Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do they actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical issue for end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement such as of just get a faster computer or just get more RAM, then (s)he probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like Java applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these days, just because the vendors/developers don't care. I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks. And that's a really good thing. But unfortunately, these days, it's rather the exception. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le lundi 23 décembre 2013 18:59:41 UTC+1, Wolfgang Keller a écrit :
On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do
they actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical
issue for end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement
such as of just get a faster computer or just get more RAM,
then (s)he probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like
Java applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these
days, just because the vendors/developers don't care.
I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.
And that's a really good thing.
But unfortunately, these days, it's rather the exception.
Memory? Let me laugh!
sys.getsizeof('a')
26
sys.getsizeof('€')
40
40 - 26
14
sys.getsizeof('\U0001')
44
44 - 26
18
I'm deeply convinced, one will soon see that
technology in CID font.
jmf
--
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 6:05 AM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Memory? Let me laugh! Is it a crime to hijack an already-hijacked thread? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 23/12/2013 19:14, Chris Angelico wrote: On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 6:05 AM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Memory? Let me laugh! Is it a crime to hijack an already-hijacked thread? ChrisA Yes, especially when written with our favourite bug ridden pile of garbage. Perhaps we should write up something for the Python wiki so that everyone can send double line feeds from any technology, that way everybody would feel at home as we'd all be in the same boat. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 4:25 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Jai jaiprakashsingh...@gmail.com wrote: GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed. There are lots of book here so I am confuse which book i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer There are many ways to build a GUI with Python. Some of the more popular toolkits are Tk (tkinter), wxWidgets (wxpython), and GTK. Explore those and see which one you like; I personally quite like GTK, and the others have their fans too. There are GUI builders for each of the above (I think; definitely wx and GTK do), or you can build everything directly in code (my preferred style). Play around with it and see what you like! I also like GTK. I thought it would be relevant to point out that pygtk only works on Python 2.x; gi.repository.Gtk works on 2.x and 3.x. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Den 2013-12-20 skrev Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk: On 20/12/2013 17:52, Martin Schöön wrote: Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit spoiled when it comes to robustness :-) You never had the pleasure of working on VMS then? :) Only very, very little and I have no clear memories of it. It was back in the days before I learned to save my work every few seconds just in case because just in case didn't happen to us then. I took OS stability for granted in those days. /Martin -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
This thread hasn't been close to Python for while now and should be shut down. But, it is actually kind of interesting since you debate possible mechanisms behind the behaviour of my Windows box at work: Not responding is happening to me daily for any application including Microsoft's own Office Suite. I hoped it would go away when we moved from Vista to W7 but it didn't. In all fairness, our computers have both corporate and HP crapware installed so Microsoft may be innocent. Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit spoiled when it comes to robustness :-) Now, let's leave this behind and spend time on Python -- something I with a formal programming education dating back to 1980 and F77 find fascinating. /Martin -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 20/12/2013 17:52, Martin Schöön wrote: Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit spoiled when it comes to robustness :-) You never had the pleasure of working on VMS then? :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le vendredi 20 décembre 2013 18:52:44 UTC+1, Martin Schöön a écrit : This thread hasn't been close to Python for while now and should be shut down. But, it is actually kind of interesting since you debate possible mechanisms behind the behaviour of my Windows box at work: Not responding is happening to me daily for any application including Microsoft's own Office Suite. I hoped it would go away when we moved from Vista to W7 but it didn't. In all fairness, our computers have both corporate and HP crapware installed so Microsoft may be innocent. Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit spoiled when it comes to robustness :-) Now, let's leave this behind and spend time on Python -- something I with a formal programming education dating back to 1980 and F77 find fascinating. The fact, that a main app window [%] falls in a Ne répond pas, (Not responding) state [*] with a mouse pointer becoming a waiting pointer is not so dramatic. As I pointed, despite this message in the title bar, the app works properly(?). The fact, that system becomes unstable is more critical. While being in that [*]-state, any attempt to work with the mouse, eg clicking on an another app window, leads to a [%] kill and to a msg box Python has stopped working The Python process can be killed, it does not hurt the system. I'm observing this with the Qt-derivatives, PySide and PyQt4, and Python 3.3. Not with Python 3.2. From where does it come from? No idea. I'm inclined to think, it's on the Qt side. Windows 7 pro jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 20:00:14 UTC+1, wxjm...@gmail.com a écrit : Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a écrit : On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Something is wrong then. Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but your experience with Windows is not normal. I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a re-install? Virus or malware? Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7? I tend to agree with you. However, I should say I'm observing a strange phenomenon. Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2. If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute) timeit.timeit(a = '\u2345'*10; 'x' in a) it runs smoothly. but if I run the same task with Py3.3 my window seems to be idled, and a message like, Ne répond pas (something like Do no respond) appeares in the title bar of the window (my application title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the win7 waiting cursor. The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and the resulting values are correct. How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting values are in exact concordance with the values I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but built with tkinter! Same experience with PyQt4. Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.8.6 Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.10 jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 19/12/2013 08:10, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Same experience with PyQt4. Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.8.6 Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.10 jmf Your point being? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le jeudi 19 décembre 2013 09:25:14 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a écrit : On 19/12/2013 08:10, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Same experience with PyQt4. Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.8.6 Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.10 jmf Your point being? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. The point is: Py3.3 and Qt on Windows 7 pro does not work. jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 19/12/2013 09:10, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Le jeudi 19 décembre 2013 09:25:14 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a écrit : On 19/12/2013 08:10, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Same experience with PyQt4. Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.8.6 Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR - 4.10 jmf Your point being? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. The point is: Py3.3 and Qt on Windows 7 pro does not work. jmf Well that's rather sad, but did you have to send all the blank space above just to say that? With whom have you raised bug reports? What has their response(s) been? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage. Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but the GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and feel is so hideous that I would say from personal experience with numerous Java applications that there is little that's worse for user productivity than a Java application running on Windows. Well, a web application might top it. Pray tell is there anything that is not ridiculous garbage or is your computer so hopelessly broken that everything fails on it? You've already dissed on Windows, Firefox, the web, Java. If Windows, Firefox, the web and Java are everything that you know of in terms of IT, then I pity those poor people who have to succumb to your competence. Surely Python must suck also because it's slow and interpreted. I don't draw skewed parallels. Instead I base my judgments on my personal experience from those decades of screenwork for various tasks with various applications on various systems, correlated with the experience of all those knowledgeable people I've learned to know during that time, as well as logical deductive thinking. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/19/13 10:10 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage. Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but the GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and feel is so hideous that I would say from personal experience with numerous Java applications that there is little that's worse for user productivity than a Java application running on Windows. Well, a web application might top it. Pray tell is there anything that is not ridiculous garbage or is your computer so hopelessly broken that everything fails on it? You've already dissed on Windows, Firefox, the web, Java. If Windows, Firefox, the web and Java are everything that you know of in terms of IT, then I pity those poor people who have to succumb to your competence. He didn't say it was all he knew. It sounds like you are saying he is incompetent. I hope that isn't what you meant. -- Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Something is wrong then. You bet. Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but your experience with Windows is not normal. With Windows it *is* normal. An experienced software developer once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on Windows does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to single tasking. Or (non-)cooperative multitasking at best, depending on how dissocial the developer of that process is. I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see this occur with any regularity. Well, because you only managed those computers, you never tried to accomplish actual *work* with them. So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a re-install? Virus or malware? Windows itself is the problem. Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7? Won't change anything. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: With Windows it *is* normal. An experienced software developer once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on Windows does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to single tasking. Or (non-)cooperative multitasking at best, depending on how dissocial the developer of that process is. What?! I've supported Windows for quite a few years now (ever since I stopped being OS/2-exclusive (and will do until I can be Linux-exclusive... too many people use it for me to drop it). There is nothing cooperative or single-threaded about Windows multitasking around I/O. I don't disagree that it absolutely sucks compared to Linux (even OS/2 from the 1990s beats today's Windows in a few areas), but not that one. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:32:37 +0100, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: With Windows it *is* normal. An experienced software developer once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on Windows does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to single tasking. Or (non-)cooperative multitasking at best, depending on how dissocial the developer of that process is. If you were told this 20 years ago, perhaps. But Windows hasn't been running on DOS for a long time. Starting with NT 3.1, that's nonsense. -- DaveA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Dave Angel da...@davea.name wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:32:37 +0100, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: With Windows it *is* normal. An experienced software developer once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on Windows does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to single tasking. Or (non-)cooperative multitasking at best, depending on how dissocial the developer of that process is. If you were told this 20 years ago, perhaps. But Windows hasn't been running on DOS for a long time. Starting with NT 3.1, that's nonsense. Actually, one thing I might believe is that when one process trips a page fault and has to be swapped back in, all other processes freeze, waiting on the memory manager. But I'd want to see some evidence that that's the case. It's plausible (based on some of the problems I've seen) but by no means necessarily true. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 20:00:14 UTC+1, wxjm...@gmail.com a écrit : Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a écrit : On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Something is wrong then. Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but your experience with Windows is not normal. I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a re-install? Virus or malware? Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7? I tend to agree with you. However, I should say I'm observing a strange phenomenon. Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2. If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute) timeit.timeit(a = '\u2345'*10; 'x' in a) it runs smoothly. but if I run the same task with Py3.3 my window seems to be idled, and a message like, Ne répond pas (something like Do no respond) appeares in the title bar of the window (my application title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the win7 waiting cursor. The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and the resulting values are correct. How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting values are in exact concordance with the values I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but built with tkinter! Installation of PySide 1.2.1 for Py32, Py33 - same effect. win32, shiboken, Visual Studio, Qt: ??? jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 18/12/2013 09:24, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: [once again snip all the double spaced crap from google groups] Installation of PySide 1.2.1 for Py32, Py33 - same effect. win32, shiboken, Visual Studio, Qt: ??? jmf The point of this is? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
it has been decided to go unicode.
Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
len('ሴЃ')
5
---
It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
that some improvement happened.
I attempted to explain unicode...
jmf
--
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Am 17.12.13 06:37, schrieb Rick Johnson:
On Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:01:53 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
low-level language with some interface to Python. The main
difference between this hypothetical Python GUI and Tcl
is that Tcl is a Turing-complete interpreter which lives
in it's own process.
And how many times would you take advantage of that turning
complete functionality in reality? My answer... ZERO! How
many Tcl calls have you, or anybody, made that did have
direct business with creating or managing a TK gui? HOW
MANY???
There are some useful extensions to Tk written in Tcl. For example,
there is tablelist - a tree widget or multicolumn listbox in pure Tcl.
By passing it to the Tcl interpreter, you can wrap it up for Python -
that's what Kevin Walzer did at
http://tkinter.unpythonic.net/wiki/TableListWrapper
It would take many man-month to reproduce this thing in Python.
Another example is the file open dialog (import tkFileDialog). On
Windows and OSX, it uses the native variants, but on X11 it uses a very
outdated, ugly and hard to use thing bundled with Tk. With just a few
lines executed by some Tk.eval('source myfixes.tcl'), I overwrite this
dialog box with the one created by Schelte Bron:
http://wiki.tcl.tk/15897
For reference, here is myfixes.tcl:
lappend auto_path [file dirname [info script]]
if {[tk windowingsystem] == x11 } {
package require fsdialog
interp alias {} tk_getOpenFile {} ttk::getOpenFile
interp alias {} tk_getSaveFile {} ttk::getSaveFile
interp alias {} tk_chooseDirectory {} ttk::chooseDirectory
}
Christian
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 07:58, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
it has been decided to go unicode.
Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
len('ሴЃ')
5
---
It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
that some improvement happened.
I attempted to explain unicode...
jmf
wxPython 3 (Phoenix) will be the first version that supports Python 3.
This will obviously mean that for the first time, wxPython will be able
to take full advantage of the superb PEP393 Flexible String
Representation (FSR) which is available in Python 3.3+.
--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.
Mark Lawrence
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 09:33:24 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a écrit :
On 17/12/2013 07:58, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
it has been decided to go unicode.
Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
len('ሴЃ')
5
---
It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
that some improvement happened.
I attempted to explain unicode...
jmf
wxPython 3 (Phoenix) will be the first version that supports Python 3.
This will obviously mean that for the first time, wxPython will be able
to take full advantage of the superb PEP393 Flexible String
Representation (FSR) which is available in Python 3.3+.
--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.
I'm very happy for you.
You should at least serialized the tasks.
- wxPhoenix (wrapper of wxWidgets) is one thing
- wxPhoenix for Python3 / Python2 is something else
- Ditto for the FSR
- Ditto for unicode
For your information, that's at those times I decided
to have a look at the Qt derivatives, it was a very,
very good idea.
jmf
--
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:58:15 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:
From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most interesting. I used
all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then it has been decided to go
unicode.
Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only the top of the
iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
len('ሴЃ')
5
What does that have to do with wxPython? It looks like you're just mis-
using Python 2.7.
In Python 2.7, 'ሴЃ' is not a Unicode string, it is a byte string. The
exact bytes you get are not well-defined but on many systems you may get
a UTF-8 encoded byte string:
py sys.version
'2.7.4 (default, Apr 18 2013, 17:48:59) \n[GCC 4.4.5]'
py for b in 'ሴЃ':
... print hex(ord(b)), b
...
0xe1
0x88 �
0xb4 �
0xd0
0x83 �
If you use a Unicode string instead:
py for c in u'ሴЃ':
... print hex(ord(c)), c
...
0x1234 ሴ
0x403 Ѓ
py for b in u'ሴЃ'.encode('utf-8'):
... print hex(ord(b)), b
...
0xe1
0x88 �
0xb4 �
0xd0
0x83 �
Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't
shown it here.
--
Steven
--
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Am 16.12.13 23:40, schrieb Chris Angelico: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Christian Gollwitzer aurio...@gmx.de wrote: Let the flame war begin! I'll try to avoid flamage :) :) So let's vigorously discuss about facts;) But my rule of thumb with bash scripts is: If it exceeds a page or two in length, it's probably time it got rewritten in an application language. When a program is the size of gitk (10KLOC), the benefits relating to interactive use (as you mention below) become less significant, and benefits relating to discoverability of the more obscure features become more significant. I do not know, whether bash has means to structure large programs, I suppose not. Tcl has (see below), and concerning discoverability, see also below. It does command substitution (indeed the brackets [] do) and is one of the key concepts of Tcl. mc is probably the command from msgcat which translates i18n strings. Complaining about these basic things is like complaining about indentation in Python. Okay. Now, how am I to figure out where this command comes from? It's not a host command (typing mc at the bash prompt comes up failure), and it's not defined in the script itself (at least, I can't find proc mc anywhere); is it a Tcl built-in? Where do I start looking? Usually, I run the program in tkcon, an excellent interactive shell for Tcl. There you type edit mc, and it shows you the definition, plus you can change it, send it back to the program and see how the modified program behaves now (without restarting it!) Under the hood, it executes commands like info commands, info args, info body, which do the work. If it tells you that there is no such thing as mc, it came from a compiled extension (a C procedure). Indeed, in this case you are out of luck, to my knowledge there is no info which extension loads that thing. But you could observe it before startup by putting up a command trace (some sort of callback) on mc. In the gitk case, mc comes from these lines: package require msgcat namespace import ::msgcat::mc Now, be prepared: These lines do almost the same as import msgcat from msgcat import mc would do in Python. *What is this? I heard Tcl has no modules?* Don't listen to these people, today (well, namespaces exist since 8.0, 1997, packages date back further) you can use namespaces and packages to structure your programs and separate data. And because Tcl is highly introspective, you can ask about almost everything: (src) 61 % namespace import mc (src) 62 % namespace origin mc ::msgcat::mc (src) 63 % (there is only one imported command in gitk, namespace import returns a list) About globals: Yes global gives you a true global, but namespaces have namespace variables, which you should use instead. The awkward thing is that you need to import these (as the globals) into every proc which uses them, but by using an OO framework such as Snit, this burden is taken away from the programmer. Still Python *has* advantages here. If there is a docstring, you can get help() about the unknown thing, it has a type() and in Tcl, the package author is responsible for wrapping the package content into a namespace. Something like import Tkinter as Tk is not possible in Tcl (well, you could rename the namespace, but if not carefully written, it may break the package). * Interpreters in threads. There is no GIL, Tcl interpreters are thread safe and more than one can coexist in a process and run concurrently. This is accessible from script level through the Threads package. Nice, though Python's threading and/or multiprocessing can do 90% of what people want. Side point: What about Tk? Can you (a) run separate GUI threads for separate windows? (b) manipulate widgets created by another thread? You can't run Tk more than once, that applies to almost every toolkit I know. But you can pass a message to the main thread to do it for you. This is quite easy; it looks like thread::send -async $main [list doit $somedata] You pass an arbitrary Tcl command which executes in the main thread as soon as it is idle. In fact, because of the embedded event loop in Tcl (not bound to Tk), you rarely need threads at all. Asynchronous I/O is very easy in Tcl (fileevent command). That one question here with replicating nc to control a device would be a textbook example of fileevent usage in Tcl. So there definitely are some advantages that Tcl has over Python. Put against them is a superior object model, a large corpus of first-class object types (dict, set, list, etc[1]), and a syntax that more clearly differentiates names and strings without making variable references look like a lot more than they are. Lists and dicts exist in Tcl as first class objects. You just can't tell them apart from strings. Sets are in tcllib. Python is more strongly typed than Tcl in that respect, which can be an advantage. Specifically doing math is easier in an
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 09:29, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't shown it here. Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that Python 2 and unicode don't mix. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 09:18, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 09:33:24 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a écrit :
On 17/12/2013 07:58, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
it has been decided to go unicode.
Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
len('ሴЃ')
5
---
It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
that some improvement happened.
I attempted to explain unicode...
jmf
wxPython 3 (Phoenix) will be the first version that supports Python 3.
This will obviously mean that for the first time, wxPython will be able
to take full advantage of the superb PEP393 Flexible String
Representation (FSR) which is available in Python 3.3+.
--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.
I'm very happy for you.
You should at least serialized the tasks.
- wxPhoenix (wrapper of wxWidgets) is one thing
- wxPhoenix for Python3 / Python2 is something else
- Ditto for the FSR
- Ditto for unicode
For your information, that's at those times I decided
to have a look at the Qt derivatives, it was a very,
very good idea.
jmf
I haven't the faintest idea what your words above are meant to mean.
