Re: proposed Python logo

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

The simplest and most widely known Monty Python image I can think of is
a dead parrot.
So maybe an upside-down parrot?
Could be nice and colorful too, not to mention memorable.

It is true that many won't make the connection between some kind of
Monty Python image and the Python language, as they wouldn't even
recognize the image. Outside the UK Monty Python isn't quite so popular
as some may think.

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Steve Holden]

Michael Tobis wrote:
> A more Monty sort of Python logo would be fine with me. A flying sheep
> perhaps? An exploding penguin? A giant hedgehog? A dog license with the
> word "dog" crossed out and "cat" written in crayon? A great big book on
> how to put your budgie down?
> 
> This http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~roth/bilder/mpfc/GUMBY3.JPG
> chap?
> 
> I'm not sure that conveys the intended gravitas to the corporate
> community, though.
> 
> mt
> 
How about a big "P" with the serif at the bottom being the foot that 
stamps on things?

regards
  Steve
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Steve Holden]

Michael Tobis wrote:
>>Not that I'm disagreeing, but how to you rate "resonance with the product"?
> 
> 
> Hmm, I'm not a marketing professional, but this is would I would do
> with my focus groups:
> 
> Ask people familar with the product to name what they like about the
> image, and what they like about the product, and look for analogies
> between them. Ask them what they dislike about the image and the
> product, and minimize overlap.
> 
> (The main thing I dislike about Python is that the documentation is too
> sketchy. It's very unclear what the official logo represents. So
> another strike against it; it reminds me of the confusion I often face
> on making use of an unfamiliar module.)

As opposed to, for example, Apache's feater, which immediately says ... 
er, er, ... ?

Anyway, none of this is intended to discourage you, I think it's good 
that people are still interested in improving Python's image (as am I: 
see http://squidoo.com/pythonology).

regards
  Steve
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Steve Holden]

Michael Tobis wrote:
> "Is this the right room for an argument?"
> 
> http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/snake.png
> 
Is that a gun in its pocket, or is it just glad to see me? (with 
apologies to Mae West).

regards
  Steve
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Re: proposed Python logo

[EP]

Michael Yanowitz wrote:

>   How about having something from Monty Python in the logo rather
>than something snakelike. Python was named after Monty Python and not
>the snake. Snakes also don't appear friendly to me.
>

I think the new logo, while professionally done (bravo!) is 
unmemmorable.  And why such fat snakes?  Snakes are not generally 
thought of as friendly (whereas Pythoin the langauge is); they are not 
even warm-blooded, and I've always thought the snake a misfit for the 
language... though the old snake was at least cute.

I think something along the "flying sheep" motif would be memorable - 
after all, many of us remember it from MP.

And something like that much better represents the change in thinking 
most programmers must undergo to embrace the language.  "Help, I'm 
falling --- I can't find any braces!"

To some extent Python is "something completely different".

EP


calling it Python and then having a flying sheep as a logo - the 
apparent contradiction might be a good mental reset for those 
approaching the language.  just my two cents
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Re: proposed Python logo

[jarrells]

Mike,

Excellent artwork!

I don't like reinventing the wheel so I propose we reuse someone else's
work.

I propose something like:

http://www.dvdweb.co.uk/reviewgfx/bompfc1.jpg

which symbolizes Python's ability to quickly implement many coding
ideas or:

http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/python/python15.jpg

which symbolizes Python's ability to squash the competition for quick
coding or:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/CMAG/939-009.jpg

which symbolizes Python's place as the pick of the litter.

They also symbolize the fact that coder's shouldn't take life too
seriously.

Happy coding!

Mike

Michael Tobis wrote:
> "Is this the right room for an argument?"
>
> http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/snake.png
>
> ok, so my execution is pretty crude, but you can at least see my idea.
> I trust you to imagine it professionally executed in cheerful colors.
>
> Advantages of proposed logo over existing logo

>
> Much as it would be an ego-boost for me to have some version of this
> idea used for the language, I'm  almost as happy with repurposing the
> most excellent PyCon logo if that is OK with everyone involved. But imo
> we can't fully promote the power of Python with tadpoles.
> 
> mt

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:13:53 -0700, "Carl J. Van Arsdall"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> >
>> > Six words: copyright violation ... trademark violation.
>> >   
>> 
>> Six? 
>> 
>> Looks more like 4 to me.
>
>   Ah, but maybe it is self-referential...

