Re: A terminators' club for clp
In article mailman.506.1258388595.2873.python-l...@python.org, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: Some usenet newsgroups were/are moderated either by a robot, a person, or a team (as you suggested). But a particular newsgroup has to be set up that way from the beginning. Last I knew, it wan/is? difficult to convert an unmoderated group to moderation. It has gotten exponentially more difficult over the last decade. -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. --Brian W. Kernighan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
In 7x3a4i56u7@ruckus.brouhaha.com Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid writes: kj no.em...@please.post writes: frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the comp.lang.python server? Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy enough that there is some merit to that idea. Sorry, I had a mistaken view of how usenet was implemented. But yeah, I guess I'm thinking of a moderated newsgroup, but with a large number of moderators working in parallel, and a very lax acceptance policy. The goal is to filter out only the obvious spam, and let through all the other non-spam traffic as quickly as possible... What do I mean by obvious spam? Well, among the most recent messages (that have survived my killfile policies) I see the following subject lines: * Top 10 US mp3 songs.Cheers * www.find68.com cheaper nike shoes g-satr kidrobot hoodies ed hardy star red monkey gino green global true religion ed-hardy kidrobot jeans hoodies china supplier wholesaler exporters,manufacture * jobs in france jobs in france for english people jobs in france for foreigners jobs in france for australians jobs in france for foreigners jobs in france for new zealanders jobs paris jobs http://jobs-in-fr ance.blogspot.com/ * germany jobs germany job sites germany job search jobs in germany german jobs germany jobs it germany jobs for foreigners germany jobsite germany jobs in english on http://jobs-germany.blogspot.com/ Those look pretty obvious to me. But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here, so I'd better shut up. kynn -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
kj wrote: In 7x3a4i56u7@ruckus.brouhaha.com Paul Rubin http://phr...@nospam.invalid writes: kj no.em...@please.post writes: frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the comp.lang.python server? Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy enough that there is some merit to that idea. Sorry, I had a mistaken view of how usenet was implemented. But yeah, I guess I'm thinking of a moderated newsgroup, but with a large number of moderators working in parallel, and a very lax acceptance policy. The goal is to filter out only the obvious spam, and let through all the other non-spam traffic as quickly as possible... What do I mean by obvious spam? Well, among the most recent messages (that have survived my killfile policies) I see the following subject lines: * Top 10 US mp3 songs.Cheers * www.find68.com cheaper nike shoes g-satr kidrobot hoodies ed hardy star red monkey gino green global true religion ed-hardy kidrobot jeans hoodies china supplier wholesaler exporters,manufacture * jobs in france jobs in france for english people jobs in france for foreigners jobs in france for australians jobs in france for foreigners jobs in france for new zealanders jobs paris jobs http://jobs-in-fr ance.blogspot.com/ * germany jobs germany job sites germany job search jobs in germany german jobs germany jobs it germany jobs for foreigners germany jobsite germany jobs in english on http://jobs-germany.blogspot.com/ Those look pretty obvious to me. But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here, so I'd better shut up. Some usenet newsgroups were/are moderated either by a robot, a person, or a team (as you suggested). But a particular newsgroup has to be set up that way from the beginning. Last I knew, it wan/is? difficult to convert an unmoderated group to moderation. Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
On Nov 14, 12:08 pm, r rt8...@gmail.com wrote: On Nov 14, 7:28 am, gil_johnson x7-g5w...@earthlink.net wrote: Actually there is a rank this post (gotta be careful with that verbage!) AND a report this post as spam. Of course it only exists in GG's and not Usenet. I *do* know that the star system is used quite frequently, but i doubt anyone bothers to use the report as spam link since it seems have no effect whatsoever. Heh. I should look around more before posting. It does prove your point, though. The 'spam' button is ubiquitous, but so seldom used it's forgotten. Actually, my enthusiasm for my idea faded with a little thought. It is an extra effort to open spam to get to the 'spam' button, and sends the message to the spammer that people are, indeed opening their junk. I'd use it if I opened a message with a deceptive subject. Gil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu writes: r wrote: On Nov 14, 4:59 am, kj no.em...@please.post wrote: But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here, so I'd better shut up. Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues of spam infestations. Anyone with a newsreader can, like me, read gmane.comp.python.general, which mirrors python-list, which now filters out much/most of the spam on c.l.p from G.g. The same is true on some (not sure if it qualifies for many) Usenet servers. I use news.individual.net for example (for a modest yearly fee as of a few years ago) and in my experience it does a great job at filtering spam. I'm sure there are other services that do as well. I don't have to manage any special filters and don't seem to see any of the stuff in this group, for example, mentioned in this thread. I do use gmane for a lot of other lists (including python-dev) that aren't operated as a Usenet newsgroups and it's an excellent service. -- David -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
