Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On 22/02/2013 19:21, Ian Kelly wrote: . Indeed, it seems to me that this is basically Richard Dawkins' weasel program, with the addition of a transformation step in the fitness function that amounts to running the string through a Brainfuck interpreter. There is a rather large gap between this and getting computers to generate programs that do anything interesting. .. this has been done before over and over eg http://www.ooblick.com/software/evolve/ http://hampshire.edu/lspector/push.html I think if the OP could get his brainf*ck algorithm to produce a self printing program in brainf*ck that would be quite amusing, but for real advances I suggest he makes it generate itself. His fitness is fairly silly since it has no idea of fitness except success; minimizing the cpu/memory/program length etc etc are all additional measures that could be added/used. -- Robin Becker -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
FYI: AI-programmer
Here is something interesting that you pythonistas might be interested in: http://www.primaryobjects.com/CMS/Article149.aspx This article describes an experiment to produce an AI program, capable of developing its own programs, using a genetic algorithm implementation with self-modifying and self-improving code. The above experimental BrainF** language was written using C#. So who will be the first to make an AI-language in Python that generates it's own program? --gv -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
Gisle Vanem gva...@broadpark.no wrote: Here is something interesting that you pythonistas might be interested in: http://www.primaryobjects.com/CMS/Article149.aspx This article describes an experiment to produce an AI program, capable of developing its own programs, using a genetic algorithm implementation with self-modifying and self-improving code. The above experimental BrainF** language was written using C#. So who will be the first to make an AI-language in Python that generates it's own program? We already have a Python interpreter written in Python that (in most cases) runs faster than the original, which is pretty much the same thing. All it needs is a bit of AI stuck on to critique the code and complain about the weather and you're done. -- Duncan Booth -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Gisle Vanem gva...@broadpark.no wrote: Here is something interesting that you pythonistas might be interested in: http://www.primaryobjects.com/CMS/Article149.aspx This article describes an experiment to produce an AI program, capable of developing its own programs, using a genetic algorithm implementation with self-modifying and self-improving code. The above experimental BrainF** language was written using C#. So who will be the first to make an AI-language in Python that generates it's own program? That's not artificial intelligence, though. It's artificial program generation based on a known target output. The Fitness calculation is based on a specific target string. This is fine for devising a program that will produce the entire works of Shakespeare, since there is a target string for that (actually, several targets, plus you have to work out whether you want the works of Shakespeare or the works of some guy named Bacon... mmm bacon), but I suggest that a more sophisticated and useful goal be implemented. As suggested in RFC 2795 [1], the resources required to implement such a project would also have other uses. Like the Infinite Improbability Drive, this is power that we should put to a very practical use... such as ending world poverty, curing disease, or most importantly, writing a good situation comedy for television. [4] This program generation technique is highly superior to the technique of taking a number of highly paid programmers, supplying them with coffee and Internets, and expecting them to produce the code you want. Empirical evidence has shown repeatedly that highly paid programmers will produce bugs, and entire programming subindustries exist to manage these bugs; instead, use of virtualized monkeys running on innumerable cores of a massively parallel system (note, incidentally, that RFC 2795 was careful specifically to not preclude implementations involving subatomic monkeys or multiple universes - I'm sure virtualization is one of those, but I'm not sure which), with consequent massive increase of throughput and output. Please proceed with this implementation, but do keep RFC 2795 in mind. You want to remain interoperable, which means following the standards. ChrisA [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2795 [4] The author of RFC 2795 was unable to find a reference in any issue of TV Guide published between 1956 and the date of that document. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: That's not artificial intelligence, though. It's artificial program generation based on a known target output. The Fitness calculation is based on a specific target string. This is fine for devising a program that will produce the entire works of Shakespeare, since there You mean, art generation (writing Shakespearian texts) is a process of generating known target output?. If we talk about good art (not kitch), I disagree. For reference, Infinite Monkey Teorem is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem Disregarding the probability math in the above, the question IMHO boils down to whether art can be produced by accident (quote from above). I seems to recall elephant painting selling for lots of dollars some years ago. And long dull poems written by computers. Fooled a lot of people. As suggested in RFC 2795 [1], the resources required to implement such a project would also have other uses. Like the Infinite Improbability Drive, I did notice that RFC was written on 1 April 2000 :-) --gv -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On 2013-02-22, Gisle Vanem gva...