such things can address people's productivity I think that that's a good reason to choose. Regards, Dong-hee 2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 11:16, Antoine Pitrou 님이 작성: > > Le 15/05/2021 à 13:23, Senthil Kumaran a écrit : > > On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 11:13:48AM +0900, Dong-hee Na wrote: > >> So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. > > > > I agree with everything you've mentioned, Dong-hee. Need for good > > tool/system that addressed our evolving needs was one of the driver of > > this conversation. > > You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a > very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many > integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our > evolving needs ». In other words, I see lots of vague complaining and > no concrete argument. > > Regards > > Antoine. > ___ > python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/G2YRB5OAUHVJ6ITAPJE76X76XO2AHFOK/ > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/VU3XLU73WDCIOQQMSY6ZLMOGLI34SDWX/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit : > You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project based on Python. But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX. I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad but it's the issue of how people feel familiar. I don't think that's an important concern. We're talking about chat systems, which are all really approchable. If you're not familiar with Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way. On the scale of UI friendliness, all those systems are on the "easy" side (compare with the git CLI, which is on the "difficult" side). > This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers. > (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..) > You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs > worldwide. Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues / acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient. Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/ZKS7V5QJ4LM4TFMBXGAJR4ZXMK27BJUR/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
> If you're not familiar with > Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. > Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way. > Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues / > acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have > nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have > to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient. I think that we are on the same side about the considerations points but my observation bias is weighted on Slack, Discord, Teams. So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective. But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people not use after some period. And I think that it will show a higher survival probability when people feel comfortable than people feel not convenient. (Please note that convenience or comfort does not mean the systems perfectness) > In other words, those are network effects and have > nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. The reason why I mentioned the 'UI friendless' is that we are discussing the communication tools for programming projects. IMHO, the network effect of business communication tools world is that how many people use the tool for their work. if we can not choose the most people convenient tool of the programming world, but we can choose the second one as the alternative one. For example, as you said you use Slack for your work purpose if we choose Slack (if we decide to adopt new tools) at least you and I don't have to learn how to use Zulip fluently. And I think that it can also apply to other core devs and contributors who feel comfortable with Slack or Slack-like UI/UX. Regards, Dong-hee 2021년 5월 15일 (토) 오후 11:45, Antoine Pitrou 님이 작성: > > Le 15/05/2021 à 16:37, Dong-hee Na a écrit : > > > You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip > > > > I think that Zulip is a good service and AFAIK Zulip is the OSS project > > based on Python. > > But I think that such communication tools should be evaluated not only > > technology side but also on how people feel familiar with UI/UX. > > I don't want to evaluate the UI/UX accessibility of Zulip is good or bad > > but it's the issue of how people feel familiar. > > I don't think that's an important concern. We're talking about chat > systems, which are all really approchable. If you're not familiar with > Zulip, it will take little time before you can use it reasonably well. > Same for Slack, Discord, Gitter... and also Discourse, by the way. > > On the scale of UI friendliness, all those systems are on the "easy" > side (compare with the git CLI, which is on the "difficult" side). > > > This phenomenon also occurs in other common (non-business) messengers. > > (WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, etc..) > > You can observe that there is no single monopoly messenger which concurs > > worldwide. > > Mostly because people go where their friends / colleagues / > acquaintances are. In other words, those are network effects and have > nothing to do with the UI friendless of each system. For example, I have > to use Slack at work, yet I find Zulip far more convenient. > > Regards > > Antoine. > ___ > python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/ZKS7V5QJ4LM4TFMBXGAJR4ZXMK27BJUR/ > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/OWC6WQ2ZRE5D2E2P44VAVD4XJTQHJSAW/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
