Re: [Python-Dev] Another buildslave - Ubuntu again

2012-05-02 Thread Martin v. Löwis

On 02.05.2012 08:07, Senthil Kumaran wrote:

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:55 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:

I'm not sure how useful it is to have a build slave which you can't
commit to having for more than 3 months. So I'm -0 on adding this
slave, but it is up to Antoine to decide.


I am likely switch to places within 3 months, but I am hoping that
having a 24/7 connected system could provide some experience for
running a dedicated system in the longer run.


You are talking about experience that you gain, right? Some of the build 
slaves have been connected for many years by now, so "we"

(the buildbot admins) already have plenty experience, which can
be summarized as "Unix good, Windows bad".

I suggest that you can still gain the experience when you are able to
provide a longer-term slave. You are then still free to drop out of
this at any time, so you don't really need to commit to supporting
this for years - but knowing that it likely is only for 3 months
might be too much effort for too little gain.

If you want to learn more about buildbot, I suggest that you also
setup a master on your system. You will have to find one of the hg
pollers as a change source, or additionally setup a local clone with
a post-receive hook which pulls cpython every five minutes or so
through a cron job, and posts changes to the local master.

Regards,
Martin

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[Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-02 Thread Larry Hastings



Right now the CPython trunk religiously declares all variables at the 
tops of scopes, before any code, because this is all C89 permits.  Back 
in the 90s all the C compilers took a page out of the C++ playbook and 
independently, but nearly without exception, extended the language to 
allow you declaring new variables after code statements.  This became an 
official part of the language with C99 back in 1999.


It's now 2012.  As I step out of my flying car onto the moving walkway 
that will glide me noiselessly into my platform sky dome... I can't help 
but think that we're a bit hidebound, slavishly devoting ourselves to 
C89.  CPython 3.3 drops support for VMS, OS/2, and even Windows 2000.


I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler.  (Its name 
rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.)  But even that 
compiler added this extension in the early 90s.


Do we officially support any C compilers that *don't* permit 
"intermingled variable declarations and code"?  Do we *unofficially* 
support any?  And if we do, what do we gain?



Just itching to pull some local macro hijinx, is all,


//arry/
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Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.3.0 alpha 3

2012-05-02 Thread Mark Shannon

Georg Brandl wrote:

On behalf of the Python development team, I'm happy to announce the
third alpha release of Python 3.3.0.

This is a preview release, and its use is not recommended in
production settings.

Python 3.3 includes a range of improvements of the 3.x series, as well
as easier porting between 2.x and 3.x.  Major new features and changes
in the 3.3 release series are:

* PEP 380, Syntax for Delegating to a Subgenerator ("yield from")
* PEP 393, Flexible String Representation (doing away with the
  distinction between "wide" and "narrow" Unicode builds)
* PEP 409, Suppressing Exception Context
* PEP 3151, Reworking the OS and IO exception hierarchy
* A C implementation of the "decimal" module, with up to 80x speedup
  for decimal-heavy applications
* The import system (__import__) is based on importlib by default
* The new "packaging" module, building upon the "distribute" and
  "distutils2" projects and deprecating "distutils"
* The new "lzma" module with LZMA/XZ support
* PEP 3155, Qualified name for classes and functions
* PEP 414, explicit Unicode literals to help with porting
* PEP 418, extended platform-independent clocks in the "time" module
* The new "faulthandler" module that helps diagnosing crashes
* A "collections.ChainMap" class for linking mappings to a single unit
* Wrappers for many more POSIX functions in the "os" and "signal"
  modules, as well as other useful functions such as "sendfile()"
* Hash randomization, introduced in earlier bugfix releases, is now
  switched on by default



Don't forget PEP 412 ;)

Rather than a long list of PEPs would it be better to split it into two 
parts?

1. language & library changes.
The details are important here, so that the PEPs should probably be 
fairly prominent.


2. Performance enhancements
People want to know how much faster 3.3 is or how less memory it uses.
Who cares which PEP does what (apart from the authors)?

