Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 14:07:37 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 3/31/2018 11:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:
> 
>> Do you really think people in Somalia can afford theses things like in
>> the US?
> 
> No, many cannot afford $600 Caddilac-style phones to take 10 megapixel
> pictures and watch UTube videos.  Instead they buy $100 VWBug-style
> phones that let them get competitive prices for their crops and other
> goods instead of accepting low-ball bids from whoever wanders by their
> village.
> 
> Africans are ahead of at least the US in using phone minutes as a benign
> practical digital currency.  This, not destructive and useless bitcoins,
> are the real revolution.

What Terry said.

Personally, I dislike smartphones, but I have to say that they way they 
are used in villages across India, Africa and other developing places has 
been far more of a benign revolution than what smartphones are doing to 
the West.


None of this has anything to do with Python though. Python is not 
primarily a device for development on mobile devices, it is not dropping 
support for laptops, desktops and servers, and Etienne's questions are 
based on utterly false premises.


-- 
Steve

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 10:58:51 -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is
> willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does
> that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops as
> well?

That seems to be a strange question to ask, when servers and desktops are 
the primary focus of Python 3.


> Furthermore, does it bother you to develop code primarly oriented
> towards mobile devices in Python 3 while most of the world still cannot
> afford theses expensive products?

It doesn't bother me one bit, because I don't do it. Nor is Python mainly 
oriented towards mobile devices. In fact, getting Python working on 
mobile devices is still a bit of a challenge.



-- 
Steve

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Rick Johnson]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> Etienne Robillard wrote:
> 
> > Do you understand that a modern mobile device typically
> > require a Internet subscription and an additional
> > subscription for the smart phone?
> 
> Huh?  What is "an internet subscription"?  Why would you
> need two of them if all you have is a smartphone?

Most american cell providers these days offer an unlimited
"0talk and text" plan and then add an additional fee for smart
phones (aka: "Data Plan").
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Terry Reedy]

On 3/31/2018 11:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:

Do you really think people in Somalia can afford theses things like in 
the US?


No, many cannot afford $600 Caddilac-style phones to take 10 megapixel 
pictures and watch UTube videos.  Instead they buy $100 VWBug-style 
phones that let them get competitive prices for their crops and other 
goods instead of accepting low-ball bids from whoever wanders by their 
village.


Africans are ahead of at least the US in using phone minutes as a benign 
practical digital currency.  This, not destructive and useless bitcoins, 
are the real revolution.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Grant Edwards]

On 2018-03-31, Etienne Robillard  wrote:

> Are you trolling? Do you understand that a modern mobile device 
> typically require a Internet subscription and an additional subscription 
> for the smart phone?

Huh?  What is "an internet subscription"?

Why would you need two of them if all you have is a smartphone?

> Do you really think people in Somalia can afford theses things like in 
> the US?

I think you'll find that smartphones are far more widespread in both
rich and poor countries than are traditional computers and laptops.

-- 
Grant




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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Michael Torrie]

On Mar 31, 2018 09:58, "Etienne Robillard"  wrote:



Le 2018-03-31 à 11:40, Michael Torrie a écrit :

> On 03/31/2018 08:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:
>
>> I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is
>> willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does
>>   that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops
>> as well?
>>
> I've tried several times but I can't make sense of that paragraph.
>
Please give me a break. That was just a simple question. Besides, I really
don't understand why the Python development community is dropping support
for Python 2 unless for stopping to support standard computers altogether...

Why would dropping support for python 2 indicate an abandonment of
conventional desktop computers and operating systems?  Python3 is not a
mobile language. Why do you think it is?



> Furthermore, does it bother you to develop code primarly oriented
>> towards mobile devices in Python 3 while most of the world still
>> cannot afford theses expensive products?
>>
> Or this one.  What are you talking about?
>

Are you trolling? Do you understand that a modern mobile device typically
require a Internet subscription and an additional subscription for the
smart phone?


I'm not trolling. I genuinely don't understand where you're coming from.
What does python3 have to do with mobile development? I know of very little
mobile development happening with any version of python.


Do you really think people in Somalia can afford theses things like in the
US?


