Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Python is a programming language. It can be used for scripting, but that's not all it can do. Describing it as a scripting language is like describing a fully-equipped professional kitchen as a left-over warming room. +1 QOTW. -- Cheers, Simon B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:11:51 -0700, sturlamolden wrote: Yes. And because Python is a scripting language Python is a programming language. It can be used for scripting, but that's not all it can do. Describing it as a scripting language is like describing a fully-equipped professional kitchen as a left-over warming room. I'm putting words in sturlamolden's mouth here, but I think he was implying that Python has all the advantages of a scripting language, hence has a much gentler introduction than many fully-fledged programming languages (and indeed, many scripting languages). Cheers, Tim Delaney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
I vote a strong yes! I went through a MIS major and learned java first. This was a disaster for me typing these long nonsense lines (I didn't understand how classes and their members worked). Next was C and we had to use a command line and notepad to do all our programs. I really didn't learn much. After I graduated a friend told me to try python since I had this screw programming attitude. Actually I really did want to program. The fact that I could type one liners in without having to do make files and all that actually made it feasible for me to learn. I learned more from python and the tutorial list than 4 years of college. I really am serious! I'm going back now and learning C++ and might be able to learn crystal space 3d here before too long. James Carnell Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:11:51 -0700, sturlamolden wrote: Yes. And because Python is a scripting language -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
Paul Rubin wrote: Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've been learning a fair amount about functional programming recently, mostly because compile-time C++ turns out to be a pure functional programming language. Where should I go for a solid grounding in lambda-calculus? For PL theory in general, try this: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/plbook/book.pdf What a mess. That's some professor inventing his very own variation on predicate calculus and writing a book using his own notation and terminology. There's no sign of footnotes or references to prior work. The notation doesn't seem to do anything not previously possible; it's just different. Back when I was doing program verification work, we used to refer to stuff like that as the logic of the month club. John Nagle -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
John Nagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What a mess. That's some professor inventing his very own variation on predicate calculus and writing a book using his own notation and terminology. I thought it was all pretty standard. It's the same notation I see in other PL stuff. There's no sign of footnotes or references to prior work. Maybe he'll add that. It's a work in progress. Back when I was doing program verification work, we used to refer to stuff like that as the logic of the month club. I thought the book was pretty good and I've learned quite a bit from the parts I've read. Also, the author is one of the big cheeses in the SML world, if that matters. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:15:00 -0700, John Nagle wrote: That's some professor inventing his very own variation on predicate calculus and writing a book using his own notation and terminology. There's no sign of footnotes or references to prior work. The notation doesn't seem to do anything not previously possible; it's just different. You say that as if it were unusual in maths circles :) -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 5:40 pm, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. Yes. The nice thing with Python is that you can start off with really simple examples and slowly build up the complexity along with the understanding of the students. There's no need to explain OO before the students can write their first 'Hello, world'. There's almost no limit to how 'shallow/deep' you can go with Python. 2B -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 23, 8:14 am, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] cybersource.com.au wrote: On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:15:00 -0700, John Nagle wrote: That's some professor inventing his very own variation on predicate calculus and writing a book using his own notation and terminology. There's no sign of footnotes or references to prior work. The notation doesn't seem to do anything not previously possible; it's just different. You say that as if it were unusual in maths circles :) Haha. As opposed to programmers who have all agreed to use the same language. Anyway, I have browsed the book and agree with Paul Rubin that there doesn't seem to be any unusual notation in it, although there are a numbers of topics that I am not really familiar with. -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On 2008-03-22, bsoist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 22, 12:40 pm, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. Absolutely. I love using Python in the real world but it is fantastic for beginning programmers. Python enforces good habits and presents many opportunities to discuss programming from an academic perspective. Why does Python not have a switch or until statement? Why doesn't it? Why are very common objects (stack, queue, linked list) not builtin? etc. I think I know this one: you just use builtin lists to do stacks, queues and, er, lists. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. I for one can't really answer this question but I wanted to share the reason for that :-) since I worked in the dutch high school equivalent for a number of years. First and most important is I think the objective you want to reach, at my school we had a number of angles: - A math teacher using it as a simpler way of writing examples and explanation while being able to let the students see what is going on and why. - A basic grade computer introduction, to let them feel what automation is about, more like the philosophy of it. - A higher grade computer science (well for high school that is) introduction in to programming. - A explanation what makes the computer tick and how it does it (cpu architecture, memory management etc.) In my opinion python is extremely useful for all of these objectives, except for the last one, this would be more a job for assembler. My school decided not to go in depth to that because we felt it would be out of reach for the majority of the students and we didn't wanted to spoil the students when they decide to take up CS in university later on. -- mph -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 10:40 am, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Yes. Thank you. You're welcome. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, despite reassurances to the contrary, I still get the impression that there is a strong anti-lambda sentiment among the Python in crowd. Is it just a question of the word lambda, as opposed to perceived cleaner syntax? The problem with lambda is that too often it results in clutter (this is a strictly made-up example off the top of my head for illustrative purposes rather than any real code, but I've seen plenty of code similar at various times): gui.create_window(origin=(123,456), background=gui.WHITE, foreground=gui.BLACK, callback=lambda x: x*2) That means I need to pause reading the create_window() arguments while I figure out what the lambda means -- and often the lambda is more complicated than that. Moreover, because the lambda is unnamed, it's missing a reading cue for its purpose. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code. --Bill Harlan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
On Mar 23, 12:24 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: The problem with lambda is that too often it results in clutter (this is a strictly made-up example off the top of my head for illustrative purposes rather than any real code, but I've seen plenty of code similar at various times): gui.create_window(origin=(123,456), background=gui.WHITE, foreground=gui.BLACK, callback=lambda x: x*2) That means I need to pause reading the create_window() arguments while I figure out what the lambda means -- and often the lambda is more complicated than that. Moreover, because the lambda is unnamed, it's missing a reading cue for its purpose. In a sense the lambda here is not unnamed; it's name is the name of the keyword argument, 'callback', which is indeed a poor name at in terms of self-documentation. I don't see how replacing the lambda with a (better) named function would be any better than using the same name as a keyword parameter. George -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 09:24:35 -0700, Aahz wrote: The problem with lambda is that too often it results in clutter (this is a strictly made-up example off the top of my head for illustrative purposes rather than any real code, but I've seen plenty of code similar at various times): gui.create_window(origin=(123,456), background=gui.WHITE, foreground=gui.BLACK, callback=lambda x: x*2) That means I need to pause reading the create_window() arguments while I figure out what the lambda means -- and often the lambda is more complicated than that. Moreover, because the lambda is unnamed, it's missing a reading cue for its purpose. And of course this would be so much better: def double(x): return x*2 gui.create_window(origin=(123,456), background=gui.WHITE, foreground=gui.BLACK, callback=double) Not. The source of the clutter (having *less* code is clutter???) and confusion isn't the lambda, it's the callback. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
Also, despite reassurances to the contrary, I still get the impression that there is a strong anti-lambda sentiment among the Python in crowd. Is it just a question of the word lambda, as opposed to perceived cleaner syntax? There is a fundamental disharmony in how functions and other objects are treated in Python. If I say: x = ['surprise', 'fear', 'ruthless efficiency'] I've done two things. First, I've created a list, then I've bound the name x to that list (maybe bound is not exactly the right terminology). Until the assignment happend, the list had no name. In fact, it still has no name; there's just a reference to it stored in a variable whose name is x. If I were to then do y = x now y and x have equal relationships to the original list. The list's name is no more x than it is y, since the whole concept of the name of the list doesn't have any meaning in Python. On the other hand, when I do: def torture(): woman.putInChair() cushion.poke() rack.turn() I've also done two things. First, I've created a function object (i.e. a lambda body), and I've also bound the name torture to that function object, in much the same way I did with the list. But, it's different. The function object KNOWS that it's name is torture. When I later reassign it to another name and run it: weapon = torture weapon() This is what I get: Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in module File stdin, line 2, in torture NameError: global name 'woman' is not defined Notice, the second line in the stack trace identified the function's name as torture, not weapon. Because that IS the function's name. Lists are anonymous. Functions have names (as do a few other things like classes and modules). If I ask a list what its name is, I get: AttributeError: 'list' object has no attribute '__name__' but, if I ask a function what it's name is (regardless of what name I've bound it to), I get the right answer: torture.__name__ 'torture' weapon.__name__ 'torture' If we created lisp-like lambdas and bound them to names like we did with other types of objects, we wouldn't have that. What Python give us with lambdas is some half-way thing. It's not a full function, so it's something that people use rarely, which means most people (like me) can't remember the exact syntax. Even when I know it's the right thing to be using in a situation, I tend not to use it simply because the path of least resistance is to write a one-off function vs. looking up the exact syntax for a lambda in the manual. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
