Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 01-07-13 16:02, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:


You claim collective experience is not reliable and dismiss it
in favor of your own theory, flaming trolls is a better response.
And your evidence for that?  Nothing (that I've read so far).


You can decide all for yourself on how you want to handle trolls.
But consider the following possibilty. A couple of trolls that
are good in getting each other riled up. The regular members
who mostly have killfiled them. Then who will be burdened most
by the trolls? The newcomers. The regulars may succeed in creating
a coccoon with a welcoming and positive atmosphere, but they
have by doing so blinded themselves to how the group looks like
to outsiders and so have no idea how hostile the group may have
become to newbees.


Ironically your flame war with Nikos in
   http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/650905.html
provides evidence for the validity of the collective experience you
dismiss, that engaging in flame wars with trolls simply produces more
flames, hostility begets hostility.  I, and I think the majority of
people here, find that very unpleasant.  You have become (as predicted
by the collective experience you dismiss) as offensive as any troll.


A lot of unfairness stays in the world because people find it unpleasant
to fight it and even to observe fighting it.

--
Antoon Pardon
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:02 AM,  ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 ... engaging in flame wars with trolls simply produces more
 flames, hostility begets hostility ...

It does. Please can these threads die quietly now?

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 07/01/2013 01:38 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
  Op 01-07-13 16:02, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
  
  You claim collective experience is not reliable and dismiss it
  in favor of your own theory, flaming trolls is a better response.
  And your evidence for that?  Nothing (that I've read so far).
  
  You can decide all for yourself on how you want to handle trolls.
  But consider the following possibilty. A couple of trolls that
  are good in getting each other riled up. The regular members
  who mostly have killfiled them. Then who will be burdened most
  by the trolls? The newcomers. The regulars may succeed in creating
  a coccoon with a welcoming and positive atmosphere, but they
  have by doing so blinded themselves to how the group looks like
  to outsiders and so have no idea how hostile the group may have
  become to newbees.

That is a possibility.  But your cocoon senario is highly
improbable because,
1. There will never be 100% compliance with any consensus here,
and
2. There will always be enough backscatter and other leakage 
that all cocoons will be will rather permeable.  If you'll recall 
it was that permeability, and the cost it imposes on the large 
majority of people here who object to it, that was an argument 
against your proposal, back at the start of this thread.

Even allowing the possibility of two trolls mixing it up [*1], 
how does your proposal, to amplify the volume of hostility several 
times, improve the situation for your newbee?

Far better to simply remind your newbee that most here feel 
that not feeding trolls is the most appropriate response and
then demonstrate that in practice.

  Ironically your flame war with Nikos in
 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/650905.html
  provides evidence for the validity of the collective experience you
  dismiss, that engaging in flame wars with trolls simply produces more
  flames, hostility begets hostility.  I, and I think the majority of
  people here, find that very unpleasant.  You have become (as predicted
  by the collective experience you dismiss) as offensive as any troll.
  
  A lot of unfairness stays in the world because people find it unpleasant
  to fight it and even to observe fighting it.

And a lot of misery is caused by people enforcing their idea 
of right. 


[*1]
You and Nikos in the python adds an extra half space... thread
might be an actual example of your hypothetical: two trolls 
intentionally provoking each other and in the process, successfully
provoking a lot of emotional reaction from others.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 30-06-13 19:50, Ian Kelly schreef:

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Antoon Pardon




That is a bit odd. Rurpy seemed to consider it a big nono if others
used methods that would coerce him to change his behaviour. But here
you see shaming as an option which seems a coercive method.


Well, if it didn't work the first time, I wouldn't keep at it.  I
don't consider that coercive.


That is a fair point.

--
Antoon Pardon
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/30/2013 11:25 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 28-06-13 19:20, Ian Kelly schreef:
[...]
 Flaming a troll is not punishing to them.
 
 I see I didn't make my point clear. This was my response to
 your remark about the collective experience going back decades.
 The collective experience often enough doesn't carry over wisdom
 but myth. To illustrate that, I gave the example of teachers whose
 collective experience is contradicted by the research. So if the
 only thing you can rely on is the collective experience of the
 group your knowledge isn't very relyable.

I don't have anything to add to the discussion beyond restating
what I've already said (which I'm not interested in doing), except 
to address this point in light of recent posts on the list.

You claim collective experience is not reliable and dismiss it 
in favor of your own theory, flaming trolls is a better response.
And your evidence for that?  Nothing (that I've read so far).

Collective experience may not always be totally reliable but it 
seems to me it is better than the non-experience that you have 
offered.

Ironically your flame war with Nikos in 
  http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/650905.html
provides evidence for the validity of the collective experience you 
dismiss, that engaging in flame wars with trolls simply produces more 
flames, hostility begets hostility.  I, and I think the majority of
people here, find that very unpleasant.  You have become (as predicted 
by the collective experience you dismiss) as offensive as any troll.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 28-06-13 19:20, Ian Kelly schreef:

On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be  wrote:

So what do you think would be a good approach towards people
who are behaving in conflict with this wish of yours? Just
bluntly call them worse than the troll or try to approach them
in a way that is less likely to antangonize them?


Inform them that their behavior is damaging the list atmosphere, and
ask them to please knock it off.  Shaming the behavior works too, but
I'd prefer to go with the former.


That is a bit odd. Rurpy seemed to consider it a big nono if others
used methods that would coerce him to change his behaviour. But here
you see shaming as an option which seems a coercive method.

So if some group views the response to trollish behaviour as too
willing in cooperating with bad behaviour and as such damaging to
the list, this group can then inform the cooperators that their
behaviour is damaging the list atmosphere and ask to please knock it
off. And they can consider more coercive methods too?


The collective experience of theachers is that punishment for bad
performance works, despite research showing otherwise.


Flaming a troll is not punishing to them.


I see I didn't make my point clear. This was my response to
your remark about the collective experience going back decades.
The collective experience often enough doesn't carry over wisdom
but myth. To illustrate that, I gave the example of teachers whose
collective experience is contradicted by the research. So if the
only thing you can rely on is the collective experience of the
group your knowledge isn't very relyable.

I also find it somewhat odd that you talk about a troll here. AFAIU
the people who are most annoyed by those flaming/protesting Nikos,
don't seem to consider Nikos a troll. But if Nikos is not a troll
then protesting Nikos's behaviour can't be protested against on
the ground that it would be troll feeding.


I am implying nothing. I'm just pointing out the difference between
how rurpy explains we should behave towards Nikos and how he behaved
towards the flamers. If there is some sort of implication it is with
rurpy in that difference and not with me in me pointing it out.


Your statement I just don't understand why you think you should be so
careful to Nikos implies that somebody thinks we should be careful to
Nikos, i.e. be careful to not hurt his feelings.  At least that is how
I read it, and I don't think it is true.


What Rurpy's motivation would be for being careful to Nikos, you have to
ask him. I'm only pointing out that in contrast to the blunt statement
he made about those flaming/protesting Nikos, how he explained we
should behave towards Nikos can accurately be described as careful.

...


Do you think being blunt is a good way in keeping a welcoming and
postive atmosphere in this group?


I think it's better than being openly hostile.  And speaking for
myself, if somebody has a problem with my own behavior then I would
prefer that they be blunt about it than cover it up with a false
friendliness.


Sure, but there is a difference between telling people you have
a problem with their behaviour and telling people their behaviour
is wrong or damaging. Yet when you have trouble with particular
behaviour you go for the latter instead for the former.


I am not so sure it would be counter-productive. A joint flaming
of a troll can be an effective way to increase coherence in a
group.


Well, if flaming ever becomes the prevailing culture of the list, then I'm out.


Sure, I can understand that. But doesn't this contradict somewhat
that this is about others damaging this group. Increasing coherence
would IMO be positive for a group, but you would still not like it. So
it seems more about keeping an atmosphere that you prefer. There is
nothing qrong with that, but if you can keep that in mind, your
approach is more likely to be fruitful.

--
Antoon Pardon.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 So what do you think would be a good approach towards people
 who are behaving in conflict with this wish of yours? Just
 bluntly call them worse than the troll or try to approach them
 in a way that is less likely to antangonize them?


 Inform them that their behavior is damaging the list atmosphere, and
 ask them to please knock it off.  Shaming the behavior works too, but
 I'd prefer to go with the former.


 That is a bit odd. Rurpy seemed to consider it a big nono if others
 used methods that would coerce him to change his behaviour. But here
 you see shaming as an option which seems a coercive method.

Well, if it didn't work the first time, I wouldn't keep at it.  I
don't consider that coercive.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 So what do you think would be a good approach towards people
 who are behaving in conflict with this wish of yours? Just
 bluntly call them worse than the troll or try to approach them
 in a way that is less likely to antangonize them?

Inform them that their behavior is damaging the list atmosphere, and
ask them to please knock it off.  Shaming the behavior works too, but
I'd prefer to go with the former.

 The collective experience of theachers is that punishment for bad
 performance works, despite research showing otherwise.

Flaming a troll is not punishing to them.

 Now as far as I am concerned you can be as blunt as you want to
 be. I just don't understand why you think you should be so
 careful to Nikos, while at the same time you saw no need for
 careful wording here.


 Nobody is suggesting that we should make any effort to try to avoid
 hurting Nikos' feelings, contrary to what you seem to be implying
 here.


 I am implying nothing. I'm just pointing out the difference between
 how rurpy explains we should behave towards Nikos and how he behaved
 towards the flamers. If there is some sort of implication it is with
 rurpy in that difference and not with me in me pointing it out.

Your statement I just don't understand why you think you should be so
careful to Nikos implies that somebody thinks we should be careful to
Nikos, i.e. be careful to not hurt his feelings.  At least that is how
I read it, and I don't think it is true.

 Be as blunt as you want with him, but please recognize that
 troll baiting /does not work/ as a means of making the troll go away
 and only serves to further degrade the list.

 It's not clear to me what you are precisely saying here. Do you think
 being blunt is a form of troll baiting or not? Because my impression
 of those who are bothered by the flamers, was that being blunt was just
 a form of troll baiting and would just cause similar kind of list
 degradation.

No.  Flaming carries an emotional response, which signals to the troll
that they've struck a nerve and can help incite them.  A blunt,
non-emotional response is less likely to end up functioning as
positive reinforcement in that way.  That said, the best response to a
troll is still no response at all.

 Do you think being blunt is a good way in keeping a welcoming and
 postive atmosphere in this group?

I think it's better than being openly hostile.  And speaking for
myself, if somebody has a problem with my own behavior then I would
prefer that they be blunt about it than cover it up with a false
friendliness.

 I am not so sure it would be counter-productive. A joint flaming
 of a troll can be an effective way to increase coherence in a
 group.

Well, if flaming ever becomes the prevailing culture of the list, then I'm out.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 26-06-13 23:02, Ian Kelly schreef:

On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be  wrote:

But you didn't even go to the trouble of trying to find out
what those concerns would be and how strong people feel about
them. You just took your assumptions about those concerns for
granted and proceeded from there.


Jumping back in here, I for one don't give a hoot about their
concerns, beyond the basic assumption that they feel the same way I do
about Nikos' threads and wish that he would leave.  I just want to
maintain a positive and welcoming atmosphere around here.


So what do you think would be a good approach towards people
who are behaving in conflict with this wish of yours? Just
bluntly call them worse than the troll or try to approach them
in a way that is less likely to antangonize them?


I expect
that most of the posters here are adults and can fend for themselves
regarding their own concerns, and I'm not interested in being the list
mom.


It is not about being the list's mom. It's about approaching
people, whom you would like to influence in changing their
behaviour, in a way that is more likely to gain you their
good will towards you.

If what you want is indeed a positive and welcoming atmosphere,
I would say such an approach would be more effective in getting
it.


Why should I care about the rational you gave. It is based on
your own assumptions, on how you weight the possible outcomes against
each other. Someone who doesn't care about trolls or even may
enjoy observing a heated exchange may come to an entirely different
conclusion on what behaviour is good for the group in case he
extrapolated his own preferences on the group.

And you may not have purposely made things up to justify your
proposal, but how you went about it, that is probably what you
actually did. Because that is what we as humans generally do
in this kind of situations.


Made things up?  This response to the situation is not just our own
assumptions at work, but the collective experience of the Internet,
going back decades.


The collective experience of theachers is that punishment for bad 
performance works, despite research showing otherwise.


Besides I was talking about rurpy's basic assumptions about what
the costs would be for various subgroups in different scenario's.
These were all based on his own interpretations. What he did
was trying to imagine how costly it would feel for him, should
he have be in a particular situation with a particular preference.
As far as I can see he didn't ask other people what their preference
was and how costly particular situations would feel to them.

So yes he made those up. Now I accept he was trying to get at an
honest estimation of factors involved, but human biases working
as they do, there is little reason to think his result is in
any way objective or useful.


Now as far as I am concerned you can be as blunt as you want to
be. I just don't understand why you think you should be so
careful to Nikos, while at the same time you saw no need for
careful wording here.


Nobody is suggesting that we should make any effort to try to avoid
hurting Nikos' feelings, contrary to what you seem to be implying
here.


I am implying nothing. I'm just pointing out the difference between
how rurpy explains we should behave towards Nikos and how he behaved
towards the flamers. If there is some sort of implication it is with
rurpy in that difference and not with me in me pointing it out.


Be as blunt as you want with him, but please recognize that
troll baiting /does not work/ as a means of making the troll go away
and only serves to further degrade the list.


It's not clear to me what you are precisely saying here. Do you think
being blunt is a form of troll baiting or not? Because my impression
of those who are bothered by the flamers, was that being blunt was just
a form of troll baiting and would just cause similar kind of list 
degradation.


Do you think being blunt is a good way in keeping a welcoming and
postive atmosphere in this group?


Second, I *am* concerned in that I find a lot of Nikos's responses
frustrating and I realize other people feel the same.


Stop telling you are concerned. Start showing.


How?  By joining in with the flaming and being just as
counter-productive?


I am not so sure it would be counter-productive. A joint flaming
of a troll can be an effective way to increase coherence in a
group.


I'm not going to try to show my concern because
it is not important to me whether others can see it.


I doubt that is a good way in keeping this group positive
and welcoming. But it is your choice.


Do you have mumbers on that? Otherwise those three decades of internet
don't mean much.


The only actual study on the topic that I'm aware of is this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/13/internet-trolls-improbable-research


Thanks for this. Unfortunatly there is not much to rely on. The only 
thing I can get from this, is 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 25-06-13 19:25, Ian Kelly schreef:

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be  wrote:

What do you mean with not a participant in the past? As far
as I can see his first appearance was in dec 2011. That is
over a year ago. It also seems that he always find people
willing to engage with him. Is how the group treats him
not also an aspect in deciding whether he belongs or not?


Although it's true that he's been around for a while, it has in my
mind only been very recently that his posts have started to become a
problem.


Fine. All the more reason to regard him as part of the group rather
than outside the group IMO.

--
Antoon Pardon
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 But you didn't even go to the trouble of trying to find out
 what those concerns would be and how strong people feel about
 them. You just took your assumptions about those concerns for
 granted and proceeded from there.

Jumping back in here, I for one don't give a hoot about their
concerns, beyond the basic assumption that they feel the same way I do
about Nikos' threads and wish that he would leave.  I just want to
maintain a positive and welcoming atmosphere around here.  I expect
that most of the posters here are adults and can fend for themselves
regarding their own concerns, and I'm not interested in being the list
mom.  You on the other hand seem to want to treat the list like a
playground.  If that's what you want to do, then by all means go for
it; just leave me out of it.

 If you need some sort of public show, then I will publicly
 state that I too have been very frustrated with many of
 Nikos' posts and I am greatly sympathetic to the desire to
 tell the SOB to go take a flying fuck.  That not withstanding
 I believe that responding that way does not help anything
 and is destructive.


 You really should learn the difference between telling and showing.

Copy...

 Why should I care about the rational you gave. It is based on
 your own assumptions, on how you weight the possible outcomes against
 each other. Someone who doesn't care about trolls or even may
 enjoy observing a heated exchange may come to an entirely different
 conclusion on what behaviour is good for the group in case he
 extrapolated his own preferences on the group.

 And you may not have purposely made things up to justify your
 proposal, but how you went about it, that is probably what you
 actually did. Because that is what we as humans generally do
 in this kind of situations.

