Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
Ned Batchelder n...@nedbatchelder.com writes: On 1/28/14 2:19 AM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Different, but a little bit related. The work which is done actually on the possibility (not implemented but alreay realized) to colorize (style) the different graphemes of a glyph is very interesting. Python with its absurd Flexible String Representation just become a no go for the kind of task. (Should not be too complicate to understand.) jmf JMF, seriously, stop it. You've convinced no one because you have no convincing arguments. It's obnoxious to continue to make this claim. Stop it. Please. If you want to try to convince someone, convince me. Write to me offline: n...@nedbatchelder.com -- Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com I seriously think jmf has a mental disorder. So these reactions won't do anything useful. Just ignore. -- Piet van Oostrum p...@vanoostrum.org WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/ PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4] -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 28/01/2014 07:19, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Different, but a little bit related. The work which is done actually on the possibility (not implemented but alreay realized) to colorize (style) the different graphemes of a glyph is very interesting. Python with its absurd Flexible String Representation just become a no go for the kind of task. (Should not be too complicate to understand.) jmf This guy has surely exceeded his three strikes and you're out limit? Please, please somebody do something about it, he's driving me insane with this continuous drivel. No thread appears to be safe from him jumping in with this nonsense. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 23:19:03 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote: Different, but a little bit related. The work which is done actually on the possibility (not implemented but alreay realized) to colorize (style) the different graphemes of a glyph is very interesting. Python with its absurd Flexible String Representation just become a no go for the kind of task. (Should not be too complicate to understand.) No, not complicated at all. Water is wet, therefore the FSR is rubbish. Athens is the capital of Greece, therefor the FSR is rubbish. 1+1 = 2, therefore the FSR is rubbish. The South American Potoo is a member of the Nyctibiidae family, therefore the FSR is rubbish. We get the point, thank you. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 1/28/14 2:19 AM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Different, but a little bit related. The work which is done actually on the possibility (not implemented but alreay realized) to colorize (style) the different graphemes of a glyph is very interesting. Python with its absurd Flexible String Representation just become a no go for the kind of task. (Should not be too complicate to understand.) jmf JMF, seriously, stop it. You've convinced no one because you have no convincing arguments. It's obnoxious to continue to make this claim. Stop it. Please. If you want to try to convince someone, convince me. Write to me offline: n...@nedbatchelder.com -- Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 01/28/2014 12:38 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote: JMF, seriously, stop it. You've convinced no one because you have no convincing arguments. It's obnoxious to continue to make this claim. Stop it. Please. If you want to try to convince someone, convince me. Write to me offline: n...@nedbatchelder.com JMF, maybe if you'd actually try to write a program in Python that does what you are talking about with colorizing graphemes, (whatever that means) then you can talk. Sounds to me like you don't even use Python at all, for unicode or anything else. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
Skip Montanaro s...@pobox.com writes: I think this might have value, especially if to could bounce back and forth between both schemes. Is anyone aware of tools like this for Python? Bonus points for pointers to an Emacs implementation. There has been a recent thread on some emacs group about this. Dunno how far it has gone wrt Python support, but the following mode appeared in MELPA archives in the last couple of days: https://github.com/ankurdave/color-identifiers-mode hth, ciao, lele. -- nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivrò di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincerò ad aver paura di chi mi copia. l...@metapensiero.it | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 27/01/2014 01:46, Skip Montanaro wrote: What it is doing is color coding user-supplied identifiers, with different color for each one. I found that confusing to read. I think it would take some time to get used to, and I don't think it would be the only way I'd like to view my program. I think an interactive pylint (or pyflakes or frosty) type capability would be useful, highlighting a subset of the messages it produces, like variables which were assigned but never used, or using undefined variables. It might be best supported by actually running the checker in the background, then using its messages to direct where to highlight suspect bits of code. Skip Pydev uses pylint interactively, must have saved me hours by flagging up (potential) problems up as I type. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 01/26/2014 06:54 PM, Roy Smith wrote: Chris Angelico wrote: That said, though, I grew up without syntax highlighting of any sort, and didn't think it particularly important; but now that I have editors with all those sorts of features, I do find them handy. Same here, except I'd replace find them handy with totally addicted to. +1000 -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
