Re: Django as exemplary design
In message mailman.2704.1273192642.23598.python-l...@python.org, MRAB wrote: Albert Hopkins wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 16:38 -0700, Patrick Maupin wrote: I don't know how this applies to reading other peoples' code, but recent research shows we learn more from success than failure That's good to learn, because for years I have been intentionally failing in order to learn from it and become successful, and it hasn't really worked out for me :| Failure just teaches you what you shouldn't do, not what you should... But there are more different ways to fail than to succeed, therefore more to learn. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
In message hs10nb$6o...@panix5.panix.com, Aahz wrote: My suspicion is that very very few medium/large systems are truly well-designed. Conway’s law applies: the product of any human endeavour reflects the organizational structure that produced it. If the individuals/groups writing the different parts of the software were in regular communication, and working towards a common goal rather than at odds with each other, that will be reflected in the way their contributions interact. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
Am 07.05.2010 04:48, schrieb TomF: On 2010-05-06 18:20:02 -0700, Trent Nelson said: I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. I'll tell you one of the best ways to improve your Python code: attend one of Raymond Hettinger's Code Clinic workshops at a Python conference and put some up of your work up on the projector for 20+ developers to rip apart, line by line ;-) You'll pick up more in 30 minutes than you ever thought possible. I don't doubt it. But I'm not really interested in line (micro) level code issues at the moment. Not that my code couldn't stand being improved, but I'm more interested in seeing how medium/large OO python systems are designed. If I could get this from a book I would, but I suspect I need to study real code. Then trac might be a good candidate, start here http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracDev/ComponentArchitecture then read http://trac.edgewall.org/browser/trunk/trac/core.py#latest there is one rather dubious hack in the implementation of implements() but I like the conceptual simplicity. cheers Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
In article 2010050619481239450-tomfsess...@gmailcom, TomF tomf.sess...@gmail.com wrote: I don't doubt it. But I'm not really interested in line (micro) level code issues at the moment. Not that my code couldn't stand being improved, but I'm more interested in seeing how medium/large OO python systems are designed. If I could get this from a book I would, but I suspect I need to study real code. My suspicion is that very very few medium/large systems are truly well-designed. I've had occasion to dive into the CherryPy and Cheetah code, you might look there. -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code. --Bill Harlan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
In article 4be132f1$0$20639$426a7...@news.free.fr, Bruno Desthuilliers bruno.42.desthuilli...@websiteburo.invalid wrote: The more bad code (mine or not) I have to maintain (or even just read and understand), the more I pay attention to my own design and code quality. Sometimes you only understand why something is bad, why it is bad and how bad it is when you have to deal with it :( ...and sometimes it takes several months of living with bad code to really understand how to rewrite it. I'm currently rewriting a chunk of bad code that merges three datasources. If I had done the rewriting five months ago (when I first started feeling that I understood the codebase well enough to do the job), I would not be doing the complete rewrite that I'm currently doing, which would have led to suboptimal code lasting longer. -- Aahz (a...@pythoncraft.com) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code. --Bill Harlan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
On May 4, 5:34 pm, TomF tomf.sess...@gmail.com wrote: On 2010-05-04 07:11:08 -0700, alex23 said: (I also think there's value to be gained in studying _bad_ code, too...) True, although whether that's time well spent is another question. I don't know how this applies to reading other peoples' code, but recent research shows we learn more from success than failure: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/successes-0729.html Regards, Pat -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 16:38 -0700, Patrick Maupin wrote: I don't know how this applies to reading other peoples' code, but recent research shows we learn more from success than failure That's good to learn, because for years I have been intentionally failing in order to learn from it and become successful, and it hasn't really worked out for me :| -a -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
Albert Hopkins wrote: On Thu, 2010-05-06 at 16:38 -0700, Patrick Maupin wrote: I don't know how this applies to reading other peoples' code, but recent research shows we learn more from success than failure That's good to learn, because for years I have been intentionally failing in order to learn from it and become successful, and it hasn't really worked out for me :| Failure just teaches you what you shouldn't do, not what you should... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Django as exemplary design