On Mar 23, 4:24 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, despite reassurances to the contrary, I still get the impression that there is a strong anti-lambda sentiment among the Python in crowd. Is it just a question of the word lambda, as opposed to perceived cleaner syntax? The problem with lambda is that too often it results in clutter (this is a strictly made-up example off the top of my head for illustrative purposes rather than any real code, but I've seen plenty of code similar at various times): gui.create_window(origin=(123,456), background=gui.WHITE, foreground=gui.BLACK, callback=lambda x: x*2) That means I need to pause reading the create_window() arguments while I figure out what the lambda means -- and often the lambda is more complicated than that. Moreover, because the lambda is unnamed, it's missing a reading cue for its purpose. I find lambdas invaluable very frequently - often to avoid the reading clutter. * Transforming function calls something.Event += lambda sender, event: real_handler() * Properties name = property(lambda self: self.__name, __set_name) * Very short functions where extra lines reduce readability if direction == 'left': transform = lambda x, y: -x else: transform = lambda x, y: x * Functions that take functions as arguments old_list = [(3,1), (2, 2), (1, 3)] new_list = sorted(old_list, key=lambda x: x[1]) new_data = process(data_Set, lambda x: x+1) new_data2 = process(data_Set, lambda x: x-1) I don't think any of these are unreadable or improved by defining a 'real' function. Michael http://www.ironpythoninaction.com -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) *http://www.pythoncraft.com/ It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code. --Bill Harlan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 6:40 pm, Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Linux and Python are a nearly ideal combination for this. Be aware that at some point, you will likely have to dig into C, the primary language used to implement both Linux and Python. I've been using Python for five years and now work full-time as a Python programmer. I've not had to hit C. :-) Michael Foord http://www.ironpythoninaction.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:51:34 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:
On the other hand, when I do:
def torture():
woman.putInChair()
cushion.poke()
rack.turn()
I've also done two things. First, I've created a function object (i.e.
a lambda body), and I've also bound the name torture to that function
object, in much the same way I did with the list. But, it's different.
The function object KNOWS that it's name is torture.
No it does not. Function objects don't know their name. All they know is
that they have a label attached to them that is useful to use as a name
in some contexts, e.g. when printing tracebacks. It's just a label,
nothing more.
You can prove that for yourself with a few simple tests. Firstly, we can
prove that functions don't know what they are called by writing a
recursive function:
def spam(n):
if n = 1: return Spam
return Spam + spam(n-1)
If spam() knows what it is called, then you should be able to rename the
function and the recursive call will continue to work. But in fact,
that's not what happens:
spam(3) # check that it works
'Spam Spam Spam'
tasty_stuff = spam # make an alias
tasty_stuff(3)
'Spam Spam Spam'
But now watch what happens when we create a new function with the name
spam. It hijacks the recursive call:
def spam(n):
... return ham-like meat product
...
tasty_stuff(3)
'Spam ham-like meat product'
The function formerly known as spam isn't calling itself, it is merely
calling a function by name spam. But we can see that the function
tasty_stuff() is still using the old spam label for itself:
tasty_stuff('foo')
Traceback (most recent call last):
File stdin, line 1, in module
File stdin, line 3, in spam
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for -: 'str' and 'int'
Unfortunately there's nothing we can do to fix that error. Even though
the function object has an attribute __name__ (also known as
func_name) which is set to spam, it isn't used for tracebacks. Instead,
the label comes from a read-only attribute buried deep in the function
object:
tasty_stuff.func_code.co_name = 'yummy meat-like product in a can'
Traceback (most recent call last):
File stdin, line 1, in module
TypeError: readonly attribute
This is a mistake, in my opinion. It's an arbitrary decision to make this
read-only (as far as I can tell), which goes against the grain of
Python's we're all consenting adults here philosophy.
By the way, in case you're thinking that wanting to change the (so-
called) name of a function is a silly think to do, not at all. Consider
factory functions:
def factory(how_much):
def f(n=1):
for i in range(n):
print I love spam a %s % how_much
return f
Every function created by the factory has the same name, no matter what
name you actually use to refer to it. factory('little') and
factory('lot') both uselessly identify themselves as f in tracebacks.