Skip Montanaro wrote: My son sent me a link to an essay about highlighting program data instead of keywords: https://medium.com/p/3a6db2743a1e/ I think this might have value, especially if to could bounce back and forth between both schemes. Is anyone aware of tools like this for Python? AFAIK kdevelop support this. http://kdevelop.org/sites/kdevelop.org/files/photos/kdev_python_1.png -- By ZeD -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
Different, but a little bit related. The work which is done actually on the possibility (not implemented but alreay realized) to colorize (style) the different graphemes of a glyph is very interesting. Python with its absurd Flexible String Representation just become a no go for the kind of task. (Should not be too complicate to understand.) jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 1/26/2014 7:31 PM, Skip Montanaro wrote: My son sent me a link to an essay about highlighting program data instead of keywords: https://medium.com/p/3a6db2743a1e/ What it is doing is color coding user-supplied identifiers, with different color for each one. I found that confusing to read. The only use I can see for this is to track the usage of a particular name, but that would be better done by just highlighting one name at a time. I think this might have value, especially if to could bounce back and forth between both schemes. Is anyone aware of tools like this for Python? Bonus points for pointers to an Emacs implementation. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: The only use I can see for this is to track the usage of a particular name, but that would be better done by just highlighting one name at a time. In SciTE, I can put the cursor on a word and hit Ctrl-F3 to find other instances of that word. If that's not enough, following it up with Ctrl-Home, F3 will find the first instance of it, and if the program follows the Define-Before-Use principle, that'll be the definition. That's usually enough. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: The only use I can see for this is to track the usage of a particular name, but that would be better done by just highlighting one name at a time. In SciTE, I can put the cursor on a word and hit Ctrl-F3 to find other instances of that word. If that's not enough, following it up with Ctrl-Home, F3 will find the first instance of it, and if the program follows the Define-Before-Use principle, that'll be the definition. That's usually enough. ChrisA That said, though, I grew up without syntax highlighting of any sort, and didn't think it particularly important; but now that I have editors with all those sorts of features, I do find them handy. So it's possible that a system like this would be of value if once the programmer gets used to it. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 18:31:49 -0600, Skip Montanaro wrote: My son sent me a link to an essay about highlighting program data instead of keywords: https://medium.com/p/3a6db2743a1e/ I think this might have value, especially if to could bounce back and forth between both schemes. Hmmm, I'm not convinced, but then I wasn't convinced by syntax highlighting either until I had used it for a while. (I still think it's a nice-to-have rather than a must-have.) Seems to me that beyond a dozen or so variables, the colours won't be distinctive enough to get much benefit. Especially if similar names get similar colours, e.g. the name handle_process and the typo handle_prosess will be barely distinguishable. In a well-designed program, most variables will appear in a fairly limited number of places, possibly in only a single function or method, so in even a fairly small project you might have a few dozen distinct variables, each of which might appear only three or five times. Is anyone aware of tools like this for Python? Bonus points for pointers to an Emacs implementation. Sorry, can't help you. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Hmmm, I'm not convinced, but then I wasn't convinced by syntax highlighting either until I had used it for a while. (I still think it's a nice-to-have rather than a must-have.) It's definitely just a nice-to-have. I've built miniature text editors into various programs (including two MUD clients, for the purpose of editing files on the server), and haven't bothered with the level of sophistication required for smart-indent, much less syntax highlighting. (I'll occasionally put in an auto-indent - hit enter and it indents to the same level as the previous line - but not even always that, and definitely not hey, that line has more ( than ) so I'll indent an extra level, which is a *hugely* helpful feature when I'm doing main coding (it catches errors, as well as saving time on indentation), but one I can do without if it means I can knock together an editor in a tenth the time.) Seems to me that beyond a dozen or so variables, the colours won't be distinctive enough to get much benefit. Especially if similar names get similar colours, e.g. the name handle_process and the typo handle_prosess will be barely distinguishable. In a well-designed program, most variables will appear in a fairly limited number of places, possibly in only a single function or method, so in even a fairly small project you might have a few dozen distinct variables, each of which might appear only three or five times. Hmm. Would similar names get similar colours? I would guess that a naive approach would just go sequentially through the file, but if it's smart enough to recognize similarity, it'd be nice if it could then be smart enough to make them contrast. The more similar the words, the less similar the colours, and vice versa. Or at very least, sort all the words alphabetically, and then distribute them in some binary flip-flop method that will tend to put the ones with the same start further apart. (That would catch typos anywhere other than the beginning of the name.) Oh. Yes, they will get similar colours. Just re-read the page: Variable names with similar prefixes will be assigned similar colors. We collect all the custom names and order them alphabetically, then distributing them evenly along a spectrum. This way we make sure we use as distinct