On Nov 14, 4:59 am, kj no.em...@please.post wrote: But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here, so I'd better shut up. Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues of spam infestations. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
On Nov 13, 5:29 pm, kj no.em...@please.post wrote: [...] Or it could be set up so that at least n 1 delete votes and no keep votes are required to get something nixed. Etc. This seems simpler than all-out moderation. (all-out moderation? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!) How about using a rank this post feature? Anybody could rank a post as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic vote troll. Gil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
* gil_johnson: On Nov 13, 5:29 pm, kj no.em...@please.post wrote: [...] Or it could be set up so that at least n 1 delete votes and no keep votes are required to get something nixed. Etc. This seems simpler than all-out moderation. (all-out moderation? now, there's an oxymoron for ya!) How about using a rank this post feature? Anybody could rank a post as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic vote troll. The problem with moderation isn't getting rid of spam and trolls etc., but turnaround time. In some cases trivial questions cause a flood of essentially identical trivial responses to pile up before the mods can get at them. And then there's the dilemma of whether to approve all that or make judgements based on /content/. The latter leads to a very slippery slope, you really don't want the mods to do that, plus that in some cases what might appear trivial leads to very fruitful discussion of not-so-trivial aspects. But it's not either/or: it's possible to have both an unmoderated group (fast turnaround, much spam, some heated discussion) and a corresponding moderated group (slow turnaround, no spam, far less heat, presence of more experts), e.g. as [comp.lang.c++] and [oomp.lang.c++.moderated]. :-) Cheers hth., - Alf -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
On Nov 14, 7:28 am, gil_johnson x7-g5w...@earthlink.net wrote: How about using a rank this post feature? Anybody could rank a post as spam, and a sufficiently large number of negatives would quickly draw the attention of someone with the power to kill the message. I suppose even this is subject to abuse, allowing harassment of a legitimate poster., but my guess is that the votes against counterfeit Nike shoes, etc., would outnumber the most energetic vote troll. Gil Actually there is a rank this post (gotta be careful with that verbage!) AND a report this post as spam. Of course it only exists in GG's and not Usenet. I *do* know that the star system is used quite frequently, but i doubt anyone bothers to use the report as spam link since it seems have no effect whatsoever. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
Alf P. Steinbach al...@start.no writes: The problem with moderation isn't getting rid of spam and trolls etc., but turnaround time. There is automatic moderation software that auto-approves any post from an address that has had one or two posts manually approved. While that's susceptible to address forgery, the typical spammer doesn't do that. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
r wrote: On Nov 14, 4:59 am, kj no.em...@please.post wrote: But, as I already showed, I'm out of my depth here, so I'd better shut up. Don't give up so easy! The idea is great, what Paul is saying is that most people who read this group use newsreaders and that has nothing to do with google groups. These guy's have kill filters for just this sort of thing but either way the emails are on their puters so they have to deal with them on an individual basis. It would be nice however to clean up the Google group version and rid it of the plagues of spam infestations. Anyone with a newsreader can, like me, read gmane.comp.python.general, which mirrors python-list, which now filters out much/most of the spam on c.l.p from G.g. To post from g.c.p.g, one must use a real email address and respond once to an email sent to that address. So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu writes: To post from g.c.p.g, one must use a real email address and respond once to an email sent to that address. So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). No I don't think so. Unwilling to disclose email address or enroll yet another computer account is not the same as anonymous. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
On Nov 14, 4:52 pm, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). I don't think that completely correct. Lots of people find GG's to be more suited to their news reading pleasures, i am one of them. I hate to have an email just overflowing with mails all the time. Here in GG's, i just come and go without worrying about deleting messages or kill filters or whatever. Maybe even Guido himself uses GG's? Heck for all we know Guido could have a pybot sending all these spams just so Python's TIOBE index will increase! ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu writes: So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). Or if one has an ISP who provides a Usenet feed, like mine does. A pox upon Andrew Cuomo for bashing ISPs in the USA with the stick of “child pornography” (which he discovered on 88 out of many thousands of forums). Faced with the unreasonable role of policing Usenet, they shut it all off URL:http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html. -- \ “We spend the first twelve months of our children's lives | `\ teaching them to walk and talk and the next twelve years | _o__) telling them to sit down and shut up.” —Phyllis Diller | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