@broadpark.no wrote: Disregarding the probability math in the above, the question IMHO boils down to whether art can be produced by accident (quote from above). I seems to recall elephant painting selling for lots of dollars some years ago. And long dull poems written by computers. Fooled a lot of people. The painting elephants are trained to paint basically the same painting over and over. There's not much chance involved. -- Neil Cerutti -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: That's not artificial intelligence, though. It's artificial program generation based on a known target output. The Fitness calculation is based on a specific target string. This is fine for devising a program that will produce the entire works of Shakespeare, since there is a target string for that (actually, several targets, plus you have to work out whether you want the works of Shakespeare or the works of some guy named Bacon... mmm bacon), but I suggest that a more sophisticated and useful goal be implemented. Indeed, it seems to me that this is basically Richard Dawkins' weasel program, with the addition of a transformation step in the fitness function that amounts to running the string through a Brainfuck interpreter. There is a rather large gap between this and getting computers to generate programs that do anything interesting. I am curious about how he deals with infinite loops in the generated programs. Probably he just kills the threads after they pass some time threshold? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On 02/22/2013 07:21 PM, Ian Kelly wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: That's not artificial intelligence, though. It's artificial program generation based on a known target output. The Fitness calculation is based on a specific target string. This is fine for devising a program that will produce the entire works of Shakespeare, since there is a target string for that (actually, several targets, plus you have to work out whether you want the works of Shakespeare or the works of some guy named Bacon... mmm bacon), but I suggest that a more sophisticated and useful goal be implemented. Indeed, it seems to me that this is basically Richard Dawkins' weasel program, with the addition of a transformation step in the fitness function that amounts to running the string through a Brainfuck interpreter. There is a rather large gap between this and getting computers to generate programs that do anything interesting. I am curious about how he deals with infinite loops in the generated programs. Probably he just kills the threads after they pass some time threshold? I'm under the impression that Python doesn't really allow you to kill a thread after a time period. It's not portable to do so http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2011/08/22/how-not-to-set-a-timeout-on-a-computation-in-python/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Andrew Robinson andr...@r3dsolutions.com wrote: On 02/22/2013 07:21 PM, Ian Kelly wrote: I am curious about how he deals with infinite loops in the generated programs. Probably he just kills the threads after they pass some time threshold? I'm under the impression that Python doesn't really allow you to kill a thread after a time period. It's not portable to do so He's using C#, not Python. And anyway, you can cooperatively request threads to shut down; just have the Brainfuck interpreter thread check for a shutdown request every N cycles, or even just place the timeout in the interpreter thread itself. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On 02/22/2013 08:23 PM, Ian Kelly wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Andrew Robinson andr...@r3dsolutions.com wrote: On 02/22/2013 07:21 PM, Ian Kelly wrote: I am curious about how he deals with infinite loops in the generated programs. Probably he just kills the threads after they pass some time threshold? I'm under the impression that Python doesn't really allow you to kill a thread after a time period. It's not portable to do so He's using C#, not Python. And anyway, you can cooperatively request threads to shut down; just have the Brainfuck interpreter thread check for a shutdown request every N cycles, or even just place the timeout in the interpreter thread itself. - 1st) It's still surprising that even C# would allow a killing of threads. Resources can be allocated by a thread and tied up was one of the comments made on the site I linked; so those resources could be permanently tied up until process exit if the thread is killed. eg: killing a thread is different from killing the process it is running in. I'm not familiar enough with C# to know if it does garbage collection or not, or how de-allocation is handled; so perhaps I missed something. -- 2nd) How would you get an interpreter thread to check for a shutdown request every N cycles? I've read about how to set a timeout based on time, but not on any kind of cycle (eg: instruction cycle?) count. Do you have a python example? Thanks! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Andrew Robinson andr...@r3dsolutions.com wrote: It's still surprising that even C# would allow a killing of threads. Resources can be allocated by a thread and tied up was one of the comments made on the site I linked; so those resources could be permanently tied up until process exit if the thread is killed. eg: killing a thread is different from killing the process it is running in. I'm not familiar enough with C# to know if it does garbage collection or not, or how de-allocation is handled; so perhaps I missed something. I have no idea where C# stands on forced thread termination. I only pointed out that it was C# because you specifically referred to Python. How would you get an interpreter thread to check for a shutdown request every N cycles? I've read about how to set a timeout based on time, but not on any kind of cycle (eg: instruction cycle?) count. A cycle here would be the execution of one Brainfuck instruction. The control loop would look something like this: while True: if shutdown_event.is_set(): break for i in range(N): interpreter.cycle() -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: FYI: AI-programmer
On 22 February 2013 13:04, Andrew Robinson andr...@r3dsolutions.com wrote: How would you get an interpreter thread to check for a shutdown request every N cycles? I've read about how to set a timeout based on time, but not on any kind of cycle (eg: instruction cycle?) count. Do you have a python example? while True: for n in range(N): if process_cycle() == END: return if shutdown(): raise ShutDownError Oscar -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