Your communication skills are clearly lacking, as you also still insist
on sending us double spaced google crap. Do you not understand the
instructions here https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython ?
--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.
Mark Lawrence
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that Python 2 and unicode don't mix. I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to remember to use the u prefix on your strings. If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no evidence that this is correct -- then it is due to the underlying wx* library, not Python 2. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 10:29:28 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a écrit :
On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:58:15 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:
From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most interesting. I used
all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then it has been decided to go
unicode.
Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only the top of the
iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
len('ሴЃ')
5
What does that have to do with wxPython? It looks like you're just mis-
using Python 2.7.
In Python 2.7, 'ሴЃ' is not a Unicode string, it is a byte string. The
exact bytes you get are not well-defined but on many systems you may get
a UTF-8 encoded byte string:
py sys.version
'2.7.4 (default, Apr 18 2013, 17:48:59) \n[GCC 4.4.5]'
py for b in 'ሴЃ':
... print hex(ord(b)), b
...
0xe1
0x88 �
0xb4 �
0xd0
0x83 �
If you use a Unicode string instead:
py for c in u'ሴЃ':
... print hex(ord(c)), c
...
0x1234 ሴ
0x403 Ѓ
py for b in u'ሴЃ'.encode('utf-8'):
... print hex(ord(b)), b
...
0xe1
0x88 �
0xb4 �
0xd0
0x83 �
Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't
shown it here.
Quich answer.
That's PyShell, the wxPy interpreter.
You are right in pointing all this missmatch: byte string,
unicode, utf-8, mixing a unicode tool kit wiht a non
unicode native engine, plus plenty of related things, ...
You may be not aware. I contributed to wxPython from
practically 2.0, 2.1. 2.2 during 6, 7, 8 yeaurs, testing,
reporting about/with all versions, then I gave up.
---
Yout quote.
Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text...
It's a confusing vision and that's not correct. It's a little bit
more complicate than this.
jmf
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 2013-12-17 11:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that Python 2 and unicode don't mix. I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to remember to use the u prefix on your strings. If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no evidence that this is correct -- It most certainly is not. wxPython has handled Unicode (via `unicode` strings) for many, many years now. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Christian Gollwitzer aurio...@gmx.de wrote: Am 16.12.13 23:40, schrieb Chris Angelico: But my rule of thumb with bash scripts is: If it exceeds a page or two in length, it's probably time it got rewritten in an application language. When a program is the size of gitk (10KLOC), the benefits relating to interactive use (as you mention below) become less significant, and benefits relating to discoverability of the more obscure features become more significant. I do not know, whether bash has means to structure large programs, I suppose not. Tcl has (see below), and concerning discoverability, see also below. You can create functions, which then effectively become new commands. You can source (the . command) another file, which mostly is a #include style of thing. But mainly, a bash script is doing exactly what would happen at the interactive shell (modulo environment differences - your interactive shell might well have a different $PATH or something, but command execution still follows the same rules). If I look at a bash script and see it execute bc, I can type man bc and have a reasonable chance of it being the same thing. In the gitk case, mc comes from these lines: package require msgcat namespace import ::msgcat::mc Now, be prepared: These lines do almost the same as import msgcat from msgcat import mc would do in Python. Okay. Now that you've told me that, I can find those lines... down the very bottom of the script. The first thing I did when trying to figure this out was to go to the top of the file and search for mc, and I didn't find a definition. In Python, it's conventional to put imports at the top, so this would have worked. (Unless there's a from x import *, but this is precisely why that's frowned upon.) Is the convention different in Tcl, or is gitk just laid out unhelpfully? You can't run Tk more than once, that applies to almost every toolkit I know. But you can pass a message to the main thread to do it for you. This is quite easy; it looks like thread::send -async $main [list doit $somedata] Everything I ever did on OS/2 allowed GUI operations from multiple threads. The C APIs, I think, were restricted to manipulating each widget from the thread that created it (or at least, you could confuse yourself thoroughly if you didn't; I always just stuck to this window, this thread); VX-REXX allowed any thread to manipulate any object belonging to that process. If you send a message to a widget, its thread will handle it (and yours will block until you get a response - or you can post a message, which doesn't block); this functions the same whether it's a thread in your process or one in another process. You pass an arbitrary Tcl command which executes in the main thread as soon as it is idle. In fact, because of the embedded event loop in Tcl (not bound to Tk), you rarely need threads at all. Asynchronous I/O is very easy in Tcl (fileevent command). I learned to love async processing a couple of years ago with Pike. You just return a negative number from main(), which normally has no meaning, and it goes into a back-end event loop. (And there are other ways to invoke the back-end.) That can then handle callbacks from files/sockets, clock-based timeouts (call this function in X seconds), GUI events, pretty much everything (except signals - they interrupt everything else, as they should). It takes a bit of getting your head around, if you're used to thread-based programming (as I had been for a decade or so), but it's so convenient. So there definitely are some advantages that Tcl has over Python. Put against them is a superior object model, a large corpus of first-class object types (dict, set, list, etc[1]), and a syntax that more clearly differentiates names and strings without making variable references look like a lot more than they are. [1] What is an etc() in Python? Is this a quizzy question? I have no idea. I mentioned four of Python's fundamental types: the dict, the set, the list, and the etc. :) Lists and dicts exist in Tcl as first class objects. You just can't tell them apart from strings. Sets are in tcllib. Python is more strongly typed than Tcl in that respect, which can be an advantage. Specifically doing math is easier in an evaluation based syntax than in a command based syntax, this sometimes sucks in Tcl. Having grown up with REXX, I completely understand the concept of everything is a string (though REXX does have compound variables, which aren't quite lists, aren't quite dicts, and aren't quite sets, and definitely aren't quite multidimensional anything, but are their own beast with unique semantics); and having since met Python and Pike and other such languages, I prefer object semantics. The only first-class type in REXX is the string; a compound variable is a different sort of name, not a different sort of value, so you can't actually pass an array as
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 11:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that Python 2 and unicode don't mix. I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to remember to use the u prefix on your strings. If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no evidence that this is correct -- then it is due to the underlying wx* library, not Python 2. Sorry folks, I'd been up all night and messed that up completely. I meant to say Personally I am convinced that *IF* wxPython can't handle unicode *IT WILL BE* for the simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that Python 2 and unicode don't mix. It would have been better still if I'd added right at the end particularly well, with this being the impression I get from the bug tracker, with far fewer bugs being raised against Python 3 unicode that I'm aware of rather than Python 2. I'm now crossing my fingers and legs and hoping that my impression is correct. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 14:03:03 UTC+1, Robert Kern a écrit :
On 2013-12-17 11:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:
Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the
simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that
Python 2 and unicode don't mix.
I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as
good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to
remember to use the u prefix on your strings.
If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no
evidence that this is correct --
It most certainly is not. wxPython has handled Unicode (via `unicode`
strings)
for many, many years now.
--
Robert Kern
---
Correct.
Output of my last interactive interpreter I wrote with
that toolkit.
Python 2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on
win32
psi runs psizero.py...
...psizero has been executed
'€'
€
print('€')
€
u'€'
?
print(u'€')
?
u'\u20ac'
€
print(u'\u20ac')
€
And if I cut/copy/paste something like this:
'ሴ䕧'
into that interpreter, it behaves like this ('??'):
u'asdf'
asdf
'??'
??