Or maybe three parts?
New features.
Behavioural changes (i.e. bug fixes)
Performance enhancements

Cheers,
Mark.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-02 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 02 May 2012 01:43:32 -0700
Larry Hastings  wrote:
> 
> I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler.  (Its name 
> rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.)  But even that 
> compiler added this extension in the early 90s.
> 
> Do we officially support any C compilers that *don't* permit 
> "intermingled variable declarations and code"?  Do we *unofficially* 
> support any?  And if we do, what do we gain?

Well, there's this one called MSVC, which we support quite officially.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.3.0 alpha 3

2012-05-02 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Mark Shannon  wrote:
> Or maybe three parts?
> New features.
> Behavioural changes (i.e. bug fixes)
> Performance enhancements

The release PEPs are mainly there for *our* benefit, not end users.

For end users, it's the What's New document that matters. For
performance numbers, the goal is to eventually have speed.python.org
providing regular results, but there's a fair bit of work still
involved in bringing that online with meaningful 3.x figures.

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASED] Python 3.3.0 alpha 3

2012-05-02 Thread Mark Shannon

Nick Coghlan wrote:

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Mark Shannon  wrote:

Or maybe three parts?
New features.
Behavioural changes (i.e. bug fixes)
Performance enhancements


The release PEPs are mainly there for *our* benefit, not end users.

For end users, it's the What's New document that matters. For


The What's New document also starts with a long list of PEPs.
This seems to be the standard format as What's New for 3.2 follows the 
same layout.


Perhaps adding an overview or highlights at the start would be a good
idea.


performance numbers, the goal is to eventually have speed.python.org
providing regular results, but there's a fair bit of work still
involved in bringing that online with meaningful 3.x figures.


Like some meaningful benchmarks for 3.x; there are very few :(

Cheers,
Mark.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-02 Thread Matt Joiner
On May 2, 2012 6:00 PM, "Antoine Pitrou"  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 02 May 2012 01:43:32 -0700
> Larry Hastings  wrote:
> >
> > I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler.  (Its name
> > rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.)  But even that
> > compiler added this extension in the early 90s.
> >
> > Do we officially support any C compilers that *don't* permit
> > "intermingled variable declarations and code"?  Do we *unofficially*
> > support any?  And if we do, what do we gain?
>
> Well, there's this one called MSVC, which we support quite officially.

Not sure if comic genius or can't rhyme.

>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-02 Thread Stefan Behnel
Matt Joiner, 02.05.2012 15:37:
> On May 2, 2012 6:00 PM, "Antoine Pitrou" wrote:
>> On Wed, 02 May 2012 01:43:32 -0700
>> Larry Hastings  wrote:
>>>
>>> I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler.  (Its name
>>> rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.)  But even that
>>> compiler added this extension in the early 90s.
>>>
>>> Do we officially support any C compilers that *don't* permit
>>> "intermingled variable declarations and code"?  Do we *unofficially*
>>> support any?  And if we do, what do we gain?
>>
>> Well, there's this one called MSVC, which we support quite officially.
> 
> Not sure if comic genius or can't rhyme.

I'm not sure if MSVC and MSVC++ are the same thing, but I surely remember
reports by MSVC users only a few years ago that Cython generated C code
contained a declaration after an executed code at some point, and that
failed to compile for them. So, assuming that MSVC++ "added this extension
in the early 90s" and didn't remove it in the meantime, they must be two
different things.

Stefan

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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-02 Thread R. David Murray
On Wed, 02 May 2012 21:37:35 +0800, Matt Joiner  wrote:
> On May 2, 2012 6:00 PM, "Antoine Pitrou"  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 02 May 2012 01:43:32 -0700
> > Larry Hastings  wrote:
> > >
> > > I realize we can't jump to C99 because of A Certain Compiler.  (Its name
> > > rhymes with Bike Row Soft Frizz You All See Muss Muss.)  But even that
> > > compiler added this extension in the early 90s.
> > >
> > > Do we officially support any C compilers that *don't* permit
> > > "intermingled variable declarations and code"?  Do we *unofficially*
> > > support any?  And if we do, what do we gain?
> >
> > Well, there's this one called MSVC, which we support quite officially.
> 
> Not sure if comic genius or can't rhyme.

