Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of [...] As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return the favor.) [...] Xah Lee wrote: [...] I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement) http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/25618913752c457a . -- http://lazaridis.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Ilias Lazaridis wrote: Xah Lee wrote: for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return the favor.) 80 Gb/month ? He intends to write a lot of spam. DG -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
On Tuesday 30 May 2006 10:36, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. Dear John, Should I ask myself the question about Xah first, or work on my spelling? I knew har*ass it had 1 or more r's in it but I couldn't figure out the exact number. That makes me suspect my spelling is good enough and I should dive right into the Xah issue. What do you think John? I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are still my favorite newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this Xah fellow, but you know that is just silly, don't you? Yours truly Immanuel P.S Do not hesitate to comment on form, spelling or style of this message. I am always eager to learn. Immanuel, The guy cross-posts wildly off-topic posts as a flimsy pretext on which to plaster advertisements for his website. That's even if you don't consider the posts themselves drivel. He starts flame wars, or just maildrops and doesn't respond. He does so despite the way he does it being impolite, probably in violation of every TOS he crosses, and inconsiderate to those of us who just want to use the newsgroup. If you want to waste your time on mounting a tenacious defence of that, good luck to you, but consider the possibility that you may be wrong. Of course we can ignore the guy - I'm sure many do without giving it further thought, but being able to ignore a transgression or discourtesy doesn't magically mean the person isn't doing it does it? As for all this specious nonsense about freedom of speech - every organised forum for discussion has some level of regulation, varying from taking turns speaking, to staying a certain distance from the opposition, to wearing the appropriate hat, to not physically hitting your colleagues. To confuse that simple and civilised thing with some desire to *stifle* opinion or basic freedoms would be a little childish, wouldn't it? Isn't it just people wanting to use this resource as a place to discuss the topics at hand, without loads and loads of noise and cynical advertising at our expense? Cheers, Ten PS: Nice to see Godwin's ticking over nicely these days. :) -- There are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of me. I'm sorry to say, it looks like they will be killing my account anyhow. I have exchanged a couple letters with the guy at my web host and he is not changing the decision. Of this thread, i think 2/3 or 3/4 supported my view that this constitutes a harassment and the canceling of my account is not right, even if some disliked my writings. However, there are a few who has made accusations because of my alleged “spam” or “abuse” of newsgroups. I've been considering of writing a single essay to reply or explain these wrongful accusations. Or, perhaps these people prefer me to write short replies at quantity as they do, so that i'm “in the community” or “not using newsgroups as a blog”. In my opinion, making multiple short, fast replies is one problem that plagues and perpetuates the newsgroups nature of drivels and brainlessness. Most people who have problem with me simply because i sound cocky and do not bow to them. Another point i'd like to make, is about cross-posting. Tech geekers, due to their pissing male nature, often turns a cross-posted messages to a flamewar if the message contained any slight possibility of being perceived as sensitive. (students in fact constitute a significant portion, if not majority, of the newsgroup demograph) The problem isn't cross-posting itself, but the tech geekers themselves. As Steve Yegge has pointed out in his essay “Software Needs Philosophers”, that languages and its people are full of religious hot-air. And, computing languages and its people, are forever ignorant and blindly fanatical of their own and attack outsiders. When i learned Python in 2005, i thought it is a great language that remedies the problems created by the Perl cult. But as i realized, the Python people are as militant, poor in knowledge, and in fact ignorant of computer languages and constantly propagandize their own and attack others. The point i want to make here, is that the taboo of cross-posting is in fact a contributor to this problem. Most languages stay blindly in their own community, oblivious to the nature or facts of computing languages outside of their world. If there are more relevant cross-posting, then this problem can be lessened. I have in fact already composed 7 replies to some the accusers of my alleged abuse of newsgroups. If people like me to post them as a remedy of me “using newsgroups like a personal blog”, i'd be happy to. As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return the favor.) Thanks. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ Xah Lee wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, but this is newsgroup incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it. I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of me. I'm sorry to say, it looks like they will be killing my account anyhow. [...] I'm sorry to see you go for now Xah, but I'll be doubly happy to see your return :) Dreamhost isn't the only hosting company. There are smarter hosting companies that are able to see harassment for what it is. I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. Thank you and bye for a couple of weeks :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
On 31 May 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most languages stay blindly in their own community, oblivious to the nature or facts of computing languages outside of their world. If there are more relevant cross-posting, then this problem can be lessened. (cross-posted to c.l.perl.misc and c.l.python only because they are named in Xah Lee's discourse) That's interesting. So to correct the attitude of several communities *you* believe are insular and opinionated (most people would disagree with you, but that's besides the point) you took it upon yourself to cross-post your thoughts to all those communities. Do you really believe this is ethically correct? (I'm sure you believe it's morally correct, but that's also besides the point. I hope you at least understand the difference between morals and ethics, and which of the two apply when you deal with a community.) You mention philosophers, cooperation, and open-mindedness. You also use loaded terms like hot air, brainlessness, call Python people militant and poor in knowledge, and name a Perl cult. I hope you see how this is at best inconsistent (I would call it hypocritical), and makes you and your postings unwelcome with the communities you've peppered with your opinions. Ted -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling? -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science Phone: +45 66 11 84 94 Mobile: +45 29 93 42 96 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Max M wrote: John Bokma wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling? Nope. Oxford English Dictionary has: alright a frequent spelling of all right. And Merriam-Webster has: alright Pronunciation: ()ol-'rIt, 'ol- Function: adverb or adjective : ALL RIGHT usage The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but remains in common use especially in journalistic and business publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used occasionally in other writing the first two years of medical school were alright -- Gertrude Stein. DS -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. Dear John, Should I ask myself the question about Xah first, or work on my spelling? I knew har*ass it had 1 or more r's in it but I couldn't figure out the exact number. That makes me suspect my spelling is good enough and I should dive right into the Xah issue. What do you think John? I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are still my favorite newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this Xah fellow, but you know that is just silly, don't you? Yours truly Immanuel P.S Do not hesitate to comment on form, spelling or style of this message. I am always eager to learn. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Max M wrote: John Bokma wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling? I'm glad you caught the usage error and another fine example of Bokma hypocrisy. People need to point it out because Bokma's hypocrisy is invisible to him. :) Xah's posting on-topic messages to 5 newsgroups about two times per week isn't harassment, but Bokma's attempts to cut off Xah *are*. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