I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. I'll tell you one of the best ways to improve your Python code: attend one of Raymond Hettinger's Code Clinic workshops at a Python conference and put some up of your work up on the projector for 20+ developers to rip apart, line by line ;-) You'll pick up more in 30 minutes than you ever thought possible. Trent. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
On 2010-05-06 18:20:02 -0700, Trent Nelson said: I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. I'll tell you one of the best ways to improve your Python code: attend one of Raymond Hettinger's Code Clinic workshops at a Python conference and put some up of your work up on the projector for 20+ developers to rip apart, line by line ;-) You'll pick up more in 30 minutes than you ever thought possible. I don't doubt it. But I'm not really interested in line (micro) level code issues at the moment. Not that my code couldn't stand being improved, but I'm more interested in seeing how medium/large OO python systems are designed. If I could get this from a book I would, but I suspect I need to study real code. -Tom -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
TomF a écrit : On 2010-05-04 07:11:08 -0700, alex23 said: (snip) (I also think there's value to be gained in studying _bad_ code, too...) True, although whether that's time well spent is another question. The more bad code (mine or not) I have to maintain (or even just read and understand), the more I pay attention to my own design and code quality. Sometimes you only understand why something is bad, why it is bad and how bad it is when you have to deal with it :( -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
TomF a écrit : I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. Someone (not a python programmer) suggested Django. I realize that Django is popular, but can someone comment on whether its code is well-designed and worth studying? Carl makes some valid points in his answer, and there are indeed a couple dark corners in this area - bit it's just a part of the whole framework. There are still things worth studying in Django IHMO, specially if you're interested in seeing metaclasses and descriptors at work. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
TomF tomf.sess...@gmail.com wrote: I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. Someone (not a python programmer) suggested Django. I realize that Django is popular, but can someone comment on whether its code is well-designed and worth studying? Here's a viewpoint that says no: http://mockit.blogspot.com/2010/04/mess-djangos-in.html There's a lot of good counterpoint in the comments too. (I also think there's value to be gained in studying _bad_ code, too...) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Django as exemplary design
From: alex23 (I also think there's value to be gained in studying _bad_ code, too...) Oh, very true. And not just true for python. But, only if an 'expoert' points out why it is bad and provides an alternative. And saying things like, it isn't pyhonic or that such and such is a more pythonic way is NOT helpful. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
On May 4, 12:37 am, Bruno Desthuilliers bruno. 42.desthuilli...@websiteburo.invalid wrote: TomF a écrit : I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. Someone (not a python programmer) suggested Django. I realize that Django is popular, but can someone comment on whether its code is well-designed and worth studying? Carl makes some valid points in his answer, and there are indeed a couple dark corners in this area - bit it's just a part of the whole framework. There are still things worth studying in Django IHMO, specially if you're interested in seeing metaclasses and descriptors at work. Absolutely. I said it was less than exemplary, i.e., still pretty good. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
Thanks to everyone for their comments. On 2010-05-04 07:11:08 -0700, alex23 said: TomF tomf.sess...@gmail.com wrote: I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. Someone (not a python programmer) suggested Django. I realize that Django is popular, but can someone comment on whether its code is well-designed and worth studying? Here's a viewpoint that says no: http://mockit.blogspot.com/2010/04/mess-djangos-in.html There's a lot of good counterpoint in the comments too. I read most of the discussion. Yep, there is a LOT of disagreement about the code quality. I guess I'll dig in and see whether I can learn anything. (I also think there's value to be gained in studying _bad_ code, too...) True, although whether that's time well spent is another question. Regards, -Tom -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Django as exemplary design
On May 3, 12:24 pm, TomF tomf.sess...@gmail.com wrote: I'm interested in improving my python design by studying a large, well-designed codebase. Someone (not a python programmer) suggested Django. I realize that Django is popular, but can someone comment on whether its code is well-designed and worth studying? I once delved into django because I wanted to use a couple of the administrative tools for non-web tasks, and found it to be disappointingly ad hoc. It it makes some assumptions about file locations and module names (unnecessarily, IMO). It works well as long as someone sticks to the rigid conventions, but can't cope well with deviances. Therefore I'd call its codebase less than exemplary. As a tool it's quite good (as long as you can stick to the prescribed layout) but that's a different question. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