I had trouble with that rhyme, and I (unlike Antoine) am a native
English speaker.

--David
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Re: [Python-Dev] Does trunk still support any compilers that *don't* allow declaring variables after code?

2012-05-02 Thread Curt Hagenlocher
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 6:56 AM, Stefan Behnel  wrote:

> I'm not sure if MSVC and MSVC++ are the same thing, but I surely remember
> reports by MSVC users only a few years ago that Cython generated C code
> contained a declaration after an executed code at some point, and that
> failed to compile for them. So, assuming that MSVC++ "added this extension
> in the early 90s" and didn't remove it in the meantime, they must be two
> different things.


I believe you need to tell MSVC that it's a C++ source file by using "/Tp"
in order to make this work. And of course, there would be other
ramifications for doing that.

-Curt
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[Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Carl Meyer

Hi all,

Are the download pages for older Python versions supposed to be kept up 
to date at all? I just noticed that the 2.4.6 download page 
(http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.4.6/) says things like 
"Python 2.4 is now in security-fix-only mode" (whereas in fact it no 
longer gets even security fixes), and "Python 2.6 is the latest release 
of Python."


While checking to see if there was a SIG that would be more appropriate 
for this question, I also noticed that if one clicks on Community | 
Mailing Lists in the left sidebar of python.org, there's a "Special 
Interest Groups" link under "Mailing Lists" which is a 404 (not to 
mention redundant, as there's also one parallel to "Mailing Lists" that 
works).


(Please do let me know if there is a more appropriate forum for website 
issues/questions).


Carl
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Re: [Python-Dev] Another buildslave - Ubuntu again

2012-05-02 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 2 May 2012 14:07:09 +0800
Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:55 PM, "Martin v. Löwis"  wrote:
> > I'm not sure how useful it is to have a build slave which you can't
> > commit to having for more than 3 months. So I'm -0 on adding this
> > slave, but it is up to Antoine to decide.
> 
> I am likely switch to places within 3 months, but I am hoping that
> having a 24/7 connected system could provide some experience for
> running a dedicated system in the longer run.

What are the characteristics of your machine? We already have several
Linux x86/x86-64 buildbots... That said, we could also toy with other
build options if someone has a request about that.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Another buildslave - Ubuntu again

2012-05-02 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Wed, 2 May 2012 13:13:15 +1000
Chris Angelico  wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
> > Also, I think the instructions in the wiki could be improved. I was
> > not able to su - buildbot after installing through package manager. I
> > shall edit it once I have set it up and running.
> 
> The page does say: """... create a new user "buildbot" if it doesn't
> exist (your package manager might have done it for you)""", but it'd
> be nice if it could clarify which are known to do it and which are
> known not to, eg "(the Debian and Red Hat package managers will do
> this for you)". Or is that too much of a moving target to be worth
> trying to specify?

That page would probably like a good cleanup. I don't even think
creating an user is required - it's just good practice, and you
probably want that user to have as few privileges as possible.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Terry Reedy

On 5/2/2012 10:16 AM, Carl Meyer wrote:

Hi all,

Are the download pages for older Python versions supposed to be kept up
to date at all? I just noticed that the 2.4.6 download page
(http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.4.6/) says things like
"Python 2.4 is now in security-fix-only mode" (whereas in fact it no
longer gets even security fixes), and "Python 2.6 is the latest release
of Python."

While checking to see if there was a SIG that would be more appropriate
for this question, I also noticed that if one clicks on Community |
Mailing Lists in the left sidebar of python.org, there's a "Special
Interest Groups" link under "Mailing Lists" which is a 404 (not to
mention redundant, as there's also one parallel to "Mailing Lists" that
works).

(Please do let me know if there is a more appropriate forum for website
issues/questions).