David Squire wrote: Max M wrote: John Bokma wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling? Nope. Oxford English Dictionary has: alright a frequent spelling of all right. And Merriam-Webster has: alright Pronunciation: ()ol-'rIt, 'ol- Function: adverb or adjective : ALL RIGHT usage The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but remains in common use especially in journalistic and business publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used occasionally in other writing the first two years of medical school were alright -- Gertrude Stein. DS American Heritage Dictionary: Usage Note: [...] one who uses alright, especially in formal writing, runs the risk that readers may view it as an error or as the willing breaking of convention. That's sounds kinda like what Xah does, and that's why I flag it as hypocrisy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Max M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling? http://www.answers.com/alright http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?tname=all-right :-D -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are still my favorite newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this Xah fellow, but Funny that someone diagnosing insecurity needs to refer to Nazi's in an attempt to promote a feeling. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Quote ? [was: John Bokma harassment]
Chris Uppal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Where does that come from ? It sounds like a quote, and Navarth is a Jack Vance name (and /what/ a character), but I don't remember the rest of it occurring in Vance. Trullion: Alastor 2262, a planet with a collectivist, sort-of-communist government, a huge population, and a crumbling infrastructure -- 'gruff' and 'deedle' are sweet desserts much loved by the population. I think all three of the Alastor novels have been collected in a single volume... [click click click...] Yep, ISBN 0312869525. Classic Jack Vance, and well worth reading. -- Walt -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it., but that was of course the age of enlightenment. Obviously this wisdom is getting stale and should be updated to something like There is so much noise we can't hear each other, but I will defend to the death a chance to get heard for whatever you might have to say that's intelligent (while not necessarily from your own mouth). Besides, it is not clear that Voltaire really said that. Cheers, BB -- python filter(lambda W : W not in 'ILLITERATE','BULLSHIT') -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
There is so much noise we can't hear each other, but I will defend to the death a chance to get heard for whatever you might have to say that's intelligent (while not necessarily from your own mouth). You write a much cooler quote! Besides, it is not clear that Voltaire really said that. No? well I guess it's alright to harrass Xah then. Immanuel Litzroth -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Boris Borcic wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it., but that was of course the age of enlightenment. Obviously this wisdom is getting stale and should be updated to something like There is so much noise we can't hear each other, but I will defend to the death a chance to get heard for whatever you might have to say that's intelligent (while not necessarily from your own mouth). But we might not have enough intelligence to decide what is intelligent and what is not. :-) Besides, it is not clear that Voltaire really said that. Cheers, BB -- python filter(lambda W : W not in 'ILLITERATE','BULLSHIT') -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is so much noise we can't hear each other, but I will defend to the death a chance to get heard for whatever you might have to say that's intelligent (while not necessarily from your own mouth). You write a much cooler quote! Besides, it is not clear that Voltaire really said that. No? well I guess it's alright to harrass Xah then. Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5 newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
I can't see the way how Xah Lee could be on topic in comp.lang.java.programmer. He is not a programmer, and does not write about neither programming nor Java. He should stick to philosophy and advocacy groups. DG -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Steve Holden wrote: .. I too wrote to XL's hosting company pointing out that while he might be an irritant he wasn't particularly abusive. Bokma, on the other hand, can be. I don't like either of them much, but at least Xah Lee insults everyone while Bokma appears to resort to ad hominem attacks frequently. It seems strange to me that XL gets such a bad rep. It takes at least two to make a flame war/troll work so why do others jump in with both feet. It's like many approaches to narcotics control ie try to stem the source, the proper approach is to halt the demand. Just stay silent. Trying to call XL a net abuser is just silly and wrong. Many people have ideas which others consider wrong, blasphemous, dangerous, stupid etc etc etc, but freedom of expression is important. -- Robin Becker -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
In comp.lang.perl.misc Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote All that I snipped is your opinion, which is yours to do with as you please. I like it just the way it is. is *MY* opinion, so please don't try to change it. I think I know my opinion best. Wrong. You don't like it how it is. Because as it is now, if someone acts irresponsible for his own actions, his ISP might get an abuse message and might act on that. You want it to follow you own personal moral standards that you feel are being hurt by the usenet as it is. And as for setting it to reply to only you, I changed that back. I don't think you censoring (redirecting) other peoples replies/opinions serves the purpose of this thread well. It's certanily not speaking for you that you compare that and abuse messages to censorship. It mostly seems like you try to make an argument by acting emtionally. Won't do. p -- The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal. -- Aleister Crowley -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Fred Gilham wrote: BTW, one time I tried a little social engineering to get rid of an irrelevant cross-posted thread. I replied to the messages in the thread (an irrelevant political thread posted in rec.audio.tubes) with (somewhat) inflammatory replies but deleted my newsgroup from the follow-up line. I kept doing this for a day or two to every message that showed up in rec.audio.tubes. The result was that the threads actually died out pretty fast in that newsgroup. Clever idea. Evil, but clever ;-) -- chris -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
OT: Quote ? [was: John Bokma harassment]
[apologies to the whole flaming crowd for sending this to the whole flaming crowd...] Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Where does that come from ? It sounds like a quote, and Navarth is a Jack Vance name (and /what/ a character), but I don't remember the rest of it occurring in Vance. -- chris -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: John Bokma harassment
From: John Bokma dreamhost has made a decission, a right one IMO. And now you ask people to harass them more? You really are just a pathetic little shit now aren't you? Not even the balls nor the guts to fix the issue that you are. Using language like this clearly shows who has a communication problem... Please use decent language or shut up - Sander -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Robert Sedlacek wrote: In comp.lang.perl.misc Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote All that I snipped is your opinion, which is yours to do with as you please. I like it just the way it is. is *MY* opinion, so please don't try to change it. I think I know my opinion best. Wrong. You don't like it how it is. Because as it is now, if someone acts irresponsible for his own actions, his ISP might get an abuse message and might act on that. [...] To suggest that Xah's *on-topic* posts to *five* newsgroups is irresponsible is ludicrous. In this newsgroup, there's a message crossposted to about a dozen newsgroups with a subject of teen sister peeing outside. This message contains a trojan. *That*'s an example of an irresponsible message. Xah's posts are not. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT: Quote ? [was: John Bokma harassment]
Chris Uppal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [apologies to the whole flaming crowd for sending this to the whole flaming crowd...] Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Where does that come from ? It sounds like a quote, and Navarth is a Jack Vance name (and /what/ a character), but I don't remember the rest of it occurring in Vance. Navarth is very present in the palace of dreams (Demon princes series) The gruff, deedle and wobbly is mentioned IIRC in Wyst (Alastor 1716), but not sure about it. IIRC it's all you need in the egalistic world of Wyst. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Felts) wrote: Count me among the clueless, then. I just wrote to DreamHost and asked that they reverse their decision to terminate his account. I am sure that DreamHost has quite a nice /dev/null for clueless idiots like you and your sock puppets :-D. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html John Bokma not following netiquette. Killfiled. If I can find out how to report this to the relevant ISP I will do so. Frank -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT: Quote ? [was: John Bokma harassment]