Made things up?  This response to the situation is not just our own
assumptions at work, but the collective experience of the Internet,
going back decades.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Don%27t_feed_the_Troll

 Now as far as I am concerned you can be as blunt as you want to
 be. I just don't understand why you think you should be so
 careful to Nikos, while at the same time you saw no need for
 careful wording here.

Nobody is suggesting that we should make any effort to try to avoid
hurting Nikos' feelings, contrary to what you seem to be implying
here.  Be as blunt as you want with him, but please recognize that
troll baiting /does not work/ as a means of making the troll go away
and only serves to further degrade the list.

Nor do I think that it is a bad thing to be blunt about it with those
who are dampening the environment.  As I said above, the posters here
are mostly adults, most of whom I think are not so emotionally fragile
that they would wilt because of a simple reprimand on the Internet (or
if they really /can't/ take it, then perhaps they should have thought
about that before they started dishing it).

 Your argument is next to useless. You rarely make people change behaviour by
 showing your argument is correct. If your goal is influencing people into
 behaving more as you would like, focussing
 on your argument instead of empathising on their frustration is
 more likely to antagonise the people whose behaviour you would
 like to change than to get them to cooperate.

...paste.

You really should learn the difference between telling and showing.

 Second, I *am* concerned in that I find a lot of Nikos's responses
 frustrating and I realize other people feel the same.

 Stop telling you are concerned. Start showing.

How?  By joining in with the flaming and being just as
counter-productive?  I'm not going to try to show my concern because
it is not important to me whether others can see it.

 But that
 does not mean that giving into emotion and filling this group
 up with all sort of negative hostile hate-mail is the right thing
 to do.  Silence is a better option overall (IMO).  There are three
 decades of internet experience that agree.

 Do you have mumbers on that? Otherwise those three decades of internet
 don't mean much.

The only actual study on the topic that I'm aware of is this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/13/internet-trolls-improbable-research
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 What do you mean with not a participant in the past? As far
 as I can see his first appearance was in dec 2011. That is
 over a year ago. It also seems that he always find people
 willing to engage with him. Is how the group treats him
 not also an aspect in deciding whether he belongs or not?

Although it's true that he's been around for a while, it has in my
mind only been very recently that his posts have started to become a
problem.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 25-06-13 17:56, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

On 06/24/2013 07:37 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:

Op 23-06-13 16:29, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

On 06/21/2013 01:32 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:

Op 19-06-13 23:13, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

[...]

I put forward what I thought was a rational way of thinking
about the problem that balances the competing desires.  You
reject it with, too easy to neglect the concerns of individuals
or small groups.  I point out that I don't see any way of
satisfying the concerns of individuals or small groups and
the majority and you accuse me going for debating points.


But you didn't even go to the trouble of trying to find out
what those concerns would be and how strong people feel about
them. You just took your assumptions about those concerns for
granted and proceeded from there.



Second having concerns and showing them are two different things.
It may be possible that you have a lot of concerns for the flamers,
that doesn't mean you actually showed them.


If you need some sort of public show, then I will publicly
state that I too have been very frustrated with many of
Nikos' posts and I am greatly sympathetic to the desire to
tell the SOB to go take a flying fuck.  That not withstanding
I believe that responding that way does not help anything
and is destructive.


You really should learn the difference between telling and showing.


So I'll stand by my statement that you show no concern for the
discomfort of this group you are contributing to. As far as I
can see your only concern is make them behave according to the
solution, you arrived at without any contribution from themselves.


The operative part there is: as far as you can see.


There seem to be two options. Either there is nothing to see or
I missed it, in which case this would have been a very good
opportunity to point it out.


You are free to ignore that and do what you want.
But remember to tell me again how *I* have no concern for
others.


This is not a competion in trying to make the other look less
concerned than the other. I don't care whether or not you
have concerns for others. I'm just pointing out that if you
would like to influence the behaviour of others in a direction
you'd prefer, then you'd better show concerns about what drives
them to that behaviour.



I don't think that just stating that some group of people
are somehow to blame according to some conclusion that logically
followed from assumptions you could choose, and that thus this
other group has to adapt its behaviour while you can carry on
as usual, is such a good way either.


You persist in presenting the situation as though I am just
making things up to justify a proposal that makes my own
use of the group easier.  You ignore the rational I gave and
the experience of countless internet users over the history
of the internet.


Why should I care about the rational you gave. It is based on
your own assumptions, on how you weight the possible outcomes against
each other. Someone who doesn't care about trolls or even may
enjoy observing a heated exchange may come to an entirely different
conclusion on what behaviour is good for the group in case he
extrapolated his own preferences on the group.

And you may not have purposely made things up to justify your
proposal, but how you went about it, that is probably what you
actually did. Because that is what we as humans generally do
in this kind of situations.


You sure seem awful careful with regards to someone you view as being
outside the volition of the group while a the same time seeing nothing
wrong with being very blunt about some subgroup of people you seem to
consider inside the volition of the group, and whith which you have
a particular problem.


Again this is an no concern argument.
Additionally...
It is wrong.

I've not advocated being very blunt to those who aggravate
the situation by responding to trolling with flames and more
aggression.


I didn't mean you advocated it. I mean that you actually have been
blunt about these people. These are you words:

] The primary problem is a (relatively small) number of people
] who respond to every post by Nikos with a barrage of insults,
] demands, (what they think are) witty repartee, hints intended
] to make Nikos learn something, useless (to Nikos) links,
] new threads to discuss the Nikos problem, and other trash
] that is far more obnoxious that anything Nikos posts and just
] serves to egg him on.

Now as far as I am concerned you can be as blunt as you want to
be. I just don't understand why you think you should be so
careful to Nikos, while at the same time you saw no need for
careful wording here.



A disproportionate number of your arguments above are that I am
not concerned about those (including you) who are deeply frustrated
with Nikos' bad behavior.


No, I point out that your behaviour doesn't *show* any such concern.


First, what my internal emotions (concern) are or are not is
irrelevant -- what I have expressed in my 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/24/2013 07:37 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 23-06-13 16:29, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/21/2013 01:32 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 19-06-13 23:13, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
[...]
Note: although I clipped the group volition 
paragraphs, thank you for pointing out that Nikos posts
go back to dec 2011.  I was not aware of that.

 Possibly. But I don't consider utiltarism such a good measuring
 stick for these kind of situations. Too easy to neglect the
 concerns of individuals or small groups.

 And your alternative that doesn't neglect concerns of individuals
 or small groups would be what?  Something that neglects the concerns
 of the majority?  I would love to see a proposed solution that 
 satisfies the concerns of every individual and group here.  And
 of course since you maintain above that trolls themselves are 
 legitimate members of the newsgroup, it should also satisfy their
 desires as well.  But sadly, in the real world there are conflicting 
 desires so I don't think your alternative exists. 
 
 Are you trying to have a meaningful conversation or going for debating
 points? I didn't claim to have a solution that will satisfy everyone.
 But I do think there are better ways in handling this kind of situation
 other than one group of people by some kind of introspection coming to
 a conclusion of how best to deal with it, simply trying to argue others
 into compliance. Especially if this solution puts none of the burden on
 their own shoulders but all on others.

I put forward what I thought was a rational way of thinking 
about the problem that balances the competing desires.  You 
reject it with, too easy to neglect the concerns of individuals 
or small groups.  I point out that I don't see any way of 
satisfying the concerns of individuals or small groups and
the majority and you accuse me going for debating points. 

If you don't wish to address the issue directly then, please 
do so indirectly by telling how your solution, to inundate the 
offender (and group in general) with a deluge of flames, somehow
satisfies the concerns of individuals or small groups and of 
the majority.

The only rational conclusion I can draw is that you either
don't care about the majority or you think the majority of 
people here have no problem with masses of flamage and hostile 
and aggressive posts.

 So the question to answer is: how do those different policies
 affect the cost/benefits of the different groups and which one
 leads to the greatest good for the most?

 And I don't think that is the right question. It leads to people
 who are less annoyed by this kind of behaviour to ignore or brush
 of people who are more annoyed and attempts by the former to
 make the latter shoulder the full burden while not bearing any
 costs themselves and even behaving in such a way as to increase
 the annoyance of the latter group.

 Addressed in more detail below.  No brushing off involved, 
 only an attempt at the most reasonable tradeoff for everybody 
 (which means not agreeing to the vigilantes desire to engage 
 in flame wars with people that annoy them.) 
 
 Yes, brushing off. Your attempt seems to consist solely on
 some kind of intropspection in which you came to some kind
 of conclusion and attempts to argue people into compliance.
 
 As far as I can see you didn't try to understand the view
 of others but just tried to convice them of the truth of
 your conclusion. That looks like brushing off to me.

This is a no concern argument.

Many of your following points are effectively the same argument,
so I will mark them all with the preceding sentence and address
them all at the end.

[...snip ...]
 So what is obvious help to you may not be so much so to 
 the recipient and in the face of all these differences 
 IMO tolerance is very helpful.  

 Again I'm not claiming that my interpretation of Nikos'
 responses must be correct; I may be wrong and he may be
 reading this and laughing his ass off at my naivete, but 
 I reject your certainty that your reading as pure troll is
 the only correct one.  And even if I am wrong in this particular
 case, I think tolerance is helpful for maintaining a non-
 hostile environment in general.
 
 What certainty? I don't claim certainty in Nikos being a pure
 troll. I state that it doesn't matter to me.

Yes, my mistake.

 As I said earlier
 intend is not magic and even if Nikos would not be a troll
 but still behaves largely as one, especially after over one
 year of presence I wonder what meaningful difference there is
 between a real troll and someone who just behave very troll
 like?

Different kinds of trolls (with different motivations) one
can guess will respond differently.  A classic troll motivated 
almost exclusively by a desire to get attention and instigate 
discord will be energized by the hostile responses you propose.

However someone like Nikos who is actually looking for help
and some of who's trolling may be reaction to hostility 
received, might react 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 23-06-13 16:29, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

 On 06/21/2013 01:32 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 19-06-13 23:13, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 The troll is outside the volition of the group and so his
 appearance is effectively an act of nature.

 This seems a rather artificial division. Especially because the
 immediate cause that led to this discussion is Nikos. As the
 situation is now I see very little reason to exclude Nikos
 from the group. He has made a substantial number of contribution
 and has received a substantial number of replies. So on what
 grounds would you put Nikos outside the volition of this group?

 made contributions?  I think you mean asked questions.
 He has not (as far as I tell) been a participant here in
 the past, has not tried to help or participated in any other 
 threads, seems to be interested only in getting his own 
 problems solved, and not shown many signs of concern with 
 any form of group consensus(es), not responded to requests.  
 Isn't all that in large part the basis of your objection 
 to him?  Outside the volition of this group seems like 
 a reasonable description to me. 

What do you mean with not a participant in the past? As far
as I can see his first appearance was in dec 2011. That is
over a year ago. It also seems that he always find people
willing to engage with him. Is how the group treats him
not also an aspect in deciding whether he belongs or not?


But if you want to classify Nikos as somehow incorrigible
and hope for better from others, I can understand that.
I just have a harder time understanding why you seem to
make it some kind of priority that people in the group
should still be able to communicate with this person with
only a minimum of hassle.


 Possibly. But I don't consider utiltarism such a good measuring
 stick for these kind of situations. Too easy to neglect the
 concerns of individuals or small groups.

 And your alternative that doesn't neglect concerns of individuals
 or small groups would be what?  Something that neglects the concerns
 of the majority?  I would love to see a proposed solution that 
 satisfies the concerns of every individual and group here.  And
 of course since you maintain above that trolls themselves are 
 legitimate members of the newsgroup, it should also satisfy their
 desires as well.  But sadly, in the real world there are conflicting 
 desires so I don't think your alternative exists. 

Are you trying to have a meaningful conversation or going for debating
points? I didn't claim to have a solution that will satisfy everyone.
But I do think there are better ways in handling this kind of situation
other than one group of people by some kind of introspection coming to
a conclusion of how best to deal with it, simply trying to argue others
into compliance. Especially if this solution puts none of the burden on
their own shoulders but all on others.


 So the question to answer is: how do those different policies
 affect the cost/benefits of the different groups and which one
 leads to the greatest good for the most?

 And I don't think that is the right question. It leads to people
 who are less annoyed by this kind of behaviour to ignore or brush
 of people who are more annoyed and attempts by the former to
 make the latter shoulder the full burden while not bearing any
 costs themselves and even behaving in such a way as to increase
 the annoyance of the latter group.

 Addressed in more detail below.  No brushing off involved, 
 only an attempt at the most reasonable tradeoff for everybody 
 (which means not agreeing to the vigilantes desire to engage 
 in flame wars with people that annoy them.) 

Yes, brushing off. Your attempt seems to consist solely on
some kind of intropspection in which you came to some kind
of conclusion and attempts to argue people into compliance.

As far as I can see you didn't try to understand the view
of others but just tried to convice them of the truth of
your conclusion. That looks like brushing off to me.


 I have said something that can be interpretted as the first.
 But I made it clear because Nikos had allready receiced a
 ton of help like links of which he showed very little interest
 in actually reading. My boycot was meant for until he could
 show some results of him actively trying to solve his problems
 instead of us keeping to spoon feed him.

 What you see as a ton of help like links I submit did 
 not seem that way to Nikos.  Consider the help in one 
 thread:
  | This is all you need to read:
  |  http://docs.python.org/2/reference/expressions.html#boolean-operations 
 Ignoring that the link is to Python2 while Nikos was 
 using Python3 (and clearly did understand enough about the
 differences to assume it was still relevant), the contents
 start with In the context of Boolean operations... when
 Nikos' confusion (IIRC) was due to not understanding even 
 the concept of a boolean context and the distinction 
 between True/False and true/false (which is not even 
 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/21/2013 01:32 PM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 19-06-13 23:13, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/19/2013 04:57 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 19-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
 you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
 the troll (Nikos) but the others. I only made the remark that
 you can't claim the troll is not a problem if he provokes
 behaviour you find problematic.
 And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
 fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
 troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
 there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
 both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
 of blame on the responders.

 No, blame implies assumption of a particular point of
 view.  From a troll's viewpoint, newsgroup participants that
 *don't* respond are to blame because they deprive the troll
 of his fun.

 Our viewpoint is that of newsgroup participants.  We assume
 they have volition, else this whole thread is pointless.
 Since they have a choice of how to respond, then if they
 chose to respond in a way that produces an undesirable outcome,
 then it is fair blame them.

 The troll is outside the volition of the group and so his
 appearance is effectively an act of nature.
 
 This seems a rather artificial division. Especially because the
 immediate cause that led to this discussion is Nikos. As the
 situation is now I see very little reason to exclude Nikos
 from the group. He has made a substantial number of contribution
 and has received a substantial number of replies. So on what
 grounds would you put Nikos outside the volition of this group?

made contributions?  I think you mean asked questions.
He has not (as far as I tell) been a participant here in
the past, has not tried to help or participated in any other 
threads, seems to be interested only in getting his own 
problems solved, and not shown many signs of concern with 
any form of group consensus(es), not responded to requests.  
Isn't all that in large part the basis of your objection 
to him?  Outside the volition of this group seems like 
a reasonable description to me.

 I am not drawing the line for them, I am drawing it for
 me.  I think you see a non-existent conflict because you are
 assume there is only one line.  I do not make that assumption.

 If you think Nikos has crossed your line, then I acknowledge
 your right not to help him.  I even acknowledge your right
 to flame him and encourage others to do so.

 My argument is that if you exercise your right (the flamage
 part) the results on the newsgroup, when considered on a
 best outcome for the most people basis, will be less good
 than if you choose not to exercise your right.
 
 Possibly. But I don't consider utiltarism such a good measuring
 stick for these kind of situations. Too easy to neglect the
 concerns of individuals or small groups.

And your alternative that doesn't neglect concerns of individuals
or small groups would be what?  Something that neglects the concerns
of the majority?  I would love to see a proposed solution that 
satisfies the concerns of every individual and group here.  And
of course since you maintain above that trolls themselves are 
legitimate members of the newsgroup, it should also satisfy their
desires as well.  But sadly, in the real world there are conflicting 
desires so I don't think your alternative exists.

 The costs are different in magnitude.  Roughly:

 1.People willing to read and possibly respond helpfully
to Nikos.
 2.People annoyed by Nikos who want him gone and don't want to
see anything by him or in his threads.
 (and if people find you convincing)
 3.People annoyed by Nikos but willing to read his threads in
order to send antagonistic posts.