999
999
éléphant
éléphant
'éléphant'
éléphant
jmf
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Addendum. I should say, I had also a lot of fun in writing my own styling engine. Because when one has to deal with a language, which does not recognize its own keywords... 1and 444 444 tokenize.py could have been a solution, but it's really too slow. jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 14:43, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Addendum. I should say, I had also a lot of fun in writing my own styling engine. Because when one has to deal with a language, which does not recognize its own keywords... 1and 444 444 tokenize.py could have been a solution, but it's really too slow. jmf To what, where is your context, my crystal ball is broken again? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
For example Firefox implements its entire GUI in Javascript using XML GUI definitions. Which has made Firefox essentially unusable because it will fall into koma (Not Responding) for minutes upon almost each and every mouseclick. Unfortunately I don't know any significantly better alternatives. And all modern web apps are a combination of many languages and domains, most of which are compiled in the traditional sense. Web apps are the most efficient way I know of to make users who have to get actual work done as inefficient as possible. It's especially an extremely effective way, together with Firefox's responsiveness, to make any operating system as obscenely unusable as Windows. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
The other thing, specially if you would make a customer project, I don't know how to pack the app written in python in an installer. If you want your application to be actually user-friendly, you make it available as an installer-less zip archive. It works with Python applications, no matter whether they use PyGTK, wxPython or PyQt. Perhaps I am wrong, and you could give me in exchange an advise ?! Python is probably the best language for application implementation in general. Anything that would really need to be faster than python itself allows can easily be implemented in compiled Python à la Pyrex et al. I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with it's native compiler. How would it be with wxPython ?! It isn't an issue. With that pathological non-operating system Microsoft (Not Responding), as soon as your application has to do any I/O, or if there's any other process (virus scanner, file system indexer) running that does I/O, any computer will be unusable for productive work anyway. On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do they actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical issue for end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement such as of just get a faster computer or just get more RAM, then (s)he probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like Java applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these days, just because the vendors/developers don't care. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Please check JYTHON and those ready-for-novice GUI tools in java. All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage. Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but the GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and feel is so hideous that I would say from personal experience with numerous Java applications that there is little that's worse for user productivity than a Java application running on Windows. Well, a web application might top it. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive. The cost of a commercial PyQt license for a single developer is £350 (GBP). You may pay in either US Dollars, Euros or GBP. I didn't write the second paragraph. Please learn to quote, thanks. (£420 incl. VAT for UK and select EU entities) For a commercial developer that doesn't appear much to me. I know Qt applications that cost ~100.000 EUR per seat. Others are so valuable that they simply aren't sold at all. Wingware since recently uses PyQt and their prices don't seem to have skyrocketed since the migration from PyGTK. one [license] per developer For some people, it might be a lot. Why waste money on something, that has an almost-identical free-for-everyone version? (which also is easier to install, BTW) Because PySide is *far* from identical. PyQt does not include Qt itself. You must also obtain an appropriately licensed copy (either the commercial version from Digia or the LGPL version from the Qt Project). Thanks again for learning to quote correctly. I did not write this paragraph. So, you have four options: If you need something that's actually supported, Pyside (currently) doesn't look like a credible option to me. And for home users, education etc., the GPL version of PyQt seems perfect to me. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Something is wrong then. Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but your experience with Windows is not normal. I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a re-install? Virus or malware? Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/17/2013 10:07 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do they actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical issue for end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement such as of just get a faster computer or just get more RAM, then (s)he probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like Java applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these days, just because the vendors/developers don't care. I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks. At least one module is tested for memory leaks in a nightly task. When found, leaks are patched. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Please check JYTHON and those ready-for-novice GUI tools in java. All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage. Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but the GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and feel is so hideous that I would say from personal experience with numerous Java applications that there is little that's worse for user productivity than a Java application running on Windows. Well, a web application might top it. Pray tell is there anything that is not ridiculous garbage or is your computer so hopelessly broken that everything fails on it? You've already dissed on Windows, Firefox, the web, Java. Surely Python must suck also because it's slow and interpreted. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 19:00, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a écrit : On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Something is wrong then. Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but your experience with Windows is not normal. I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a re-install? Virus or malware? Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7? I tend to agree with you. However, I should say I'm observing a strange phenomenon. Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2. If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute) timeit.timeit(a = '\u2345'*10; 'x' in a) it runs smoothly. but if I run the same task with Py3.3 my window seems to be idled, and a message like, Ne répond pas (something like Do no respond) appeares in the title bar of the window (my application title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the win7 waiting cursor. The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and the resulting values are correct. How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting values are in exact concordance with the values I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but built with tkinter! jmf Have I understood this correctly? Your users are using a GUI that you've designed and implemented, they type in 10 identical characters and then search linearly for a single character that they know can't possibly be found, and then they are complaining that their systems are too slow, yes? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Le mardi 17 décembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a écrit : On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting for that system to stop Not Responding. And no, it's not a matter of hardware. Something is wrong then. Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but your experience with Windows is not normal. I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a re-install? Virus or malware? Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7? I tend to agree with you. However, I should say I'm observing a strange phenomenon. Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2. If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute) timeit.timeit(a = '\u2345'*10; 'x' in a) it runs smoothly. but if I run the same task with Py3.3 my window seems to be idled, and a message like, Ne répond pas (something like Do no respond) appeares in the title bar of the window (my application title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the win7 waiting cursor. The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and the resulting values are correct. How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting values are in exact concordance with the values I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but built with tkinter! jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Michael Torrie wrote: I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects. I would recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project. That's not the impression I get from the PySide mailing lists. Work seems slow now everyone is a volunteer. For example, Qt 5 is not yet supported (there's no effort towards this according to the mailing list) and bugs seem to take a long time to be fixed. PyQt support is much better, even when I'm using it for a free project. Jeremy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 16/12/2013 05:08, Chris Angelico wrote: On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Michael Torrie torr...@gmail.com wrote: I think Python is a great overall application development language, especially for the GUI. First-class functions for callbacks make it very nice compared to other languages. Python is fast enough for full-blown apps too. Slow parts can be factored out to other languages. Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. That pesky input() function can take *minutes* to return. It's terrible! Factor that out and your job's done. I've done the latter, but still can't fit all the data for my 100+ screens into a one liner, help please :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've done the latter, but still can't fit all the data for my 100+ screens into a one liner, help please :) With 100 screens, you should be able to use lines of text up to 8000 characters long - just make sure your screens are organized horizontally. Shorten all variable names to a single letter, omit all unnecessary spaces, and you should be able to fit the code within that space. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 16/12/2013 11:58, Chris Angelico wrote: On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I've done the latter, but still can't fit all the data for my 100+ screens into a one liner, help please :) With 100 screens, you should be able to use lines of text up to 8000 characters long - just make sure your screens are organized horizontally. Shorten all variable names to a single letter, omit all unnecessary spaces, and you should be able to fit the code within that space. ChrisA Thanks for this extremely useful advice, it's much appreciated :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/15/13, 5:06 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: Yeah, but there's a difference between passing your GUI incantations on to a library function (written in C but now just part of a binary library) and feeding them to a completely different language interpreter. When I write something with PyGTK, I can't, even in theory, give it arbitrary C code to execute. From what I understand here, that *is* true of Tcl, which means that the Python download contains a Python interpreter and a Tcl interpreter. I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do, but it is calculated to provoke remark. Yes, a Tkinter app has both a Python interpreter and an underlying Tcl interpreter. Let's be clear about that. The technical reason for this is that, during Python's early development, Tk was the simplest, most powerful and OSS-friendly GUI toolkit out there (compared to, let's say, Motif). Its reliance on Tcl was a plus because Tcl's C API is exceptionally clean and easy to embed/call from other C libraries (that was Tcl's original main focus, embedding in C). Embedding the Tcl interpreter remains a sound decision today. It makes it trivial to keep Tkinter updated in sync with Tk updates, since the Tcl interpreter does most of the heavy lifting. The recent effort to wrap Tk's new themed widgets is a good one: nearly all of the work was done at the Python level. Compare this approach to Perl's original one, which stripped out Tcl and implemented Tk integration entirely in C. Any updates require heavy lifting in C and, in fact, Perl/Tk has not kept up with Tk's main line of development (it does not run natively on the Mac, for instance). Calling through Tkinter to Tcl also provides some other conveniences. If you're writing a Tkinter app and want to access some platform-specific functionality that requires C calls, that may require a library extension written against Tcl/Tk's C API (i.e. the Mac's NSServices API--that can't be accessed using ctypes because it hooks into the window server). Fortunately, Tk is very easy to extend in C--much simpler than extending wxWidgets or Qt. Finally, Tcl is itself a fully-featured, general programming language that is a peer to Python both generationally and in terms of its capabilities; the main way it lags is in the size of its development community. In other words, you are not handing the ball off to a 90-pound weakling if you need to call into Tcl from Python via Tkinter. ;-) --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Kevin Walzer k...@codebykevin.com wrote: Finally, Tcl is itself a fully-featured, general programming language that is a peer to Python both generationally and in terms of its capabilities; the main way it lags is in the size of its development community. In other words, you are not handing the ball off to a 90-pound weakling if you need to call into Tcl from Python via Tkinter. ;-) Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is definitely inferior to Python. I'd much rather work with Python itself. :) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/16/13, 10:20 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is definitely inferior to Python. Without starting a flame war, can you elaborate? I'm curious about your perspective. (I studied PSL--Python as a Second Language--so develop in it with a slight accent. I'm a native Tcl developer, for better or worse.) --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Kevin Walzer k...@codebykevin.com wrote:
On 12/16/13, 10:20 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is
definitely inferior to Python.
Without starting a flame war, can you elaborate? I'm curious about your
perspective.
(I studied PSL--Python as a Second Language--so develop in it with a slight
accent. I'm a native Tcl developer, for better or worse.)
Here's the Tcl procedure that I tweaked. This is from gitk; I find the
word diff not all that useful, but a character diff at times is very
useful. I haven't found a way to configure the word diff regex through
gitk's options, so I tweaked it in the source code.
proc getblobdiffs {ids} {
global blobdifffd diffids env
global diffinhdr treediffs
global diffcontext
global ignorespace
global worddiff
global limitdiffs vfilelimit curview
global diffencoding targetline diffnparents
global git_version currdiffsubmod
set textconv {}
if {[package vcompare $git_version 1.6.1] = 0} {
set textconv --textconv
}
set submodule {}
if {[package vcompare $git_version 1.6.6] = 0} {
set submodule --submodule
}
set cmd [diffcmd $ids -p $textconv $submodule -C --cc
--no-commit-id -U$diffcontext]
if {$ignorespace} {
append cmd -w
}
if {$worddiff ne [mc Line diff]} {
append cmd --word-diff=porcelain --word-diff-regex=.
