Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Alex Martelli wrote: The Eternal Squire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... 2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-) It worked for Microsoft ... regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Alex Martelli wrote: The Eternal Squire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... 2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-) FWIW, when I read it, I took experience as a semi-qualitative measure, more than just time since graduation. Hence someone out of school only three months could have more experience, than someone who has worked for ten years, if the recent grad has been heavily involved in pre-graduation projects (e.g. open source), or if the ten-year veteran has done nothing constructive with his time, besides raking in a paycheck. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
And me, I'm a 15 to 20 year veteran, I started *very* young I think Alex has it right. Too many of us elders are like he says.. I try not to be, to the point where I accepted a promotion from my captain (wife) from chief engineer of the family to executive officer (as in, I am now my daughter's full time dad). But is there anything that people really need in Python open source that people would accept from an old hand like me? Or am I still persona non grata for making a butthead of myself during Pycon 2005 (for which I apologize and beg forgiveness) for trying to evangelize the concept of making None callable? At the time, I had broncialitis/pneumonia and temperatures averaging 102 and peaking at 104 during all the time I was there. But I wasn't going to let anything short of death itself prevent me from delivering my paper. Of course, I please deleriousness (or is it Deloriousness) during the rest of the time. I was yucky, I admit it. The Eternal Squire -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Rocco Moretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Martelli wrote: The Eternal Squire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... 2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-) FWIW, when I read it, I took experience as a semi-qualitative measure, more than just time since graduation. Hence someone out of school only three months could have more experience, than someone who has worked for ten years, if the recent grad has been heavily involved in pre-graduation projects (e.g. open source), or if the ten-year veteran has done nothing constructive with his time, besides raking in a paycheck. Sure -- measure experience in whatever units you like, e.g., number of function points designed, coded, tested and debugged in one's lifetime; my (meant-to-be-funny but not unfounded...;-) quip still stands -- the concept that the cat herder (==supervisor of developers) should ideally be (among other things) a very experienced developer is (IMHO) quite sound, but it's also quite inappropriate to gauge that in terms of a ratio with the most junior team-member's experience (which might be very low, in whatever units of measure one might like to use). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Well, I admit the remark was off the cuff because I was thinking of conventional waterfall development cycles in the aerospace industry in that context someone who wasn't there during an entire development cycle is not even a junior member, but is rather a recruit under training to begin actually contributing to the next project. I would call someone who survived all phases of a single design-code-test-peerreview cycle (about 2 years) to be junior, and someone with less experience that that as a recruit. On that basis, the lead should have 3 design cycles or 6 years experience. The lead does not need to be the master designer on the project, but it helps a lot when that happens. The Eternal Squire -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 09:45, CppNewB wrote: First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. The website is beautiful. I just looked. Its the logo that is a little off-putting. It makes a pretty bad first impression. Compare it to java's. Even the php logo looks better. For a real cool logo, check biopython.org. James -- James Stroud UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics Box 951570 Los Angeles, CA 90095 http://www.jamesstroud.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
I think I'm going to back you up a little bit here. You've gone about this in a bit of a half-assed way (and pissed off a fair few people in the process) but you are right that the site needs a redesign. It uses tables for layout with inline styles and font tags and doesn't really use CSS. It has invalid html, and doesn't even attempt xhtml. From an accessiblity point of view it has a poor choice of font and a poor choice of colours (blue links on a blue background). Design issues such as what logos to use and such aren't really my forte, but from a web developers point of view it's a badly made website. Ed On 01/11/05, CppNewB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is all about. First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in me, I would take a stab at it. Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's capability as a web development stack)? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
CppNewB wrote:
But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a
readable default font is in order.
I can't believe you think the font there is unreadable. It's left to
the browser default, which is usually set to a simple serif font, which
in turn is presumably the default because the majority of all books,
magazines, and newspapers in existence use it, and have found it
perfectly readable up to now. With the ability of the user to customise
their font size, surely this is by definition more readable than any
arbitrarily chosen typeface and size which cannot possibly suit
everybody? You can append body { font-family: sans-serif; font-size:
10pt; } to the CSS and make it look 'professional' but it doesn't make
it more readable. Really this just comes down to preconceptions over
how a site 'should' look based on other sites, not on any tangible
difference.