John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Chris Uppal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [apologies to the whole flaming crowd for sending this to the whole flaming crowd...] Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Where does that come from ? It sounds like a quote, and Navarth is a Jack Vance name (and /what/ a character), but I don't remember the rest of it occurring in Vance. Navarth is very present in the palace of dreams (Demon princes series) Nitpick: _The Palace of Love_ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT: Quote ? [was: John Bokma harassment]
Mike Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Chris Uppal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [apologies to the whole flaming crowd for sending this to the whole flaming crowd...] Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Where does that come from ? It sounds like a quote, and Navarth is a Jack Vance name (and /what/ a character), but I don't remember the rest of it occurring in Vance. Navarth is very present in the palace of dreams (Demon princes series) Nitpick: _The Palace of Love_ Aargh! The only excuse I can give for that huge mistake is that I am currently reading In the net of dreams :-( -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: OT: Quote ? [was: John Bokma harassment]
John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Chris Uppal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [apologies to the whole flaming crowd for sending this to the whole flaming crowd...] Geoffrey Summerhayes wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Where does that come from ? It sounds like a quote, and Navarth is a Jack Vance name (and /what/ a character), but I don't remember the rest of it occurring in Vance. Navarth is very present in the palace of dreams (Demon princes series) Nitpick: _The Palace of Love_ Aargh! The only excuse I can give for that huge mistake is that I am currently reading In the net of dreams :-( You have another excuse in the last Demon Princes title: _The Book of Dreams_. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Mumia W. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mitch wrote: John Bokma wrote: [...] You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am ok with it. Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah. This is no-ones back garden. But it is a place where John Bokma can engage in a little power play. Notice how John Bokma pretends to own these newsgroups. In every analogy, Bokma uses ownership concepts to support his harassment of Xah. John Bokma conceptualizes these newsgroups as something that he dominates. Without other people to recognize his power, it's empty, so he bashes and then trashes Xah, and in doing so, proves that he is dominant here. Don't let it happen. Write the abuse address at Dreamhost, and try to help Xah out. I agree. I have already written to Dreamhost and I hope more people will do so. I have found some of what has been posted here quite astonishing and the actions of certain people to be reprehensible: by far the most serious violation of netiquette I see here is this thoroughly wrong-headed campaign to try to censor Xah by appealing to his service provider. In my opinion it is that, not anything Xah has done, which comes any where near deserving any sort of termination of access to the Internet. Since Xah's website is hosted by Dreamhost, the unwarranted censorship will be compounded by an act of gratuitous vandalism, potentially depriving people of useful resources: http://online.redwoods.cc.ca.us/instruct/darnold/CalcProj/Index.htm Paul. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
P.L.Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree. I have already written to Dreamhost and I hope more people will do so. I have found some of what has been posted here quite astonishing and the actions of certain people to be reprehensible: by far the most serious violation of netiquette I see here is this thoroughly wrong-headed campaign to try to censor Xah by appealing to his service provider. No one that I know of is trying to censor Xah. It's the form his postings take that cause problems, not the content. In my opinion it is that, not anything Xah has done, which comes any where near deserving any sort of termination of access to the Internet. Bringing facts to their attention? If Dreamhost has given him notice of termination, it's for violating their policies, not because people have told them I don't like him. Since Xah's website is hosted by Dreamhost, the unwarranted censorship will be compounded by an act of gratuitous vandalism, potentially depriving people of useful resources: He's free to find another ISP and *not* violate their rules. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who reads blogs? They're well known for housing crackpots far worse than Xah, and I estimate he doesn't want to associate himself with that sort. Yup, he seems to be quite happy as a Usenet Kook An area in which you appear to be pretty expert. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Mike Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: P.L.Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree. I have already written to Dreamhost and I hope more people will do so. I have found some of what has been posted here quite astonishing and the actions of certain people to be reprehensible: by far the most serious violation of netiquette I see here is this thoroughly wrong-headed campaign to try to censor Xah by appealing to his service provider. No one that I know of is trying to censor Xah. It's the form his postings take that cause problems, not the content. Having read through the threads in question, I cannot agree on either point. If form alone had been the problem, Xah's sporadic cross-posting to a handful of related newsgroups would presumably be the sole cause for complaint and yet that hardly seems to me to justify complaining to his ISP or to Google, let alone to his _web_hosting company. But that is not what has happened anyway: complainers have referred to Xah's posts as being off-topic - in some cases, drivel and rants - an opinion not shared by many more than half those who have posted to the threads. Fair enough - one is entitled to one's opinion - but it would be a mischaracterisation of what the complainers have actually written in their posts and have claimed to have written in their complaints to Dreamhost to say that form alone has been the issue. If you believe that what Xah has done was such a serious breach of netiquette and caused such serious problems that the appropriate course of action was to demand that his ISP and even his website host deny him access to the Internet, then having done so would not, strictly speaking, have been an attempt to censor Xah. But to maintain such a premise is, as others have opined, rather eccentric and overblown and if those who have written complaints about Xah to his ISP or to his website host have not deliberately meant to censor him, that is beside the point and no good reason to support their actions. I find it rather difficult anyway to believe that there is no deliberate attempt at censorship in the light of threads such as this one: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.perl.misc/browse_frm/thread/8fec378b74263f25/29458dc7da626a27?lnk=stq=Bokma+Xah+Leernum=3#29458dc7da626a27 I rather account kill by ISP :-D. In my opinion it is that, not anything Xah has done, which comes any where near deserving any sort of termination of access to the Internet. Bringing facts to their attention? If Dreamhost has given him notice of termination, it's for violating their policies, not because people have told them I don't like him. Exactly. Such underhand and manipulative behaviour is what makes this whole business so distasteful and why I find the actions of those who have tried to remedy perceived 'problems' in this way quite despicable. Since Xah's website is hosted by Dreamhost, the unwarranted censorship will be compounded by an act of gratuitous vandalism, potentially depriving people of useful resources: He's free to find another ISP and *not* violate their rules. Oh! Well that's okay then. Paul. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Not at all. My problem with Xah Lee is that he is abusing the Usenet as a personal BLOG. He has a web site to post these articles and he can certainly put up a discussion board there if he wants a vigorous discussion of his ideas. It's worse. He does not even respond to questions directly posed to him in the thread of his articles. Just imagine if every blogger on the Internet started using Usenet instead and cross-posting at that. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John Bokma wrote: Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [...] You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am ok with it. Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah. This is no-ones back garden. Funny how people who always think they can change Usenet have no clue about what Usenet is and how it works in the first place. Who said anything about changing it? I like it just the way it is. Usenet is just that, each server participating can be thought of as being the back yard of the news master. Sure, each server has terms and conditions that apply, doesn't mean you should be able to ban people from speaking just because you don't like what they say. My point is that this isn't *your* back garden, it isn't *my* back garden. It isn't something I own, and it *IS* something I can filter and/or ignore. Someone shouting in your back garden is a whole different ball game where your desires prevail. Not here. You know what you are getting into when you sign in, and it is your responsibility to deal with those you don't agree with personally. I understand you consider his writings spam, and so can see why you have reported him. All I'm saying is that as long as the articles are remotely on topic, I believe he has a right to post his opinions here. If you have no clue about how Usenet works, first read up a bit. What a Usenet server is, a feed, and how Usenet is distributed. And then come back if you finally have something to say that you can back up. Thankfully I'm aware enough of all the above that I don't feel the need. As these are all opinions, I don't see any need to back up any of it. Personally, I think this is getting a bit out of hand. Originally, John and others suggested reporting Xah to his ISP for spamming multiple groups. There was never any suggestion I have seen (except from Xah himself) that the objective was to gag his contraversial thoughts/comments/ideas. I have no problem with him posting comments which are relevant to the group he posts to. However, I do object to anyone who has the arrogance to believe their opinions are so important they should be posted to any remotely related group they can think of. I don't agree with nearly 99% of what Xah says - he often raises a well known issue (i've not seen anything original yet), outlines it reasonably well, but then proposes solutions which strike me as being very poorly considered or narrow of thought. He also tends to look at something for a couple of days and then rubbish it with a tone of authority and experience he obviously hasn't yet obtained. However, he has just as much right to do so as anyone else and therefore, its not because of his content he should be reported - its because of his irresponsability in how he distributes it. I also seem to remember a page on his website from a couple of years back in which he admits enjoying trolling and starting flame wars - but I can't find it now, so maybe I'm mistaken. However, I suspect this is the main motivation for his posts rather than a genuine desire to solve problems he perceives. At any rate, its not like he hasn't been told his constant behavior of mass cross posting was considered bad form - he has been told many many times and just ignores it. If someone wrote up there essays and got them printed on millions of leaflets which they then dumped all over the place, would you be outraged when they were fined for littering and claim their right to free speech was being gagged? Of course not. This is the same. I think most would have no problem with Xah posting if he did it in a responsible manner. Note that normally I try to remove all the cross posted groups in replies to Xah's thread, but this time, I'm leaving them as I feel the nature of this thread warrants it. If you disagree, please don't hesitate to report me to my ISP as I'm more than willing to defend my decision. If I lose, there not an ISP I'd want to stay with anyway! Tim -- tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Mitch wrote: Sure, each server has terms and conditions that apply, doesn't mean you should be able to ban people from speaking just because you don't like what they say. You are a silly person. BugBear -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tim X [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also seem to remember a page on his website from a couple of years back in which he admits enjoying trolling and starting flame wars - but I can't find it now, so maybe I'm mistaken. http://web.archive.org/web/20050204172641/www.xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/troll.html big -- Everything you love, everything meaningful with depth and history, all passionate authentic experiences will be appropriated, mishandled, watered down, cheapened, repackaged, marketed and sold to the people you hate. Mr Jalopy quoting Hooptyrides (on jalopyjunktown.com) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Larry Elmore wrote: No shit. Lately it seems that for every spam post of Xah's, there's at three or more by John *to all the same newsgroups* bitching about Xah's use of bandwidth. Pot, meet kettle. I'm killfiling Xah for being a useless twit and killfiling John for being a prick about it. There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-) Maybe we have the similar case here. DG -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Draen Gemic wrote: Larry Elmore wrote: No shit. Lately it seems that for every spam post of Xah's, there's at three or more by John *to all the same newsgroups* bitching about Xah's use of bandwidth. Pot, meet kettle. I'm killfiling Xah for being a useless twit and killfiling John for being a prick about it. There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-) Sounds like me. In rare moments I believe that I'm not alone on usenet but there are other people as well. I wanted to go to the doctor because I believed I had a multiple personality but than I discovered that the doctor was me too. Kay -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Dra¾en Gemiæ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-) Maybe we have the similar case here. Wouldn't amaze me if some of the buddies of Xah are actually Xah sitting in some Internet cafe, enjoying this troll fest, and already thinking up the next one. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dra¾en Gemiæ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a person on USENET, particularly in hr. hierarchy that posts under three different accounts. Sometimes he argues with himself, and sometimes event supports himself :-) Maybe we have the similar case here. Wouldn't amaze me if some of the buddies of Xah are actually Xah sitting in some Internet cafe, enjoying this troll fest, and already thinking up the next one. That's right, we're all Xah, you're the only other one here. After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? -- Geoff -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Geoffrey Summerhayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Comparing Navarth with Xah is a huge insult to Jack Vance. You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking about it, let alone write it down. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. I'm probably stupid for contributing in this flame fest, but here goes. The reason that I consider Xah a troll and net abuser has little to do with cross-posting (which is still bad) or the length of his messages (he really should post them on his website and provide a summary and a link). My main problem is that he unloads his crap and then runs away. He doesn't participate in any discussion after that. This shows that he has no actual interest in discussion of the issues just in using Usenet as a form of publishing. The mention of free speech was raised. But the fact is that Usenet is not free (as in beer). We all pay for it. Your ISP has to pay for a server, the space for the messages, the bandwidth to download the messages, and the bandwidth to send them to your news reader. In reality the cost is shared among all of us. Therefore you do not have the right to do what you want with Usenet. You have a responsibility to use Usenet in a way that benefits the group as a whole (e.g. asking interesting questions that educate others). -- Dale King -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Robert Boyd wrote: On 24 May 2006 08:29:57 -0700, Rune Strand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can just declare my support. Reading Mr. Bokmas comments below [*] certainly makes my suport stronger. I sent an email in support of Xah, which I wouldn't have bothered to do had I not read the rapid-fire posts from Bokma which were abusive, insulting, and arrogant. Xah's posts often make me roll my eyes, or I skip them, but sometimes (and more so lately) they have been intriguing and foster thought-provoking replies. I'd prefer debate and discussion be fostered, rather than squelched. But what does this clueless sock-puppet know? ;) I too wrote to XL's hosting company pointing out that while he might be an irritant he wasn't particularly abusive. Bokma, on the other hand, can be. I don't like either of them much, but at least Xah Lee insults everyone while Bokma appears to resort to ad hominem attacks frequently. -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Dale King DaleWKing [at]gmail [dot] com writes: Therefore you do not have the right to do what you want with Usenet. You have a responsibility to use Usenet in a way that benefits the group as a whole (e.g. asking interesting questions that educate others). ...or at least, in a way that follows the TOS of your ISP. The problem is that every time Xah posts, there are dozens and maybe even hundreds of postings that get provoked. One might say, Don't feed the troll, but it's clear that this spate of posting happens no matter what anyone says. It happens in every newsgroup I've ever read. It's recognized that trollish behaviour such as cross posting irrelevant messages to many newsgroups causes this response. So instead of whacking dozens or hundreds of people with a clue stick, which is probably the right thing to do but which is impossible, it's better to thrash the one who has actually started it all by violating USENET etiquette in the first place. Xah's postings are occasionally (*very* occasionally) interesting in a warped sort of way, but I would much rather see him post pointers to his web site. It would be even better if he actually figured out the groups his messages were relevant to before posting them. BTW, one time I tried a little social