}
if {$limitdiffs $vfilelimit($curview) ne {}} {
set cmd [concat $cmd -- $vfilelimit($curview)]
}
if {[catch {set bdf [open $cmd r]} err]} {
error_popup [mc Error getting diffs: %s $err]
return
}
set targetline {}
set diffnparents 0
set diffinhdr 0
set diffencoding [get_path_encoding {}]
fconfigure $bdf -blocking 0 -encoding binary -eofchar {}
set blobdifffd($ids) $bdf
set currdiffsubmod
filerun $bdf [list getblobdiffline $bdf $diffids]
}
First off, everything's done with commands, rather than assignment
(set diffinhdr 0), which is very shell-style and not very
programming-style. Can live with that, though even shells can use
equals signs for simplicity. Similarly, the shell style of adorning
variable usage feels messy. There are string literals, some of which
contain interpolated variables; there are dollar-sign adorned
variables; and then there are other words. What are the other words?
Are they implicit strings (as they would be in, say, bash)? I've never
really liked that style. Anyway. Can get past that.
Secondly, what does this do?
if {$worddiff ne [mc Line diff]}
I *think* it means 'if $worddiff is not equal to Line diff (this
code is executed for the options Markup words and Color words, but
what's the mc do? How am I supposed to figure out what it does? Where
do I begin to look?
This is where, IMO, Python tends to be a lot clearer. It's easy to see
what's an object and what's a method on it, and every bare word is
either a local name or a standard built-in name. I'm sure Tcl's a
great language, but I'd rather not have to drop out of Python into it
if I can help it. :)
ChrisA
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:12:16 PM UTC+8, Jai wrote: GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed. There are lots of book here so I am confuse which book i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer Please check JYTHON and those ready-for-novice GUI tools in java. Python is a higher level language that can support manny lower level languages. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Kevin Walzer k...@codebykevin.com wrote: On 12/16/13, 10:20 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is definitely inferior to Python. Without starting a flame war, can you elaborate? I'm curious about your perspective. I wrote a few Tcl apps once many, many years ago. After attempting to write something more than a few hundred lines long, I gave up and swore off Tcl completely. I switched to Scheme, and later to Python. The things I found infuriating about Tcl: * The everything is a string view of the world is severly limiting if you're not just processing strings. * The quoting syntax and semantics appears to have been invented by somebody at the CIA as a way to torture programmers into doing... something... I don't know what. * Tcl doesn't seem to have any sort of coherent design or philosophy behind it but rather consists of a bunch of hacks piled on top of a simple and limited shell-like string processing language. It sort of feels like PHP in that regard. When I finally gave up fighting with Tcl's quoting semantics half way through a medium/small application and switched to Scheme/Tk, I had my app written from scratch in a fraction of the time it took to get about half way done in Tcl, and with about 1/3 the lines of code. Python probably would have cut both hours and lines by half again compared to Scheme. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'd like some JUNK at FOOD ... and then I want to gmail.combe ALONE -- -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: * The everything is a string view of the world is severly limiting if you're not just processing strings. I wasn't sure if that was the case, from what I was seeing. Are there any aggregate types at all? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: * The everything is a string view of the world is severly limiting if you're not just processing strings. I wasn't sure if that was the case, from what I was seeing. Are there any aggregate types at all? There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries). -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! hubub, hubub, HUBUB, at hubub, hubub, hubub, HUBUB, gmail.comhubub, hubub, hubub. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Let the flame war begin!
Am 16.12.13 17:10, schrieb Chris Angelico:
Here's the Tcl procedure that I tweaked. This is from gitk; I find the
word diff not all that useful, but a character diff at times is very
useful. I haven't found a way to configure the word diff regex through
gitk's options, so I tweaked it in the source code.
proc getblobdiffs {ids} {
global blobdifffd diffids env
global diffinhdr treediffs
global diffcontext
global ignorespace
global worddiff
global limitdiffs vfilelimit curview
global diffencoding targetline diffnparents
global git_version currdiffsubmod
.
}
I'm a long time Tcl developer who has just picked up Python recently; so
my view is tinted from the other side.
First off, gitk is a huge unstructured mess. You are not obliged to
write programs like this in Tcl, at least not today. All these global
statements give already a hint, that this is a procedural thing. Think
of Python, where classes are stripped. Tcl has object oriented
frameworks for years. If you use Snit, e.g., all those globals are not
needed because they are really instance variables.
First off, everything's done with commands, rather than assignment
(set diffinhdr 0), which is very shell-style and not very
programming-style.
This is just syntax and purely a matter of taste.
Can live with that, though even shells can use
equals signs for simplicity. Similarly, the shell style of adorning
variable usage feels messy. There are string literals, some of which
contain interpolated variables; there are dollar-sign adorned
variables; and then there are other words. What are the other words?
Are they implicit strings (as they would be in, say, bash)?
Yes, they are, and it doesn't feel strange if you are used to it. Tcl's
syntax rules are very compact. Tclers see this as an advantage.
Secondly, what does this do?
if {$worddiff ne [mc Line diff]}
I *think* it means 'if $worddiff is not equal to Line diff (this
code is executed for the options Markup words and Color words, but
what's the mc do?
It does command substitution (indeed the brackets [] do) and is one of
the key concepts of Tcl. mc is probably the command from msgcat which
translates i18n strings. Complaining about these basic things is like
complaining about indentation in Python.
This is where, IMO, Python tends to be a lot clearer. It's easy to see
what's an object and what's a method on it, and every bare word is
either a local name or a standard built-in name. I'm sure Tcl's a
great language, but I'd rather not have to drop out of Python into it
if I can help it. :)
Python has some advantages over Tcl. To name a few, references, list
comprehensions, real classes, clean module support, extensive extensions
such as matplotlib/scipy. But Tcl also has some strengths.
First off, the syntax is quite flexible, and so things like list
comprehensions[1] or classes[2] can be implemented in Tcl itself.
Second, it's great at interactive use because at a command prompt, you
don't want to type all those () call operators, quotes and obey
indentation just to get a simple loop running. Third, its implementation
features a few unique things:
* Stubs. Compile a C extension against 8.1 and load it into 8.6. This
actually works. 8.1 was nearly 15 years ago!
* Safe interpreters. Sometimes requested here for Python, you can create
a slave interpreter in Tcl that is restricted and cannot do disk I/O,
has limited execution time etc. You can precisely control which commands
are passed on to the slave.
* Interpreters in threads. There is no GIL, Tcl interpreters are thread
safe and more than one can coexist in a process and run concurrently.
This is accessible from script level through the Threads package.
* Very easy deployment: Starkits/Tclkits bundle an interpreter within a
single executable. Similar to what pyinstaller does. But in my
experience, it's much easier to pack all dependencies into a starkit
than it is with pyinstaller. You can get a rather full-fledged
interpreter with GUI support into a few megabytes, and I've never seen
it fail.