Paul Moore wrote: > In case it's not clear, I'd *like* a chat-style community, but I'd prefer it > to be a little more "social". We have plenty of "work-related" communication > channels, but IMO we don't really have anywhere that's the online equivalent > of the workplace "hanging out around the coffee machine" interactions (which > are often very productive work-related conversations, but can also be purely > social). +1 for a private social chat. Or a book club, or something. :) We already have enough forums for technical discussions... I count at least six(!) that I personally used for core dev work. Another would likely do more harm than good. Brandt ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/C7XUVYOK3ZV4Y5D6EKFDGJ3IHDKSSKJS/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit : So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective. But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people not use after some period. What "danger factor" are you talking about? Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/E3SX537LYTKCI5YWCKC222SWHNJ6FTMD/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a > very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, > is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ». - Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev) group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary. - We can still consider Zulip, if majority of us feel to participate in in again. We will see that in the poll. > I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument. Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too. ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/VQFJIBQSCK7EJMBX65SCOMFUHIOJHWSF/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 05:17:03PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Le 15/05/2021 à 17:11, Dong-hee Na a écrit : > > > > So I agree with you and my suggestion may not be an objective perspective. > > But I think that if we decide to choose to adopt new communication > > tools, I think that we can remove the danger factor which makes people > > not use after some period. > > What "danger factor" are you talking about? > My interpretation of that message, "falling out of use". The tool is less effective due to lack of usage after the initial trial period. ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/THYFLUCQDENLKWNZQAECAQTBTRL45RDB/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
Le 15/05/2021 à 17:57, Senthil Kumaran a écrit : On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote: You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ». - Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev) group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary. I'll ask the question again: what are the « evolving needs » that are not addressed by Zulip, but would be addressed by *another* chat system? ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/S4KH4YY34UKVH7IB2R36FLPR3OI4NWH6/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On 5/15/2021 11:57 AM, Senthil Kumaran wrote: On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 04:16:20PM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote: You still haven't explained why e.g. Zulip (which has a modern Web UI, a very well-thought threading mechanism, several clients, many integrations, is widely used, and is open source), doesn't « address our evolving needs ». - Zulip didn't take-off as well as we intended for python (core-dev) group. If it had, this discussion wouldn't have been necessary. I think Zulip didn't catch on because most core devs prefer communicating on mailing lists for technical issues. If the intent of this new core-dev chat is just a social "how are you doing" sort of thing, then I think Zulip (or most anything else) would work fine. Eric ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/SIXFJXPVCYN7TSBIPJH4VXMS7ZQ2QBR4/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
As a data point for where newer language communities have ended up, Rust is on Discord and Zulip. On Fri., May 14, 2021, 19:14 Dong-hee Na, wrote: > Believe it or not, there are people who are not familiar with the IRC > culture. > And those people are who enter the opensource culture after the 2010s. > That period coincides with the growth of GitHub. > > So I'm also a supporter of new communication tools. > Here the list below is my consideration. > > a) Are people familiar? > If the tools are widely used by the tech company, I'd like to give the > score. > Because if the people are not familiar, it loses accessibility and maybe > nobody use after some period. > > b) Does it has a thread feature? > I believe that most of the core devs need this feature since I observe > that we discuss some topics intensively for long periods of time. > > c) Does it has a secret channel? > > d) Can we get a sponsor from the provider or PSF for using the tools. > Because most of the tools have a subscription system and without that, we > can not use the advanced features. > For example, with free tier Slack, we lose old historical data. > > So here is final my preferred list of that consideration > >>> ["Slack", "Discord", "Teams"] > > But my personal recent experience with the Discord public server was not > that good. > Because I got a lot of personal talks invitation that is actually spam > or scam. > So I exit the channel after the sprint is ended even though I use Discord > personally. > If we choose Discord, I'd like to suggest creating a new server for PSF, > not the rendezvous with the existed server. > This is the same