I can assure you that smart phones have made waves even in Somalia. As far
as it goes, I'm quite sure a smart phone is way cheaper than a desktop or
laptop.

But again I don't understand why you're talking about mobile as if python
is somehow abandoning desktop. You're coming from a false premise with that
one.
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Anders Wegge Keller]

På Sat, 31 Mar 2018 11:58:39 -0400
Etienne Robillard  skrev:

> Are you trolling? Do you understand that a modern mobile device 
> typically require a Internet subscription and an additional subscription 
> for the smart phone?

 I think the question is why you equate python3 with the need for internet
connected tablets. That's quite the non sequitur. 

Consider this my +1 the the request of you to clarify what you mean.

-- 
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[bartc]

On 31/03/2018 16:58, Etienne Robillard wrote:



Le 2018-03-31 à 11:40, Michael Torrie a écrit :

On 03/31/2018 08:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:

I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is
willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does
  that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops
as well?

I've tried several times but I can't make sense of that paragraph.
Please give me a break. That was just a simple question. Besides, I 
really don't understand why the Python development community is dropping 
support for Python 2 unless for stopping to support standard computers 
altogether...



Furthermore, does it bother you to develop code primarly oriented
towards mobile devices in Python 3 while most of the world still
cannot afford theses expensive products?

Or this one.  What are you talking about?


Are you trolling? Do you understand that a modern mobile device 
typically require a Internet subscription and an additional subscription 
for the smart phone?


AIUI, a smartphone or tablet will still work as a small computer without 
an internet or phone connection (ie. without any of WiFi/GSM/3G/4G).


But a temporary WiFi link (eg. a free one at McDonald's) can be useful 
to download extra free apps then they can be used off-line.


Of source it might not be very popular without access to social media if 
that's the main purpose of the device.


--
bartc

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Apr 1, 2018 at 2:58 AM, Etienne Robillard  wrote:
>
>
> Le 2018-03-31 à 11:40, Michael Torrie a écrit :
>>
>> On 03/31/2018 08:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:
>>>
>>> I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is
>>> willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does
>>>   that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops
>>> as well?
>>
>> I've tried several times but I can't make sense of that paragraph.
>
> Please give me a break. That was just a simple question. Besides, I really
> don't understand why the Python development community is dropping support
> for Python 2 unless for stopping to support standard computers altogether...

How are they related? What does the termination of support for a
ten-year-old version of Python have to do with forcing everyone to
mobile devices that they don't own?

You might as well ask if after 2020 there will be no further support
for OSX, or no further support for compilers other than gcc, or no
further support for 64-bit computers.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Etienne Robillard]

Le 2018-03-31 à 11:40, Michael Torrie a écrit :

On 03/31/2018 08:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:

I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is
willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does
  that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops
as well?

I've tried several times but I can't make sense of that paragraph.
Please give me a break. That was just a simple question. Besides, I 
really don't understand why the Python development community is dropping 
support for Python 2 unless for stopping to support standard computers 
altogether...



Furthermore, does it bother you to develop code primarly oriented
towards mobile devices in Python 3 while most of the world still
cannot afford theses expensive products?

Or this one.  What are you talking about?


Are you trolling? Do you understand that a modern mobile device 
typically require a Internet subscription and an additional subscription 
for the smart phone?


Do you really think people in Somalia can afford theses things like in 
the US?



Etienne

--
Etienne Robillard
tkad...@yandex.com
https://www.isotopesoftware.ca/

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Michael Torrie]

On 03/31/2018 08:58 AM, Etienne Robillard wrote:
> I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is 
> willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does
>  that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops
> as well?

I've tried several times but I can't make sense of that paragraph.

> Furthermore, does it bother you to develop code primarly oriented 
> towards mobile devices in Python 3 while most of the world still
> cannot afford theses expensive products?

Or this one.  What are you talking about?

Regarding mobile development, I'd love to write mobile apps with
Python3.  At present, though, that's not very practical.  Python isn't
geared at all towards mobile space, and Apple and Google don't have any
interest in supporting much besides Obj C/Swift or a Java-based language
as a first class development language.