 If people ignore your call to spam Nikos with antagonistic
 posts (and stop the considerable amount of such activity
 already occurring) then the costs (difference compared to
 a no-Nikos newsgroup) might be:

   Group 1: 0
   Group 2: 1 (killfile Nikos and kill or skip his new threads
when encountered.)

 If people continue to send both unhelpful and antagonistic
 posts to Nikos:

   Group 1: 5 (can't killfile posters because they post in other
non-Nikos threads.  Have to skip large volume of junk
posts based on visual peek at contents or recognition
of poster as a vigilante.)
   Group 2: 1 (killfile Nikos and kill or skip his new threads
when encountered.)
 
 I don't accept this as the way costs should be compared? Why are
 you adding the costs of the flamers together? Each flamer is
 an individual who should only be responsible for his own
 contribution. 

I haven't a clue what you mean by this.  What does 
responsible have to do with it?

They are added because each flame post imposes a cost to 
skip so the total cost is roughly the sum 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 21-06-13 04:40, Ian Kelly schreef:

 On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Antoon Pardon
 antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you
 are equivocating on expect. Expect can mean you will be surprised
 if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or
 disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen.

 Perhaps I am, but it doesn't change my argument in any way.  When a
 troll shows up I am not happy about it, but I am not disappointed
 either, because Trolls Happen.  I am disappointed when members of the
 community act in ways that are detrimental to the community.  Better?

But that last one doesn't ring true. Enabling a troll is also acting
in a way that is detrimental to the community. But I haven't seen
you express disappointment in that.

Those that expressed their disappointment with the enabling behaviour
were more or less told they should deal with it. So tell me, why
should your disappointment merrit more consideration?


 The second problem is that I find it a one sided view. If you want
 a courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
 list, shouldn't you also be careful in not encouraging trollish
 behaviour? Being courteous to or cooperating with someone behaving
 trollishly, is IMO enabling that kind of behaviour and so those
 doing so, seem to already throw those priciples out the window because
 they are cooperating with the troll who is making this list less
 courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
 for a significant number of people.

 You'll note that I haven't engaged Nikos at all in some time.  That's
 because I think he's a troll.  I think though that those who are
 continuing to help him do so because they do not think that he is a
 troll.  I am not going to try to thrust my own opinion of who is or is
 not a troll and who can or cannot be given help upon the list -- that
 is their opinion, they are entitled to it, and maybe they see
 something in the exchange that I don't. 

That doesn't change one bit of the fact they are enabling someone
who exhibits assholery behaviour. Who since he started here has
regularly changed his identity, yet these enablers keep suggesting
that those who are bothered by him should just killfile him. If
they were serious with that suggestion they at least could have
told Nikos they were only going to reply to one specific identity.


 That is different in my eyes from somebody who does identify Nikos as
 a troll and then goes on to egg him on anyway, whether it be courteous
 or belligerent.


In my eyes that is a difference that only counts at the start of
an exchange. Helping others allthough a fine goal by itself is not
something that can be used to justify any means. If you learn that
the person you are helping is showing assholery behaviour and how
you are helping, sure looks like encouraging that assholery behaviour.
When you decide to mostly ignore that, you are showing no concern
for the other contributers on the list and are acting in a way
that is detrimental to the community.

If you want the python list to be a hospitable place, you have
to be attentive for signals from other contributors that the
level of hospitability is decreasing for them. If you ignore
them or brush them off you then risk loosing them as cooperators
to that goal. So if later you find the level of hospitability
is decreasing for you, you are more likely to get ignored or
brushed off too.


-- 

Antoon Pardon

 


-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 3:18 AM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 Op 21-06-13 04:40, Ian Kelly schreef:

 On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Antoon Pardon
 antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you
 are equivocating on expect. Expect can mean you will be surprised
 if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or
 disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen.

 Perhaps I am, but it doesn't change my argument in any way.  When a
 troll shows up I am not happy about it, but I am not disappointed
 either, because Trolls Happen.  I am disappointed when members of the
 community act in ways that are detrimental to the community.  Better?

 But that last one doesn't ring true. Enabling a troll is also acting
 in a way that is detrimental to the community. But I haven't seen
 you express disappointment in that.

I've already explained why that is.  First, it's less anguish to
kill-file one troll than several vitriolic regulars (and I realize
that he keeps changing his name, but fortunately I think he's only
used three different /addresses/ in the time that he's been posting).
Second, I don't want to bully anybody into not trying to help a user
where they want to and believe that they can.  It may be enabling
for the troll, but it's unhealthy for the list in general.

 Those that expressed their disappointment with the enabling behaviour
 were more or less told they should deal with it. So tell me, why
 should your disappointment merrit more consideration?

When did I ever say that it should?  I'm just putting my own opinions
on the subject out there.

 If you want the python list to be a hospitable place, you have
 to be attentive for signals from other contributors that the
 level of hospitability is decreasing for them. If you ignore
 them or brush them off you then risk loosing them as cooperators
 to that goal. So if later you find the level of hospitability
 is decreasing for you, you are more likely to get ignored or
 brushed off too.

The level of hospitality is already decreasing for me.  That's why I'm
speaking up.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rusi]

On Friday, June 21, 2013 9:49:01 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:

 The level of hospitality is already decreasing for me.  That's why I'm
 speaking up.

I believe that this can be a point of unanimity -- The level of hospitality 
having gone down enough, I felt the need to speak up.

And with the immediate factor(s) for this in abeyance for the last couple of 
days, maybe we can shelve this and move on?

Just a suggestion and a request to all...
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 19-06-13 23:13, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

On 06/19/2013 04:57 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:

Op 19-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

On 06/18/2013 02:22 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:



I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
the troll (Nikos) but the others. I only made the remark that
you can't claim the troll is not a problem if he provokes
behaviour you find problematic.
And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
of blame on the responders.


No, blame implies assumption of a particular point of
view.  From a troll's viewpoint, newsgroup participants that
*don't* respond are to blame because they deprive the troll
of his fun.

Our viewpoint is that of newsgroup participants.  We assume
they have volition, else this whole thread is pointless.
Since they have a choice of how to respond, then if they
chose to respond in a way that produces an undesirable outcome,
then it is fair blame them.

The troll is outside the volition of the group and so his
appearance is effectively an act of nature.


This seems a rather artificial division. Especially because the
immediate cause that led to this discussion is Nikos. As the
situation is now I see very little reason to exclude Nikos
from the group. He has made a substantial number of contribution
and has received a substantial number of replies. So on what
grounds would you put Nikos outside the volition of this group?


I am not drawing the line for them, I am drawing it for
me.  I think you see a non-existent conflict because you are
assume there is only one line.  I do not make that assumption.

If you think Nikos has crossed your line, then I acknowledge
your right not to help him.  I even acknowledge your right
to flame him and encourage others to do so.

My argument is that if you exercise your right (the flamage
part) the results on the newsgroup, when considered on a
best outcome for the most people basis, will be less good
than if you choose not to exercise your right.


Possibly. But I don't consider utiltarism such a good measuring
stick for these kind of situations. Too easy to neglect the
concerns of individuals or small groups.


The costs are different in magnitude.  Roughly:

1.People willing to read and possibly respond helpfully
   to Nikos.
2.People annoyed by Nikos who want him gone and don't want to
   see anything by him or in his threads.
(and if people find you convincing)
3.People annoyed by Nikos but willing to read his threads in
   order to send antagonistic posts.

If people ignore your call to spam Nikos with antagonistic
posts (and stop the considerable amount of such activity
already occurring) then the costs (difference compared to
a no-Nikos newsgroup) might be:

  Group 1: 0
  Group 2: 1 (killfile Nikos and kill or skip his new threads
   when encountered.)

If people continue to send both unhelpful and antagonistic
posts to Nikos:

  Group 1: 5 (can't killfile posters because they post in other
   non-Nikos threads.  Have to skip large volume of junk
   posts based on visual peek at contents or recognition
   of poster as a vigilante.)
  Group 2: 1 (killfile Nikos and kill or skip his new threads
   when encountered.)


I don't accept this as the way costs should be compared? Why are
you adding the costs of the flamers together? Each flamer is
an individual who should only be responsible for his own
contribution. As such it seems that the cost each flamer
is inducing is comparable to the cost Nikos is inducing.


As for those annoyed by Nikos but who
can't easily filter the valuable contributions
in [a Nikos] thread from the nth repeated answer to the same
question
how is that different from any non-Nikos thread other than that
your proposed action that makes it harder?


It is different because Non-Nikos threads in general don't contain
so many repeated questions as Nikos threads.


Of course.  We all do that subconsciously every time we
read a newsgroup.  But that is not what we are discussing

We are discussing the effects of two different policies
of different interest groups on the newsgroup.  You advocate
a policy of not responding helpfully and responding aggressively
to those exhibiting undesirable behavior where undesirable
is defined by you or some vague group consensus.

I advocate a policy not responding aggressively at all and
responding helpfully or not at all based on a personal evaluation
of the undesirable behavior.

So the question to answer is: how do those different policies
affect the cost/benefits of the different groups and which one
leads to the greatest good for the most?


And I don't think that is the right 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 19-06-13 20:40, Ian Kelly schreef:

 On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Antoon Pardon
 antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
 you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
 the troll (Nikos) but the others.
 Count me among those who feel this way. 
Well You are entitled to your judgement, but so are those who
feel differently. For now I don't see a reason to favor your
judgement over others.


 And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
 fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
 troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
 there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
 both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
 of blame on the responders.
 No, I don't agree with that at all.  Trolls are to be expected because
 there will always be those out in the world who want to have a little
 fun and have no regard for either the list or those who use it.  There
 is nothing to be done about that.  On the other hand, the flamers
 responding to the trolls are regular contributers to the list who
 presumably do care about keeping the list courteous, respectful,
 welcoming and enjoyable to participate in.  Toward that end, I do not
 think it is at all unreasonable to expect posters not to throw those
 principles out the window just because a troll showed up.
There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you
are equivocating on expect. Expect can mean you will be surprised
if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or
disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen.

Now I won't feel surprise when a troll turns up and I also won't feel
surprise when the troll attracts flamers and it is my guess this is
the meaning you use when you write trolls are to be expected. I doubt
you want to express indignation or disappointment with the prospect
of no trolls showing up. But then you seem to switch meaning when
you talk about the flamers. There it sure looks like you are expressing
indignation at the prospect of community members not upholding the
principles you find important.

The second problem is that I find it a one sided view. If you want
a courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
list, shouldn't you also be careful in not encouraging trollish
behaviour? Being courteous to or cooperating with someone behaving
trollishly, is IMO enabling that kind of behaviour and so those
doing so, seem to already throw those priciples out the window because
they are cooperating with the troll who is making this list less
courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
for a significant number of people.

There is also the aspect that you can only try to keep something
if you have the feeling it is still present. If contributers 
start feeling this list is no longer the hospitable place it once
was, they feel less inclined to do the effort themselves. If
you'd like people not to throw out certain principles you'd better
make sure they don't feel those principles have already been thrown
out. 


 Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them
 either. If you think others have no business drawing the line
 for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you
 have no business drawing such a line yourself.
 Ultimately there is no enforcement on this list, and all of us must
 draw our own lines.  The question then is: will one draw the line
 somewhere that is respectful of the list and promotes positive
 contributions, or somewhere that will push others toward kill-filing
 one and/or giving up on the list altogether?
Indeed, and how is it promoting positive contributions if you answer
trollish contributions about the same way as you do interesting 
contributions? 


 So their ideal solution is to flame him until he goes away, with the
 result being that the threads don't exist to begin with?  If it's
 difficult to filter valuable contributions from a thread while
 trying to ignore every other post, think how much harder it will be to
 got those same valuable contributions from a thread that doesn't
 exist in the first place. 
Those valuable contributions will then probably turn up in an other
thread. One that isn't a resource hog for all contributors.


 I don't know it is that clear. I have the impression it can be
 rather effective in cases where the whole community makes it
 clear trolls are not welcome. Of course if part of the community
 is more bothered by those making trolls feel unwelcome than by
 the trolls themselves, such strive will of course attract them.
 I don't think you understand the troll mindset.  They don't care
 whether the community does or does not welcome them, because they
 don't view themselves as part of the community.  They just want
 affirmation and attention, which is exactly what they get when
 somebody flames them.  They may even find it 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you
 are equivocating on expect. Expect can mean you will be surprised
 if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or
 disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen.

Perhaps I am, but it doesn't change my argument in any way.  When a
troll shows up I am not happy about it, but I am not disappointed
either, because Trolls Happen.  I am disappointed when members of the
community act in ways that are detrimental to the community.  Better?

 The second problem is that I find it a one sided view. If you want
 a courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
 list, shouldn't you also be careful in not encouraging trollish
 behaviour? Being courteous to or cooperating with someone behaving
 trollishly, is IMO enabling that kind of behaviour and so those
 doing so, seem to already throw those priciples out the window because
 they are cooperating with the troll who is making this list less
 courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
 for a significant number of people.

You'll note that I haven't engaged Nikos at all in some time.  That's
because I think he's a troll.  I think though that those who are
continuing to help him do so because they do not think that he is a
troll.  I am not going to try to thrust my own opinion of who is or is
not a troll and who can or cannot be given help upon the list -- that
is their opinion, they are entitled to it, and maybe they see
something in the exchange that I don't.

That is different in my eyes from somebody who does identify Nikos as
a troll and then goes on to egg him on anyway, whether it be courteous
or belligerent.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 1:49 PM,  ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On 06/18/2013 01:21 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:39 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 tl;dr Stop acting like a troll and we'll stop perceiving you as such.

 This being Python-list, we duck-type. You don't have to declare that
 you're a troll, like you would in C; you just react like a troll and
 we'll treat you as one. We never ask are you a troll, we just ask
 do you quack like a troll.

 People are much more complex than Python objects.  While
 duck-typing is a useful heuristic it does not guarantee
 accurate results.  And keep in mind that stereotyping and
 racial profiling are forms of duck typing.  You need to
 be careful when duck-typing people.

On the contrary, stereotyping is You are-a quality, therefore you
will behave in manner. This is the opposite: You behave like a
troll, therefore you are equivalent to a troll. Imagine if we treated
all those with green skin who live under bridges as trolls, no matter
how good their contributions...

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:07:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

 On the contrary, stereotyping is You are-a quality, therefore you
 will behave in manner. 

I don't think that's how stereotypes usually work.

He wears a turban, therefore he's an Arab terrorist.

He's wearing black, has pale skin, listens to that weird goth music I 
don't like, therefore he's a school-shooter.

She's good looking and wears short skirts, therefore she's a slut.

He's wearing a police uniform, therefore he's a policeman.



-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 17:07:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

 On the contrary, stereotyping is You are-a quality, therefore you
 will behave in manner.

 I don't think that's how stereotypes usually work.

 He wears a turban, therefore he's an Arab terrorist.

Right, my terminology was a little sloppy but I was thinking more in
terms of one of the most common forms of stereotyping: racism. You
have skin of this colour, therefore you are inferior or a criminal or
whatever. The quality is something visible, and the
expectation/assumption is utterly unrelated to it.

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 19-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/18/2013 02:22 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 19:56, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 I was using the photodetector/light system as a emotion-free 
 analog of the troll/troll-feeders positive feedback system for 
 which you claimed it was clearly the troll's fault for initiating 
 the feedback condition.  My intent was to point out that cause 
 and effect are intertwined in feedback systems and it is equally
 valid to blame those responding to the troll for the end result
 as to blame the troll.  And, since occasional trolls are to 
 be expected, one is even justified in putting the preponderance 
 of blame on the responders.
I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
the troll (Nikos) but the others. I only made the remark that
you can't claim the troll is not a problem if he provokes
behaviour you find problematic.

And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
of blame on the responders.


 I don't care whether he has trouble developping debuging skills
 or not. Just as I don't care if someone has trouble learning
 to swim or not. If it is reasonable to expect those skill in
 a specific environment, you are just rude if you enter without
 those skill and expect others to get you out of the troubles
 you probably will fall victim to.
 *Drowning:
 I can understand your feeling but being realistic (whether 
 you care about that or not) it happens all the time and other 
 aspects of society accept that.  Around where I live we have 
 mountain rescue units to retrieve both competent people who 
 have had bad luck and total idiots who shouldn't be outside 
 without a guardian.  There are places the penalize the idiots 
 in various ways but both the practice and the line between 
 acceptable and unacceptable risk are controversial.  I don't
 accept you drawing the line for me, especially when I have 
 my own line formed by my own experience.
Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them
either. If you think others have no business drawing the line
for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you
have no business drawing such a line yourself.