Paul Rubin wrote: Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu writes: To post from g.c.p.g, one must use a real email address and respond once to an email sent to that address. So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). No I don't think so. Unwilling to disclose email address or enroll yet another computer account is not the same as anonymous. There is no 'enrolling' except for hitting reply to an email *when you first post*, but never to just read. You point your news reader to gmane just like to any other newsserver. Once you do, you have access to a couple hundred other Python mailing lists and 1000s of others. I believe c.l.p is one of the few that also appear on gmane, and only because of its gateway to/from python-list. Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
r wrote: On Nov 14, 4:52 pm, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). I don't think that completely correct. Lots of people find GG's to be more suited to their news reading pleasures, I was referring to c.l.p on a nntp newsserver read by a newsreader program. That was the context of the previous discussion. G.G. is different, read through a browser (and only that, as far as I know). i am one of them. I hate to have an email just overflowing with mails all the time. Here in GG's, i just come and go without worrying about deleting messages or kill filters or whatever. That is why I read python-list and other mailing lists (that are not available as a g.g.) via gmane. Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
Ben Finney wrote: Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu writes: So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). Or if one has an ISP who provides a Usenet feed, like mine does. Gmane is a nntp news feed, just not a usenet feed. If you can read usenet, you can read gmane, probably in the time it took you to write this post -- and get access to 1000s of mirrer mailing lists. I switched to gmane's mirror of python-list *before* I had to because it was superior, overall, to my ISP at the time. Hoever, if you like the extra spam, don't spend the minute it takes. But my comment is directed at those complaining about it. Just tell your newsreader to make a new news 'account' for news.gmane.org or snews.gmane.org (port 563) to use ssl - either at the corresponding default ports. tjr -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
In article 877htsskox@benfinney.id.au, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu writes: So, the only reason to use c.l.p is if one wants to post anonymously, like the spammers do ;-). Or if one has an ISP who provides a Usenet feed, like mine does. Mine does, too. A pox upon Andrew Cuomo for bashing ISPs in the USA with the stick of âchild pornographyâ (which he discovered on 88 out of many thousands of forums). Faced with the unreasonable role of policing Usenet, they shut it all off URL:http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html. Actually, my ISP is in New York City. -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ [on old computer technologies and programmers] Fancy tail fins on a brand new '59 Cadillac didn't mean throwing out a whole generation of mechanics who started with model As. --Andrew Dalke -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
kj no.em...@please.post writes: frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the comp.lang.python server? Um, this is usenet; there is no comp.lang.python server. Are you saying you want a moderated newsgroup? Hmm, maybe this group is busy enough that there is some merit to that idea. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A terminators' club for clp
On Nov 13, 5:29 pm, kj no.em...@please.post wrote: This is meta-question about comp.lang.python. I apologize in advance if it has been already discussed. Also, I don't know enough about the underlying mechanics of comp.lang.python, so this may be *totally unfeasible*, but how about giving a few bona fide *and frequent* clp posters the ability to *easily* delete spam from the comp.lang.python server? How long you been hanging around here? There are problems inherent in all moderated groups. When you give anyone the power to delete post they can use it for good and for evil. c.l.py like all groups has good and bad followers, spam, and trollers like anywhere else. What you consider spam and trolling i may consider freedom of speech although like anyone here i vehemently hate spammers and would like to put them out of business permanently! Trolls don't bother me so much because i just skip past their posts -- And there are many levels of trolling. However if you are selling something (that is *not* directly python related) then i think we could *safely* say that you are spamming this group. Nobody has come here to buy a knockoff Rolex's or Nike tennis shoes at ten bucks each. If you are posting porn links then we could *safely* say that porn is in no way applicable to this group and delete them on that merit. I'm OK with that, but would it stop there? If you look back through history you will find many instances of the powerful robbing the innocent peoples of freedoms in the name of good, or even the name of God, despicable hypocrite's!. Heck people where murdered by nation states just because of fear and ignorance (Salem witch trials ring a bell, the holocaust ring a bell?, and many many more sad cases). So if i had a choice between trollers, spammers, and power hungry murderers, i'll buy the rolex and listen to x-and-lee's all day long thank you very much! Power is corrupting, and absolute power is absolutely corrupting! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