Happy flaming,
Christian
[1] http://wiki.tcl.tk/12574
[2] http://wiki.tcl.tk/3963
--
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Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Am 16.12.13 18:04, schrieb Grant Edwards: On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid wrote: * The everything is a string view of the world is severly limiting if you're not just processing strings. I wasn't sure if that was the case, from what I was seeing. Are there any aggregate types at all? There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries). Aggregate types are indeed a weak point, but still there are lists (since ever) and dicts (since 8.5, ~6 years) with value semantics. Arrays are distinct from dicts and provide no value semantics, i.e. you cannot pass them around. Today these issues are overcome by using dicts or some OO framework. Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Christian Gollwitzer aurio...@gmx.de wrote: Let the flame war begin! I'll try to avoid flamage :) First off, gitk is a huge unstructured mess. You are not obliged to write programs like this in Tcl, at least not today. All these global statements give already a hint, that this is a procedural thing. Think of Python, where classes are stripped. Tcl has object oriented frameworks for years. If you use Snit, e.g., all those globals are not needed because they are really instance variables. Ah, okay. Don't take gitk as representative. Got it. Unfortunately there are quite a few languages that I've experienced from, really, only one program that I've tried to modify (Scheme almost falls in that category too - all I've ever used it for is LilyPond scripting, and not much of that), and I'm aware that's not really a fair look at the language. First off, everything's done with commands, rather than assignment (set diffinhdr 0), which is very shell-style and not very programming-style. This is just syntax and purely a matter of taste. Yeah. Like I said, Can live with that . But my rule of thumb with bash scripts is: If it exceeds a page or two in length, it's probably time it got rewritten in an application language. When a program is the size of gitk (10KLOC), the benefits relating to interactive use (as you mention below) become less significant, and benefits relating to discoverability of the more obscure features become more significant. It does command substitution (indeed the brackets [] do) and is one of the key concepts of Tcl. mc is probably the command from msgcat which translates i18n strings. Complaining about these basic things is like complaining about indentation in Python. Okay. Now, how am I to figure out where this command comes from? It's not a host command (typing mc at the bash prompt comes up failure), and it's not defined in the script itself (at least, I can't find proc mc anywhere); is it a Tcl built-in? Where do I start looking? (Yes, I'm aware this is a problem in any language. I'm not now raising a point in the Python vs Tcl debate, I'm just asking out of curiosity.) Tcl also has some strengths. First off, the syntax is quite flexible, and so things like list comprehensions[1] or classes[2] can be implemented in Tcl itself. Second, it's great at interactive use because at a command prompt, you don't want to type all those () call operators, quotes and obey indentation just to get a simple loop running. Third, its implementation features a few unique things: Yeah, that's nice for the interactive interpreter... but I already have bash for that, and Python's not far off. I've used interactive Pike and REXX interpreters, which are both more demanding than Python (in terms of syntax requirements and such), so I'm perfectly happy with Python; but if you're used to something even lighter, then sure, use something that lets you type almost nothing. No problem. I just think that - as mentioned above - a ten thousand line program should be aiming more at maintainability than ease of manual typing. * Safe interpreters. Sometimes requested here for Python, you can create a slave interpreter in Tcl that is restricted and cannot do disk I/O, has limited execution time etc. You can precisely control which commands are passed on to the slave. Cool. Not enough for me to choose the language unless I really REALLY needed that feature, but there was one time in my programming career when that was true, so we'll count that a win. * Interpreters in threads. There is no GIL, Tcl interpreters are thread safe and more than one can coexist in a process and run concurrently. This is accessible from script level through the Threads package. Nice, though Python's threading and/or multiprocessing can do 90% of what people want. Side point: What about Tk? Can you (a) run separate GUI threads for separate windows? (b) manipulate widgets created by another thread? * Very easy deployment: Starkits/Tclkits bundle an interpreter within a single executable. Similar to what pyinstaller does. But in my experience, it's much easier to pack all dependencies into a starkit than it is with pyinstaller. You can get a rather full-fledged interpreter with GUI support into a few megabytes, and I've never seen it fail. Never really needed this, but for the people who do, I'm sure that's a fairly big deal. So there definitely are some advantages that Tcl has over Python. Put against them is a superior object model, a large corpus of first-class object types (dict, set, list, etc[1]), and a syntax that more clearly differentiates names and strings without making variable references look like a lot more than they are. Huge room in the world for both languages to exist and thrive. ChrisA [1] What is an etc() in Python? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Are there any aggregate types at all? There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries). Well... sort of. They can only hold strings, not other arrays. They're not first-class entities: you can't pass them around or keep them in local variables; they're always global. (And there are no modules, so global is *truly* global.) In short, they're a very poor substitute for having real data structures. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/16/2013 5:40 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: Nice, though Python's threading and/or multiprocessing can do 90% of what people want. Side point: What about Tk? Can you (a) run separate GUI threads for separate windows? (b) manipulate widgets created by another thread? When running tk via tkinter, limiting tkinter/tk calls to the main thread is the safest thing to do. I do not know whether the problems people have had doing otherwise are due to Python or inherent in tk itself. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 16/12/2013 22:06, Christian Gollwitzer wrote: Let the flame war begin! Surely proper flame wars should have inflammatory titles like this https://archive.org/details/SeanKellyRecoveryfromAddiction ? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 2013-12-16, Gregory Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Grant Edwards wrote: On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: Are there any aggregate types at all? There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries). Well... sort of. They can only hold strings, not other arrays. They're not first-class entities: you can't pass them around or keep them in local variables; they're always global. (And there are no modules, so global is *truly* global.) It's worse that I remembered -- I must have repressed most of my Tcl memories. In short, they're a very poor substitute for having real data structures. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:01:53 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:53:45 +, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2013-12-14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: You seem to be equating was compiled from with includes an implemenation of. Do you say that CPython ships with C? Well, when you take my comments out of their context, that does seem to be a totally stupid thing to say. But in context, it's only *mostly* stupid, and mostly stupid means a little bit sensible *wink* The context was a complaint, or at least expression of surprise, that Python use Tcl for a GUI, this being contrasted with (paraphrasing the legions of people who have expressed surprise about this in the past) some hypothetical GUI written in Python. But in practice, it won't be written in Python, it will be likely written in C or some other low-level language with some interface to Python. The main difference between this hypothetical Python GUI and Tcl is that Tcl is a Turing-complete interpreter which lives in it's own process. And how many times would you take advantage of that turning complete functionality in reality? My answer... ZERO! How many Tcl calls have you, or anybody, made that did have direct business with creating or managing a TK gui? HOW MANY??? We don't need that functionality, we ALREADY have a language... it's called Python and the syntax is MUCH better. All we want is a damn GUI. And trying to justify TCL as legit because Tcl just calls C routines is ludicrous. If the intention is to extend C routines, then by gawd EXTEND them. Don't go writing a whole new turning complete monstrosity and forcing all calls to travel through it's front door, sit in waiting room until it's eyes bleed, before finally exiting out the back door on it's way to Cees-ville. Why should i give a damn about Tcl? All it does is get in my way. OTOH, if Tcl where more like a Vegas Casino for high rollers, i might be inclined to overlook the superfluous pit-stop. A free luxury room , free all you can eat buffet, free call girls, etc... but it has no endearing qualities. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Rick Johnson rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote: We don't need that functionality, we ALREADY have a language... it's called Python and the syntax is MUCH better. All we want is a damn GUI. And trying to justify TCL as legit because Tcl just calls C routines is ludicrous. Python already ships with another language interpreter - actually, several wrapped up into one. It's called the pickle module. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with calling on another language; I was just curious about it, is all. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 17/12/2013 05:37, Rick Johnson wrote: We don't need that functionality, we ALREADY have a language... it's called Python and the syntax is MUCH better. All we want is a damn GUI. Then write it, dear Rick, dear Rick, dear Rick, then write it, dear Rick, dear Rick, write it. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 2013-12-14, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: But more seriously, 100% seriously in fact, I think that you'll find that *every* GUI framework for Python ships with an entirely different language under the hood, usually C. Name one GUI framework that ships with a C implementation. Even if the top level of the framework is written in Python, the underlying graphics routines used for drawing controls and windows will surely not be. You seem to be equating was compiled from with includes an implemenation of. Do you say that CPython ships with C? -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects. I would recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project. Except the issue that Pyside always seems to lag a bit behind Qt releases, while PyQt usually supports more recent releases of Qt. Besides that, according to what I've been reading on the PyQt mailing list, support is impressive. The developer often fixes issues over night, if there actually are any. And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:53:45 +, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2013-12-14, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: But more seriously, 100% seriously in fact, I think that you'll find that *every* GUI framework for Python ships with an entirely different language under the hood, usually C. Name one GUI framework that ships with a C implementation. Er, all of them? I daresay that Tcl itself eventually calls graphics routines written in C. There's not that many languages that commonly get used for low-level graphics routines, but C is one of them. If you mean, ships with a C *compiler*, or even a C interpreter, then no, probably not. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of those GUI frameworks are powerful enough to count as mini-languages in their own right. Even if the top level of the framework is written in Python, the underlying graphics routines used for drawing controls and windows will surely not be. You seem to be equating was compiled from with includes an implemenation of. Do you say that CPython ships with C? Well, when you take my comments out of their context, that does seem to be a totally stupid thing to say. But in context, it's only *mostly* stupid, and mostly stupid means a little bit sensible *wink* The context was a complaint, or at least expression of surprise, that Python use Tcl for a GUI, this being contrasted with (paraphrasing the legions of people who have expressed surprise about this in the past) some hypothetical GUI written in Python. But in practice, it won't be written in Python, it will be likely written in C or some other low-level language with some interface to Python. The main difference between this hypothetical Python GUI and Tcl is that Tcl is a Turing-complete interpreter which lives in it's own process. [Aside: I wonder how many other GUI toolkits are Turing complete?] As I stated earlier, this is just the Interpreter design pattern, with the minor complication that the domain specific language happens to be an existing language, Tcl, with an interpreter that usually runs in a separate process, instead of some mini-language running inside Python. So I don't see anything surprising about Tkinter (or for that matter, Ruby and it's bindings to Tcl/Tk). Maybe it's because I'm used to Unix/ Linux systems, where it is common for tools that execute in one interpreter to call other tools which execute in a different interpreter. E.g. a shell script which calls a Ruby script which calls some command which happens to be written in Python. Python, after all, was originally invented to be a glue language, and I don't really see anything weird about Python delegating work to Tcl any more than I see anything strange about IronPython delegating work to the .Net runtime. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/15/2013 08:33 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects. I would recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project. Except the issue that Pyside always seems to lag a bit behind Qt releases, while PyQt usually supports more recent releases of Qt. Which is a bit odd, seeing as Pyside is an official Qt project. It was started by Nokia when they owned Qt, and now is hosted at the official Qt web site. Besides that, according to what I've been reading on the PyQt mailing list, support is impressive. The developer often fixes issues over night, if there actually are any. And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive. That's good to know. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive. The cost of a commercial PyQt license for a single developer is £350 (GBP). You may pay in either US Dollars, Euros or GBP. (£420 incl. VAT for UK and select EU entities) one [license] per developer For some people, it might be a lot. Why waste money on something, that has an almost-identical free-for-everyone version? (which also is easier to install, BTW) PyQt does not include Qt itself. You must also obtain an appropriately licensed copy (either the commercial version from Digia or the LGPL version from the Qt Project). So, you have four options: a) use PySide and Qt@Project, pay $0 and be sane (albeit saner than person B); b) use PyQt4 and Qt@Digia, pay £350/£420 + £??? and be sane; c) use PySide and Qt@Digia, pay £??? and look like a hypocrite (albeit less than person D); d) use PyQt4 and Qt@Project, pay £350/£420 and look like a hypocrite. DISCLAIMER: Some things are based on assumptions, many of which may be incorrect. PS. For those living in the past without proper Unicode support: £ = GBP. -- Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick http://kwpolska.tk PGP: 5EAAEA16 stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 15/12/2013 17:52, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote: On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive. The cost of a commercial PyQt license for a single developer is £350 (GBP). You may pay in either US Dollars, Euros or GBP. (£420 incl. VAT for UK and select EU entities) Four weeks income, no thanks :( one [license] per developer For some people, it might be a lot. Why waste money on something, that has an almost-identical free-for-everyone version? (which also is easier to install, BTW) PyQt does not include Qt itself. You must also obtain an appropriately licensed copy (either the commercial version from Digia or the LGPL version from the Qt Project). So, you have four options: a) use PySide and Qt@Project, pay $0 and be sane (albeit saner than person B); b) use PyQt4 and Qt@Digia, pay £350/£420 + £??? and be sane; c) use PySide and Qt@Digia, pay £??? and look like a hypocrite (albeit less than person D); d) use PyQt4 and Qt@Project, pay £350/£420 and look like a hypocrite. DISCLAIMER: Some things are based on assumptions, many of which may be incorrect. PS. For those living in the past without proper Unicode support: £ = GBP. Thanks for making my day, I've roared with laughter at the PS. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: As I stated earlier, this is just the Interpreter design pattern, with the minor complication that the domain specific language happens to be an existing language, Tcl, with an interpreter that usually runs in a separate process, instead of some mini-language running inside Python. Yeah, but there's a difference between passing your GUI incantations on to a library function (written in C but now just part of a binary library) and feeding them to a completely different language interpreter. When I write something with PyGTK, I can't, even in theory, give it arbitrary C code to execute. From what I understand here, that *is* true of Tcl, which means that the Python download contains a Python interpreter and a Tcl interpreter. I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do, but it is calculated to provoke remark. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
For wxPython there is a good book. You will feel convinient. But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI development, but it's only an opinion. Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets. Tamer On 14.12.2013 14:12, Jai wrote: GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed. There are lots of book here so I am confuse which book i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 16/12/2013 00:34, Tamer Higazi wrote: But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI development, but it's only an opinion. Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets. Tamer Can you state why you prefer C++ and wxWidgets over Python and wxPython, which wraps wxWidgets? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
Hi Mark! It is an advise, in which language somebody wants to code is of course everybodys free choice. However, I believe according wxWidgets it would be better coding in the native language the system had been developed. The other thing, specially if you would make a customer project, I don't know how to pack the app written in python in an installer. Perhaps I am wrong, and you could give me in exchange an advise ?! I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with it's native compiler. How would it be with wxPython ?! Thanks for your response Tamer On 16.12.2013 03:18, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 16/12/2013 00:34, Tamer Higazi wrote: But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI development, but it's only an opinion. Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets. Tamer Can you state why you prefer C++ and wxWidgets over Python and wxPython, which wraps wxWidgets? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/15/2013 05:34 PM, Tamer Higazi wrote: For wxPython there is a good book. You will feel convinient. But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI development, but it's only an opinion. Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets. Perhaps this is because the wx binding in Python is too C++-like and lacks python concepts and idioms? Or are you saying Python in general is not a good language for GUI development? GUI design is moving firmly into the realm of interpreted or non-compiled languages, with compiled languages often doing the real back end work. For example Firefox implements its entire GUI in Javascript using XML GUI definitions. This all drives a C-based rendering engine. Also Qt 5 emphasizes developing GUIs using QtQuick, which is also Javascript-based with XML and CSS for styling. And all modern web apps are a combination of many languages and domains, most of which are compiled in the traditional sense. I think Python is a great overall application development language, especially for the GUI. First-class functions for callbacks make it very nice compared to other languages. Python is fast enough for full-blown apps too. Slow parts can be factored out to other languages. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/15/2013 09:09 PM, Tamer Higazi wrote: However, I believe according wxWidgets it would be better coding in the native language the system had been developed. The other thing, specially if you would make a customer project, I don't know how to pack the app written in python in an installer. Perhaps I am wrong, and you could give me in exchange an advise ?! Nonsense. That's what an installer on windows is for, or what a package on Linux is for. There are also ways to bundle up everything you need to run a Python app in a single exe file. Ever take a look at the e-book manager, Calibre? It's 90% Python. You can install it on Windows like any other app. If you're curious as to how they do things, you can always contact their developers. I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with it's native compiler. How would it be with wxPython ?! It would probably perform just fine. Anything that can't get enough speed to run in Python can easily be delegated to native libraries or subroutines. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/15/2013 09:51 PM, Michael Torrie wrote: And all modern web apps are a combination of many languages and domains, most of which are compiled in the traditional sense. Meant to say, *not* compiled. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Tamer Higazi tamerito...@arcor.de wrote: I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with it's native compiler. How would it be with wxPython ?! It's going to spend more than 99% of its time waiting for the user. Most applications aren't performance-bound. Over the past few years, I can think of *one* case when my GUI program was actually saturating a CPU core and I had to dig into a performance fault; the simplistic design had meant that it would iterate over an entire list of strings to find which ones it needed to draw, and once that list got huge, the redraw operation started taking time. But there was no visible problem except when the app was redrawing itself many times a second in response to user action AND the set of strings got, as I said, huge. Every other part of that program, and all of every other GUI interactive program I've written in recent years, has been coded for simplicity and not for performance. (This particular example is actually quite pertinent, as it's the designated replacement for a very similar program written in C++. The C++ one has a tendency to crash hard if user code does the wrong thing, as there is absolutely no protection anywhere, while the new code will, at very worst, spew a traceback and then go back to processing events.) Of course, performance is a relative thing. If you're running on a PC, there's no difference at all between taking 1ms and taking 2ms - no human will notice. But if you're running on a server, that's the difference between 1000tps and 500tps. And on a phone, that CPU usage might have an impact on battery life, and running on a tiny PCB the same coding difference might be the difference between 400ms and 800ms. But in the day-to-day realm of desktop apps, maintainable code will always be better than marginally faster code. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Michael Torrie torr...@gmail.com wrote:
I think Python is a great overall application development language,
especially for the GUI. First-class functions for callbacks make it
very nice compared to other languages. Python is fast enough for
full-blown apps too. Slow parts can be factored out to other languages.
Python is sooo slow when it waits for the human. That pesky
input() function can take *minutes* to return. It's terrible! Factor
that out and your job's done.
And yeah. First-class functions *rock*. ECMAScript is almost there -
not supremely, perhaps, but oh so all-but! [1] A function can retain
all sorts of state by being a closure, and yet somehow it doesn't
retain the state of which 'this' (in Python terms, 'self') it should
reference. Why? I don't know. But it's part of the spec now, so
callbacks have to take a function and a context.
var func=document.getElementById;
var foo=func(foo); /* Won't work */
function funcgen(obj)
{
return function(desc) {return obj.getElementById(desc);}
}
var func=funcgen(document);
var foo=func(foo); /* Will work! */
In Python, the simple and obvious thing works, because there's less
magic. The incantation obj.member followed by the incantation
callable(args) has exactly the same meaning as obj.method(args).