 Those who are annoyed excessively by Nikos can (relatively) 
 easily ignore him by filtering him and his threads and 
 continue to participate in the group as it was before Nikos.  

 However, those who aren't bothered (as much) by him and are 
 willing to read or participate in his threads can not easily 
 ignore anti-Nikos hate posts because they can't easily filter 
 out those while leaving the non-hate ones and without also 
 filtering non-Nikos threads.  (Perhaps there are newsgroup 
 readers that allow one to killfile an individual but only in 
 certain threads but I doubt they are common.)
I find this a very one-sided view. Those annoyed excessively
by Nikos can't easily ignore him without a cost. There may
be people involved in such a tread they value and like to
read. They can't easily filter the valuable contributions
in such a thread from the nth repeated answer to the same
question either.

You ask of others they should tolerate this cost Nikos
brings on for them but you protest when you have to take
on this kind of cost yourself.

As far as I see you have just the same options as those
bothered by Nikos. Make some kind of cost benefit analysis
and decide on that basis whether you consider it worth your
while to continue reading/contributing to a particular
thread.

 Now its pretty clear that (in general) such hate-posts do not
 serve to drive away their target and often increase the volume
 and prolong the miscreant's stay.  So their main utility is to
 drive away those who wish to participate in Nikos' threads.
I don't know it is that clear. I have the impression it can be
rather effective in cases where the whole community makes it
clear trolls are not welcome. Of course if part of the community
is more bothered by those making trolls feel unwelcome than by
the trolls themselves, such strive will of course attract them. 

 While you may consider that a good thing, I consider it coercion
 and an attempt to forcibly restrict my free choice.  It is also
 the same behavior you accuse Nikos of -- being offensive to 
 force others to do what you want.  If you want me to go along
 with your proposal then convince me with rational arguments.
No I don't particularly consider that a good thing. I just find
your view one-sided. Yes indeed it is in some way the same behaviour
I accuse Nikos of. What they are doing is upping the cost for you
in participating in some threads, just as Nikos is upping the cost
for them in participating in some threads. The main 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ian Kelly]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Antoon Pardon
antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
 you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
 the troll (Nikos) but the others.

Count me among those who feel this way.

 And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
 fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
 troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
 there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
 both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
 of blame on the responders.

No, I don't agree with that at all.  Trolls are to be expected because
there will always be those out in the world who want to have a little
fun and have no regard for either the list or those who use it.  There
is nothing to be done about that.  On the other hand, the flamers
responding to the trolls are regular contributers to the list who
presumably do care about keeping the list courteous, respectful,
welcoming and enjoyable to participate in.  Toward that end, I do not
think it is at all unreasonable to expect posters not to throw those
principles out the window just because a troll showed up.

 Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them
 either. If you think others have no business drawing the line
 for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you
 have no business drawing such a line yourself.

Ultimately there is no enforcement on this list, and all of us must
draw our own lines.  The question then is: will one draw the line
somewhere that is respectful of the list and promotes positive
contributions, or somewhere that will push others toward kill-filing
one and/or giving up on the list altogether?

 I find this a very one-sided view. Those annoyed excessively
 by Nikos can't easily ignore him without a cost. There may
 be people involved in such a tread they value and like to
 read. They can't easily filter the valuable contributions
 in such a thread from the nth repeated answer to the same
 question either.

So their ideal solution is to flame him until he goes away, with the
result being that the threads don't exist to begin with?  If it's
difficult to filter valuable contributions from a thread while
trying to ignore every other post, think how much harder it will be to
got those same valuable contributions from a thread that doesn't
exist in the first place.  Finding anything of value here is clearly
not the goal of the flamers, and they might as well just kill the
threads at their end -- it's the same net effect for a lot less work,
and it doesn't impact the ability of anyone else to interact with
those threads if they might wish to.

 You ask of others they should tolerate this cost Nikos
 brings on for them but you protest when you have to take
 on this kind of cost yourself.

It's a lot easier to ignore a thread than it is to ignore specific
posters within specific threads.  And per my response above, your
argument that the flamers might not want to just ignore the thread
doesn't fly.

 I don't know it is that clear. I have the impression it can be
 rather effective in cases where the whole community makes it
 clear trolls are not welcome. Of course if part of the community
 is more bothered by those making trolls feel unwelcome than by
 the trolls themselves, such strive will of course attract them.

I don't think you understand the troll mindset.  They don't care
whether the community does or does not welcome them, because they
don't view themselves as part of the community.  They just want
affirmation and attention, which is exactly what they get when
somebody flames them.  They may even find it amusing that somebody can
get so worked up over their disingenuous posts, which then spurs them
on to continue trying to get the same reaction.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/19/2013 04:57 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 19-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/18/2013 02:22 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 19:56, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 I was using the photodetector/light system as a emotion-free 
 analog of the troll/troll-feeders positive feedback system for 
 which you claimed it was clearly the troll's fault for initiating 
 the feedback condition.  My intent was to point out that cause 
 and effect are intertwined in feedback systems and it is equally
 valid to blame those responding to the troll for the end result
 as to blame the troll.  And, since occasional trolls are to 
 be expected, one is even justified in putting the preponderance 
 of blame on the responders.
 I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
 you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
 the troll (Nikos) but the others. I only made the remark that
 you can't claim the troll is not a problem if he provokes
 behaviour you find problematic.
 And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
 fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
 troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
 there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
 both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
 of blame on the responders.

No, blame implies assumption of a particular point of
view.  From a troll's viewpoint, newsgroup participants that
*don't* respond are to blame because they deprive the troll
of his fun.

Our viewpoint is that of newsgroup participants.  We assume
they have volition, else this whole thread is pointless.
Since they have a choice of how to respond, then if they 
chose to respond in a way that produces an undesirable outcome, 
then it is fair blame them.

The troll is outside the volition of the group and so his
appearance is effectively an act of nature.

 I don't care whether he has trouble developping debuging skills
 or not. Just as I don't care if someone has trouble learning
 to swim or not. If it is reasonable to expect those skill in
 a specific environment, you are just rude if you enter without
 those skill and expect others to get you out of the troubles
 you probably will fall victim to.
 *Drowning:
 I can understand your feeling but being realistic (whether 
 you care about that or not) it happens all the time and other 
 aspects of society accept that.  Around where I live we have 
 mountain rescue units to retrieve both competent people who 
 have had bad luck and total idiots who shouldn't be outside 
 without a guardian.  There are places the penalize the idiots 
 in various ways but both the practice and the line between 
 acceptable and unacceptable risk are controversial.  I don't
 accept you drawing the line for me, especially when I have 
 my own line formed by my own experience.
 Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them
 either. If you think others have no business drawing the line
 for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you
 have no business drawing such a line yourself.

I am not drawing the line for them, I am drawing it for
me.  I think you see a non-existent conflict because you are 
assume there is only one line.  I do not make that assumption.

If you think Nikos has crossed your line, then I acknowledge 
your right not to help him.  I even acknowledge your right
to flame him and encourage others to do so. 

My argument is that if you exercise your right (the flamage
part) the results on the newsgroup, when considered on a 
best outcome for the most people basis, will be less good 
than if you choose not to exercise your right.

 Those who are annoyed excessively by Nikos can (relatively) 
 easily ignore him by filtering him and his threads and 
 continue to participate in the group as it was before Nikos.  

 However, those who aren't bothered (as much) by him and are 
 willing to read or participate in his threads can not easily 
 ignore anti-Nikos hate posts because they can't easily filter 
 out those while leaving the non-hate ones and without also 
 filtering non-Nikos threads.  (Perhaps there are newsgroup 
 readers that allow one to killfile an individual but only in 
 certain threads but I doubt they are common.)
 I find this a very one-sided view. Those annoyed excessively
 by Nikos can't easily ignore him without a cost. There may
 be people involved in such a tread they value and like to
 read. They can't easily filter the valuable contributions
 in such a thread from the nth repeated answer to the same
 question either.
 You ask of others they should tolerate this cost Nikos
 brings on for them but you protest when you have to take
 on this kind of cost yourself.

The costs are different in magnitude.  Roughly:

1.People willing to read and possibly respond helpfully
  to Nikos.
2.People annoyed by Nikos who want him gone and don't want to
  see anything by him or in his threads. 
(and if people find 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 12:40:15 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:

 On the other hand, the flamers responding to the trolls are regular
 contributers to the list who presumably do care about keeping the list
 courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in. 
 Toward that end, I do not think it is at all unreasonable to expect
 posters not to throw those principles out the window just because a
 troll showed up.

+1000



-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:03 AM,  ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 if Python had perfect documentation,
 he still wouldn't read it.

 If your crystal ball is that good, could you try using it
 to solve some of Nikos' problems?

I have done so, many times. Sometimes it helps, often it doesn't.
Once, it led me to accept his root password. You doubtless saw how
THAT went over.

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Guy Scree nob...@nowhere.com wrote:
 I recommend that all participants in this thread, especially Alex and
 Anton, research the term Pathological Altruism

I don't intend to buy a book about it, but based on flipping through a
few Google results and snippets, I'm thinking that this is the
Paladin fault that I know from Dungeons  Dragons. :)

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:39 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 tl;dr Stop acting like a troll and we'll stop perceiving you as such.

This being Python-list, we duck-type. You don't have to declare that
you're a troll, like you would in C; you just react like a troll and
we'll treat you as one. We never ask are you a troll, we just ask
do you quack like a troll.

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 17-06-13 19:56, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/17/2013 02:15 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/16/2013 02:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

 Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
 is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
 ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
 it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.
 The difficulty with trying to suppress such responses is that 
 the flamers get just as much pleasure from having a target
 to unrestrainedly spew their pent up anger and vile at, as 
 the troll gets from simulating that reaction.  The result is 
 a positive feedback loop.

 Well if asocial behaviour of one provokes asocial behaviour in
 others, you can't claim the problem is not the social behaviour
 of the first. 
 Sure I can.  If you have a photodetector that activates a 
 bright light when it detects a flash, you can blame the first
 flash for the fact that the bright light is on all the time.
 Or you can say that stray flashes are to be expected now 
 and then in the environment of this system and the fault 
 is responding to them with a bright light.
But that doesn't make sense. Your photodetector working as
it does, is just as expected as the happening of stray
flashes. There is no reason to differentiate between these
two in terms of being expected or not.
 

 As I said (and you disagree with below), I did see some
 attempts to adapt his behavior but it is not realistic to
 expect immediate acquiescence to every request made here, 
 especially given that a lot of them were/are bullshit.


I don't care whether it is realistic or not. If he can't conform
his behaviour in a reasonable way, he doesn't belong here. It
is not realistic to expect someone who is just learing to swim
to survive a jump in the deep. So we expect those people not
to jump in the deep. We don't tolerate them jumping in the deep
on the expectation that others will pull them out. That is
wat Nikos keeps doing here, jumping in the deep. And a lot of
people feel it is time we let him (metaphorically drown). 


 I speculate that half of his bad behavior is simple I want 
 now and don't care about your conventions.  The rest is a
 reaction to we're the alphas, your a beta attitude expressed
 by many here and later, overt hostility directed at him.  He 
 has changed some things -- his posting method, he's made an 
 effort to understand his encoding issues, etc.'
 I don't see that much change in his style. He just admitted
 not reading help files (because they are too technical for
 him). So essentialy he is asking we give him a beginners
 tutorial in everything he doesn't understand without much
 effort of him trying to understand things on his own and
 without much appreciation for the time of others.
 See my reply to ChrisA.
Your reply doesn't address his unwillingness to read the
documentation which was IMO rather apparant.

 My personal feeling is that he tends to ask on the list too 
 quickly, but I suspect he also does more than you're giving
 him credit for.  He seems to be naive (eg the password event), 
 open and honest so when he says he has been trying to fix 
 something for hours I am prone to believe him. 

I don't care. In the end he is still jumping in the deep
expecting others to drag him out. I don't care how much
he does. Just as I don't care how much energy someone has
put into learning to swim. If your skills are not adequate
you don't jump into the deep.


 I think his
 approach to fixing is to try making changes more or less at
 random, in part because he doesn't understand the docs (or
 doesn't look at them because they haven't made sense to him 
 in the past) and in part because he hasn't developed any 
 skill in debugging (a skill that I think most everyone here 
 takes for granted but which doesn't come naturally to some 
 people) and which also accounts for the poor formulation of
 his questions.
I don't care whether he has trouble developping debuging skills
or not. Just as I don't care if someone has trouble learning
to swim or not. If it is reasonable to expect those skill in
a specific environment, you are just rude if you enter without
those skill and expect others to get you out of the troubles
you probably will fall victim to.

 In the mean time you and steve can just killfile those you
 think are just egging him on.
 Unfortunately it is not a symmetrical situation.
 Nikos responds only in his own threads and is more killable
 that many of the eggers who both more numerous and respond 
 in many other threads that are of interest.
Can you explain how these people can egg Nikos on in threads
in which he doesn't participate? I also don't find your
assymmetry of much relevance. It is just happens how
history played out. There is no priciple difference. In both
cases we have people being annoyed by the behaviour of others.
I you want to advise others should 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 18-06-13 01:02, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
 On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:31:53 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

 Op 16-06-13 22:04, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
 On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

 You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue
 that there are no boundaries
 I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have
 repeatedly made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving
 improperly. And I've done the same to others when they've acted
 improperly.
 That doesn't mean much. People can and do contradict themselves. So the
 fact that you made it clear to Nikos that he behaved improperly doesn't
 contradict you arguing somewhere else in a way that strongly suggest
 there are no boudaries.
 Except that I have never, ever argued or suggested or even hinted that 
 there are no boundaries. The most you might legitimately accuse me of is 
 failing to be sufficiently vigilant at enforcing boundaries, according to 
 *your* idea of what is sufficient.


 But I'll take note that you assert there are boundaries. So I'll take it
 that there is nothing wrong with playing Internet Police and taking
 people to task who transgress this boundaries?
 There is an enormous difference between doing what I, and others, have 
 done, which is to *politely* and *fairly* tell Nikos when he has 
 transgressed, and what the flame-warriors have done, which is just fire 
 off invective and insults.
I disagree. You have been polite to the person who is ruining it for
a lot of other people. What good is it to politely and fairly tell
someone he is transgressing, when he will just continue in the same way.
At some point you keeping to be polite and answering his questions,
becomes enabling behaviour. Your politely and fairly pointing out
his transgressions just becomes a way in cooperating with his annoying
behaviour.

You keeping it polite and fair doens't mean much. It isn't that difficult
to act as an asshole while presenting oneself as being polite and fair.

And no I don't want to imply you are an asshole. I just want to make
it clear I don't put much weight is being polite and fair.

 Not long ago I got taken to task, politely, off-list for responding to 
 Ranting Rick with sarcasm. Sometimes the momentary pleasure of a flame 
 outweighs the knowledge that it probably isn't doing any good and may be 
 doing harm. I get that and don't hold it against anyone if they succumb 
 to temptation once in a while. (Those like Peter Otten, who have been 
 regulars here for *years* while still showing the patience of a saint, 
 never fail to astonish me. If I could be even half as good.)

 But continuing to flame after being asked not to, and defending flamers, 
 that crosses the line from spirit is willing, flesh is weak into 
 *willfully bad* territory.

You were asked not to continue encouraging Nikos's assholery behaviour.
So it seems you are in that *willfully bad* territory yourself. And
no, politely and fairly telling Nikos he is transgressing doesn't cut it.
If he keeps acting like an asshole and you keep helping him you are
encouraging his assholery behaviour no matter how many times you
politely and fairly point out his transgressions. 


 One thing I would like to make clear, is that I find you making it clear
 he behaviour is improper, to be inadequate for the reason that it
 ignores the possibility that you are playing a troll game.
 Oh my, that's funny.

 But seriously, don't do that. I won't put up with that sort of thing. You 
 rarely contribute in this community, and now here you are trying to take 
 the moral high ground by defending flaming and criticising those who give 
 actual helpful, on-topic advice. I won't be called a troll by you. Do it 
 again, and you're plonked.