opinion with Slack if we have the possibility to meet > with the same issue. > > Regards, > Dong-hee > > > 2021년 5월 14일 (금) 오전 8:39, Senthil Kumaran 님이 작성: > >> Hello Core Dev, >> >> I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in >> some quick effervescent conversations. >> >> It is like a team chat, that is popular with remote work these days. >> We even seem to have used Zoom Chat yesterday! >> >> * I know #python-dev in IRC exists, but it is mostly a channel for >> bots to send notifications, and there are plenty. I am not certain if >> any core dev is active there. There was a time when this was active. >> * We tried python discord last year, and were bit overwhelmed with the >> number of channels and inability to customize >> * There seems to be Slack called pyslackers too[1]. I am yet to try it. >> >> To have a proper team-chat, we need a service (a) as well as (b) team >> using that. >> >> Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and >> options are >> >> a) Resurrect #python-dev - changing notifications to different group. >> b) Request for core-dev in pyslackers Slack >> c) Request for core-dev in Discord. >> >> Any other ideas are welcome. >> >> If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and >> discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your >> thoughts as well. >> >> If we feel a chat service will be a good idea for core-dev to >> hangaround, then we can go to stage 2 of choosing the service by votes >> in discourse (discuss.python.org). >> >> >> Thank you, >> Senthil >> ___ >> python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ >> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/BVPITIYRECSGCX2JUTMT7F7CCCYQSK4K/ >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > ___ > python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ > Message archived at > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/KMPHL7FMPLADQ4CYLXO5DYAEYCXUIM6A/ > Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/4XTHYNRO2QJJKT5O4LNYBHZMUG2J/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 16:58, Senthil Kumaran wrote: > > I see lots of vague complaining and no concrete argument. > > Really? I don't see that way. So far, I see that few others find > settling upon chat solution will be useful for core-dev too. I see a general interest in *having* some sort of community chat, but no real plan on how to get a critical mass of people on a chat system. Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that basically no-one uses it. So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there were no conversations going on. Yes, it's a circular argument, unless people use a system no-one will use it. I get that. But how do we break that cycle? Explicitly making it more of a social community (while still allowing that we're all technical so casual technical questions still count as social ;-)) might make a difference. As might a deliberate effort to keep people engaged. But just choosing a new tool and hoping people like it enough for the community to "just happen" seems destined to fail. Paul ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/5FI5XY4F2AAJEO4IX6WQ2XBUVDA6LQ3Z/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
Le 15/05/2021 à 19:01, Paul Moore a écrit : So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I don't see any point in having a vote, which comes up with the conclusion that (say) people like Discord, if we then set that up and there's no-one on there. If we were to ask the question, why did people stop logging into Zulip as part of their daily sign-in routine (or why did they never even start doing that), what would the answers be? Mine would be simply "because no-one was there". More specifically, even if people were there, there were no conversations going on. That certainly sounds like the most reasonable explanation. Explicitly making it more of a social community (while still allowing that we're all technical so casual technical questions still count as social ;-)) might make a difference. As might a deliberate effort to keep people engaged. But just choosing a new tool and hoping people like it enough for the community to "just happen" seems destined to fail. It was proposed that people list in a public place the timespans where they can make themselves available on a chat system. That would certainly help people gather and discuss together synchronously, if they are willing to. Regards Antoine. ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/DKYLM5BF2H2GAP2EQ3WU4PH5A5AHEKMI/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[python-committers] Re: core-dev chat
On 5/15/2021 1:01 PM, Paul Moore wrote: Specifically, we tried Zulip and it failed, in the sense that basically no-one uses it. So let's start by working out *why* it failed. I never tried it because it was introduced about the same time as 'discuss', and it was enough for me to learn *that*, and then 'discord' for the sprint. I never understood what the difference was supposed to be. Maybe because I never used IRC. I just logged in and it seems that most of the discussions were meta, about tulip itself. It is not at all limited to coredevs. Moreover, most of the discussion presented should have somehow been labelled 'closed' (BPO), 'answered' (SO), or otherwise 'ignore' or 'archived' unless specifically searched for. BPO's front page only lists the most recently active open issues. tjr ___ python-committers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/5VJAJVMPBSXHRQCJZBDVCKIL7NP5EZQI/ Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