I would send the above to [email protected] (should be at the bottom 
of pages). We develop CPython but do not directly manage the website.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Another buildslave - Ubuntu again

2012-05-02 Thread Senthil Kumaran
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> What are the characteristics of your machine? We already have several
> Linux x86/x86-64 buildbots... That said, we could also toy with other
> build options if someone has a request about that.

It is not very unique. It is Intel x86 (32 bit) and 1 GB ram. It is
running Ubuntu Server edition.  Yeah if additional build options (or
additional software configuration options) or some alternative
coverage could be thought off with current config itself, I could do
that.

Thanks,
Senthil
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Re: [Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Michael Foord

On 2 May 2012, at 16:55, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 5/2/2012 10:16 AM, Carl Meyer wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Are the download pages for older Python versions supposed to be kept up
>> to date at all? I just noticed that the 2.4.6 download page
>> (http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.4.6/) says things like
>> "Python 2.4 is now in security-fix-only mode" (whereas in fact it no
>> longer gets even security fixes), and "Python 2.6 is the latest release
>> of Python."
>> 
>> While checking to see if there was a SIG that would be more appropriate
>> for this question, I also noticed that if one clicks on Community |
>> Mailing Lists in the left sidebar of python.org, there's a "Special
>> Interest Groups" link under "Mailing Lists" which is a 404 (not to
>> mention redundant, as there's also one parallel to "Mailing Lists" that
>> works).
>> 
>> (Please do let me know if there is a more appropriate forum for website
>> issues/questions).
> 
> I would send the above to [email protected] (should be at the bottom of 
> pages). We develop CPython but do not directly manage the website.


Not true. The download pages are administered by the release managers not the 
web team. 

For the record, the best way of contacting the web team (such as it is) is the 
pydotorg-www mailing list. There are precious few people (even fewer than there 
are in the web team...) responding to emails on the webmaster alias. :-)

Michael

> 
> -- 
> Terry Jan Reedy
> 
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May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Another buildslave - Ubuntu again

2012-05-02 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Thu, 3 May 2012 00:25:05 +0800
Senthil Kumaran  wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> 
> > What are the characteristics of your machine? We already have several
> > Linux x86/x86-64 buildbots... That said, we could also toy with other
> > build options if someone has a request about that.
> 
> It is not very unique. It is Intel x86 (32 bit) and 1 GB ram. It is
> running Ubuntu Server edition.  Yeah if additional build options (or
> additional software configuration options) or some alternative
> coverage could be thought off with current config itself, I could do
> that.

Daily code coverage builds would be nice, but that's probably beyond
what the current infrastructure can offer. It would be nice if someone
wants to investigate that.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Ezio Melotti

On 02/05/2012 19.33, Michael Foord wrote:

On 2 May 2012, at 16:55, Terry Reedy wrote:

I would send the above to [email protected] (should be at the bottom of 
pages). We develop CPython but do not directly manage the website.

Not true. The download pages are administered by the release managers not the 
web team.

For the record, the best way of contacting the web team (such as it is) is the 
pydotorg-www mailing list. There are precious few people (even fewer than there 
are in the web team...) responding to emails on the webmaster alias. :-)

Michael


I'm pretty sure that several core devs are able (and possibly willing) 
to help out with the website, but AFAIU they have to request commit 
right for a separate repo where the website lives or report issues via 
mail.  Is there any practical reason why the repo for the website is not 
on hg with all the other repos (cpython/devguide/peps/etc.) except that 
no one ported it yet?


Best Regards,
Ezio Melotti
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Re: [Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Brian Curtin
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Ezio Melotti  wrote:
> On 02/05/2012 19.33, Michael Foord wrote:
>>
>> On 2 May 2012, at 16:55, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>
>>> I would send the above to [email protected] (should be at the bottom
>>> of pages). We develop CPython but do not directly manage the website.
>>
>> Not true. The download pages are administered by the release managers not
>> the web team.
>>
>> For the record, the best way of contacting the web team (such as it is) is
>> the pydotorg-www mailing list. There are precious few people (even fewer
>> than there are in the web team...) responding to emails on the webmaster
>> alias. :-)
>>
>> Michael
>
>
> I'm pretty sure that several core devs are able (and possibly willing) to
> help out with the website, but AFAIU they have to request commit right for a
> separate repo where the website lives or report issues via mail.  Is there
> any practical reason why the repo for the website is not on hg with all the
> other repos (cpython/devguide/peps/etc.) except that no one ported it yet?