I didn't call you a troll. I just wanted you to consider you might be
participating in what is essentially a troll game. And that what you
see as pointing out a transgression, is just a kind of move in the
game of the troll.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ben Finney]

Oscar Benjamin oscar.j.benja...@gmail.com writes:

 There is a very simple solution used by many mailing lists

Yes, that solution is described in RFC 2369: the “List-Post” field in
the header of every message sent through the mailing list.

 which is to set the Reply-To header to point back to the mailing list.

That is not a solution, since the ‘Reply-To’ field already has a
different purpose contrary to your intent. It is to be set by the person
sending the message, if they choose. It is not for some intermediary to
interfere with.

It is a field for the sender to direct *individual* responses back to
themselves – and, if they don't set that field, no intermediary should
abuse it.

 That way any old email client on any OS/computer/phone/website etc.
 has the required button to reply to the list without CCing anyone.

By breaking the standard “reply to author” behaviour. This is not a
solution.

The “List-Post” field has been standard for more than a decade. If
anyone is using an MUA that doesn't use it, please imrpove that
situation: pressure your vendor to fix that deficiency, and/or switch to
a better mail client until then.

 It also reduces the chance of accidentally replying off-list.

What damage is done by accidentally replying off-list? At worst, you
merely need to send the message again to the list. The damage is
minimal, and easily rectified.

Your proposed interference with the “Reply-To” field, though, invites
much more serious errors: it sets up a person to send a message to
people they did *not* intend, when using a function (“reply to author”,
often simply called “reply”) specifically for reaching the sender
*only*.

If your message contains information only intended to be seen by the
author to whom they are replying, the standard behaviour for “Reply-To”
gives the reasonable expectation it will go only to the author. But if a
broken mailing list that munges “Reply-To” to direct your reply to the
whole mailing list, that is damage which can't be un-done.

Please don't propose breaking standard behaviour by interfering with the
meaning of standard fields.

We have exactly the fields we need already: the RFC 2369 fields are in
the header of every message from the mailing list. The “List-Post”
field, saying where mail should be directed to reach the mailing list,
is exactly what is needed.

-- 
 \ “Ours is a world where people don't know what they want and are |
  `\   willing to go through hell to get it.” —Donald Robert Perry |
_o__)  Marquis |
Ben Finney

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-06-18, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:39 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 tl;dr Stop acting like a troll and we'll stop perceiving you as such.

 This being Python-list, we duck-type. You don't have to declare that
 you're a troll, like you would in C; you just react like a troll and
 we'll treat you as one. We never ask are you a troll, we just ask
 do you quack like a troll.

Indeed.  The is he a troll question is a discussion about internals.
And like many Python users, some of us do like to discuss questions
about internals (though we hopefully know enough not to depend on the
answers being the same tomorrow).

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! What I want to find
  at   out is -- do parrots know
  gmail.commuch about Astro-Turf?
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-06-18, Antoon Pardon antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 19:56, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

 I don't see that much change in his style. He just admitted
 not reading help files (because they are too technical for
 him). So essentialy he is asking we give him a beginners
 tutorial in everything he doesn't understand without much
 effort of him trying to understand things on his own and
 without much appreciation for the time of others.

 See my reply to ChrisA.

 Your reply doesn't address his unwillingness to read the
 documentation which was IMO rather apparant.

It's not only apparent, he explicitly stated that he refused to go
read the references he has been provided because he prefers to have
his questions answered by a live persion.  IMO, anybody who behaves
like doesn't deserve any more responses.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! I guess you guys got
  at   BIG MUSCLES from doing too
  gmail.commuch STUDYING!
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/18/2013 02:22 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 19:56, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/17/2013 02:15 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/16/2013 02:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
 Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
 is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
 ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
 it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.
 The difficulty with trying to suppress such responses is that 
 the flamers get just as much pleasure from having a target
 to unrestrainedly spew their pent up anger and vile at, as 
 the troll gets from simulating that reaction.  The result is 
 a positive feedback loop.
 Well if asocial behaviour of one provokes asocial behaviour in
 others, you can't claim the problem is not the social behaviour
 of the first. 
 Sure I can.  If you have a photodetector that activates a 
 bright light when it detects a flash, you can blame the first
 flash for the fact that the bright light is on all the time.
 Or you can say that stray flashes are to be expected now 
 and then in the environment of this system and the fault 
 is responding to them with a bright light.
 But that doesn't make sense. Your photodetector working as
 it does, is just as expected as the happening of stray
 flashes. There is no reason to differentiate between these
 two in terms of being expected or not.

I was using the photodetector/light system as a emotion-free 
analog of the troll/troll-feeders positive feedback system for 
which you claimed it was clearly the troll's fault for initiating 
the feedback condition.  My intent was to point out that cause 
and effect are intertwined in feedback systems and it is equally
valid to blame those responding to the troll for the end result
as to blame the troll.  And, since occasional trolls are to 
be expected, one is even justified in putting the preponderance 
of blame on the responders.

 As I said (and you disagree with below), I did see some
 attempts to adapt his behavior but it is not realistic to
 expect immediate acquiescence to every request made here, 
 especially given that a lot of them were/are bullshit.
 I don't care whether it is realistic or not. If he can't conform
 his behaviour in a reasonable way, he doesn't belong here. It
 is not realistic to expect someone who is just learing to swim
 to survive a jump in the deep. So we expect those people not
 to jump in the deep. We don't tolerate them jumping in the deep
 on the expectation that others will pull them out. That is
 wat Nikos keeps doing here, jumping in the deep. And a lot of
 people feel it is time we let him (metaphorically drown). 

see Drowning below

 I speculate that half of his bad behavior is simple I want 
 now and don't care about your conventions.  The rest is a
 reaction to we're the alphas, your a beta attitude expressed
 by many here and later, overt hostility directed at him.  He 
 has changed some things -- his posting method, he's made an 
 effort to understand his encoding issues, etc.'
 I don't see that much change in his style. He just admitted
 not reading help files (because they are too technical for
 him). So essentialy he is asking we give him a beginners
 tutorial in everything he doesn't understand without much
 effort of him trying to understand things on his own and
 without much appreciation for the time of others.
 See my reply to ChrisA.
 Your reply doesn't address his unwillingness to read the
 documentation which was IMO rather apparant.

My reply certainly did address that and did so explicitly.

Now if you mean that you don't care *why* he doesn't want to
read them, the only thing that matters is that he doesn't/won't,
them we have different standard for evaluating people and I
don't accept yours.  To me the reason does matter as it affects
my evaluation of how they may adapt in the future.

 My personal feeling is that he tends to ask on the list too 
 quickly, but I suspect he also does more than you're giving
 him credit for.  He seems to be naive (eg the password event), 
 open and honest so when he says he has been trying to fix 
 something for hours I am prone to believe him. 
 I don't care. In the end he is still jumping in the deep
 expecting others to drag him out. I don't care how much
 he does. Just as I don't care how much energy someone has
 put into learning to swim. If your skills are not adequate
 you don't jump into the deep.

see Drowning below.

 I think his
 approach to fixing is to try making changes more or less at
 random, in part because he doesn't understand the docs (or
 doesn't look at them because they haven't made sense to him 
 in the past) and in part because he hasn't developed any 
 skill in debugging (a skill that I think most everyone here 
 takes for granted but which doesn't come naturally to some 
 people) and which also accounts for the poor formulation of
 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/18/2013 01:21 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:39 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 tl;dr Stop acting like a troll and we'll stop perceiving you as such.
 
 This being Python-list, we duck-type. You don't have to declare that
 you're a troll, like you would in C; you just react like a troll and
 we'll treat you as one. We never ask are you a troll, we just ask
 do you quack like a troll.

People are much more complex than Python objects.  While
duck-typing is a useful heuristic it does not guarantee
accurate results.  And keep in mind that stereotyping and 
racial profiling are forms of duck typing.  You need to
be careful when duck-typing people.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-06-18, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
 On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 13:38:40 + (UTC), Grant Edwards
On 2013-06-18, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 2:39 PM, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote:
 tl;dr Stop acting like a troll and we'll stop perceiving you as such.

 This being Python-list, we duck-type. You don't have to declare that
 you're a troll, like you would in C; you just react like a troll and
 we'll treat you as one. We never ask are you a troll, we just ask
 do you quack like a troll.

Indeed.  The is he a troll question is a discussion about internals.
And like many Python users, some of us do like to discuss questions
about internals (though we hopefully know enough not to depend on the
answers being the same tomorrow).

 And suddenly I have visions of a Druidical reading of the entrails...

Well, that might explain how some of the code I've seen recently in
this newsgroup was written.

-- 
Grant


-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus supp...@superhost.gr wrote:
 The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and
 PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual
 expert human being.



This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
documentation. If the help files are too technical for you, you will
need to improve your technical ability. (Though the PEPs shouldn't
need to concern you, generally.) Live help is a VERY expensive service
to offer, because it involves an expert's time dedicated to one single
person. Collective help is far more efficient - that's why
documentation exists, because it gets read by far more people than
wrote it (at least, that's the theory).

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 16-06-13 22:04, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
 On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

 You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue
 that there are no boundaries 
 I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have repeatedly 
 made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving improperly. And 
 I've done the same to others when they've acted improperly.

That doesn't mean much. People can and do contradict themselves. So the
fact that you made it clear to Nikos that he behaved improperly doesn't
contradict you arguing somewhere else in a way that strongly suggest
there are no boudaries.

But I'll take note that you assert there are boundaries. So I'll take
it that there is nothing wrong with playing Internet Police and taking
people to task who transgress this boundaries?

One thing I would like to make clear, is that I find you making it clear
he behaviour is improper, to be inadequate for the reason that it ignores
the possibility that you are playing a troll game.

To make an analogy. Suppose someone want to play a game of troll-chess
with you. The rules of troll-chess are the following. You are allowed
any kind of piece movement or you can utter the statement: TIC (That is
cheating). So in troll-chess you are allowed to move your bisshops like
a queen. The only thing is, that if you do a move that is illegal in
ordinary chess and your opponent answers with TIC, you must take back
that move and make a move that is legal ordinary chess. So you make
think you are making it clear to your troll-chess opponent that he
is cheating for your troll-chess opponet you are just participating in
his game.

Now it is possible that your opponent is not in fact playing troll chess
but just doesn't know enough of the game to know what is a legal move and
what is not. In my opinion that doesn't matter. If your opponent doesn't
want to invest the time needed to at least have a reasonable idea of
what moves are legal and so in practice is hardly distinguishable from
those who's intent it is to play troll chess, the end result is the
same.


 to what is acceptable by calling people who
 do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the other hand
 you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of bound behaviour.
 Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
 is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
 ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
 it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.

I'm sorry but again I find that you are trying to have it both ways. IMO,
and I suspect I'm not alone in that judgement, the threads that Nikos starts
are in general, boring, repetitive, unproductive and draining. Not only that
they are having an effect on the mailing list as a whole making it an unpleasant
place. To the people who come with that complain, your respons, seems to be
that if those people would just ignore the nikos-threads. They don't have to
experience this unpleasantnes.

But now that you start to experience unpleasantness, this unproductiveness
and unpleasantness is cause for you to label behaviour unacceptable. But the
same remedy is available here. Just ignore threads with behaviour that you
find unacceptable and you (and others) don't have to experience this hostility
and unpleasantness.

Those you accuse of ruining the environment, find this environment already
partly ruined by nikos and those that enable him.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 17-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/16/2013 02:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

 Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
 is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
 ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
 it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.
 The difficulty with trying to suppress such responses is that 
 the flamers get just as much pleasure from having a target
 to unrestrainedly spew their pent up anger and vile at, as 
 the troll gets from simulating that reaction.  The result is 
 a positive feedback loop.

Well if asocial behaviour of one provokes asocial behaviour in
others, you can't claim the problem is not the social behaviour
of the first. 

   
 I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll -- 
 someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord.
 He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like 
 genuine problems many beginners have.  He seems to have little 
 knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of
 determination to get things working.  I have certainly known
 people like that in the real world.

Does that matter? I don't care what Nikos's motivation is. I
care about the result or effect of his behaviour and that seems
to differ very little from a troll. Intent is not magic. Bad
behaviour with the best of intentions still results in annoyance.
The only way it which intent makes a difference is when the
person with good intentions, upon learning his behaviour is
bothersome, tries to adapt his behaviour.


 I speculate that half of his bad behavior is simple I want 
 now and don't care about your conventions.  The rest is a
 reaction to we're the alphas, your a beta attitude expressed
 by many here and later, overt hostility directed at him.  He 
 has changed some things -- his posting method, he's made an 
 effort to understand his encoding issues, etc.
I don't see that much change in his style. He just admitted
not reading help files (because they are too technical for
him). So essentialy he is asking we give him a beginners
tutorial in everything he doesn't understand without much
effort of him trying to understand things on his own and
without much appreciation for the time of others.

 So I think Steven's approach of responding to his questions, 
 at least those that are coherent and don't require reading a 
 dozen posts over several threads to piece together, with an 
 actual attempt to help (not a bunch of obscure hints, links 
 to wikipedia, and you're an idiot replies) is right.
A respons that is in effect reinforcing bad bahaviour.

 If Nikos fails to respond with better questions, then those 
 that do answer will get tired of trying to help and stop 
 answering.  In the meantime everyone else can just killfile
 or otherwise ignore him rather than egging him on by 
 intentionally provoking him (unless of course you enjoy
 the results.)
In the mean time you and steve can just killfile those you
think are just egging him on.

 So positive reinforcement for less bad behavior, negative 
 reinforcement (which for trolling is NO response, not negative 
 responses) for more bad.  Standard behavioral conditioning.
It means you are still reinforcing bad behaviour. Less bad is
still bad.

 And if it doesn't work it will still be a much nicer and 
 quieter here with only Nikos' trolling than with 10x as much 
 garbage from the local vigilantes who are more obnoxious
 than he.
But not quiet enough for some people. They hope that somehow
punishing Nikos for his behaviour, although it may make the
environment even less nice in the short term, may help to
make the environment as nice again as it was before Nikos
started his quest for spoon feeders. While reinforcing bad
bahaviour provides no hope at all for that.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 17-06-13 07:04, Ferrous Cranus schreef:

 On 17/6/2013 6:46 πμ, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll --
 someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord.
 He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like
 genuine problems many beginners have.  He seems to have little
 knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of
 determination to get things working.  I have certainly known
 people like that in the real world.
 This is the best definition of me.
 It is very nice to see that someone has understood my character and 
 intentions.
It still describes you as a jerk. Someone who acts without
much concerns for others, is a jerk even if he has no malice
in mind.



 The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files 
 and PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an 
 actual expert human being.
 An yes, i'm not trolling this fine newsgroup.
 If it wasn't for the help of some of the nicest fellows here my site 
 would be up and working neither with Python 3.3.2 nor with 2.6.
Yes you are trolling this newsgroup. Intent is not magic. You
just admitted to have little concerns for others. So if your
behaviour happens to be rude and provoke people in behaving
badly, you just don't care and continue to act essentially
in the same way. That is trolling even if it is not your intention.


 Many difficulties that occurred to me when trying to write some code 
 were addresses here making my website actually happen.
 I could have made it to Joomla(that's web design) instead of Python(web 
 development_ but i really like Python and the reason i ask in detail is 
 because i don't want only provided code that will help address an issue 
 i have, but i want to know how things work.
Sure, but you don't want to make any effort yourself in getting to know
how things work. You expect others to spoon feed you.

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-06-15, Chris ???Kwpolska??? Warrick kwpol...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:

 I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.

 In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
 would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
 getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.

 Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
 This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! I just remembered
  at   something about a TOAD!
  gmail.com
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus supp...@superhost.gr wrote:
 The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and
 PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual
 expert human being.
 
 This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
 provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
 documentation. 

It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation.
I have posted here several times as have many others about 
some of the problems the documentation has, especially for
people who don't already know Python.

Take a look at issue http://bugs.python.org/issue16665
for an example of why the Python doc has some of the problems
that it does.  (Please change the subject line if you want 
to discuss the documentation rather than Nikos.)

While the Python tutorial is a good answer for many people 
it is not the answer for everyone.  Many people don't have 
a large block of time to sit down and go through it from 
beginning to end.  Many people don't learn well reading a
large volume of not-immediately-relevant material, trying
to commit it to memory, and then trying to apply it all 
later, as opposed to looking up those aspects of python 
relevant to what they are attempting at that moment.  (I 
am in that category.)

All these problems are aggravated for people whose native
language is not English.

