Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong gokoproj...@gmail.com wrote: I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: http://python3porting.com/differences.html There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference. If there is such reference available? I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point. //Lennart ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On 01/04/2014 08:20 PM, John Yeuk Hon Wong wrote: I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. Here's another reference: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/informit/promotions/python/python2python3.pdf -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong gokoproj...@gmail.com wrote: I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: http://python3porting.com/differences.html There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference. If there is such reference available? I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point. I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on Hacker News. I constantly see people claiming they are stuck on Python 2 until NumPy, SciPy, and matplotlib are ported. Many of these people state they would love to use Python 3 if it weren't for those projects. However, those projects have all been ported -- and the first two have been available for several years now. The same goes for differences documents. I think 15 of us have written such documents, most of which cross-reference the other documents. Somehow very few people seem to know about any of them. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 11:23:45 -0600 Brian Curtin br...@python.org wrote: On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 3:08 AM, Lennart Regebro rege...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 5:20 AM, John Yeuk Hon Wong gokoproj...@gmail.com wrote: I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. Not specifically for 2.7 and 3.3, no. This is a fairly complete list: http://python3porting.com/differences.html There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference. If there is such reference available? I'm honestly despairing that people still don't know that there is a free book on the topic. I have no idea how to increase the knowledge on this point. I think we collectively need better SEO, or something like that. Python 3 would be in a better place if people actually knew the current state of things, versus asking people on Hacker News. Perhaps there should be a porting guide as a prominent chapter in http://docs.python.org/3/ ? Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On 2014-01-02 17:54, Dan Stromberg wrote: I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey It would've been nice to see some crosstabs. Pretty much any question after Q3 is incomprehensible without splitting the respondents into sub-groups first. Of the 2.49% of people who said they've never written Python 2.x, how many of those people also said they have never written Python 3.x too? (There really is 4 categories of developers being surveyed here.) Of the 22.91% of people who said Python 3.x was a mistake, how many of them also said they have never written any Python 3.x? Of the 40% of people who said they have never written Python 3.x, how many of them also said they had dependencies keeping them on Python 2.x? Etc. -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On 4 January 2014 19:21, Scott Dial scott+python-...@scottdial.com wrote: On 2014-01-02 17:54, Dan Stromberg wrote: I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey It would've been nice to see some crosstabs. Pretty much any question after Q3 is incomprehensible without splitting the respondents into sub-groups first. Of the 2.49% of people who said they've never written Python 2.x, how many of those people also said they have never written Python 3.x too? (There really is 4 categories of developers being surveyed here.) Of the 22.91% of people who said Python 3.x was a mistake, how many of them also said they have never written any Python 3.x? Of the 40% of people who said they have never written Python 3.x, how many of them also said they had dependencies keeping them on Python 2.x? Etc. -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/luca.sbardella%40gmail.com Hi guys, you are my heroes but this survey is quite useless, can you include more people? I wasn't aware of it so many thousands of python users. And after that, you are well aware that Python 3 or 2 is becoming a liability, just stick with one, anyone (3) at this point. I don't want to go and learn a new language, please. Sorry for the rant ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
Luca Sbardella luca.sbarde...@gmail.com writes: you are my heroes but this survey is quite useless, can you include more people? The survey cohort was self-selected from those who read the forums where it was posted. I wasn't aware of it so many thousands of python users. That statement confuses me. Were you aware of it, or not? How did you become aware of it? And after that, you are well aware that Python 3 or 2 is becoming a liability, just stick with one, anyone (3) at this point. The policy of the Python core developers is quite clear, and has been for many years: Python 2 is a dead end, and Python 2.7 (released 2010-07-03, 3½ years ago) is the last Python 2. Python 2.7 is the last of the Python 2 line, there will never be new Python 2 features URL:http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/, everyone should migrate to Python 3. That is already the Python core developers's published policy. So, to whom are you speaking here on the Python core developers' forum? I don't want to go and learn a new language, please. Great! If you already know Python, then there is very little (certainly not “a new language”) different to move from Python 2.7 to Python 3. Enjoy! -- \ “Our task must be to free ourselves from our prison by widening | `\our circle of compassion to embrace all humanity and the whole | _o__) of nature in its beauty.” —Albert Einstein | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On 1/4/14 10:42 PM, Ben Finney wrote: Luca Sbardella luca.sbarde...