I don't know if there's a practical reason, but given that the website
will eventually be changing anyway, I think it's a waste of time to
port it to hg. You'd also have to port the build chain to hg, since it
rebuilds the site when svn is updated.

Then by the time you're done, there's zero net gain and it all gets thrown away.
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Re: [Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Martin v. Löwis

On 02.05.2012 17:55, Terry Reedy wrote:

On 5/2/2012 10:16 AM, Carl Meyer wrote:

Hi all,

Are the download pages for older Python versions supposed to be kept up
to date at all? I just noticed that the 2.4.6 download page
(http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.4.6/) says things like
"Python 2.4 is now in security-fix-only mode" (whereas in fact it no
longer gets even security fixes), and "Python 2.6 is the latest release
of Python."

While checking to see if there was a SIG that would be more appropriate
for this question, I also noticed that if one clicks on Community |
Mailing Lists in the left sidebar of python.org, there's a "Special
Interest Groups" link under "Mailing Lists" which is a 404 (not to
mention redundant, as there's also one parallel to "Mailing Lists" that
works).

(Please do let me know if there is a more appropriate forum for website
issues/questions).


I would send the above to [email protected] (should be at the bottom
of pages).


Please don't (unless you want your message ignored).

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] outdated info on download pages for older versions

2012-05-02 Thread Martin v. Löwis

Are the download pages for older Python versions supposed to be kept up
to date at all?


I occasionally update them when I see issues with them. Your specific 
issue, I missed so far.


If you would like to make this kind of update, please let me know.

Regards,
Martin

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Re: [Python-Dev] Open PEPs and large-scale changes for 3.3

2012-05-02 Thread Yury Selivanov
On 2012-05-01, at 4:12 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
> 
> That would be great! First thing is addressing Guido's concerns from 
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2012-March/117515.html and then 
> handling any issues you found. Not sure if Larry was asking about this out of 
> curiosity or because he too wanted to help.

Great!  I'll start looking into this on the weekend.

-
Yury
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Re: [Python-Dev] Open PEPs and large-scale changes for 3.3

2012-05-02 Thread Yury Selivanov
On 2012-05-02, at 2:46 AM, Larry Hastings wrote:

> On 05/01/2012 01:12 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>> That would be great! First thing is addressing Guido's concerns from 
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2012-March/117515.html and then 
>> handling any issues you found. Not sure if Larry was asking about this out 
>> of curiosity or because he too wanted to help.
> 
> Asking, that is, off-list.  So your observation was kinda out of left field 
> for the casual observer ;-)
> 
> I was asking because I was interested in helping, but I haven't looked into 
> it too much, and I'm not sure how much of a priority it is.  It's clear that 
> Yury has spent way more time with the issue.  If he'd* like my help I'll try 
> to lend it but I bet he's got it under control.

Let's work on this together.  I'll revisit the PEP and Guido's comments, and 
will get back to you and Brett with my ideas.

-
Yury
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Fix PyUnicode_Substring() for start >= length and start > end

2012-05-02 Thread Nick Coghlan
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 10:33 AM, victor.stinner
 wrote:
> +    if (start >= length || end < start) {
> +        assert(end == length);
> +        return PyUnicode_New(0, 0);
> +    }

That assert doesn't look right.

Consider:

  "abc"[4:1]

Unless I'm missing something, "end" will be 1, but "length" will be 3

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   [email protected]   |   Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython: Fix PyUnicode_Substring() for start >= length and start > end

2012-05-02 Thread Victor Stinner
>> +    if (start >= length || end < start) {
>> +        assert(end == length);
>> +        return PyUnicode_New(0, 0);
>> +    }
>
> That assert doesn't look right.

Oh, you're right. I added it for the first case: start>=length. But
the assertion is really useless, I removed it. Thanks!

Victor
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