 If the help files are too technical for you, you will
 need to improve your technical ability. (Though the PEPs shouldn't
 need to concern you, generally.) Live help is a VERY expensive service
 to offer, because it involves an expert's time dedicated to one single
 person. 

Luckily, in a group of volunteers, participants can individually
decide how much their time is worth and answer if they want
or not if they don't.

The reality, regardless of whether you or I think the world should 
not be this way, is that Nikos has embarked on his website building
project and telling him to drop it and come back after he has
learned more is totally ineffectual noise. 

 Collective help is far more efficient - that's why
 documentation exists, because it gets read by far more people than
 wrote it (at least, that's the theory).

Yup.  And it works well most of the time but occasionally not.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[D'Arcy J.M. Cain]

On 15 Jun 2013 15:40:35 GMT
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
  I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.
 
 In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth 
 would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already 
 getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.

You may disagree with my reasoning but I have presented it a few times.

By the way, I did reply just to the list this time as you obviously
disagree but I may forget in the future.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/|  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082)(eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: da...@vex.net, VOIP: sip:da...@vex.net
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 15-06-13 21:54, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

On 06/15/2013 12:18 PM, rusi wrote:

On Jun 15, 10:52 pm, Steven D'Apranosteve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info  wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote:

With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!


If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory
posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't
be the only one kill-filed.


At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part
of the problem.


Nikos is only secondarily the problem, Steven not at all.

The primary problem is a (relatively small) number of people
who respond to every post by Nikos with a barrage of insults,
demands, (what they think are) witty repartee, hints intended
to make Nikos learn something, useless (to Nikos) links,
new threads to discuss the Nikos problem, and other trash
that is far more obnoxious that anything Nikos posts and just
serves to egg him on.


Sorry but this is IMO a false equivallence. It ignores the
important distinction between action and reaction. Does
this number of people post a barrage of insult to no matter
who? And you may find those responses more obnoxious they
propbably are the reactions of people who are utterly fed
up and think that if nobody is concerned about their annoyance
they don't have to b econcerned about the annoyance of others
either.


Steven's advice on how to deal with Nikos was probably the
most sensible thing I've seen posted here on the subject.


Most sensible for what purpose? As far as I can see Steven's
advice will just prolong the cycle of Nikos continuing to ask
for spoonfeeding, showing very litle signs of understanding
and keeping to hop from one problem/bug to the next until
the mailing list has finished his project at which point
he will probably start something new.

If nikos's project was a college project we would have told
him he has to make his homework himself. But now he is earning
money with it, you seem to find it acceptable his job is done
for him.


I suggest that if you can and want to answer Nikos' question,
do so directly and with a serious attempt address what it is
he seems not to get,
  or
killfile him and shut the fuck up.


I suggest that if you want this to continue being a hospitable
place, you don't encourage asocial behaviour. His behaviour
may not bother you so much, but that shouldn't be the norm
because others are less bothered with the barrage of insults
Nikos is now receiving than with Nikos vampirizing this list,
because they consider those insults deserved.

--
Antoon Pardon
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Joel Goldstick]

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Antoon Pardon antoon.par...@rece.vub.ac.be
 wrote:

 Op 15-06-13 21:54, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:

  On 06/15/2013 12:18 PM, rusi wrote:

 On Jun 15, 10:52 pm, Steven D'Apranosteve
 +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.**info comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info
  wrote:

 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote:

 With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!


 If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory
 posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't
 be the only one kill-filed.


 At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
 supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part
 of the problem.


 Nikos is only secondarily the problem, Steven not at all.

 The primary problem is a (relatively small) number of people
 who respond to every post by Nikos with a barrage of insults,
 demands, (what they think are) witty repartee, hints intended
 to make Nikos learn something, useless (to Nikos) links,
 new threads to discuss the Nikos problem, and other trash
 that is far more obnoxious that anything Nikos posts and just
 serves to egg him on.


 Sorry but this is IMO a false equivallence. It ignores the
 important distinction between action and reaction. Does
 this number of people post a barrage of insult to no matter
 who? And you may find those responses more obnoxious they
 propbably are the reactions of people who are utterly fed
 up and think that if nobody is concerned about their annoyance
 they don't have to b econcerned about the annoyance of others
 either.


  Steven's advice on how to deal with Nikos was probably the
 most sensible thing I've seen posted here on the subject.


 Most sensible for what purpose? As far as I can see Steven's
 advice will just prolong the cycle of Nikos continuing to ask
 for spoonfeeding, showing very litle signs of understanding
 and keeping to hop from one problem/bug to the next until
 the mailing list has finished his project at which point
 he will probably start something new.

 If nikos's project was a college project we would have told
 him he has to make his homework himself. But now he is earning
 money with it, you seem to find it acceptable his job is done
 for him.


  I suggest that if you can and want to answer Nikos' question,
 do so directly and with a serious attempt address what it is
 he seems not to get,
   or
 killfile him and shut the fuck up.


 I suggest that if you want this to continue being a hospitable
 place, you don't encourage asocial behaviour. His behaviour
 may not bother you so much, but that shouldn't be the norm
 because others are less bothered with the barrage of insults
 Nikos is now receiving than with Nikos vampirizing this list,
 because they consider those insults deserved.


 --
 Antoon Pardon
 --
 http://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-listhttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



I'm with Antoon on this.  If you look at this group, it almost completely
revolves around the guy from Greece with 3 or 4 or 5 different email
addresses.  His area of interest is repetitive:

1. Get me out of the Unicode hell that is my own making
2. Do my linux sys admin for me
3. I can't be bothered with understanding what more there is to making
software other than cutting and pasting code that other people are willing
to write for me
4. Go back to [1] and start again.

If you need to understand unicode and or hex notation, or binary notation
(and most likely you will if you write code for a living), then go learn
about those things.  If you are unwilling to do that, then go away.



If you think its best to help this person, and be kind to him, and
encourage him to become a better citizen, please remember that being
inviting to a person who ruins the party for everyone is not being
respectful of everyone else.

All the while monopolizing many threads

From my perspective there seems to be some interesting people here with a
wide array of experience and knowledge, whose understand and opinions I
find fun and useful to read.   All of that is drowned out by the freight
train from superhost.gr


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Simpleton]

On 16/6/2013 9:39 μμ, Antoon Pardon wrote:

If nikos's project was a college project we would have told
him he has to make his homework himself.


This is where you all mistaken.

You see, my website could be done ina CMS like (Joomla or Drupal) or 
even in DreamWeaver.


I choosed Python because i like Python.
Mny of my friends and clients told me hey man your website is very 
simple, how not Joomla-lize it with cool animation effects and stuff?


Well, i could, but i dont want to because:

1. i want to learn Python
2. i want to have full control of my webisite, knowing each and every 
lien does, since i'm writing it.


 But now he is earning
 money with it, you seem to find it acceptable his job is done
 for him.

No. I first try and inevitably i fail.
Than i ask, and ask not only to be shown to the correct way of handling 
the code, but i want to be informed of how you thought of implementing 
the situation at hand. This way i learn from your experience and iam 
getting better and better every day as we speak, which in turn make me 
fond of Python increasingly.



--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Grant Edwards]

On 2013-06-17, Simpleton supp...@superhost.gr wrote:
 On 16/6/2013 9:39 , Antoon Pardon wrote:
 If nikos's project was a college project we would have told
 him he has to make his homework himself.

 This is where you all mistaken.

 You see, my website could be done ina CMS like (Joomla or Drupal) or 
 even in DreamWeaver.

 I choosed Python because i like Python.
 Mny of my friends and clients told me hey man your website is very 
 simple, how not Joomla-lize it with cool animation effects and stuff?

 Well, i could, but i dont want to because:

 1. i want to learn Python
 2. i want to have full control of my webisite, knowing each and every 
 line does, since i'm writing it.

  But now he is earning
  money with it, you seem to find it acceptable his job is done
  for him.

 No. I first try and inevitably i fail.

But failing _isn't_ inevitible.  If you take the time to actually
learn Python by reading the references people provide, by studying
small examples, and by experimenting with Python code, there's no
reason why you should fail.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! MY income is ALL
  at   disposable!
  gmail.com
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Simpleton]

On 17/6/2013 7:14 μμ, Grant Edwards wrote:

But failing _isn't_ inevitible.  If you take the time to actually
learn Python by reading the references people provide, by studying
small examples, and by experimenting with Python code, there's no
reason why you should fail.


I'am and i feel better expressing my questions to a live human being 
that read help file after help file to find some answer to a problem i 
have to deal with.


Of course i spent you guys reply-time but many others(even experts) 
benefit from all this experience, not only me.


Also what i have learned here the last month would have taken me way 
longer if i was researching for my self from doc=doc reference until i 
was able to understand something.


I like things to be put up simple and i'am not trolling this group.
I respect this group.

--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[D'Arcy J.M. Cain]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:39:56 + (UTC)
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
 I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
 whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
 NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.

And that is part of the problem.  I have always argued that gatewaying
the mailing list to newgroups is wrong.  If this was only a mailing
list there are many things we could do to reduce abuse but because of
the gateway they can't be done.

Not that it matters to me any more.  I have finally decided that this
list is just more noise to signal than I care to deal with.  If anyone
has any comments for me you will have to Cc me as I am outa here.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/|  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082)(eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: da...@vex.net, VOIP: sip:da...@vex.net
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Oscar Benjamin]

On 17 June 2013 17:35, D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net wrote:
 On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:39:56 + (UTC)
 Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:
 I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
 whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
 NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.

 And that is part of the problem.  I have always argued that gatewaying
 the mailing list to newgroups is wrong.  If this was only a mailing
 list there are many things we could do to reduce abuse but because of
 the gateway they can't be done.

There is a very simple solution used by many mailing lists which is to
set the Reply-To header to point back to the mailing list. That way
any old email client on any OS/computer/phone/website etc. has the
required button to reply to the list without CCing anyone. It also
reduces the chance of accidentally replying off-list. Anyone who wants
to reply off-list or to deliberately CC someone (as I did here) can
still do so but it will rarely happen accidentally.


Oscar
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Νίκος]

On 17/6/2013 8:42 μμ, Oscar Benjamin wrote:

On 17 June 2013 17:35, D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:39:56 + (UTC)
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote:

I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.


And that is part of the problem.  I have always argued that gatewaying
the mailing list to newgroups is wrong.  If this was only a mailing
list there are many things we could do to reduce abuse but because of
the gateway they can't be done.


There is a very simple solution used by many mailing lists which is to
set the Reply-To header to point back to the mailing list. That way
any old email client on any OS/computer/phone/website etc. has the
required button to reply to the list without CCing anyone. It also
reduces the chance of accidentally replying off-list. Anyone who wants
to reply off-list or to deliberately CC someone (as I did here) can
still do so but it will rarely happen accidentally.


Oscar
Yes please anyone do so, so we dont get 2 notification in both our mail 
reader and news reader at the same time. just repley only to the list.




--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/17/2013 02:15 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 Op 17-06-13 05:46, ru...@yahoo.com schreef:
 On 06/16/2013 02:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

 Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
 is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
 ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
 it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.
 The difficulty with trying to suppress such responses is that 
 the flamers get just as much pleasure from having a target
 to unrestrainedly spew their pent up anger and vile at, as 
 the troll gets from simulating that reaction.  The result is 
 a positive feedback loop.

 Well if asocial behaviour of one provokes asocial behaviour in
 others, you can't claim the problem is not the social behaviour
 of the first. 

Sure I can.  If you have a photodetector that activates a 
bright light when it detects a flash, you can blame the first
flash for the fact that the bright light is on all the time.
Or you can say that stray flashes are to be expected now 
and then in the environment of this system and the fault 
is responding to them with a bright light.

 I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll -- 
 someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord.
 He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like 
 genuine problems many beginners have.  He seems to have little 
 knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of
 determination to get things working.  I have certainly known
 people like that in the real world.
 
 Does that matter? I don't care what Nikos's motivation is. I
 care about the result or effect of his behaviour and that seems
 to differ very little from a troll. Intent is not magic. Bad
 behaviour with the best of intentions still results in annoyance.
 The only way it which intent makes a difference is when the
 person with good intentions, upon learning his behaviour is
 bothersome, tries to adapt his behaviour.

As I said (and you disagree with below), I did see some
attempts to adapt his behavior but it is not realistic to
expect immediate acquiescence to every request made here, 
especially given that a lot of them were/are bullshit.

 I speculate that half of his bad behavior is simple I want 
 now and don't care about your conventions.  The rest is a
 reaction to we're the alphas, your a beta attitude expressed
 by many here and later, overt hostility directed at him.  He 
 has changed some things -- his posting method, he's made an 
 effort to understand his encoding issues, etc.'

 I don't see that much change in his style. He just admitted
 not reading help files (because they are too technical for
 him). So essentialy he is asking we give him a beginners
 tutorial in everything he doesn't understand without much
 effort of him trying to understand things on his own and
 without much appreciation for the time of others.

See my reply to ChrisA.  
My personal feeling is that he tends to ask on the list too 
quickly, but I suspect he also does more than you're giving
him credit for.  He seems to be naive (eg the password event), 
open and honest so when he says he has been trying to fix 
something for hours I am prone to believe him.  I think his
approach to fixing is to try making changes more or less at
random, in part because he doesn't understand the docs (or
doesn't look at them because they haven't made sense to him 
in the past) and in part because he hasn't developed any 
skill in debugging (a skill that I think most everyone here 
takes for granted but which doesn't come naturally to some 
people) and which also accounts for the poor formulation of
his questions.

I'm not willing to go though twelve gazillion previous posts
to try and find examples of improved behavior so I'll leave
it as my personal impression and that you disagree.

 So I think Steven's approach of responding to his questions, 
 at least those that are coherent and don't require reading a 
 dozen posts over several threads to piece together, with an 
 actual attempt to help (not a bunch of obscure hints, links 
 to wikipedia, and you're an idiot replies) is right.
 A respons that is in effect reinforcing bad bahaviour.
 
 If Nikos fails to respond with better questions, then those 
 that do answer will get tired of trying to help and stop 
 answering.  In the meantime everyone else can just killfile
 or otherwise ignore him rather than egging him on by 
 intentionally provoking him (unless of course you enjoy
 the results.)

 In the mean time you and steve can just killfile those you
 think are just egging him on.

Unfortunately it is not a symmetrical situation.
Nikos responds only in his own threads and is more killable
that many of the eggers who both more numerous and respond 
in many other threads that are of interest.

But then I seldom killfile people (always have found it 
trivially easy just to skip over annoying threads) so maybe
I need to explore killfile 

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Guy Scree]

I recommend that all participants in this thread, especially Alex and
Anton, research the term Pathological Altruism
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 AM,  ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus supp...@superhost.gr wrote:
 The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and
 PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual
 expert human being.

 This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
 provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
 documentation.

 It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation.
 I have posted here several times as have many others about
 some of the problems the documentation has, especially for
 people who don't already know Python.

I'm aware the docs aren't perfect. But there's a world of difference between:

Here's my code, tell me what's wrong. TELL ME NOW!!

and

Having trouble understanding this function [link to docs] - I expect
X but Y happens.

That's what I take issue with. The implication behind Nikos's
questions is that he *can't be bothered* reading the docs, which he
has explicitly confirmed above. That's nothing to do with the
problems the documentation has; if Python had perfect documentation,
he still wouldn't read it. That is a problem. A major problem.

ChrisA
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Mark Lawrence]

On 17/06/2013 15:41, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:


It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation.
I have posted here several times as have many others about
some of the problems the documentation has, especially for
people who don't already know Python.



It's extremely easy to change the Python documentation, either raise an 
issue on the bug tracker or send an email to IIRC docs at python dot 
org.  The fastest time I've ever seen between an issue being raised and 
the change being implemented was literally minutes.  If that isn't good 
enough, put up or shut up.


--
Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are 
watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green. Snooker 
commentator 'Whispering' Ted Lowe.


Mark Lawrence

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...]

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:41:54 -0700, rurpy wrote:

 On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus supp...@superhost.gr
 wrote:
 The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help
 files and PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live
 help of an actual expert human being.
 
 This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
 provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
 documentation.
 
 It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation. I have posted
 here several times as have many others about some of the problems the
 documentation has, especially for people who don't already know Python.