Just as an aside, many more people in the world can afford a smart phone
now than a "standard computer" or laptop. Probably an order of
magnitude.  Just saying.  I've seen smart phones all over the developing
world.
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Etienne Robillard]

Hi,

I was just wondering, could the fact that the Python community is 
willing to discontinue using and developing Python 2 softwares, does 
that mean we are stopping to support standard computers and laptops as well?


Furthermore, does it bother you to develop code primarly oriented 
towards mobile devices in Python 3 while most of the world still cannot 
afford theses expensive products?


Etienne

--
Etienne Robillard
tkad...@yandex.com
https://www.isotopesoftware.ca/

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 31 March 2018 10:16:13 Ian Kelly wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Rick Johnson
>
>  wrote:
> > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:59:16 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> Wanna provide some competing information showing that other
> >> languages are more used?
> >
> > Chris, here is how debate works:
> >
> > PersonA asserts X.
> >
> > PersonB demands evidence for X.
> >
> > PersonA either provides evidence for X, or X is rejected as
> > hooey.
>
> PersonB provides evidence fox X.
>
> PersonA asserts that that evidence doesn't count because "it's
> nothin' but hype".
>
> PersonC provides a different source of numbers supporting X.
>
> PersonA asserts that those numbers don't count either because most
> of them are trolls or sock puppets.
>
> PersonD asks if PersonA has any of their own evidence to provide.
>
> PersonA snarkily responds that they don't need to provide evidence
> because they didn't make the assertion, apparently oblivious to the
> fact that they've actually made several assertions of their own over
> the course of this.
>
> Do I have this right? This is how I understand debate works from
> following this thread. I see the same pattern on the Flat-Earth
> threads, so I think I have it right.

Close enough for the girls I go with. 


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Ian Kelly]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Rick Johnson
 wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:59:16 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Wanna provide some competing information showing that other
>> languages are more used?
>
> Chris, here is how debate works:
>
> PersonA asserts X.
>
> PersonB demands evidence for X.
>
> PersonA either provides evidence for X, or X is rejected as
> hooey.

PersonB provides evidence fox X.

PersonA asserts that that evidence doesn't count because "it's
nothin' but hype".

PersonC provides a different source of numbers supporting X.

PersonA asserts that those numbers don't count either because most
of them are trolls or sock puppets.

PersonD asks if PersonA has any of their own evidence to provide.

PersonA snarkily responds that they don't need to provide evidence
because they didn't make the assertion, apparently oblivious to the
fact that they've actually made several assertions of their own over
the course of this.

Do I have this right? This is how I understand debate works from
following this thread. I see the same pattern on the Flat-Earth
threads, so I think I have it right.
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 11:29 PM, Rick Johnson
 wrote:
> Under no circumstance is PersonB required to prove PersonA'a
> assertions. The onerous is on PersonA.

Assertion: Rick doesn't know what "onerous" means.

Under no circumstance is Rick required to prove me right. But he
obliged anyway. Very kind of him.

This has nothing to do with any sort of debate; I just thought it interesting.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Rick Johnson]

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:59:16 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
[...]
> You can pooh-pooh any statistic. 

Yeah, except the ones supported by actual _facts_.

> So far, though, you have provided NO statistics of your
> own, just your own gut feeling. 

Uh huh. And what do you call drawing naive conclusions from
statistical data? I'd call it confirmation bias!

> Wanna provide some competing information showing that other
> languages are more used?

Chris, here is how debate works:

PersonA asserts X.

PersonB demands evidence for X.

PersonA either provides evidence for X, or X is rejected as
hooey.

Under no circumstance is PersonB required to prove PersonA'a
assertions. The onerous is on PersonA.

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 12:39:48 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Paul Rubin :
>> All the scripts that say #!/usr/bin/python at the top will still use
>> python2.
> 
> Which is how it should be till the end of times.

Don't be silly -- they should use Python 1, of course, as nature 
intended. In 20 years time, when we're using Python 5.2 and Python 3 is a 
distant memory, typing "python" at the command prompt should try to 
launch Python1.x.

If you think that's ludicrous, consider that replacing 1.x with 2.x 
doesn't make it any less ludicrous.