ChrisA
[1] http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/patience/webop/pat16d.html
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Jai jaiprakashsingh...@gmail.com wrote: GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed. There are lots of book here so I am confuse which book i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer There are many ways to build a GUI with Python. Some of the more popular toolkits are Tk (tkinter), wxWidgets (wxpython), and GTK. Explore those and see which one you like; I personally quite like GTK, and the others have their fans too. There are GUI builders for each of the above (I think; definitely wx and GTK do), or you can build everything directly in code (my preferred style). Play around with it and see what you like! As a side point, though: You're using Google Groups to post, which means your posts look messy, because GG doesn't follow internet standards. Short of getting into Google and fixing Groups, the best solution is to avoid using it; you can either use some other newsreader (several here swear by Mozilla Thunderbird), or subscribe to the email list, which carries all the same content: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Either way will spare you and us the hassles of malformed posts. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
thank you sir -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed. There are lots of book here so I am confuse which book i should refer so that i don't waste time . It depends on what you want to do with the GUI, since there are many different GUI frameworks for Python. E.g. If you absolutely need to run your applications on MacOS X, then PyGTK is probably not the best choice. WingIDE, a popular IDE, has been recently ported to PyQt, apparently for this reason. Besides, PyGTK itself seems to be shelved, PyGObject now (since GTK 3) seems to be the canonical way to implement GTK GUIs in Python. Tkinter is a bit special to use since it's not just a library, but uses some kind of RPC. It seems that look and feel have been greatly improved lately. wxWidgets (wxPython) recently (since 2.9/3.0) got support for Cocoa, it's native on the Mac. It's quite slim, but seems to be a moving target API-wise, since the developers are not shy from breaking compatibility. Is it compatible with Python 3 yet? PyQt looks native everywhere, but it might be a bit overweight, depending on what you want to do and where your applications need to run. And then there's the licensing issue, since PyQt, unlike Qt itself, is not available under LGPL afaik. For closed-source commercial applications, there seems to be a way to use a commercially licensed PyQt (much less expensive than Qt itself) together with LGPL-Qt however. Pyside would be a LGPL alternative to PyQt, but it doesn't seem to be as up-to-date as PyQt. And then, there are even more frameworks, such as Pygame, PyGUI, etc And each of these frameworks has dedicated mailinglists. Personally I found it difficult to use any of the wrapped C++ frameworks without being able to understand the documentation made for C++. :-( Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/14/2013 05:25 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Jai jaiprakashsingh...@gmail.com wrote: GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed. There are lots of book here so I am confuse which book i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer There are many ways to build a GUI with Python. Some of the more popular toolkits are Tk (tkinter), wxWidgets (wxpython), and GTK. Explore those and see which one you like; I personally quite like GTK, and the others have their fans too. There are GUI builders for each of the above (I think; definitely wx and GTK do), or you can build everything directly in code (my preferred style). Play around with it and see what you like! For learning, tkinter is probably the easiest because it comes with Python and you don't need to install anything else. The best way to get started with it is to search for tutorials and examples on web. Searching for python tkinter on Amazon shows a few books but I don't know anything about them. wxPython currently runs only with Python2, not Python3. There is a drag-and-drop form designer available for it but it is a commercial product that costs money. It also comes with a useable (once you get used to it) form builder tool that works by graphically manipulating a text tree of widgets. The other big, widely-used GUI toolkit is PyQt. It runs on both Python2 and Python3. There is another version of it called PySide which is API compatible with PyQt but has different licensing terms. PyQt comes with a very good drag-and-drop form designer. I have played a little with both wxPython an PyQt and found learning to use them from the web difficult because of their size and complexity. But both of them have pretty good books about them available: Rapid GUI Programming with Python and Qt (Summerfield) http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Python-Prentice-Software-Development/dp/0132354187 WxPython in Action (Dunn and Rapin) http://www.amazon.com/Wxpython-Action-Noel-Rappin/dp/1932394621/ As a side point, though: You're using Google Groups to post, which means your posts look messy, because GG doesn't follow internet standards. Short of getting into Google and fixing Groups, the best solution is to avoid using it; you can either use some other newsreader (several here swear by Mozilla Thunderbird), or subscribe to the email list, which carries all the same content: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Either way will spare you and us the hassles of malformed posts. Chris and some other people here dislike Google Groups and try to imply that everyone here feels the same way. Not true. I and many other people here use Google Groups and have been doing so for years so if Google Groups works for you, please feel free to continue using it. If you want to reduce the noise level from people like Chris you might want to take a look at: https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 14/12/2013 17:05, Wolfgang Keller wrote: wxWidgets (wxPython) recently (since 2.9/3.0) got support for Cocoa, it's native on the Mac. It's quite slim, but seems to be a moving target API-wise, since the developers are not shy from breaking compatibility. Is it compatible with Python 3 yet? This is one of the goals of the so called Phoenix project http://wiki.wxpython.org/ProjectPhoenix -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 14/12/2013 17:42, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: On 12/14/2013 05:25 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: wxPython currently runs only with Python2, not Python3. There is a drag-and-drop form designer available for it but it is a commercial product that costs money. It also comes with a useable (once you get used to it) form builder tool that works by graphically manipulating a text tree of widgets. Development versions which support Python 3 are available here http://wxpython.org/Phoenix/snapshot-builds/ Unfortunately they've not been updated since 3rd December. I've asked why and been told that Robin Dunn is simply too busy. There's Open Source for you :) As a side point, though: You're using Google Groups to post, which means your posts look messy, because GG doesn't follow internet standards. Short of getting into Google and fixing Groups, the best solution is to avoid using it; you can either use some other newsreader (several here swear by Mozilla Thunderbird), or subscribe to the email list, which carries all the same content: https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list Either way will spare you and us the hassles of malformed posts. Chris and some other people here dislike Google Groups and try to imply that everyone here feels the same way. Not true. I and many other people here use Google Groups and have been doing so for years so if Google Groups works for you, please feel free to continue using it. If you want to reduce the noise level from people like Chris you might want to take a look at: https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython Of course I dislike Google Groups, users keep sending double spaced crap which I don't want to see. There is no noise level from people like Chris, which obviously includes me. There is a constant stream of polite requests not to send double spaced crap which we do not wish to see. There are at least two solutions to this, follow the instructions in the link repeated above for the umpteenth time or use a different tool. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Tkinter is a bit special to use since it's not just a library, but uses some kind of RPC. It seems that look and feel have been greatly improved lately. I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language. With Tkinter in Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood? IE embeds the Tcl language interpreter into Python's interpreter? If so I've always found it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: PyQt looks native everywhere, but it might be a bit overweight, depending on what you want to do and where your applications need to run. And then there's the licensing issue, since PyQt, unlike Qt itself, is not available under LGPL afaik. For closed-source commercial applications, there seems to be a way to use a commercially licensed PyQt (much less expensive than Qt itself) together with LGPL-Qt however. Pyside would be a LGPL alternative to PyQt, but it doesn't seem to be as up-to-date as PyQt. I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects. I would recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/14/2013 10:42 AM, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: The other big, widely-used GUI toolkit is PyQt. It runs on both Python2 and Python3. There is another version of it called PySide which is API compatible with PyQt but has different licensing terms. PyQt comes with a very good drag-and-drop form designer. Just to be clear, PyQt does not provide the drag and drop form designer. That comes from QtDesigner or QtCreator, which is part of Qt itself and you can use it to design GUIs for use in any language that Qt has bindings for, not just Python. PyQt probably does come with a code generator to convert the xml GUI definitions into Python, but these days such use is discouraged in favor of using Qt itself to load the XML file at runtime and build the objects on the fly for you. It's way more flexible and there's no code generation needed. (Apple has done this for years with Cocoa with their nib files in the bundle.) I have played a little with both wxPython an PyQt and found learning to use them from the web difficult because of their size and complexity. But both of them have pretty good books about them available: Yes there are concepts you'll have to wrap your brain around such as how to do proper widget layout. Things aren't placed in a fixed way usually. They are allowed to grow and shrink with the window size. And you will have to grasp how events work. Of all the APIs I've used, I think GTK in Python is the cleanest (PyGTK or PyObject). But if I was targeting Windows or Mac I'd stick with PySides/PyQt. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
In article 52acb936.3020...@gmail.com, Michael Torrie torr...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Tkinter is a bit special to use since it's not just a library, but uses some kind of RPC. It seems that look and feel have been greatly improved lately. I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language. With Tkinter in Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood? IE embeds the Tcl language interpreter into Python's interpreter? Yes, it does. If so I've always found it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood. It is a bit strange but, back in the day, there wasn't a better multi-platform GUI option and, even today, Tk (and Tcl) remain attractive because it is supported on the many important platforms and does not have the license issues that some other GUI toolkits have had. And because of inertia. Also, Python is not alone in this: Perl and Ruby also have Tk bindings that work the same way, AFAIK. -- Ned Deily, n...@acm.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On 12/14/2013 3:01 PM, Michael Torrie wrote: On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Tkinter is a bit special to use since it's not just a library, but uses some kind of RPC. It seems that look and feel have been greatly improved lately. I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language. Tcl is the language. Its standard interpreter is written in C, as with Python. (I do not know if there are other Tcl implementations.) Tk is the gui framework written, I believe, in a mixture of Tcl and C. Tkinter (Tk interface) is entirely a Python to Tcl/Tk and back interface. With Tkinter in Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood? Yes. _tkinter.c defines Python-callable functions that call Tcl/Tk C api functions. tkinter.py defines Python classes and methods. The methods call _tkinter functions. Most of the classes correspond to Tk widgets such as Button and Text. IE embeds the Tcl language interpreter into Python's interpreter? Both interpreters run in one process. If so I've always found it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood. Tcl/Tk is only shipped with the Windows Python installer. On other systems, it is a separate install if not already present. There once (over 10 years ago) was a project to re-write Tk entirely in C. What I read it that people decided that Tk made too much use of Tcl functions to make that worthwhile. There have been starts on projects to write a gui framework based on Python and wrapped C libraries. PyGui is one, last updated July 2011. http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python_gui/ -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how should i proceed.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:01:58 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote: On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Tkinter is a bit special to use since it's not just a library, but uses some kind of RPC. It seems that look and feel have been greatly improved lately. I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language. With Tkinter in Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood? IE embeds the Tcl language interpreter into Python's interpreter? If so I've always found it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood. That's just the Interpreter design pattern, except the Domain Specific Language is already written for you :-) (I'm half-serious here.) But more seriously, 100% seriously in fact, I think that you'll find that *every* GUI framework for Python ships with an entirely different language under the hood, usually C. Even if the top level of the framework is written in Python, the underlying graphics routines used for drawing controls and windows will surely not be. Given that the actual maintenance of the GUI itself is unlikely to be a bottleneck in any real application, I don't think it is a significant problem efficiency-wise that Python tkinter relies on an intermediate framework written in Tcl. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