This is very reasonable. And nobody -- well, at least not me, and 
probably not Chris -- expects that reading the documentation will 
suddenly cause the light to shine for every beginner who reads it. Often 
the official docs are written with an expected audience who already knows 
the language well.

But in context, Nikos has been programming Python long enough, and he's 
been told often enough, that his FIRST stop should be the documentation, 
and us second. Not what he does now, which is to make us his first, 
second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth stops.

(Are you paying attention Nikos?)

But speaking more generally, yes, you are right, the docs are not a 
panacea. If they were, mailing lists like this, and websites like 
StackOverflow, would not exist.




-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:31:53 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

 Op 16-06-13 22:04, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
 On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

 You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue
 that there are no boundaries
 I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have
 repeatedly made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving
 improperly. And I've done the same to others when they've acted
 improperly.
 
 That doesn't mean much. People can and do contradict themselves. So the
 fact that you made it clear to Nikos that he behaved improperly doesn't
 contradict you arguing somewhere else in a way that strongly suggest
 there are no boudaries.

Except that I have never, ever argued or suggested or even hinted that 
there are no boundaries. The most you might legitimately accuse me of is 
failing to be sufficiently vigilant at enforcing boundaries, according to 
*your* idea of what is sufficient.


 But I'll take note that you assert there are boundaries. So I'll take it
 that there is nothing wrong with playing Internet Police and taking
 people to task who transgress this boundaries?

There is an enormous difference between doing what I, and others, have 
done, which is to *politely* and *fairly* tell Nikos when he has 
transgressed, and what the flame-warriors have done, which is just fire 
off invective and insults.

Not long ago I got taken to task, politely, off-list for responding to 
Ranting Rick with sarcasm. Sometimes the momentary pleasure of a flame 
outweighs the knowledge that it probably isn't doing any good and may be 
doing harm. I get that and don't hold it against anyone if they succumb 
to temptation once in a while. (Those like Peter Otten, who have been 
regulars here for *years* while still showing the patience of a saint, 
never fail to astonish me. If I could be even half as good.)

But continuing to flame after being asked not to, and defending flamers, 
that crosses the line from spirit is willing, flesh is weak into 
*willfully bad* territory.

Contrast Chris Angelico's recent email telling Nikos that he *actually 
should feel bad* about not reading the documentation. That is reasonable. 
It's not just a stream of insults. It doesn't just try to bully him into 
going away or shutting up in order to avoid being shouted at. If Nikos 
fails to learn from it, that is Nikos' failure, not Chris'.

 
 One thing I would like to make clear, is that I find you making it clear
 he behaviour is improper, to be inadequate for the reason that it
 ignores the possibility that you are playing a troll game.

Oh my, that's funny.

But seriously, don't do that. I won't put up with that sort of thing. You 
rarely contribute in this community, and now here you are trying to take 
the moral high ground by defending flaming and criticising those who give 
actual helpful, on-topic advice. I won't be called a troll by you. Do it 
again, and you're plonked.


-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/17/2013 03:43 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 AM,  ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus supp...@superhost.gr 
 wrote:
 The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and
 PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual
 expert human being.

 This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
 provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
 documentation.

 It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation.
 I have posted here several times as have many others about
 some of the problems the documentation has, especially for
 people who don't already know Python.
 
 I'm aware the docs aren't perfect. But there's a world of difference between:
 
 Here's my code, tell me what's wrong. TELL ME NOW!!
 
 and
 
 Having trouble understanding this function [link to docs] - I expect
 X but Y happens.

I'm not sure he even thinks in those terms.  He seems to 
have a hard time isolating misbehaving code to a particular 
function's behavior.  I could speculate that it doesn't occur
to him to lookup the function, or it hard to find (I had lots
of problems finding stuff in the Python docs at first because 
the difference between builtins, other functions, methods, 
classes (look like functions when called) was not clear to 
me and when I did find the right place the doc was often in 
terms I didn't understand), or that he does but can't get a 
clear idea or gets the wrong idea about how it behaves, or...  

Figuring out how beginners think is something that talented
teachers are good at and (from my observations) almost nobody 
here is.

 That's what I take issue with. The implication behind Nikos's
 questions is that he *can't be bothered* reading the docs, which he
 has explicitly confirmed above. 

He didn't confirm that at all!  You are seeing what you 
want to see rather than what is there.

He said he didn't read them because (see the quoted 
text above!), [they] seem too technical for me, not
I can't be bothered.

I agree the poor problem descriptions and the help me
now tone (in other messages) is irritating.  But I also 
realize I don't work for him and have no obligation to 
respond.  So if it is something I can help with and I 
feel like it and no one else has posted anything useful, 
I might try.  If I don't feel like it a quick click of 
the mouse moves me to the next topic.  

What is a waste of time is a hey, rtfm at this link, 
dickwad response.  It doesn't help Nikos.  It sends the 
message to everyone else that aggressive responses are ok
And it likely prods Nikos (or whomever) to respond in kind. 
(A link in conjunction with some help though one hopes 
will be constructive.)

 That's nothing to do with the
 problems the documentation has; 

[they] seem too technical for me doesn't necessarily 
imply a problem with the docs (although it could) but 
it does imply their usefulness to Nikos is going to be 
limited until he gains a better understanding of some 
of the basic concepts and terminology of Python. 

And to anticipate the obvious, I am not advocating the
docs be written to address Nikos' level of understanding, 
only that if people with much better understanding also 
find problems with them, that it is not surprising that 
Nikos has even more trouble with them, quite possibly 
finding them not useful at all.

 if Python had perfect documentation,
 he still wouldn't read it. 

If your crystal ball is that good, could you try using it
to solve some of Nikos' problems?

Now in the end you may turn out to be right and Nikos is
playing everyone here to get as much free help as possible
and those willing to help him are getting suckered.  Still,
until that becomes clear to me personally I'd rather err
of the side of helping him when I can than not.  And in 
either case abusive posts don't help.

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/17/2013 04:22 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
 On 17/06/2013 15:41, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:
 It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation.
 I have posted here several times as have many others about
 some of the problems the documentation has, especially for
 people who don't already know Python.
 
 It's extremely easy to change the Python documentation, either raise an 
 issue on the bug tracker or send an email to IIRC docs at python dot 
 org.  

Really?  Did you bother to read the link I included?
Ironic that you are one of the people criticizing Nikos
for not reading anything.

 The fastest time I've ever seen between an issue being raised and 
 the change being implemented was literally minutes.  If that isn't good 
 enough, put up or shut up.

Perhaps you missed this?
  http://bugs.python.org/issue1397474
While the lower bound may be minutes, the upper 
bound is a hell of a lot longer.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...]

[Joel Goldstick]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Steven D'Aprano 
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

 On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 07:41:54 -0700, rurpy wrote:

  On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
  On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus supp...@superhost.gr
  wrote:
  The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help
  files and PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live
  help of an actual expert human being.
 
  This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to
  provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the
  documentation.
 
  It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation. I have posted
  here several times as have many others about some of the problems the
  documentation has, especially for people who don't already know Python.

 This is very reasonable. And nobody -- well, at least not me, and
 probably not Chris -- expects that reading the documentation will
 suddenly cause the light to shine for every beginner who reads it. Often
 the official docs are written with an expected audience who already knows
 the language well.

 But in context, Nikos has been programming Python long enough, and he's
 been told often enough, that his FIRST stop should be the documentation,
 and us second. Not what he does now, which is to make us his first,
 second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth stops.

 (Are you paying attention Nikos?)

 But speaking more generally, yes, you are right, the docs are not a
 panacea. If they were, mailing lists like this, and websites like
 StackOverflow, would not exist.



I read the python docs.  I've gone through the tutorials.  If not the first
time, or the second, I get that Aha moment with additional reads.  Some
people say they learn better by other methods than reading.  In that case,
google like crazy because python has lots of pycon stuff online in video
form, and there is the google course.  and many others.  If people
interaction is what you need, find, and visit your local meetup or user
group.  Lots of places have them.  If you don't have one near you, maybe
you could start one so you would have local help and back and forth
(fourth?).  I think its great to read a question here and get a link for an
answer.  gives me somewhere to go explore more.  If you reject these ways
of learning for the single method of asking.. fix my code.  Then you will
never get good at this craft anyway.  Its not the answers that are
important, its discovering how to find the answers that is really
important.  The old give a man a fish, vs teach a man to fish truism




-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[alex23]

On Jun 18, 2:19 am, Simpleton supp...@superhost.gr wrote:
 I like things to be put up simple and i'am not trolling this group.
 I respect this group.

There are a number of things you could to do confirm this:

1. Stop changing your name.
2. Stop bumping your threads if no one responds.
3. Stop exaggerating the benefit your threads have for others.
4. Stop posting code chunks and saying What now? Show what you've
tried to debug the problem.
5. Stop ignoring requests to modify your behaviour while
simultaneously demanding that others here do.
6. Read the links people provide you and then ask further questions
using the content of those links as a basis.

tl;dr Stop acting like a troll and we'll stop perceiving you as such.
-- 
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 15-06-13 21:29, Steven D'Aprano schreef:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:18:03 -0700, rusi wrote:


At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part of
the problem.


And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos,
because they have learned from them.


That doesn't contradict that you may be part of the problem. There is
something like the law of diminishing returns. So the kind of respons
that is helpful at the beginnig can become part of the problem when it
becomes part of a seemingly endless cycle.


You replied to Antoon, and agreed with his position that we should shun
Nikos, then *immediately* contradicted yourself by stating that Robert
Kern's helpful answers were the ideal. And then, just to further
demonstrate that your actions are at best inconsistent and at worst
hypocritical, you have since gone on to fire barbs at Nikos instead of
ignoring him. So please tend to the beam in your own eye before pointing
at the mote in mine.


So what. We all are somewhat inconsistent and hypocritical. That doesn't
make your responses unproblematic. If in the future you want to respond
like Robert Kern that seems fine enough. But if you continue like you
are now, I'll consider you an enabler.


Others -- Fabio -- have indicated their wish to leave the list due to
everything becoming Nikos-tainted.


That would be disappointing, but there's nothing I can do about it.


Yes you can. You can stop enabling his behaviour. Now you may think
this is an unacceptable option for and that is something you will
have to decide for yourself but you do have a choice.


Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him.


Then why don't they? Don't feed the troll includes trying to beat him
into submission with insults and half-witty remarks.


Not feeding the troll doesn't help. If people are transgressing the
social norms in a community, they need to get a response that makes
it clear they crossed the line. If they don't you are implicetly
broadcasting the message there is no out of bound behaviour.


This is not about Nikos. It's about those who are also doing their bit to
make this community an ugly, hostile place. I won't mention names -- you
know who you are. Those who take it upon themselves to bait and prod and
poke Nikos with insults and inflammatory replies.  Appointing themselves
Internet Police and making ridiculous claims that Nikos ought to be
reported to the police. Sending bogus complaints to the domain registrar.
There is a word for this sort of behaviour: bullying. I don't care how
morally justified you think you are, you are now just as big a part of
the problem as Nikos.


You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue
that there are no boundaries to what is acceptable by calling people
who do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the
other hand you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of
bound behaviour.

You have to make a choice. Either you don't want to recognize there
can be something like out of bound behaviour and then people making
this community an ugly hostile place is acceptable. Or you think
there is behaviour that is out of bounds and then you must consider
the possiblity that Nikos behaviour is an example of that and that
what you consider ugly responses are people trying to address that
out of bound behaviour and that you responding to Nikos as you do
for the moment is perpetuating Nokos's unacceptable behaviour.

--
Antoon Pardon
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

 You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue
 that there are no boundaries 

I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have repeatedly 
made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving improperly. And 
I've done the same to others when they've acted improperly.


 to what is acceptable by calling people who
 do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the other hand
 you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of bound behaviour.

Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.


-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/16/2013 02:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
 On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:
 
 You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue
 that there are no boundaries 
 
 I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have repeatedly 
 made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving improperly. And 
 I've done the same to others when they've acted improperly.

 to what is acceptable by calling people who
 do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the other hand
 you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of bound behaviour.
 
 Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It 
 is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it 
 ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and 
 it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls.

The difficulty with trying to suppress such responses is that 
the flamers get just as much pleasure from having a target
to unrestrainedly spew their pent up anger and vile at, as 
the troll gets from simulating that reaction.  The result is 
a positive feedback loop.  

I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll -- 
someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord.
He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like 
genuine problems many beginners have.  He seems to have little 
knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of
determination to get things working.  I have certainly known
people like that in the real world.

I speculate that half of his bad behavior is simple I want 
now and don't care about your conventions.  The rest is a
reaction to we're the alphas, your a beta attitude expressed
by many here and later, overt hostility directed at him.  He 
has changed some things -- his posting method, he's made an 
effort to understand his encoding issues, etc.

So I think Steven's approach of responding to his questions, 
at least those that are coherent and don't require reading a 
dozen posts over several threads to piece together, with an 
actual attempt to help (not a bunch of obscure hints, links 
to wikipedia, and you're an idiot replies) is right.
If Nikos fails to respond with better questions, then those 
that do answer will get tired of trying to help and stop 
answering.  In the meantime everyone else can just killfile
or otherwise ignore him rather than egging him on by 
intentionally provoking him (unless of course you enjoy
the results.)

So positive reinforcement for less bad behavior, negative 
reinforcement (which for trolling is NO response, not negative 
responses) for more bad.  Standard behavioral conditioning.

And if it doesn't work it will still be a much nicer and 
quieter here with only Nikos' trolling than with 10x as much 
garbage from the local vigilantes who are more obnoxious
than he.
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ferrous Cranus]

On 17/6/2013 6:46 πμ, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:

I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll --
someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord.
He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like
genuine problems many beginners have.  He seems to have little
knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of
determination to get things working.  I have certainly known
people like that in the real world.


This is the best definition of me.
It is very nice to see that someone has understood my character and 
intentions.


The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files 
and PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an 
actual expert human being.


An yes, i'm not trolling this fine newsgroup.
If it wasn't for the help of some of the nicest fellows here my site 
would be up and working neither with Python 3.3.2 nor with 2.6.


Many difficulties that occurred to me when trying to write some code 
were addresses here making my website actually happen.


I could have made it to Joomla(that's web design) instead of Python(web 
development_ but i really like Python and the reason i ask in detail is 
because i don't want only provided code that will help address an issue 
i have, but i want to know how things work.


Thanks for understanding me ruspy.

--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rusi]

On Jun 16, 12:54 am, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:

 ... killfile him and shut the fuck up.

Ok. Advice taken. Thanks.
-- 
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Denis McMahon]

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 12:32:56 +0300, Nick the Gr33k wrote:

 I'mm not trolling man, i just have hard time understanding why numbers
 acts as strings.

It depends on the context.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcma...@gmail.com
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Zero Piraeus]

:

On 14 June 2013 08:50, Nick the Gr33k supp...@superhost.gr wrote:

 So, if i had no interest of actually learning python i would just cut n'
 paste provided code without worrying what it actually does, since knowing
 that came form you would be enough to know that works.

Worrying what it actually does is good; an inquiring mind is a
prerequisite for becoming a good programmer.

Another prerequisite is discipline. That means the discipline to try
and work out for yourself what's going on, rather than repeatedly
spamming this list with trivial enquiries.

It also means the discipline to both read and type carefully: until
and unless you learn to take more care in how you express yourself,
both in code and in prose, you will be plagued by syntax errors and
frustrated responses respectively.

I have only skimmed it, but you might find the following tutorial helpful:

  http://learnpythonthehardway.org/

Many of the early exercises may seem too basic, and you'll be tempted
to skip them - given your conduct here, I imagine you'll be *strongly*
tempted to skip them. Don't. You need to learn discipline.

 -[]z.
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Robert Kern]

On 2013-06-15 03:09, Cameron Simpson wrote:

On 15Jun2013 10:42, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote:
| D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net writes:
| Even for those who do participate by email, though, your approach is
| broken:
|  My answer is simple.  Get a proper email system that filters out
|  duplicates.
|
| The message sent to the individual typically arrives earlier (since it
| is sent straight from you to the individual), and the message on the
| forum arrives later (since it typically requires more processing).
|
| But since we're participating in the discussion on the forum and not in
| individual email, it is the later one we want, and the earlier one
| should be deleted.

They're the same message! (Delivered twice.) Replying to either is equivalent.
So broadly I don't care which gets deleted; it works regardless.

| So at the point the first message arrives, it isn't a duplicate. The
| mail program will show it anyway, because “remove duplicates” can't
| catch it when there's no duplicate yet.