> Unfortunately, ArchLinux decided otherwise, which has caused quite a bit
> of grief in the office, where a coworker uses it.
> 
> We thought we could get around the problem by specifying
> 
>#!/usr/bin/env python2
> 
> in all of our scripts, but, regrettably,
> 
>(1) Not all of our python tools are written by us

Nevertheless, they're text files on your server which can easily have a 
tiny sed script run over them as part of the deployment process, or a 
thin wrapper in bash, or your tech staff could add an alias to their bash 
login script (or equivalent).

Or just get the Archlinux guy to add an alias to his logic script.



>(2) MacOS doesn't have a python2 alias for Python2

o_O

Um... is your tech team made up of actual techs or do you ask your 
grandma[1] to administrate your system? How hard is it to add a python2 
alias on MacOS?

That's a rhetorical question -- the answer is, "not hard at all".




[1] For all I know, Marko's grandma could have invented Unix. If that's 
the case, substitute my grandma, who certain did not.



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Steve

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 12:32:31 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Paul Rubin :
> 
>> Marko Rauhamaa  writes:
>>> Yes, RHEL, CentOS and OracleLinux still only support Python2. It may
>>> be another year before Python3 becomes available on them.
>>
>> Debian's default Python is also Python2. I don't say it *only* supports
>> python2 since you can optionally install python3,
> 
> That option is not available for RHEL et al.

Python 3.3 was available for RHEL 6:

https://access.redhat.com/solutions/123273

I would be shocked if RedHat 7 didn't support 3.3, at the very least.



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Steve

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Paul Rubin :
> All the scripts that say #!/usr/bin/python at the top will still use
> python2.

Which is how it should be till the end of times.

Unfortunately, ArchLinux decided otherwise, which has caused quite a bit
of grief in the office, where a coworker uses it.

We thought we could get around the problem by specifying

   #!/usr/bin/env python2

in all of our scripts, but, regrettably,

   (1) Not all of our python tools are written by us

   (2) MacOS doesn't have a python2 alias for Python2

> Typing "python" or "python xyz.py" at the shell will also use python2.
> Python3 will have really taken over when it's the other way around and
> python2 is the optional install.

I disagree. It is enough for the oldest supported Linux and MacOS distro
to support Python3 out of the box.


Marko
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Paul Rubin :

> Marko Rauhamaa  writes:
>> Yes, RHEL, CentOS and OracleLinux still only support Python2. It may
>> be another year before Python3 becomes available on them.
>
> Debian's default Python is also Python2. I don't say it *only*
> supports python2 since you can optionally install python3,

That option is not available for RHEL et al. It is expected that RHEL 8
will include Python3, but nobody knows when RHEL 8 will come out.


Marko
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 20:51:22 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 8:43 PM, Ian Kelly 
> wrote:
>> You really think that 90% of the active users are trolls? And yet the
>> subreddit remains usable despite that allegedly terrible
>> signal-to-noise ratio.
> 
> I'm now laughing at the image of a large community of trolls sitting
> around trolling each other and not realizing that they're all being
> trolled.


/TheDonald ?



*ducks and hides*



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Steve

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 8:43 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
>> You really think that 90% of the active users are trolls? And yet the
>> subreddit remains usable despite that allegedly terrible
>> signal-to-noise ratio.
>
> I'm now laughing at the image of a large community of trolls sitting
> around trolling each other and not realizing that they're all being
> trolled.

Isn't that the definition of "social media"?

ChrisA
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 8:43 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> You really think that 90% of the active users are trolls? And yet the
> subreddit remains usable despite that allegedly terrible
> signal-to-noise ratio.

I'm now laughing at the image of a large community of trolls sitting
around trolling each other and not realizing that they're all being
trolled.
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Rick Johnson
 wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 7:44:40 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> [...]
>> Reddit's /ruby subreddit: 40,571 subscribers.
>>
>> Reddit's /python subreddit: 230,858 subscribers.
>
> Those numbers mean nothing unless you can prove all two-
> hundred-thirty-odd thousand of them to be active, non-
> tolling, non-socking, non-spaming accounts.
>
> Sure, i can imagine Python-list has an impressively large
> number of registered users, however, on a daily basis there
> are only 3-5 on-topic threads. And of those, the majority of
> the posts are send by a hanful of regulars.
>
> IOWs: these "membership numbers" are not true metrics.
>
> I'd wager to say that only a couple hundred accounts out of
> that 230,000 are active and legit python programmers (if
> that).