The truth is that objects don't know what name they have, because objects
don't have names. The relationship is the other way around: names have
objects, not vice versa. Some objects (functions, classes, anything
else?) usefully need a label so that they can refer to themselves in
tracebacks and similar, and we call that label the name, but it's just
a label. It doesn't mean anything.
[snip]
What Python give us with lambdas is some half-way thing. It's not a
full function, so it's something that people use rarely,
Which people?
which means most people (like me) can't remember the exact syntax.
Speak for yourself, not for most people.
Even when I know
it's the right thing to be using in a situation, I tend not to use it
simply because the path of least resistance is to write a one-off
function vs. looking up the exact syntax for a lambda in the manual.
lambda arguments : expression
Why is that harder to remember than this?
def name ( arguments ) :
block
And don't forget to include a return statement, or you'll be surprised by
the result of the function.
--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On 23 Mrz., 09:31, Arnaud Delobelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 23, 8:14 am, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] cybersource.com.au wrote: On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 23:15:00 -0700, John Nagle wrote: That's some professor inventing his very own variation on predicate calculus and writing a book using his own notation and terminology. There's no sign of footnotes or references to prior work. The notation doesn't seem to do anything not previously possible; it's just different. You say that as if it were unusual in maths circles :) Haha. As opposed to programmers who have all agreed to use the same language. Anyway, I have browsed the book and agree with Paul Rubin that there doesn't seem to be any unusual notation in it, although there are a numbers of topics that I am not really familiar with. -- Arnaud The author at least introduces his notation in the initial chapter. This is good style among mathematicians who introduce conventions at the beginning of their books or in an appendix. Note that I'm with Paul here but I'm not sure what John is complaining about anyway. Maybe sequent calculus ( natural deduction ) which was introduced by Gentzen around 75 years ago? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequent_calculus -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:51:34 -0400, Roy Smith wrote: On the other hand, when I do: def torture(): woman.putInChair() cushion.poke() rack.turn() I've also done two things. First, I've created a function object (i.e. a lambda body), and I've also bound the name torture to that function object, in much the same way I did with the list. But, it's different. The function object KNOWS that it's name is torture. No it does not. Function objects don't know their name. All they know is that they have a label attached to them that is useful to use as a name in some contexts, e.g. when printing tracebacks. It's just a label, nothing more. I think we're arguing the same thing. When you write def foo(): whatever you create an object which contains the string foo, retrievable through its __name__ attribute. That's what I meant by it knows its name What Python give us with lambdas is some half-way thing. It's not a full function, so it's something that people use rarely, Which people? which means most people (like me) can't remember the exact syntax. Speak for yourself, not for most people. Well, OK. When I said, most people, I really meant I know about me, and I'm guessing about other people. I still think it's a fair statement that if you look any large collection of Python code, you will find many more uses of def than of lambda. Even when I know it's the right thing to be using in a situation, I tend not to use it simply because the path of least resistance is to write a one-off function vs. looking up the exact syntax for a lambda in the manual. lambda arguments : expression Why is that harder to remember than this? def name ( arguments ) : block because I remember things I use often, better than I remember things I use infrequently. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Why I hate lambdas (Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?)
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:36:35 -0400, Roy Smith wrote: I've also done two things. First, I've created a function object (i.e. a lambda body), and I've also bound the name torture to that function object, in much the same way I did with the list. But, it's different. The function object KNOWS that it's name is torture. No it does not. Function objects don't know their name. All they know is that they have a label attached to them that is useful to use as a name in some contexts, e.g. when printing tracebacks. It's just a label, nothing more. I think we're arguing the same thing. When you write def foo(): whatever you create an object which contains the string foo, retrievable through its __name__ attribute. That's what I meant by it knows its name But that's not true. Firstly, you can't access the __name__ attribute unless you already have a reference to the object (not necessarily a name), so clearly the __name__ attribute isn't how you retrieve objects. Secondly, the __name__ attribute has no special purpose. It's not even used for tracebacks. def foo(): ... return result ... foo.__name__ = something something() Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in module NameError: name 'something' is not defined something = foo something() 'result' something(None) Traceback (most recent call last): File stdin, line 1, in module TypeError: foo() takes no arguments (1 given) something.