colors as possible. IMO this is a flawed design decision. The purpose of the color is to add information, not to replicate what's already there. (And it's using the simplistic method I described, of simply sorting alphabetically to determine similarity. There are other ways of distinguishing, but they're a lot more complicated.) If it's smart enough to recognize the difference between local and global names, that would be useful. Might not be so useful in JS, but definitely in Python. It would take a bit of smartness, but most editors these days have to be able to fully parse the language anyway. Hmm. Actually, this might be a plausible idea just on its own: never mind about distinguishing specific names, just create a highlight class for each of local name (including function parameters), global name, read-only, and global name, assigned to in this function, and possibly non-local (read-only and assigned) as well. If you suddenly see that the name 'len' has changed from being global name, read-only to local name, you'll know instantly that you just shadowed a built-in (probably unintentionally and in a way likely to cause bugs). Do any editors currently offer this? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
What it is doing is color coding user-supplied identifiers, with different color for each one. I found that confusing to read. I think it would take some time to get used to, and I don't think it would be the only way I'd like to view my program. I think an interactive pylint (or pyflakes or frosty) type capability would be useful, highlighting a subset of the messages it produces, like variables which were assigned but never used, or using undefined variables. It might be best supported by actually running the checker in the background, then using its messages to direct where to highlight suspect bits of code. Skip -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info writes: Hmmm, I'm not convinced, but then I wasn't convinced by syntax highlighting either until I had used it for a while. (I still think it's a nice-to-have rather than a must-have.) I wouldn't rate syntax highlighting a must-have. But I do think it's significantly more difficult to work with an editor that doesn't highlight the syntax of the code. Seems to me that beyond a dozen or so variables, the colours won't be distinctive enough to get much benefit. A more severe problem with the suggestion is that human cognition is only capable of attending to a limited number of differences at once, and so this kind of attention-drawing is a limited resource. Drawing attention to some aspects is at the expense of reduced attention to other aspects. The significant benefit of syntax highlighting is that it reduces the difficulty to read the text and see what will be obvious to the compiler: the structure of each statement and block. So spending the limited resource of differential attention to colours is valuable to help with this difficult aspect of reading code. So I strongly disagree with the statement “But as it stands, we highlight the obvious (like the word function) and leave most of the content in black.” Once you have attention on it, the word “function” is obvious. But the whole motivation of highlighting syntax using different colours is to get that differential attention in the first place. The difference between tokens *isn't* so obvious when glancing at the code without those colours. That said, the motivation in highlighting different names differently is a good one, too. I would like to have the benefit described in the article: having different names easily distinguished in the code. But I don't think that should come at the expense of significantly reducing the ease of quickly distinguishing the syntactical structure. -- \ “We must find our way to a time when faith, without evidence, | `\disgraces anyone who would claim it.” —Sam Harris, _The End of | _o__) Faith_, 2004 | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
In article mailman.6011.1390783954.18130.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: That said, though, I grew up without syntax highlighting of any sort, and didn't think it particularly important; but now that I have editors with all those sorts of features, I do find them handy. Same here, except I'd replace find them handy with totally addicted to. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 1/26/2014 8:29 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 18:31:49 -0600, Skip Montanaro wrote: My son sent me a link to an essay about highlighting program data instead of keywords: https://medium.com/p/3a6db2743a1e/ I think this might have value, especially if to could bounce back and forth between both schemes. Hmmm, I'm not convinced, but then I wasn't convinced by syntax highlighting either until I had used it for a while. (I still think it's a nice-to-have rather than a must-have.) When my fingers get a bit fumbly, I find it more useful. When I do not hit ' or solidly, or type a mismatch 'something, having the string literal color continue is a handy clue. So is 'it' not getting the keyword color that if would. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Highlighting program variables instead of keywords?
On 1/26/2014 8:46 PM, Skip Montanaro wrote: I think an interactive pylint (or pyflakes or frosty) type capability would be useful, highlighting a subset of the messages it produces, like variables which were assigned but never used, or using undefined variables. It might be best supported by actually running the checker in the background, then using its messages to direct where to highlight suspect bits of code. One of my long-term goals for Idle is an extension that would run user-installed code analyzers over the contents of an edit window, with the output sent to an OutputWindow. Using the contents of the latter to mark things in the editor window is an interesting idea. That is already done for SyntaxErrors and traceback file:line references. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