engineering to get rid of an irrelevant cross-posted thread. I replied to the messages in the thread (an irrelevant political thread posted in rec.audio.tubes) with (somewhat) inflammatory replies but deleted my newsgroup from the follow-up line. I kept doing this for a day or two to every message that showed up in rec.audio.tubes. The result was that the threads actually died out pretty fast in that newsgroup. Unfortunately (but understandably) people in the other newsgroups got pretty mad and complained to some authority figure somewhere. The authority figure had no authority over me but was nice about it, so I stopped. I decided my method was a bad idea. Or rather, a good idea but dangerous. :-) -- Fred Gilham [EMAIL PROTECTED] ``This is mere entertainment featuring fictional characters. No real human relationships were shattered in the making of this TV series.'' -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Geoffrey Summerhayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Comparing Navarth with Xah is a huge insult to Jack Vance. You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking about it, let alone write it down. Mr. Vance is too intelligent to be insulted by this. OTOH, Mad Navarth is free to be as insulted as much as his fictional soul will allow. :) -- Geoff -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Kay Schluehr wrote: Sounds like me. In rare moments I believe that I'm not alone on usenet but there are other people as well. I wanted to go to the doctor because I believed I had a multiple personality but than I discovered that the doctor was me too. That's bad, because all of you must be in different shifts, so you never meet each other in person. DG -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
OT: Navarth (was Re: John Bokma harassment)
Geoffrey Summerhayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Geoffrey Summerhayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After you kill Navarth, will it be nothing but gruff and deedle with a little wobbly to fill in the chinks? Comparing Navarth with Xah is a huge insult to Jack Vance. You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking about it, let alone write it down. Mr. Vance is too intelligent to be insulted by this. OTOH he changed Wankh to Wannek. [1] OTOH, Mad Navarth is free to be as insulted as much as his fictional soul will allow. :) One can only wonder what he would say, but if it comes out in print, I will buy it and read it and probably enjoy it. [1] http://starling.us/wankh_vs_wannek.html -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
John Bokma harassment
I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, but this is newsgroup incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it. I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. It's not simply harassment if your ISP considers it a TOS violation. You did something, it was reported to your ISP, your ISP considered it a violation of their TOS, were warned, failed to comply and continued doing it, and now are suffering the consequences. Should this really be any surprise to you? This has nothing to do with whether you feel that the complaint or the judgement against you was right -- this has happened before; this is familiar territory for you. If you do something, your ISP tells you not to do it anymore, and then you continue doing it, why should you be surprised at the inevitable outcome? (I'm impressed they're giving you a 30-day notice, quite frankly ... I'm sure you'll take advantage of it.) I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, but this is newsgroup incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it. Apart from the obvious fact of you being a general tool, why would you _want_ to consider continuing to use their service if you felt that they were cutting you off unfairly? The alternative is that you're not surprised by this action and are simply trying to spin things in your favor. -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis The woman's movement is no longer a cause but a symptom. -- Joan Didion -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev i melding news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. The solution to your problem is very simple: Stop posting your controversial writings and style to public newgroups, and keep them on your web-server where they belong. snipped / -- Dag. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee schreef: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, but this is newsgroup incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it. I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it., but that was of course the age of enlightenment. Immanuel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
From my point of view, this issue has two sides: 1) Xah is posting to the newgroups valid topics for discussion - if some find these controversial, then all the better: it means that the topic has provoked some thought. You only need to look at the quantity of Xah's threads to see how popular they are (even if you filter out the you're in my kill file, or plonk style spam that some people feel the need to post) 2) Xah cross posted the posts to several newsgroups he has an interest in. Now this second point should be the only factor for reporting him to his ISP. Given that it has gone this far, wouldn't it be fair to give the guy a break on the condition that if he wants to post to a variety of newgroups, that he does it individually rather than as a cross post? -- Ant... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Xah Lee schreef: snip: plea for sympathy after being reported to ISP for persistent off-topic postings Which reminds me of http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it., I don't think we have. Surely Voltaire didn't support speaking in inappropriate fora? He didn't support causing a public nuisance? Would you lay down *your* life to defend Xah's right to wallpaper your street, your church, your school with printed essays about his personal obsessions? In societies with a right to free speech, there are limits on where and how you may exercise that right. For example, you don't have a right to force any newspaper or TV station to publish your speech. Xah's ISP can decide whether their terms of service provide Xah with a right to publish anything he wishes through their facilities regardless of established standards of appropriateness. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
With apologies to Voltaire: If Xah Lee did not exist, it would be necessary for John Bokma to invent him. Xah and Bokma are both idiots, they truly deserve each other. The sooner you killfile these two clowns, the happier you'll be. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Surely Voltaire didn't support speaking in inappropriate fora? Who knows? But the fora Xah posts to are few (5 or so?) and appropriate. Software needs Philosophers wasn't even his rant, but was certainly appropriate to all groups he posted to. If you don't like Xah's posts, then don't read them. Killfile him or whatever. But they *are* generally on-topic, they are not frequent, they are not spam and they do seem to be intended to provoke discussion rather than being simply trolls. I have no particular affinity for Xah's views, but what does get up my nose is usenet Nazism. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, You don't? Then who has been forcing you to post off-topic essays? A man with a gun? but this is newsgroup incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it. Nothing out of hand here. You are abusing usenet, and for once an ISP is doing something prompt about it. More power them. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance). If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog. But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it. If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know, but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know what other grounds there would be. Cheers, --Tim -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Tim N. van der Leeuw schrieb: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. And repeatedly, others have encouraged him because they appreciate his posts. but since I've stopped following threads originated by him That's all you need to do if you are not interested in his posts. Timo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance). If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog. But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it. If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know, but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know what other grounds there would be. Cheers, --Tim The trouble is there's no definitive definition of 'nettiquette' (and no the RFC on nettiquette doesn't count). Should people get kicked off of thier ISP for top posting? What about not asking 'smart' questions as defined by Eric Raymond? In addition, the people telling him not to cross-post don't really have any authority. They're just random people on the internet. For example, you've cross posted to several groups. I'm telling you to stop. Of course I'm doing the same thing and you can feel free to ignore me. I'm not the Supreme Master of comp.lang.python. But I think you would agree that it would be harrassment if I went to your ISP- nl.unisys.com - and said that you were abusing the internet and 'spamming' the usenet, especially if you are a unisys employee (not sure if they're a service provider over there, but I'm guessing not). If I got a hold of the wrong person on the wrong day, you could lose your job. Xah is an crackpot, but he doesn't spam or mailbomb groups. And besides, what fun would the usenet be without crackpots? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