How about this: at the time of posting, /r/ruby has 69 users here
"now", which Reddit defines as having viewed the subreddit within the
past 15 minutes. /r/python has 509 users here "now".

Scale up to 30DA users and I"m sure the numbers look much larger than
that for each.

You really think that 90% of the active users are trolls? And yet the
subreddit remains usable despite that allegedly terrible
signal-to-noise ratio.

Be realistic, dude.
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 12:10 PM, Rick Johnson
 wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 7:44:40 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> [...]
>> Reddit's /ruby subreddit: 40,571 subscribers.
>>
>> Reddit's /python subreddit: 230,858 subscribers.
>
> Those numbers mean nothing unless you can prove all two-
> hundred-thirty-odd thousand of them to be active, non-
> tolling, non-socking, non-spaming accounts.
>
> Sure, i can imagine Python-list has an impressively large
> number of registered users, however, on a daily basis there
> are only 3-5 on-topic threads. And of those, the majority of
> the posts are send by a hanful of regulars.
>
> IOWs: these "membership numbers" are not true metrics.
>
> I'd wager to say that only a couple hundred accounts out of
> that 230,000 are active and legit python programmers (if
> that).
>
> Be realistic dude.

You can pooh-pooh any statistic. So far, though, you have provided NO
statistics of your own, just your own gut feeling. Wanna provide some
competing information showing that other languages are more used? No?
A what a terrible pity. I guess it's your gut against lots and
lots of people's real information.

ChrisA
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Rick Johnson]

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 7:44:40 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
[...]
> Reddit's /ruby subreddit: 40,571 subscribers.
>
> Reddit's /python subreddit: 230,858 subscribers.

Those numbers mean nothing unless you can prove all two-
hundred-thirty-odd thousand of them to be active, non-
tolling, non-socking, non-spaming accounts.

Sure, i can imagine Python-list has an impressively large
number of registered users, however, on a daily basis there
are only 3-5 on-topic threads. And of those, the majority of
the posts are send by a hanful of regulars.

IOWs: these "membership numbers" are not true metrics.

I'd wager to say that only a couple hundred accounts out of
that 230,000 are active and legit python programmers (if
that).

Be realistic dude.
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 16:18:57 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> My suspicion is that not only are the overall numbers of Python
> programmers on the decline

Python's popularity went up from #5 to #4 between March 2017 and 2018 on 
TIOBE: https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

But of course Rick knows this, and ignores it:

> i pay absolutely zero attention to the TIOBI index


Python's popularity on StackOverflow is also rapidly rising:

https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/06/incredible-growth-python/

and according to the article:

"With a 27% year-over year-growth rate, Python stands alone as a tag that 
is *both large and growing rapidly*" (emphasis in the original).

Measuring popularity by google searches not only puts Python at #2 
(behind only Java) but also the most rapidly increasing language:

https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html

(trend of +5.4% since March 2017 -- the next highest were Typescript and 
R at +0.4% each). Over the last five years, Python's popularity has grown 
the most (12.5%).

RedMonk finds Python at #3 in the first quarter of 2018:

http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2018/03/07/language-rankings-1-18/


This blog post is a few years ago, but it helps show the incredible 
success of Python, not just among students, but also professionals:

https://thenewstack.io/popularity-python-java-world/


Reddit's /ruby subreddit: 40,571 subscribers.

Reddit's /python subreddit: 230,858 subscribers.

Yeah, it's clear that Python is in deep, deep trouble. /sarcasm



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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 00:42:31 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Paul Rubin :
>> Terry Reedy  writes:
>>> 2017 25% 2.x, 75% 3.x
>>> This is a bigger jump than I anticipated.
>>
>> It's interesting and surprising. I still have not encountered anyone
>> using Python 3 in real life. The main Linux distros still use Python 2
>> by default, afaik. I figured Python 3 adoption would increase if and
>> when that changes.
> 
> Yes, RHEL, CentOS and OracleLinux still only support Python2. It may be
> another year before Python3 becomes available on them.