__name__ 'something' -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 1:40 pm, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. Yes. You'll probably get 100 positive answers! Check out the edu-sig mailing list for discussions on the topic. And you may want to check out rur-ple.sourceforge.net, where ple stands for Python Learning Environment. André -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Linux and Python are a nearly ideal combination for this. Be aware that at some point, you will likely have to dig into C, the primary language used to implement both Linux and Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. I'm not from the US and I'm not sure what 9th/12th grade are, but if you want to use programming to explore maths, er I mean math, have a look at the sage project: http://www.sagemath.org/ -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. ABSOLUTELY. Get them started with a REAL programming language that will teach them proper fundamentals. I wish Python would have been around 25 years ago when I taught incoming Freshmen at local University. To get students to understand about variable references, etc. I always started them with Assembler so they could understand what was actually going on. I see so may on this forum that have the wrong ideas about variable names/ storage. Good Luck, Larry Bates -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
Larry Bates wrote: jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. ABSOLUTELY. Get them started with a REAL programming language that will teach them proper fundamentals. I wish Python would have been around 25 years ago when I taught incoming Freshmen at local University. To get students to understand about variable references, etc. What do you mean by variable references, and how are they used in Python? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 3:48 pm, Arnaud Delobelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. I'm not from the US and I'm not sure what 9th/12th grade are, but if you want to use programming to explore maths, er I mean math, have a look at the sage project: 9th grade roughly corresponds to 3e collège and 10th/12th grade roughly correspond to the first three years of le lycée - although from my past teaching experience (as a physicist) in French, I have concluded that mathematics is taught at a higher level in France than it is in North America - simply looking at the various books available on given topics. http://www.sagemath.org/ Sage is great. However, I think it is much too advanced for 9th/12th grade. Furthermore, the OP was looking for suggestion teaching *programming*, not math. André -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jeff Schwab wrote: jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Linux and Python are a nearly ideal combination for this. Be aware that at some point, you will likely have to dig into C, the primary language used to implement both Linux and Python. At that level I don't see why they would need to hit 'C' at all. Maybe some of the APIs, but not syntax at all. I would consider Python an ideal language for HS students to learn. The teacher who hosts our KPLUG meetings has had good luck using Python in her classes. Brian - -- - ---[Office 67.9F]--[Outside 49.1F]--[Server 104.7F]--[Coaster 67.1F]--- - ---[ KLAHOWYA WSF (366773110) @ 47 31.2076 -122 27.2249 ]--- Software, Linux, Microcontrollers http://www.brianlane.com AIS Parser SDKhttp://www.aisparser.com Movie Landmarks Search Enginehttp://www.movielandmarks.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Remember Lexington Green! iD8DBQFH5VWZIftj/pcSws0RAoouAJ45UaRYDxwjwNLC8KblaFfyEKz3kACfeeWV XREAe/+tjyYuTVZOrNtaObE= =9h+S -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? It's at least pretty good. It's not ideal, but nothing ever is. What I mean is: it's the best suggestion I can think of, but I can't say with confidence that there's nothing better out there. Alternatives would probably be more esoteric languages like Logo. Chris Okasaki (of functional data structures fame) has an interesting blog post about why indentation-based structuring is a big help for teaching: http://okasaki.blogspot.com/2008/02/in-praise-of-mandatory-indentation-for.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 7:00 pm, Larry Bates [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jmDesktop wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. ABSOLUTELY. Get them started with a REAL programming language that will teach them proper fundamentals. I wish Python would have been around 25 years ago when I taught incoming Freshmen at local University. To get students to understand about variable references, etc. I always started them with Assembler so they could understand what was actually going on. I see so may on this forum that have the wrong ideas about variable names/ storage. It's funny, 25 years ago - I was 10 then - I got my first computer from my cousin (a Sinclair ZX81, I think it had a different name in the US) as he was getting a brand new C64. In those days BASIC was very slow so if you wanted to do anything demanding with a computer you had to learn 'machine language' (I didn't have an assembler...). I wrote my little programs in a notebook, then POKEd them into memory! I learnt so much then. Years later, when I got my first C compiler, it was a liberation. My other 'coming of age' was when I took a lambda-calculus course at university. I felt like a man who's had a black and white TV set all his life and watches colour TV for the first time. What if computers had been designed as 'lambda-calculus machines' from the start rather than Turing machines? Anyway, here the conclusion that I draw: learn lambda-calculus and Turing machines. The rest is syntactic sugar. Not quite seriously but still'ly yours -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
