[Python-Dev] Presenting PEP 692: Using TypedDict for more precise **kwargs typing

[Franek Magiera]

PEP 692 is posted. It proposes to use TypedDict for more precise **kwargs 
typing, so that **kwargs consisting of arguments of different types can be 
appropriately typed. It also proposes a grammar change and a new dunder.

Here is a link to the PEP: https://peps.python.org/pep-0692/
And a link to the discuss thread: 
https://discuss.python.org/t/pep-692-using-typeddict-for-more-precise-kwargs-typing/17314
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

[h . vetinari]

I think it's a great idea! :) [1]

LLVM did the same recently (though they imported all previous messages from the 
mailinglist, thus making them searchable in discourse) [2 - announcement; 3 - 
retro], and by and large, I think it was a success.

One of the comments in the retro was:
> Searching the archives is much easier and have found me many old threads that 
> I probably would have problem finding before since I haven’t been subscribed 
> for that long.

I that it would be worth considering importing the mailing list into a separate 
discourse category that's then archived, but at least searchable. This would 
also lower the hurdle of new(er) contributors to investigate previous 
discussion on a given topic.

[1] 
https://discuss.python.org/t/what-i-miss-here-coming-from-users-rust-lang-org/13859/9
[2] https://blog.llvm.org/posts/2022-01-07-moving-to-discourse/
[3] 
https://discourse.llvm.org/t/response-to-the-move-to-discourse-retrospective/63159
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[Python-Dev] Re: [SPAM] Re: Switching to Discourse

[Baptiste Carvello]

Le 15/07/2022 à 17:52, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> 
> For everything on Discourse, the RSS feed is at
> https://discuss.python.org/latest.rss
> For a specific categoriy/topic, append .rss to the Web URL.

Hello,

thanks for the useful information.

However, I just tried it and I can only read the first message of each
thread. Then I have to "Read full topic" through the nightmarish web
interface with its nag screens.

Is there a way to access all posts through the mail/RSS client,
preferably with a threaded view?

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

[Skip Montanaro]

>
> I don't think I *can* do much more than accept it and move on:
> *if python-dev was used by everyone*, rather than almost exclusively by
> people who prefer e-mail (and presumably use threading mail clients),
> we'd get mangled threading anyway from all the non-threaded clients.
>

Don't forget that used to be the case. ;-)

Skip
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

[Joannah Nanjekye]

I see I might have misunderstood, thinking a python-dev channel on discuss
was not as active as the mailing list. Understood.

My original stand on preferring email stands though due to stable standards.

On Mon., Jul. 18, 2022, 4:41 p.m. Petr Viktorin,  wrote:

> On 15. 07. 22 21:13, Joannah Nanjekye wrote:
> > I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization,
> > for a platform whose future I don't know about.
> >
> > When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment
> > with python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving
> > python-dev too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected
> obviously.
>
> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you meant here.
>
> The "experiment" was introducing Discourse (discuss.python.org) to see
> if people would like it. It looks like they do, since the Core
> Development category on Discourse is more active than this mailing list
> (python-dev).
>
>
> >
> > On Fri., Jul. 15, 2022, 2:22 p.m. Petr Viktorin,  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > Currently development discussions are split between multiple
> > communication channels, for example:
> > - python-dev and discuss.python.org  for
> > design discussions,
> > - GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
> > - IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
> > - Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.
> >
> > While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
> > between python-dev and discuss.python.org
> > . It seems that for most
> > people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform
> –
> > even if we don't go with that person's favorite.
> >
> > The discuss.python.org  experiment has
> > been going on for quite a while,
> > and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
> > success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
> > According to staff, discuss.python.org 
> > is much easier to moderate.. If
> > you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org
> > , you're missing out.
> >
> > The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
> > discuss.python.org .
> > Practically, this means:
> > - Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org
> > 
> > - Moving discuss.python.org  up in the
> > devguide communications page
> > (https://devguide.python.org/communication/
> > )
> > - And that's it?
> >
> > I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
> > discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
> > auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org
> > .
> >
> > To be clear, discuss.python.org  allows
> > editing posts, which is frankly
> > handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used
> > for
> > adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
> > mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in
> a
> > few places.
> >
> > We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org
> >  website,
> > but there are some ways to avoid it:
> >
> > - For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
> > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss
> >  – it's not e-mail, but
> many
> > email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering
> Council
> > issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/
> > )
> > for important questions and discussions.
> >
> > - You can use discuss.python.org 's
> > “mailing list mode” (which subscribes
> > you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
> > messages locally.
> >
> > However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
> > anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not
> aware
> > of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
> > good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact
> when
> > we make the final decision.
> >
> >
> >
> > – Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
> > ___
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> > 

[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

[Petr Viktorin]

On 15. 07. 22 21:13, Joannah Nanjekye wrote:
I am -1 for leaving email due to the long history of standardization, 
for a platform whose future I don't know about.


