Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:25:52 -0400
Terry Reedy wrote:
>
> Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the
> order of the 26 English letters.
How does that solve anything?
I just had to decide whether “Jason V. Miller” had to come before or
after “Jay T. Miller” ('Jason' < 'Jay' but 'V' > 'T'). Knowledge of the
“English” alphabet isn't enough to make a resolution: an idiosyncratic
rule is still needed.
(and before you claim that rule is well-known: I had to ask)
Regards
Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Alexander Belopolsky
wrote:
..
>
> BTW, does anybody know if
>
> Jiba = Jean-Baptiste LAMY ("Jiba")?
Yes that's it. He work on Soya 3d
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Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On 8/10/2010 6:29 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: If I were committing a patch and was checking to see whether a name that started with a decorated A (or any other letter) were already in the list, I would look in the appropriate place in the A (or other) section, not after Z. Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the order of the 26 English letters. Please use that order (including for decorated versions and tranliterations) instead of various idiosyncratic and possibly conflicting nationality-based rules. So where do you put Γεώργιος Μπουτσιούκης? As I said above, where the transliterated version Geor.. goes, with the tranliteration followed by '(Γεώργιος Μπουτσιούκης)' as I suggested elsewhere -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:50 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
..
>> or Александр Белопольский for that matter? :-)
>
> If you care about that, feel free to add that spelling to the file.
> Somebody proposed to put it along with some latin transliteration,
> which I can sympathize with.
>
That was Donald Knuth:
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/help.html#exotic
> If just the nickname in cyrillic is fine with you, it's of course
> fine, as well.
I am more than happy with my entry in its current form. :-)
BTW, does anybody know if
Jiba = Jean-Baptiste LAMY ("Jiba")?
CCing SF address to find out.
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Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
Am 11.08.2010 00:35, schrieb Alexander Belopolsky: > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:29 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > .. >> So where do you put Γεώργιος Μπουτσιούκης? >> > > or Александр Белопольский for that matter? :-) If you care about that, feel free to add that spelling to the file. Somebody proposed to put it along with some latin transliteration, which I can sympathize with. If just the nickname in cyrillic is fine with you, it's of course fine, as well. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:35 AM, Alexander Belopolsky wrote: > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:29 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > .. >> So where do you put Γεώργιος Μπουτσιούκης? >> > > or Александр Белопольский for that matter? :-) James Tauber did a UCA implementation in Python it seems: http://jtauber.com/blog/2006/01/27/python_unicode_collation_algorithm/, we could use this as a pre-commit hook to check changes on ACKS ;) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 6:29 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: .. > So where do you put Γεώργιος Μπουτσιούκης? > or Александр Белопольский for that matter? :-) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
> If I were committing a patch and was checking to see whether a name that > started with a decorated A (or any other letter) were already in the > list, I would look in the appropriate place in the A (or other) section, > not after Z. > > Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the > order of the 26 English letters. Please use that order (including for > decorated versions and tranliterations) instead of various idiosyncratic > and possibly conflicting nationality-based rules. So where do you put Γεώργιος Μπουτσιούκης? Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On 8/10/2010 3:44 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: No, but if he complains about it, we should change it. If "In rough English alphabetical order" is extended with "unless the person requests otherwise", then it should also be extended with "in which case the name is suffixed with '(phbr)' [or something similar] for 'put here by request'" so that a later, diligent person seeking to improve the ordering will not think that it out of standard order by accident or initial committer laziness and move it back. I believe we are having this discussion in part precisedly because Astrand after Z was not so tagged and was thought to have just been quickly appended. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: .. > If I were committing a patch and was checking to see whether a name that > started with a decorated A (or any other letter) were already in the list, I > would look in the appropriate place in the A (or other) section, not after > Z. > > Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the order of > the 26 English letters. Please use that order (including for decorated > versions and tranliterations) instead of various idiosyncratic and possibly > conflicting nationality-based rules. > I believe, the golden standard for this type of works can be found in the index pages of The Art of Computer Programming, http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/help.html#exotic It would be quite an effort to redo Misc/ACKS in that way, and even with ASCII transliteration of every name, there is still ambiguity: is "Van Rossum" sorted under "V", or under "R"? (See http://www.python.org/~guido/ for an answer.) Since it is apparent that no formal rule can be agreed upon, I think best effort "rough alphabetical" order is just fine. BTW, what is Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis' last name? :-) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