--
Ben Sizer
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Ben Sizer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can't believe you think the font there is unreadable. It's left to the browser default, which is usually set to a simple serif font, which in turn is presumably the default because the majority of all books, magazines, and newspapers in existence use it, and have found it perfectly readable up to now. Actually it does set some fonts (avantgarde and lucidasomethignorother) as first choices. I guess you, like me, and probably most people in here, doesn't have those installed. -- Björn Lindström [EMAIL PROTECTED] Student of computational linguistics, Uppsala University, Sweden -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Things, which can be done better are: - seperate content and layout (no table design, no font tags, ...) - blue links on blue background are nearly as ugly as visited-purple links on blue background - he frontpage is overloaded. Ok this is worth a discussion: poweruser vs. marketing -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Björn Lindström wrote: Actually it does set some fonts (avantgarde and lucidasomethignorother) as first choices. I guess you, like me, and probably most people in here, doesn't have those installed. As far as I can tell, those fonts are only set for 'pre' and 'h' tags. -- Ben Sizer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
CppNewB wrote: But the logos look like they were done in Paint that's probably why the designers won a prestigious design award for their: ...innovative letter designs and typographic experiments, which are testimony to their unconventional thinking about, and use of, existing software applications. By actually modifying the software they are able to escape the standard of existing digital letters. In doing so, their letter types show a kind of obstreperous mentality and sense of humour. a version of Paint that works on a Mac, an obstreperous mentality, and a sense of humour. what else do you need? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On 02/11/05, Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a version of Paint that works on a Mac, an obstreperous mentality, and a sense of humour. what else do you need? Biscuits. You need biscuits. Treating-this-thread-as-seriously-as-it-deserves-ly y'rs, Simon B. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
I like the Python website just fine. It has exactly what it needs to document and advocate Python, no more and no less. Plus, it loads quite fast. Two suggestions for the OP: 1) Go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon and read or buy the book Web Sites That Suck. It is a fully detailed and annotated text showing what not to do on websites, and why. 2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a person should also behave as a sensei to the team members, that is, having the ability to motivate by example and by knowledge. The Eternal Squire -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On 2005-11-01, CppNewB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is all about. First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. It sounds like you work for the prototypical PHB. The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in me, I would take a stab at it. May God save us from professional looking web sites. Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's capability as a web development stack)? I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to use. Just like the lanuage. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow!! That's a GOOD at IDEA!! Eating a whole FIELD visi.comof COUGH MEDICINE should make you feel MUCH BETTER!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
CppNewB wrote: I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is all about. First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in me, I would take a stab at it. Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's capability as a web development stack)? A redesign is complete, and should be deployed by the end of the year. In the meantime please assure your boss that the language *is* far better designed than the (current) web site, and that he shouldn't judge a bottle by its label :-) [Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview]. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Good news Steve. It's definitely time for a sneak preview. Let's see it! Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CppNewB wrote: I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is all about. First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in me, I would take a stab at it. Maybe we could round up a couple of designers to donate some time? Maybe we could build a basic CMS on top of Django or TurboGears (displaying Python's capability as a web development stack)? A redesign is complete, and should be deployed by the end of the year. In the meantime please assure your boss that the language *is* far better designed than the (current) web site, and that he shouldn't judge a bottle by its label :-) [Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview]. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On Nov 01, CppNewB wrote: First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. The site is readable, but is amateurish. That's flaim bait if I ever saw it! I find the site quite lovely: very readable, no ads, well organized, nice colors, simple, easy to maintain (uses ht2html with ReST). What are you comparing it to? Have a look at homepages for ruby, java, tcl, and perl. I consider python.org superior to all of them. It is my personal benchmark for webpage usability. -- _ _ ___ |V|icah |- lliott http://micah.elliott.name [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
CppNewB wrote: I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is all about. First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. so your boss is a troll, and you cannot use a search engine. I hope you're company is more competent than it appears ;-) (hint: a redesign is in progress, sponsored by the PSF. google for python.org redesign 2005 for more info. bte, the current design was created by people who've won more design awards than most web firms; the design is old (1998), not unusable...) /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On 11/1/05, CppNewB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site.Thesite is readable, but is amateurish.If I had an ounce of design skills inme, I would take a stab at it. Does boss have a problem with java.sun.com as well? The main visual difference I see is Sun's pages have some gradients and rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I could admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh, and my browser is still not finished loading php.net in the time I wrote this. Rob -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Grant Edwards wrote: May God save us from professional looking web sites. I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to use. I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice looking but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot of ways to make it worse. Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