But it can when the second one arrives. This is true regardless of
the delivery order.


Ben said that he doesn't use email for this list. Neither do I. We use one of 
the newsgroup mirrors. If you Cc us, we will get a reply on the newsgroup (where 
we want it) and a reply in our email (where we don't). The two systems cannot 
talk to each other to delete the other message.



| You do this by using your mail client's “reply to list” function, which
| uses the RFC 3696 information in every mailing list message.

No need, but a valid option.

| Is there any mail client which doesn't have this function? If so, use
| your vendor's bug reporting system to request this feature as standard,
| and/or switch to a better mail client until they fix that.

Sorry, I could have sworn you said you weren't using a mail client for this...


He's suggesting that *you* who are using a mail reader to use the reply to 
list functionality or request it if it is not present.


--
Robert Kern

I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth.
  -- Umberto Eco

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Ben Finney]

Cameron Simpson c...@zip.com.au writes:

 On 15Jun2013 10:42, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote:
 | The message sent to the individual typically arrives earlier (since
 | it is sent straight from you to the individual), and the message on
 | the forum arrives later (since it typically requires more
 | processing).
 | 
 | But since we're participating in the discussion on the forum and not
 | in individual email, it is the later one we want, and the earlier
 | one should be deleted.

 They're the same message! (Delivered twice.) Replying to either is
 equivalent.

Wrong. They have the same Message-Id, but one of them is delivered via
the mailing list, and has the correct RFC 3696 fields in the header to
continue the discussion there.

The one delivered individually is the one to discard, since it was not
delivered via the mailing list.

 Bah. Plenty of us like both. In the inbox alerts me that someone
 replied to _my_ post, and in the python mail gets it nicely threaded.

Your mail client doesn't alert you to a message addressed to you?

 Sorry, I could have sworn you said you weren't using a mail client for
 this...

As I already said, this is demonstrating the fact that “reply to all” is
broken even for the use case of participating via email.

-- 
 \  “Software patents provide one more means of controlling access |
  `\  to information. They are the tool of choice for the internet |
_o__) highwayman.” —Anthony Taylor |
Ben Finney

-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[D'Arcy J.M. Cain]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:29:35 +1000
Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote:
  Bah. Plenty of us like both. In the inbox alerts me that someone
  replied to _my_ post, and in the python mail gets it nicely
  threaded.
 
 Your mail client doesn't alert you to a message addressed to you?

Every message in my mailbox is addressed to me otherwise I wouldn't
get it.  Do you mean the To: line?  Which address?  I have about a
dozen addresses not counting the plus sign addresses like the one you
use for this list. Which one should I treat as special?

  Sorry, I could have sworn you said you weren't using a mail client
  for this...
 
 As I already said, this is demonstrating the fact that “reply to all”
 is broken even for the use case of participating via email.

As the person who proposed this I would like to point out that I never
suggested reply to all”.  I suggested including the poster that you
are replying to.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/|  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082)(eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: da...@vex.net, VOIP: sip:da...@vex.net
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:

 I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.

In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth 
would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already 
getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.


-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:

 I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.

 In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
 would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
 getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.

Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

--
Kwpolska http://kwpolska.tk | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail| always bottom-post
http://asciiribbon.org| http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[D'Arcy J.M. Cain]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200
Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick kwpol...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
  In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
  would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
  getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
 
 Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
 This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
duplicate then he will be presented with both.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/|  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082)(eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: da...@vex.net, VOIP: sip:da...@vex.net
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:

 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:

 I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.

 In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
 would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
 getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
 
 Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
 This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

Wrong. I got two copies. One via comp.lang.python, and one direct to me.


-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:07 PM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200
 Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick kwpol...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
  In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
  would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
  getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.

 Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
 This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

 Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
 the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
 correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
 duplicate then he will be presented with both.

The source code seems to think otherwise:

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 Wrong. I got two copies. One via comp.lang.python, and one direct to me.

You are subscribed through Usenet and not
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list, in which case
the above doesn’t apply, because Mailman throws the mail to Usenet and
not you personally.

--
Kwpolska http://kwpolska.tk | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail| always bottom-post
http://asciiribbon.org| http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Nick the Gr33k]

On 15/6/2013 7:41 μμ, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:


I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.


In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.


Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

--
Kwpolska http://kwpolska.tk | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail| always bottom-post
http://asciiribbon.org| http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html


You are spamming my thread.

--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rusi]

On Jun 15, 10:30 pm, Nick the Gr33k supp...@superhost.gr wrote:

 You are spamming my thread.

With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Michael Torrie]

On 06/15/2013 11:30 AM, Nick the Gr33k wrote:
 You are spamming my thread.

No he's not.  The subject is changed on this branch of the thread, so
it's easy to see in any good e-mail reader that this sub-thread or
branch is diverting.  This is proper list etiquette.


-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:21 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:

 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:07 PM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain da...@druid.net
 wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200
 Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick kwpol...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
  In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
  would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
  getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.

 Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
 This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

 Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
 the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
 correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
 duplicate then he will be presented with both.
 
 The source code seems to think otherwise:

Mailman is not the only mailing list software in the world, and the 
feature you are referring to is optional.


 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/
mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py
 
 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 Wrong. I got two copies. One via comp.lang.python, and one direct to
 me.
 
 You are subscribed through Usenet and not
 http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list, in which case the
 above doesn’t apply, because Mailman throws the mail to Usenet and not
 you personally.

I still get two copies if you CC me. That's still unnecessary and rude. 
If I wanted a copy emailed to me, I'd subscribe via email rather than via 
news. Whether you agree or not, I'd appreciate if you respect my wishes 
rather than try to wiggle out of it on a technicality.



-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Mark Lawrence]

On 15/06/2013 18:30, Nick the Gr33k wrote:

On 15/6/2013 7:41 μμ, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:


I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.


In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.


Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

--
Kwpolska http://kwpolska.tk | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail| always bottom-post
http://asciiribbon.org| http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html


You are spamming my thread.



Funniest thing I've read in years, try taking up writing comedy instead 
of anything involving computing.


--
Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are 
watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green. Snooker 
commentator 'Whispering' Ted Lowe.


Mark Lawrence

--
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote:

 With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!

If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory 
posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't 
be the only one kill-filed.

If you have nothing helpful to say, send it to /dev/null.


-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Andreas Perstinger]

Nick the Gr33k supp...@superhost.gr wrote:
You are spamming my thread.

Well, you don't own this thread. In fact nobody owns it. This is a
public forum and thus anybody can answer to any post as he likes.

Bye, Andreas
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rusi]

On Jun 15, 10:52 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote:
  With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!

 If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory
 posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't
 be the only one kill-filed.

At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part
of the problem.

Others -- Fabio -- have indicated their wish to leave the list due to
everything becoming Nikos-tainted.

Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him.

Let me remind you of your post: 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/649581.html

In this post you have imputed masturbation to first-time poster for a
quite valid question.
[I am assuming that google is correct in informing me that choking the
chicken means that].
This is way beyond being rude uncalled-for and generally unacceptable.

I suggest it is because of something else you said -- viz that Nikos
mails are draining you.

In short because you are unable to restrain your charitable behavior
towards Nikos -- note that this is charity at public (the group)
expense -- you are behaving abominably in other contexts, including
towards first time posters.

If you must help Nikos, please do it in private.
He is not wanted here.
[This is not specifically addressed to you Steven alone but to all who
are feeling charitable at public expense]
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Nick the Gr33k]

On 15/6/2013 8:47 μμ, Steven D'Aprano wrote:


I still get two copies if you CC me. That's still unnecessary and rude.
If I wanted a copy emailed to me, I'd subscribe via email rather than via
news. Whether you agree or not, I'd appreciate if you respect my wishes
rather than try to wiggle out of it on a technicality.


I'am also getting 2 notifications two of any response in TB

One in the news section and one by mail.
Please do not CC.

If i wanted mail notification i would subscribed via email.


--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:18:03 -0700, rusi wrote:

 At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
 supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part of
 the problem.

And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos, 
because they have learned from them.

You replied to Antoon, and agreed with his position that we should shun 
Nikos, then *immediately* contradicted yourself by stating that Robert 
Kern's helpful answers were the ideal. And then, just to further 
demonstrate that your actions are at best inconsistent and at worst 
hypocritical, you have since gone on to fire barbs at Nikos instead of 
ignoring him. So please tend to the beam in your own eye before pointing 
at the mote in mine.


 Others -- Fabio -- have indicated their wish to leave the list due to
 everything becoming Nikos-tainted.

That would be disappointing, but there's nothing I can do about it.


 Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him.

Then why don't they? Don't feed the troll includes trying to beat him 
into submission with insults and half-witty remarks.

This is not about Nikos. It's about those who are also doing their bit to 
make this community an ugly, hostile place. I won't mention names -- you 
know who you are. Those who take it upon themselves to bait and prod and 
poke Nikos with insults and inflammatory replies. Appointing themselves 
Internet Police and making ridiculous claims that Nikos ought to be 
reported to the police. Sending bogus complaints to the domain registrar. 
There is a word for this sort of behaviour: bullying. I don't care how 
morally justified you think you are, you are now just as big a part of 
the problem as Nikos.


 Let me remind you of your post:
 http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/649581.html
 
 In this post you have imputed masturbation to first-time poster for a
 quite valid question.
 [I am assuming that google is correct in informing me that choking the
 chicken means that].
 This is way beyond being rude uncalled-for and generally unacceptable.

Not as rude as making such a misleading characterisation of my post. The 
original poster's reply is one click away from that link:

Thank you for your help and sense of humor... all the best, Buford

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/649680.html


If you insist on taking umbrage on behalf of the OP, I can't stop you, 
but that says more about you than about me.



-- 
Steven
-- 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On 06/15/2013 12:18 PM, rusi wrote:
 On Jun 15, 10:52 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
 +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote:
  With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!

 If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory
 posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't
 be the only one kill-filed.
 
 At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
 supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part
 of the problem.

Nikos is only secondarily the problem, Steven not at all.

The primary problem is a (relatively small) number of people
who respond to every post by Nikos with a barrage of insults,
demands, (what they think are) witty repartee, hints intended 
to make Nikos learn something, useless (to Nikos) links, 
new threads to discuss the Nikos problem, and other trash 
that is far more obnoxious that anything Nikos posts and just 
serves to egg him on.

Steven's advice on how to deal with Nikos was probably the
most sensible thing I've seen posted here on the subject.

I suggest that if you can and want to answer Nikos' question, 
do so directly and with a serious attempt address what it is 
he seems not to get, 
 or
killfile him and shut the fuck up.

[...] 
 Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him.

Don't be silly.  You don't know what everyone (the vast 
majority of whom read and don't post) here think.
-- 
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Nick the Gr33k]

On 15/6/2013 10:54 μμ, ru...@yahoo.com wrote:

On 06/15/2013 12:18 PM, rusi wrote:

On Jun 15, 10:52 pm, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote:

With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!


If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory
posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't
be the only one kill-filed.


At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by
supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part
of the problem.


Nikos is only secondarily the problem, Steven not at all.

The primary problem is a (relatively small) number of people
who respond to every post by Nikos with a barrage of insults,
demands, (what they think are) witty repartee, hints intended
to make Nikos learn something, useless (to Nikos) links,
new threads to discuss the Nikos problem, and other trash
that is far more obnoxious that anything Nikos posts and just
serves to egg him on.

Steven's advice on how to deal with Nikos was probably the
most sensible thing I've seen posted here on the subject.

I suggest that if you can and want to answer Nikos' question,
do so directly and with a serious attempt address what it is
he seems not to get,
  or
killfile him and shut the fuck up.


[...]
Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him.


Don't be silly.  You don't know what everyone (the vast
majority of whom read and don't post) here think.



Thank you ruspy.

--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[rurpy]

On Saturday, June 15, 2013 2:04:31 PM UTC-6, Νικόλαος Κούρας wrote:
 Thank you ruspy.

Don't thank me.  You are not contributing in a positive way to the situation.
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[alex23]

On Jun 16, 5:29 am, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos,
 because they have learned from them.

I take it you'll also be critical of people on list now saying we
don't do your homework for you? Or is there some fundamental
difference here that I'm missing?

That others have derived value from some of the desperate flailings to
fill Nikos' alleged ignorance doesn't mean there's any value in his
original posts. I also strongly disagree with your claim that you've
given useful answers to him: his reposting *code you've written for
him* asking others to modify it to his liking would indicate he's
learned nothing at all from your approach.

Well, nothing other than that if he keeps this crap up, there
apparently *are* people who will repeatedly do his job for him, which
I guess makes you the current god of his cargo cult. So, uh, well done?
-- 
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Mark Lawrence]

On 15/06/2013 22:47, alex23 wrote:

On Jun 16, 5:29 am, Steven D'Aprano steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:

And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos,
because they have learned from them.


I take it you'll also be critical of people on list now saying we
don't do your homework for you? Or is there some fundamental
difference here that I'm missing?

That others have derived value from some of the desperate flailings to
fill Nikos' alleged ignorance doesn't mean there's any value in his
original posts. I also strongly disagree with your claim that you've
given useful answers to him: his reposting *code you've written for
him* asking others to modify it to his liking would indicate he's
learned nothing at all from your approach.

Well, nothing other than that if he keeps this crap up, there
apparently *are* people who will repeatedly do his job for him, which
I guess makes you the current god of his cargo cult. So, uh, well done?



+1

--
Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are 
watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green. Snooker 
commentator 'Whispering' Ted Lowe.


Mark Lawrence

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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:21 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:
 The source code seems to think otherwise:

 Mailman is not the only mailing list software in the world, and the
 feature you are referring to is optional.

 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/
 mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py

Mailman is the software that runs python-list@python.org, so this *is*
applicable to everyone who reads the mailing list (including myself).
The fact that there's other mailing list software isn't significant;
the fact that there's comp.lang.python, though, is. But I think people
have realized that now.

ChrisA
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 09:09:37 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Steven D'Aprano
 steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
 On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:21 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:
 The source code seems to think otherwise:

 Mailman is not the only mailing list software in the world, and the
 feature you are referring to is optional.

 http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/
src/
 mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py
 
 Mailman is the software that runs python-list@python.org, so this *is*
 applicable to everyone who reads the mailing list (including myself).
 The fact that there's other mailing list software isn't significant;

I'm not making an argument about CCing the sender on specifically this 
list, I'm making a general observations about list etiquette in general.



-- 
Steven
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Nick the Gr33k]

On 14/6/2013 12:06 μμ, Heiko Wundram wrote:

Am 14.06.2013 10:37, schrieb Nick the Gr33k:

So everything we see like:

16474
nikos
abc123

everything is a string and nothing is a number? not even number 1?


Come on now, this is _so_ obviously trolling, it's not even remotely
funny anymore. Why doesn't killfiling work with the mailing list version
of the python list? :-(



I'mm not trolling man, i just have hard time understanding why numbers 
acts as strings.


--
What is now proved was at first only imagined!
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Re: Don't feed the troll... (was: Re: A few questiosn about encoding)

[Fábio Santos]

On 14 Jun 2013 10:20, Heiko Wundram modeln...@modelnine.org wrote:

 Am 14.06.2013 10:37, schrieb Nick the Gr33k:

 So everything we see like:

 16474
 nikos
 abc123

 everything is a string and nothing is a number? not even number 1?


 Come on now, this is _so_ obviously trolling, it's not even remotely
funny anymore. Why doesn't killfiling work with the mailing list version of
the python list? :-(

I have skimmed the archives for this month, and I estimate that a third of
this month's activity on this list was helping this person. About 80% of
that is wasted in explaining basic concepts he refuses to read in links
given to him. A depressingly large number of replies to his posts are
seemingly ignored.

Since this is a lot of spam, I feel like leaving the list, but I also
honestly want to help people use python and the replies to questions of
others often give me much insight on several matters.
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Re: Don't feed the troll...

[Antoon Pardon]

Op 14-06-13 11:32, Nick the Gr33k schreef:

 I'mm not trolling man, i just have hard time understanding why numbers 
 acts as strings.
They don't. No body claimed numbers acted like strings. What was explained,
was that when numbers are displayed, they are converted into a notational
string, which is then displayed. This to clear you of your confusion between
numerals and numbers which you displayed by writing something like the
binary representation as a number

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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