I was considering opening an account with Dreamhost. Can't say I agree with all of Xah's writings, but they often raise important points. Dreamhost is a company I will never spend money with. Usenet is full of narrow minded group thinking that needs to be questioned. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Alan wrote: With apologies to Voltaire: If Xah Lee did not exist, it would be necessary for John Bokma to invent him. Xah and Bokma are both idiots, they truly deserve each other. The sooner you killfile these two clowns, the happier you'll be. Well said, I couldn't put it better. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance). If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog. But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it. If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know, but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know what other grounds there would be. Cheers, --Tim Who reads blogs? They're well known for housing crackpots far worse than Xah, and I estimate he doesn't want to associate himself with that sort. -- The science of economics is the cleverest proof of free will yet constructed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. This would be a more compelling argument if people on newsgroups everywhere did not regularly carry on the most inane threads, often off-topic to begin with, but mostly threads that stray from something relevant to the NG to insert just about anything, ending only when Hitler is reached. And I am talking about NG regulars who really do usually talk about stuff specific to the NG. Those are the worst spammers of c.l.l, anyway. Xah's stuff, as wild as it is, is at least technical, and it is only an article here and an article there. John Bokma on the other hand well, I have to go write to the dorks at dreamhost now. kenny -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Ben Bullock wrote: Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this. Are you joking. Just change your provider? Do you have a little button on your computer that says Change provider? Cool! :) C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem. kenny -- Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/ Have you ever been in a relationship? Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her minister husband, when asked if the couple had marital problems. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Xah Lee schreef: [...] If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your help is appreciated. Thank you. Xah [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it., but that was of course the age of enlightenment. Immanuel I would have to say +1 for Voltaire. Xah has as much right to post to the newsgroups as I do to skip over them. One of the reasons I enjoy lurking on newsgroups is the passion with which a lot of you speak; however, I do think there are a lot of short tempers flying around. Perhaps its because you've been putting up with this guy a lot longer than I have, but I can't imagine it takes that much effort to skip/block/kill file his posts. It's his as much as anyone else's, and all the while this is an unmoderated medium he has the *right* to say as he pleases. That said, if the ISP is kicking you off, it should be because you have broken a TOC. IF you don't think that that is the case, then that is your beef with them. Secondarily, all these essays end up on your site anyway, so why post the whole thing /again/ on the newsgroups when you could just link to the page, perhaps with a brief summary. Will that not A) still allow you to advertise the essays B) Save resources rather than copying everything twice and C) Piss less people off? I'm sure you aren't worried about pissing people off, but when it results in you getting kicked from your ISP, this just seems so much more sensible an answer. My 2 cents. P.S. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Summary) says: quote Article 19. Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. /quote http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html This debate boils down to whether or not he has broken the ISP's TOCs, nothing more. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem. kenny I agree. It is not Xah who is the problem, but the 200 replies to him telling him to go away. Look at Xah's posting to replies ratio, it is enormous - Xah is the ultimate troll and everything he posts turns into huge threads. At c.l.l at least his threads are almost certainly the longest by far. The answer is easy, don't respond to his posts. Cheers Brad (sigh, now I am one of the crossposting Xah repliers) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Tim N. van der Leeuw wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree there are limits to you right to free speech, but I believe Xah Lee is not crossing any boundaries. If he starts taking over newspapers and TV stations be sure to notify me, I might revise my position. Immanuel Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance). If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a way to get people to visit his blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog. But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it. If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know, but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know what other grounds there would be. Cheers, --Tim Well said, Tim. Claudio -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
fup to poster Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, You're mistaken. Not that I or many other people with some brains had expected anything else. The problem is that you crosspost to 5 groups (5, which I am sure is a limitation Google Groups set to you, and has nothing to do with you respecting Usenet a bit) for the sole purpose of spamvertizing your website. recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. Which shows that your actions are frowned upon by others, for good reasons. Of course you are going in cry baby mode now. I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope so. I do not like to post off-topic messages, Liar. but this is newsgroup incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it. I wrote some full detail here: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html You mean your brain farted again some bullshit. If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] dreamhost has made a decission, a right one IMO. And now you ask people to harass them more? You really are just a pathetic little shit now aren't you? Not even the balls nor the guts to fix the issue that you are. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Dag Sunde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev i melding news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. The solution to your problem is very simple: Stop posting your controversial writings and style to public newgroups, and keep them on your web-server where they belong. Or post them to one, and just one, relevant news group instead of spamvertizing your site with a hit run post in 5 (which is a Google Groups limit, if it was 10, Xah would use 10) -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Ken Tilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Bullock wrote: Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this. Are you joking. Just change your provider? Do you have a little button on your computer that says Change provider? Cool! :) No, it will cost Xah money. In the end he will be with a bullet proof hoster, like other kooks on Usenet, or get the message. C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So other people can read that reporting Xah *does* have an effect. A lot of people think that a kill file is the only solution. So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty they are when they tell Xah off. So you haven't noticed that Xah does just hit run posting? In short, you have no clue what this is about, or are one of the fans Xah seem to have? Get a clue Kenny. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Timo Stamm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim N. van der Leeuw schrieb: Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. And repeatedly, others have encouraged him because they appreciate his posts. Of which I am sure a large part are just in for the troll fest that follows. Some probably have also bumped into the netiquette. And instead of using their brains, they can't handle the dent in their ego, and what is not with them, must be shit, so they love stuff like this. Every Usenet kook has a group of pathetic followers and sock puppets. but since I've stopped following threads originated by him That's all you need to do if you are not interested in his posts. You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am ok with it. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Eli Gottlieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who reads blogs? They're well known for housing crackpots far worse than Xah, and I estimate he doesn't want to associate himself with that sort. Yup, he seems to be quite happy as a Usenet Kook -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: [...] You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am ok with it. Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah. This is no-ones back garden. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Ken Tilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem. +12 ! -- You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is, Never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Ant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no particular affinity for Xah's views, but what does get up my nose is usenet Nazism. That's because you're clueless. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [...] You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am ok with it. Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah. This is no-ones back garden. Funny how people who always think they can change Usenet have no clue about what Usenet is and how it works in the first place. Usenet is just that, each server participating can be thought of as being the back yard of the news master. If you have no clue about how Usenet works, first read up a bit. What a Usenet server is, a feed, and how Usenet is distributed. And then come back if you finally have something to say that you can back up. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ken Tilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Bullock wrote: Xah Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust, please write to my web hosting provider [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this. Are you joking. Just change your provider? Do you have a little button on your computer that says Change provider? Cool! :) No, it will cost Xah money. In the end he will be with a bullet proof hoster, like other kooks on Usenet, or get the message. C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So other people can read that reporting Xah *does* have an effect. A lot of people think that a kill file is the only solution. You win my unofficial contest for Usenet Tool of the Year. It is not difficult to skip to the next file or to add a sender to a killfile. It is certainly less of a hassle than all this complaining you do. Life is short, John Bokma. There are more important things in the world than tattling on Xah to his host. Maybe you can start experiencing them if you learn to make use of the 'next message' key. So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty they are when they tell Xah off. So you haven't noticed that Xah does just hit run posting? I've noticed it - but have you? It would be only one post that could easily be ignored, if not for all this rubbish that you and people like you feel the need to post (sure, I realize I'm contributing to the problem). Isn't hit run posting better than a thread full of nonsense? -- You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is, Never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ∑ http://xahlee.org/ I can just declare my support. Reading Mr. Bokmas comments below [*] certainly makes my suport stronger. * http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/tree/browse_frm/thread/28edb6b248dbae85/b89d934d12adf3a9?rnum=61utoken=rJk98zMqRjR_RIs2SQx_9Hh6SccKbmCj1Nw6TBD3Zp3qTOpBLP1axhNO2WH2KLoXjtKtup7b9E_jTXH5EMe8d2Tvis0T_done=%2Fgroup%2Fcomp.lang.python%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F28edb6b248dbae85%2Fbbcab154ad579cd4%3Futoken%3DrJk98zMqRjR_RIs2SQx_9Hh6SccKbmCj1Nw6TBD3Zp3qTOpBLP1axhNO2WH2KLoXjtKtup7b9E_jTXH5EMe8d2Tvis0T%26#doc_837dc168e2a56fa2 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: Ant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no particular affinity for Xah's views, but what does get up my nose is usenet Nazism. That's because you're clueless. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html Time for a game! Both johnbokma.com and castleamber.com are hosted by seagull.net. Here is a link to their TOS: http://www.seagull.net/tos.html Who can come up with the most violations that John is committing on this thread? I count 4. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma schrieb: Timo Stamm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim N. van der Leeuw schrieb: [...] but since I've stopped following threads originated by him That's all you need to do if you are not interested in his posts. You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. Why the hell should I do that? I find his postings interesting. Of course I am just a pathetic, egocentric sock puppet with a dent in my ego and not using my brains, according to your logic. Thank you. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world [...] You sound like a villain from a James Bond movie. Timo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
On 24 May 2006 08:29:57 -0700, Rune Strand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can just declare my support. Reading Mr. Bokmas comments below [*] certainly makes my suport stronger. I sent an email in support of Xah, which I wouldn't have bothered to do had I not read the rapid-fire posts from Bokma which were abusive, insulting, and arrogant. Xah's posts often make me roll my eyes, or I skip them, but sometimes (and more so lately) they have been intriguing and foster thought-provoking replies. I'd prefer debate and discussion be fostered, rather than squelched. But what does this clueless sock-puppet know? ;) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Five is not excessive when they are on topic and they are on topic. If you don't like his posts ignore them, killfile them, whatever. I took the time to write his ISP a supporting email because it is important to keep unpopular speech, even more than popular speech, free. Censoring usenet serves no good purpose. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: That's because you're clueless. Well argued. No really. Not quite sure what you base the allegations on of course. John, you're well out of order getting this guy into problems with his ISP. Ken Tilton has it spot on - if everyone who wasn't interested in what he had to say ignored it, then it would make it far easier for those actually interested in the topic to reply, without a tirade of off topic abuse to filter through. I'm not a particular Xah fan, but I do find some of the threads provoked by his posts interesting. What is more of a concern to me is that he should have freedom to post on relevant newsgroups. Take a look at his site. You'll find that he is actually interested in the 5 or so newsgroups he cross-posts to, and his posts are general enough to apply to each of them. In short, get off of your soap box - if you don't like what the guy has to say then *ignore it*. FYI - I have written in support of Xah Lee to the ISP simply because I don't see why your personal problem with the guy should cost him money. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Bill Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Life is short, John Bokma. There are more important things in the world than tattling on Xah to his host. Maybe you can start experiencing them Maybe check out my site first before you make another silly remark. Typically that (almost?) everybody defending Xah has so little clue. if you learn to make use of the 'next message' key. Add up years of pressing that key, and add up the time it takes to send a few emails. If I considered Usenet a waste of time, I would have given up on it years ago. And finally, never thought about that it can be fun? So you haven't noticed that Xah does just hit run posting? I've noticed it - but have you? Since I mentioned, what do you think? (now wait...) It would be only one post that could easily be ignored, if not for all this rubbish that you and people like you feel the need to post (sure, Yup, which is not going to stop. Posting Don't feed the trolls messages don't help. I realize I'm contributing to the problem). Isn't hit run posting better than a thread full of nonsense? And ain't it cool that reporting Xah's abuse might stop both? -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Both johnbokma.com and castleamber.com are hosted by seagull.net. Here is a link to their TOS: http://www.seagull.net/tos.html Who can come up with the most violations that John is committing on this thread? I count 4. Be my guest: hostmaster at seagull dot net. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Robert Boyd wrote: On 24 May 2006 08:29:57 -0700, Rune Strand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can just declare my support. Reading Mr. Bokmas comments below [*] certainly makes my suport stronger. I sent an email in support of Xah, which I wouldn't have bothered to do had I not read the rapid-fire posts from Bokma which were abusive, insulting, and arrogant. Xah's posts often make me roll my eyes, or I skip them, but sometimes (and more so lately) they have been intriguing and foster thought-provoking replies. I'd prefer debate and discussion be fostered, rather than squelched. But what does this clueless sock-puppet know? ;) It's funny how a single obnoxious self-righteous usenet-nazi can make a slightly annoying loonie look good. I'm sure Bokma's ISP will get some unfriendly emails about him soon, if this hasn't started happening already. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: Ant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no particular affinity for Xah's views, but what does get up my nose is usenet Nazism. That's because you're clueless. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html Time for a game! Both johnbokma.com and castleamber.com are hosted by seagull.net. Here is a link to their TOS: http://www.seagull.net/tos.html Who can come up with the most violations that John is committing on this thread? I count 4. Let's not drop to his level. -- The science of economics is the cleverest proof of free will yet constructed. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