2010/8/10 Terry Reedy : > On 8/10/2010 9:13 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: >> >> 2010/8/10 Stephen J. Turnbull: >>> >>> Benjamin Peterson writes: >>> > 2010/8/9 Nick Coghlan: >>> > > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 2:10 AM, alexander.belopolsky >>> > > wrote: >>> > >> +PS: In the standard Python distribution, this file is encoded >>> > >> in UTF-8 +and the list is in rough alphabetical order by last >>> > >> names. >>> > >> >>> > >> David Abrahams >>> > >> Jim Ahlstrom >>> > >> @@ -28,6 +29,7 @@ >>> > >> Éric Araujo >>> > >> Jason Asbahr >>> > >> David Ascher >>> > >> +Peter Åstrand >>> > > From my recollection of the discussion when Peter was added, the >>> > > >first >>> > > character in his last name actually sorts after Z (despite its >>> > > resemblance to an A). >>> > This is correct. Don't think of Å as a kind of "A". It's its own >>> > letter, which sorts after Z in Swedish. >>> >>> That's true, but IIRC there are a fairly large number of letters where >>> different languages collate them in different positions. >>> >>> Is it worth actually asking appropriate humans to think about this, or >>> would it be better to use Unicode code point order for simplicity? >> >> I think it's largely a unimportant discussion. If people have an >> opinion of where their name should appear, they can by all means >> change it. However, "rough" is probably as best as it'll ever get. > > If I were committing a patch and was checking to see whether a name that > started with a decorated A (or any other letter) were already in the list, I > would look in the appropriate place in the A (or other) section, not after > Z. > > Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the order of > the 26 English letters. Please use that order (including for decorated > versions and tranliterations) instead of various idiosyncratic and possibly > conflicting nationality-based rules. > > For instance, suppose a 'Jean Charbol' posts a patch? Should we really have > to ask his/her 'nationality' before adding the name to the list? No, but if he complains about it, we should change it. > Librarians who filed author cards by birth nationality rules made the > now-obsolete card catalogs less useful for users who not know both birth > nationality and rule. Lets not repeat that mistake. How often are people trying to search through Misc/ACKS, though? -- Regards, Benjamin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On 8/10/2010 3:25 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the order of the 26 English letters. Please use that order (including for decorated versions and tranliterations) instead of various idiosyncratic and possibly conflicting nationality-based rules. Since the list is now utf-8 instead of latin-1 encoded, we could include the actual native character name, if supplied, in parentheses after the English-alphabetized transliteration. If we were to follow native rules, all Japanese names, for instance, should be separately listed and ordered according to the Japanese order, which is quite different from the European orders. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] r83893 - python/branches/release27-maint/Misc/ACKS
On 8/10/2010 9:13 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2010/8/10 Stephen J. Turnbull: Benjamin Peterson writes: > 2010/8/9 Nick Coghlan: > > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 2:10 AM, alexander.belopolsky > >wrote: > >> +PS: In the standard Python distribution, this file is encoded > >> in UTF-8 +and the list is in rough alphabetical order by last > >> names. > >> > >>David Abrahams > >>Jim Ahlstrom > >> @@ -28,6 +29,7 @@ > >>Éric Araujo > >>Jason Asbahr > >>David Ascher > >> +Peter Åstrand > > From my recollection of the discussion when Peter was added, the > > >first > > character in his last name actually sorts after Z (despite its > > resemblance to an A). > This is correct. Don't think of Å as a kind of "A". It's its own > letter, which sorts after Z in Swedish. That's true, but IIRC there are a fairly large number of letters where different languages collate them in different positions. Is it worth actually asking appropriate humans to think about this, or would it be better to use Unicode code point order for simplicity? I think it's largely a unimportant discussion. If people have an opinion of where their name should appear, they can by all means change it. However, "rough" is probably as best as it'll ever get. If I were committing a patch and was checking to see whether a name that started with a decorated A (or any other letter) were already in the list, I would look in the appropriate place in the A (or other) section, not after Z. Everyone working on the English-based Python distribution knows the order of the 26 English letters. Please use that order (including for decorated versions and tranliterations) instead of various idiosyncratic and possibly conflicting nationality-based rules. For instance, suppose a 'Jean Charbol' posts a patch? Should we really have to ask his/her 'nationality' before adding the name to the list? Suppose 'Charbol' was born in Spain but works in France? In Spain, at least, 'ch' words are alphabetized in dictionaries between 'c' and 'd' words. Did everyone already know that? I an mot ever sure if all Spanish-speaking countries still do that. I am under the impression that either the Irish or Scots have some fussy rules for Mc/Mac/O names but I don't know them and don't think we should observe them in our list. Librarians who filed author cards by birth nationality rules made the now-obsolete card catalogs less useful for users who not know both birth nationality and rule. Lets not repeat that mistake. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