When you say core development is busier, does that mean the experiment 
with python-dev failed? aka wasn't a success, if so why are we moving 
python-dev too if it's not working well? I stand to be corrected obviously.


I'm sorry, I don't understand what you meant here.

The "experiment" was introducing Discourse (discuss.python.org) to see 
if people would like it. It looks like they do, since the Core 
Development category on Discourse is more active than this mailing list 
(python-dev).





On Fri., Jul. 15, 2022, 2:22 p.m. Petr Viktorin, > wrote:


Hello,
Currently development discussions are split between multiple
communication channels, for example:
- python-dev and discuss.python.org  for
design discussions,
- GitHub Issues and Pull Requests for specific changes,
- IRC, Discord and private chats for real-time discussions,
- Topic-specific channels like typing-sig.

While most of these serve different needs, there is too much overlap
between python-dev and discuss.python.org
. It seems that for most
people, this situation is worse than sticking to either one platform –
even if we don't go with that person's favorite.

The discuss.python.org  experiment has
been going on for quite a while,
and while the platform is not without its issues, we consider it a
success. The Core Development category is busier than python-dev.
According to staff, discuss.python.org 
is much easier to moderate.. If
you're following python-dev but not discuss.python.org
, you're missing out.

The Steering Council would like to switch from python-dev to
discuss.python.org .
Practically, this means:
- Moving the required PEP announcements to discuss.python.org

- Moving discuss.python.org  up in the
devguide communications page
(https://devguide.python.org/communication/
)
- And that's it?

I imagine that the mailing list will stay around for continuing past
discussion threads and for announcements, eventually switching to
auto-reject incoming messages with a pointer to discuss.python.org
.

To be clear, discuss.python.org  allows
editing posts, which is frankly
handy for typos and clarifications. Editing alone should not be used
for
adding new info -- we should cultivate a culture of being friendly to
mail users & notification watchers. This probably bears repeating in a
few places.

We're aware not everyone wants to use the discuss.python.org
 website,
but there are some ways to avoid it:

- For new PEPs, you can point your RSS client to
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/peps.rss
 – it's not e-mail, but many
email clients have RSS support. You can also watch the Steering Council
issues on GitHub (https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/
)
for important questions and discussions.

- You can use discuss.python.org 's
“mailing list mode” (which subscribes
you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or categorizing
messages locally.

However, we would like to know if this will pose an undue burden to
anyone, if there are workflows or usage problems that we are not aware
of. As mentioned, this is something the Steering Council thinks is a
good idea, but we want to make sure we're aware of all the impact when
we make the final decision.



– Petr, on behalf of the Steering Council
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

[Petr Viktorin]

On 15. 07. 22 20:59, Ethan Furman wrote:

On 7/15/22 08:37, Petr Viktorin wrote:

 > And that's exactly why I consume Discourse in mailing list mode, with 
client-side

 > filtering in Thunderbird.

How do you handle threading?  I follow each (sub)thread through to it's 
end, as it keeps a logical flow, but Discourse has everything linear 
which means that as I read it the conversation keeps jumping around, 
making it hard to follow.


I accepted that it's linear.

I don't think I *can* do much more than accept it and move on: if 
python-dev was used by everyone, rather than almost exclusively by 
people who prefer e-mail (and presumably use threading mail clients), 
we'd get mangled threading anyway from all the non-threaded clients.


I mean, I could grumble about threading and bottom-posting and 
plain-text messages and IRC all day, but realistically, I'm not likely 
to convince anyone who's not into those things already.

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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

[Petr Viktorin]

On 16. 07. 22 8:48, Miro Hrončok wrote:

On 15. 07. 22 13:18, Petr Viktorin wrote:
- You can use discuss.python.org's “mailing list mode” (which 
subscribes you to all new posts), possibly with filtering and/or 
categorizing messages locally.


Hello Petr,

I suppose this might be the preferred way for the old farts like me who 
prefer mailing lists over a never-ending list of specific websites for 
each specific thing we are participating in.


What would be a good resource to read about this - where do I learn how 
to use discuss.python.org's in the “mailing list mode” 


Is this note enough?
https://devguide.python.org/developer-workflow/communication-channels/?highlight=discourse#enabling-mailing-list-mode

or what's the 
easiest way to filter incoming mail into directories based on 
discuss.python.org categories,


Tags at the start of the Subject line work pretty well (though they can 
change occasionally).


how do I handle answers/threads, 



and finally, how to make this approach effective?


That depends on what's effective for you, I'm afraid. I read/skim 
everything (except Users), so I might not need as much filtering as you.
In my experience, marking/muting a thread works about as well as for 
regular e-mail threads -- the linearity is suboptimal, but not that bad.



Note that I am capable of googling some of this stuff, but I am 
preferably looking for your personal tips, as I always assumed you are a 
mail person, like I am. If you prefer to use the RSS feeds, I am 
interested in tips there as well.


I don't use RSS feeds.
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