@gmail.com writes: you are my heroes but this survey is quite useless, can you include more people? The survey cohort was self-selected from those who read the forums where it was posted. I wasn't aware of it so many thousands of python users. That statement confuses me. Were you aware of it, or not? How did you become aware of it? And after that, you are well aware that Python 3 or 2 is becoming a liability, just stick with one, anyone (3) at this point. The policy of the Python core developers is quite clear, and has been for many years: Python 2 is a dead end, and Python 2.7 (released 2010-07-03, 3½ years ago) is the last Python 2. Python 2.7 is the last of the Python 2 line, there will never be new Python 2 features URL:http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/, everyone should migrate to Python 3. That is already the Python core developers's published policy. So, to whom are you speaking here on the Python core developers' forum? I don't want to go and learn a new language, please. Great! If you already know Python, then there is very little (certainly not “a new language”) different to move from Python 2.7 to Python 3. Enjoy! I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference. If there is such reference available? Yeuk Hon ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:20 PM, John Yeuk Hon Wong gokoproj...@gmail.com wrote: I think it helps Luca and many others (including myself) if there is a reference of the difference between 2.7 and Python 3.3+. There are PEPs and books, but is there any such long list of references? If not, should we start investing in one? I know the basic one such as xrange and range, items vs iteritems, izip vs zip that sort of uniform syntax/library inclusion difference. If there is such reference available? This isn't comprehensive, but it does cover the issues I ran into while writing a backup program (of about 7,000 lines) that runs on 2.x and 3.x, unmodified: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~dstromberg/Intro-to-Python/ Specifically, I mean the Writing code to run on Python 2.x and 3.x document. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/ Thank you for doing this! If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/ Thank you for doing this! My pleasure. If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey , with a link from https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 . I put it in the CategoryImplementations category. The text I added to https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 reads Some people just don't want to use Python 3.x, which is their prerogative. However, they are in the minority., where in the minority is a link to the survey page. Does anyone want to vet it before I tell more people where to find it? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net writes: If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. Dan, can your reporting tool produce the report in HTML format (and plots as SVG images)? That would be IMO more suitable for uploading. -- \“Good morning, Pooh Bear”, said Eeyore gloomily. “If it is a | `\ good morning”, he said. “Which I doubt”, said he. —A. A. Milne, | _o__)_Winnie-the-Pooh_ | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
Somewhere you need to describe the survey methodology, who was surveyed, how were they selected, etc. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/ Thank you for doing this! My pleasure. If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey , with a link from https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 . I put it in the CategoryImplementations category. The text I added to https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 reads Some people just don't want to use Python 3.x, which is their prerogative. However, they are in the minority., where in the minority is a link to the survey page. Does anyone want to vet it before I tell more people where to find it? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/greg%40krypto.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:20 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net writes: If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. Dan, can your reporting tool produce the report in HTML format (and plots as SVG images)? That would be IMO more suitable for uploading. I believe people with a more expensive account than I paid for, have access to an HTML version. I don't know if the graphs are jpeg's or what in that. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
I don't know much (if anything ^_^) about survey methodology. I just created a 9 question survey and tossed it at a few places that Pythonistas hang out. Does this look better? https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey Thanks. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Gregory P. Smith g...@krypto.org wrote: Somewhere you need to describe the survey methodology, who was surveyed, how were they selected, etc. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 13:10:36 -0800 Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: Is there a better place to put this than: http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/python-2.x-vs-3.x-survey/ Thank you for doing this! My pleasure. If wiki.python.org supports file uploads, it may be the place for publishing the results. I put it at https://wiki.python.org/moin/2.x-vs-3.x-survey , with a link from https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 . I put it in the CategoryImplementations category. The text I added to https://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3 reads Some people just don't want to use Python 3.x, which is their prerogative. However, they are in the minority., where in the minority is a link to the survey page. Does anyone want to vet it before I tell more people where to find it? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/greg%40krypto.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know much (if anything ^_^) about survey methodology. I just created a 9 question survey and tossed it at a few places that Pythonistas hang out. Specifically, your methodology was to post the link to python-list and python-dev (and whatever else I didn't see). Apart from hacker news - not sure if that's a specific site or you're talking generically - your current description sounds right. ChrisA ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 2.x vs 3.x survey results
On 1/2/2014 10:01 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know much (if anything ^_^) about survey methodology. I just created a 9 question survey and tossed it at a few places that Pythonistas hang out. Specifically, your methodology was to post the link to python-list and python-dev (and whatever else I didn't see). Apart from hacker news - not sure if that's a specific site or you're talking generically - your current description sounds right. ChrisA I added links to the actual posts to help clarify where and how it was posted. Janzert ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