That's incorrect. RHEL and CentOS support Python 3, as python3. It may 
not be installed by default, but installing it is easy:

yum install python3

ought to work, although it won't give you the latest 3.x. You can also 
install from community repos:

https://janikarhunen.fi/how-to-install-python-3-6-1-on-centos-7.html


or install from source.

OracleLinux, I had no idea that was even a thing until now so I won't 
comment on that.



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Steve

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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 11:45:10 -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:

> https://www.jetbrains.com/research/python-developers-survey-2017/ “Which
> version of Python do you use the most?” 
> 2014 80% 2.x, 20% 3.x
> 2016 60% 2.x, 40% 3.x
> 2017 25% 2.x, 75% 3.x
> 
> This is a bigger jump than I anticipated.

Thanks for finding the info Terry. It's about what I expected, a typical 
S-shaped adoption curve:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmoid_function

You start with a few early adopters, which takes a long time to grow, but 
once it hits a certain critical mass of popularity, there is a sudden and 
rapid period of growth until the great majority are using the new 
technology.

According to the standard technology adoption life-cycle, we're now in 
the period where the Late Majority are moving to Python 3. By 2020, I 
expect that will be complete, and we'll enter a long period as the 
Laggards slowly convert over a period of about five years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle

https://ondigitalmarketing.com/learn/odm/foundations/5-customer-segments-
technology-adoption/

So I expect that by 2025, the percentage of people using 2.x will drop 
below 1% and by 2030 the numbers using 2.x will be about the same as 
those using 1.x.


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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Rick Johnson]

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:45:35 AM UTC-5, Terry Reedy wrote:
> https://www.jetbrains.com/research/python-developers-survey-2017/
> “Which version of Python do you use the most?”
> 2014 80% 2.x, 20% 3.x
> 2016 60% 2.x, 40% 3.x
> 2017 25% 2.x, 75% 3.x
> 
> This is a bigger jump than I anticipated.

If these stats are true, i would caution not to draw any
rash conclusions from them. Even *IF* there are more Python3
programmers today than Python2 (and personally, i'm not
buying it!), what *REALLY* matters is the following:

(1) Has the total number of Python programmers remained
steady? (or has it increased or decreased?)
 
(2) What percentage of the Python3 users are merely students
who use Python (probably against their will) as part of
university studies, and thus, will abandon the language when
(and *IF*) they move into the professional world.

(3) Of the aforementioned students, how many are training to
become actual programmers?

My suspicion is that not only are the overall numbers of
Python programmers on the decline (Thanks, Python3000!),
but the folks who are using Python are mostly students who
will abandon the language when they leave university.

In the end, the property which matters _most_ here is
quaLity not quaNtity. IOWs: a hundred professional grade
softwares in the wild are more important than a billion
hello world programs in the classroom. Which is another
reason why i pay absolutely zero attention to the TIOBI
index (nothin' but hype!).
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Marko Rauhamaa]

Paul Rubin :
> Terry Reedy  writes:
>> 2017 25% 2.x, 75% 3.x
>> This is a bigger jump than I anticipated.
>
> It's interesting and surprising. I still have not encountered anyone
> using Python 3 in real life. The main Linux distros still use Python 2
> by default, afaik. I figured Python 3 adoption would increase if and
> when that changes.

Yes, RHEL, CentOS and OracleLinux still only support Python2. It may be
another year before Python3 becomes available on them.

Also, MacOS comes with Python2.

> I'll have to get on the boat sometime, but so far have mostly avoided
> it.

I use Python3 wherever I can, but most stuff must still stay with
Python2.


Marko
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Re: Python Developer Survey: Python 3 usage overtakes Python 2 usage

[Paul Moore]

On 30 March 2018 at 16:45, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> https://www.jetbrains.com/research/python-developers-survey-2017/
> “Which version of Python do you use the most?”
> 2014 80% 2.x, 20% 3.x
> 2016 60% 2.x, 40% 3.x
> 2017 25% 2.x, 75% 3.x
>
> This is a bigger jump than I anticipated.

Nice!
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