Arnaud Delobelle wrote: Anyway, here the conclusion that I draw: learn lambda-calculus and Turing machines. The rest is syntactic sugar. How is the lambda-calculus fundamentally different from Turing machine-based implementations? I've been learning a fair amount about functional programming recently, mostly because compile-time C++ turns out to be a pure functional programming language. Where should I go for a solid grounding in lambda-calculus? Also, despite reassurances to the contrary, I still get the impression that there is a strong anti-lambda sentiment among the Python in crowd. Is it just a question of the word lambda, as opposed to perceived cleaner syntax? http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=98196 http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0290/#replacing-common-uses-of-lambda -- Said the Rabbi Hillel, All the rest is commentary. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 12:40 pm, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. Absolutely. I love using Python in the real world but it is fantastic for beginning programmers. Python enforces good habits and presents many opportunities to discuss programming from an academic perspective. Why does Python not have a switch or until statement? Why are very common objects (stack, queue, linked list) not builtin? etc. I have seen 14 and 15 year old students who have never done any programming begin to write real object oriented programs after 60 hours or so of classroom instruction. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 3:34 pm, bsoist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 22, 12:40 pm, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. Absolutely. I love using Python in the real world but it is fantastic for beginning programmers. Python enforces good habits and presents many opportunities to discuss programming from an academic perspective. Why does Python not have a switch or until statement? Why are very common objects (stack, queue, linked list) not builtin? etc. Beginning programmers in grades 9-12 are not going to understand issues like that, and it would be a mistake to try and introduce them. Beginning programmers should be concentrating their efforts on learning the syntax of a language and basic constructs like for-loops and if statements. They will begin by writing simple hello world style programs, and as their basic skills improve, the programs will get a little more complex and require some more thought and some math to solve the problems presented to them. String formatting should probably be introduced to help with formatting the output. That is about as far as things are going to go. Terms like Touring machines and lambda-calculus are not going to be mentioned anywhere in the course of study. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 11:40 am, jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. Thank you. I absolutely support Python as a first programming language, from 7th grade on up. Here is a link at the main Python web site that should give you a number of additional resources: http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/ -- Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On 22 Mar, 23:42, 7stud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beginning programmers in grades 9-12 are not going to understand issues like that, and it would be a mistake to try and introduce them. Beginning programmers should be concentrating their efforts on learning the syntax of a language and basic constructs like for-loops and if statements. Yes. And because Python is a scripting language one does not even have to introduce functions to demonstrate this. Students can play with loops, datatypes, operators, assignments, and conditionals, without being confused by higher level constructs like functions and classes. Python is one of very few languages that allow that. If you e.g. start to teach programming with with Java, students are from the start faced with confusing constructs like classes and public static methods if they are to try out anything on their own. With Python, higher level constructs can be gradually introduced. That has a tremendous pedagogical value. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:11:51 -0700, sturlamolden wrote: On 22 Mar, 23:42, 7stud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beginning programmers in grades 9-12 are not going to understand issues like that, and it would be a mistake to try and introduce them. Beginning programmers should be concentrating their efforts on learning the syntax of a language and basic constructs like for-loops and if statements. Yes. And because Python is a scripting language Python is a programming language. It can be used for scripting, but that's not all it can do. Describing it as a scripting language is like describing a fully-equipped professional kitchen as a left-over warming room. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
jmDesktop [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For students 9th - 12th grade, with at least Algebra I. Do you think Python is a good first programming language for someone with zero programming experience? Using Linux and Python for first exposure to programming languages and principles. I guess I should ask what is being taught and what the interests of the students are. I.e. is it a programming class for students interested in programming? If yes, then sure, why not Python. If not, then hmmm. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
Jeff Schwab [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've been learning a fair amount about functional programming recently, mostly because compile-time C++ turns out to be a pure functional programming language. Where should I go for a solid grounding in lambda-calculus? For PL theory in general, try this: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/plbook/book.pdf -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Do any of you recommend Python as a first programming language?
On Mar 22, 11:29�pm, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] cybersource.com.au wrote: On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 21:11:51 -0700, sturlamolden wrote: On 22 Mar, 23:42, 7stud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Beginning programmers in grades 9-12 are not going to understand issues like that, and it would be a mistake to try and introduce them. Beginning programmers should be concentrating their efforts on learning the syntax of a language and basic constructs like for-loops and if statements. Yes. And because Python is a scripting language Python is a programming language. It can be used for scripting, but that's not all it can do. Describing it as a scripting language is like describing a fully-equipped professional kitchen as a left-over warming room. Sure, but then again, some are chefs, others merely cooks and yet others just warm leftovers. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