fup-to poster Ant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: That's because you're clueless. Well argued. No really. Not quite sure what you base the allegations on of course. Like I said, clueless. John, you're well out of order getting this guy into problems with his ISP. Based on what order? The law of the Usenet Kook? Ken Tilton has it spot on - if everyone who wasn't interested in what he had to say ignored it, then it would make it far easier for those actually interested in the topic to reply, without a tirade of off topic abuse to filter through. If Xah posts to just one group, on topic, the problem is gone. But Xah is spamvertizing his website, and hence posts to 5 groups (since I guess that's a limit GG sets, not Xah), so he doesn't care that a post on whitespace in Python ends up in a group on Java or Perl. I'm not a particular Xah fan, but I do find some of the threads provoked by his posts interesting. What is more of a concern to me is that he should have freedom to post on relevant newsgroups. He has. Take a look at his site. You'll find that he is actually interested in the 5 or so newsgroups he cross-posts to, and his posts are general enough to apply to each of them. In that very rare case he should pick a single group that matches his diatribe the best. And in the very rare case that 3 groups are on topic, he could set a follow up to. In short, get off of your soap box - if you don't like what the guy has to say then *ignore it*. No, that's the joke. I won't ignore it. And you're mistaken to think I am the only one that has reported Xah. It's simple: Xah has to stick to the netiquette, or complaints will go to his next hosting provider. In the end Xah either pays quite some money for bullet proof hosting (since that is what a host that offers a safe haven to spammers is called), or he goes yelling somewhere else. FYI - I have written in support of Xah Lee to the ISP simply because I don't see why your personal problem with the guy should cost him money. So you waste money of an ISP... The decision has been made, a few days ago even. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Getting eloquent isn't he? ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [...] You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am ok with it. Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah. This is no-ones back garden. Funny how people who always think they can change Usenet have no clue about what Usenet is and how it works in the first place. Who said anything about changing it? I like it just the way it is. Usenet is just that, each server participating can be thought of as being the back yard of the news master. Sure, each server has terms and conditions that apply, doesn't mean you should be able to ban people from speaking just because you don't like what they say. My point is that this isn't *your* back garden, it isn't *my* back garden. It isn't something I own, and it *IS* something I can filter and/or ignore. Someone shouting in your back garden is a whole different ball game where your desires prevail. Not here. You know what you are getting into when you sign in, and it is your responsibility to deal with those you don't agree with personally. I understand you consider his writings spam, and so can see why you have reported him. All I'm saying is that as long as the articles are remotely on topic, I believe he has a right to post his opinions here. If you have no clue about how Usenet works, first read up a bit. What a Usenet server is, a feed, and how Usenet is distributed. And then come back if you finally have something to say that you can back up. Thankfully I'm aware enough of all the above that I don't feel the need. As these are all opinions, I don't see any need to back up any of it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
fup to poster Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [...] Funny how people who always think they can change Usenet have no clue about what Usenet is and how it works in the first place. Who said anything about changing it? I like it just the way it is. You don't. Usenet is just that, each server participating can be thought of as being the back yard of the news master. [ .. ] here. You know what you are getting into when you sign in, and it is your responsibility to deal with those you don't agree with personally. I did. I understand you consider his writings spam, and so can see why you have reported him. All I'm saying is that as long as the articles are remotely on topic, I believe he has a right to post his opinions here. Where is *here*? That's exactly my point. All his posts go to 5 groups, as the replies to his posts. I have no problem if he posts in one of those groups, or even three if he sets a follow-up to. But Xah just dumps his load in 5 groups, no matter if it's on topic in any of them. And since they all promote his website, and Xah never joins the discussion (except to cry wolf when he has been harassed, overlooking that he has been harassing Usenet for quite some time) I consider his posts spam. Yet I report it as excessive cross posting. As these are all opinions, I don't see any need to back up any of it. My opinion is shared by his hosting provider, and probably the next as well, unless Xah decides to pay a bit more. -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
bradb wrote: C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem. kenny I agree. It is not Xah who is the problem, but the 200 replies to him telling him to go away. To make a witty comment: Xah starts flamewars and people really *do* like to contribute although they find it awfull. Xah is the star, who undresses his mind. But good and sensitive people don't like liking to contribute in those nasty battles and believe their time is deserved to something less wastefull. I mildly disagree with attitude and tend to think that most serious work is a waste of time. Xah lets people really do what they want: ranting about other programming languages, ranting about programming language communities ( which are mostly boring and awfull but that's kind of a familiy thing: my family is boring and awfull too but when being attacked it's still my family ) and ranting about trolls that let them do what they want. Everything in the name of Xah the lord of misrule. If any language community was actually cool - unfortunetaly there is none - they would invite Xah to write essays for them. A kind of weekly Xah commentary on the state of the language ( and of course its documentation and other languages etc. ). Maybe it would evolve quite fine if Xah could be pacified? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: John Bokma harassment
! ! -Original Message- From: John Bokma And ain't it cool that reporting Xah's abuse might stop both? -- John Bokma Freelance software developer Experienced Perl programmer: http://castleamber.com/ CRAP! I am not sure which of these idiots is worse; John or Xah. Although, judging from other folks' responses to Xah Lee's posts, there is some value. John's stuff is just pure crap. I wasn't going to support Xah, but, now, I think I will. BTW, I hate bottom posting, but I didn't want to start another flame war... The information contained in this message and any attachment may be proprietary, confidential, and privileged or subject to the work product doctrine and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify me immediately by replying to this message and deleting it and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
John Bokma wrote: fup to poster Mitch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: [...] Funny how people who always think they can change Usenet have no clue about what Usenet is and how it works in the first place. Who said anything about changing it? I like it just the way it is. You don't. All that I snipped is your opinion, which is yours to do with as you please. I like it just the way it is. is *MY* opinion, so please don't try to change it. I think I know my opinion best. And as for setting it to reply to only you, I changed that back. I don't think you censoring (redirecting) other peoples replies/opinions serves the purpose of this thread well. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Kay Schluehr wrote: To make a witty comment: Xah is the star, who undresses his mind. But good and sensitive people don't like liking to contribute in those nasty battles and believe their time is deserved to something less wastefull. I mildly disagree with attitude and tend to think that most serious work is a waste of time. Everything in the name of Xah the lord of misrule. Dude, pony up for another english class, so you can keep on trolling as eloquently as Xah. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: John Bokma harassment
Xah Lee wrote: I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my controversial writings and style, recently John Bokma lobbied people to complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last Friday. [...] I sent an e-mail to them to try to help you. I hope you don't lose your account; I enjoy your postings. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