message = message.replace(you're, your) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] enlightened us with: I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice looking but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot of ways to make it worse. I agree to the fullest! I'd rather have a website that I can read and can click through in seconds. Sybren -- The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? Frank Zappa -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if they are going to redesign it? -- Svenn -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if they are going to redesign it? No one is suggesting that it should be. However, Googling before coming to a newsgroup to complain about anything is usually a good idea. -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die. -- Richard Harter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On Tuesday 01 November 2005 01:32 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if they are going to redesign it? No, but it might be wise before posting a potentially inflammatory and insulting comment about in on the mailing list. ;-) Seriously, though, what would you change about it? It's not flashy, but works extremely well. You can say the same for Python itself -- I think that may be its best quality. So how better to show that than by having a site with the same character? -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if they are going to redesign it? the first thing he did was to go to the page, the next thing he did was to post a can we round up a couple of designers? message with an in- flammatory subject line. that algorithm is rather simplistic, and can be greatly improved by inserting a let's check google clause at the right place. (and yes, making your boss look stupid is never a good idea) /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Grant Edwards wrote: May God save us from professional looking web sites. I like the Python web site. It's simple, easy to read, and easy to use. I strongly agree with you, the web is full of web sites that are nice looking but have microscopic fixed fonts (against the very spirit of Html), are full of useless flash, have lots of html structures nested inside other ones (PHP sites are often like this, with dirty sourcecode), are difficult/slow to render on differnt/old browsers (best viewed with its webmaster browser only), are two times bigger than necessary, etc. Python web site can be improved, but there are lot of ways to make it worse. Bye, bearophile Agreed completely. Because the site works WITH HTML rather than AGAINST it, it renders very quickly - small data size and easy on the browser. It is a very functional reference site and prettying it up would probably greatly detract from its utility. I hope the new site design continues to be as easy on the eye, and as quick to use. Last time I wrote to a web site saying how clean and easy their web site was to use, they added a bucket-load of graphics shortly afterwards. Made it take twice as long to load, and added nothing to usability. A new logo might be in order though. Steve -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the first thing you do when you go to a web page is to google if they are going to redesign it? I think the implication was The first thing to do before *suggesting that a redesign is nessasary* is to Google to see if such a redesign is taking place. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Robert Boyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I could admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh, and [...] I love the logos! python.org looks simple to me, not amateurish. But that just goes to show that I think differently from your PHB, and in my book the details of the visual design should be aimed at attracting more people to the language as well as being easy to use, so I'm happy there's a redesign. John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to post a can we round up a couple of designers? message with an in- flammatory subject line. that algorithm is rather simplistic, and can be If it's any consolation, I did check Google Groups before posting. There's a couple vague posts, most from a couple of years ago, but nothing indivcative that a redesign was right around the corner My query: http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=redesign+websitenum=10scoring=rhl=enas_epq=as_oq=as_eq=as_ugroup=comp.lang.pythonas_usubject=as_uauthors=lr=as_drrb=qas_qdr=as_mind=1as_minm=1as_miny=1981as_maxd=1as_maxm=11as_maxy=2005safe=off Inflammatory? Usually the thing you are most defensive about is the subject matter you should be evaluating closer. My thoughts weren't to add a flash demo or develop some 500K logo or fixing the font size. But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a readable default font is in order. Look at the site not as a resource for Python (for which it is a great) but as an entity forming your first impressions of the project. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
John J. Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Boyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [...] rounded corners. The Python site is clean and to-the-point. I guess I could admin that the various Python logos look dated, but that's about it. Oh, and [...] I love the logos! Exactly my sentiment. I know Python's capabilities and I am more than satisfied. I was introduced by a friend, not the website. But to the masses of asses out there that are quickly evaluating their development choices and jumping from Visual Studio to Delphi's website to Ruby on Rail's website, the aesthetic welcome will be worn out once they get to python.org. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Steve Holden wrote: [Thinks: wonder if it's time to release a sneak preview]. It is! It is! /David -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
CppNewBand maybe a readable default font is in order. That font looks fine to me, maybe there's a problem in the default font of your browser, you can probably fix your problem... Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CppNewBand maybe a readable default font is in order. That font looks fine to me, maybe there's a problem in the default font of your browser, you can probably fix your problem... Explicit is better than implicit I know how to change my default, you know how to change your default font, but not everyone else does. If there's a more readable, default solution, it should be utilized. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:45:11 +, CppNewB wrote: I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what the language is all about. First comment; I hope the language is designed better than the site. First comment: I hope your boss can tell the difference between good design of a computer language and good design of a website. What was his second comment? But I never judge a book by its cover or I make technical decisions based on irrelevant factors? The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in me, I would take a stab at it. Ah, well since you and your lack of design skills are such an expert on good design, perhaps you would like to enlighten us poor peons as to what in particular is amateurish about the site. You might like to tell us in particular, which site? http://www.python.com/ perhaps? http://www.python.net/ http://www.python.org/ http://www.pythonware.com/ http://www.pygame.org/ Heaven forbid that your boss might have got confused and gone here: http://www.pythonline.com/ And then you might like to point us at a language site or two that your boss considers professional. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
CppNewB [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My thoughts weren't to add a flash demo or develop some 500K logo or fixing the font size. But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a readable default font is in order. So what's wrong with the fonts they use - where they didn't let your browser pick them, anyway. In the latter case, the fault is yours, not theirs. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
Steven D'Aprano wrote: http://www.python.com/ perhaps? Yep, let's make this the new official python site ;) -- Benjamin Niemann Email: pink at odahoda dot de WWW: http://www.odahoda.de/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python's website does a great disservice to the language
On 2005-11-01, Benjamin Niemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: http://www.python.com/ perhaps? Yep, let's make this the new official python site ;) Well, I have to admit that I think the scheme they use to get you load the large flash chunk is pretty clever. Most sites just have a large blank rectangle where the flash stuff is supposed to be. These guys have figured out that they should put something _under_ the flash rectangle that elicits a click out of people who have flash disabled by default. Um, not that I clicked, or anything... -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Send your questions at to ASK ZIPPY, Box 40474, visi.comSan Francisco, CA 94140, USA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