At last, someone with the imagination I thought would be more common 
among Pythonistas. :)
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Grant Edwards]

On 2006-04-21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>  Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Sincy Python wasn't named after the snake, why the insistence
>>on using a snake in the logo?
> ...
>>I think something Monty Python related would be better.  How
>>about a nice can of spam?
>
> Six words: copyright violation ... trademark violation.

Hence my remarks about how it might upset Hormel.

IOW, I was kidding.

I have really been to the SPAM museum, though.  Since SPAM is
intimately connected to WWII in many peoples hearts and minds,
they had a bunch of WWII planes fly in for the SPAM museum
grand opening.  Way cool.  It's pretty impresive having a B-25
bomber taxi up to withing a couple dozen feet of you while you're
standing there stunned by the noise...

-- 
Grant
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Carl J. Van Arsdall]

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>  Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> Sincy Python wasn't named after the snake, why the insistence
>> on using a snake in the logo?
>> 
> ...
>   
>> I think something Monty Python related would be better.  How
>> about a nice can of spam?
>> 
>
> Six words: copyright violation ... trademark violation.
>   

Six? 

Looks more like 4 to me.



-- 

Carl J. Van Arsdall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Build and Release
MontaVista Software

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 "Michael Tobis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I think the colon as snake-eyes thing is a big win

I liked that bit too. Whatever changes are made, that should be kept.
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Sincy Python wasn't named after the snake, why the insistence
>on using a snake in the logo?
...
>I think something Monty Python related would be better.  How
>about a nice can of spam?

Six words: copyright violation ... trademark violation.
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Grant Edwards]

On 2006-04-21, Michael Tobis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~roth/bilder/mpfc/GUMBY3.JPG
> chap?
>
> I'm not sure that conveys the intended gravitas to the
> corporate community, though.

Monty Python never was very big on "corporate community
gravitas", so that's probably going to be a persistent problem
should one try to find a Monty Pythonesque logo.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grante Yow!  Do I have a lifestyle
  at   yet?
   visi.com
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Michael Tobis]

A more Monty sort of Python logo would be fine with me. A flying sheep
perhaps? An exploding penguin? A giant hedgehog? A dog license with the
word "dog" crossed out and "cat" written in crayon? A great big book on
how to put your budgie down?

This http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~roth/bilder/mpfc/GUMBY3.JPG
chap?

I'm not sure that conveys the intended gravitas to the corporate
community, though.

mt

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Tim Parkin]

BartlebyScrivener wrote:
>>>(and it's an older version of the logo) because
>>>you can get T-Shirts from cafepress.com/pydotorg and any profits go to
>>>the psf.
> 
> 
> I just ordered some stuff from cafe press, are you saying I'm getting
> an old version of the logo?
> 

An alternate 'collectors' rendition of the new logo as used by Guido Van
Rossum in his recent New York Google presentations and also as on
t-shirts, mugs and flags handed out during EuroPython 2005!

Tim Parkin

p.s. was that good enough spin for you ;-)
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Re: proposed Python logo

[BartlebyScrivener]

>> (and it's an older version of the logo) because
>> you can get T-Shirts from cafepress.com/pydotorg and any profits go to
>> the psf.

I just ordered some stuff from cafe press, are you saying I'm getting
an old version of the logo?

rick

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Tim Parkin]

Michael Tobis wrote:
> 
> That said, and conceding that the first impression is positive, I don't
> see how it represents Python. More to the point, the longer I look at
> it the less I like it, and I would NOT wear it on a T-shirt.
> 

over 25 people disagree with you so far and thats without any
advertising whatsoever (and it's an older version of the logo) because
you can get T-Shirts from cafepress.com/pydotorg and any profits go to
the psf.

I'll add the new logo over the weekend.

> 
>>The + formation is positive enough, and it has a yin-yang
>>feel to it which to me conjures up the image of balance, not
>>divisiveness.
> 
> Both the cross and the yin-yang have religious associations, which will
> be positive for some and negative for others but will certainly be
> unrepresentative of what Python is. This would be a great logo for
> Taoist Christians, if such a group exists.
> 
> How is Python about "balance"? It is about abstraction, composition,
> the whole greater than the parts, yes, but there's nothing there that
> really draws on duality. So the whole two-ness of the thing is one of
> the parts that disturbs me.
>

They're freindly snakes at a tadpole fancy dress competition having a
'cuddle'. Where do you think Python eggs come from...

Tim Parkin

p.s. the logo is actually based on mayan representations of snakes which
very often represent only the head and perhaps a short length of tail.
The structure of the snake representations the natural coiling/nesting
of a snake as seen side on.. The following image shows a similar
representation (we have a snake house nearby which makes it easier to
observe behaviour)

http://www.xcalak.info/images/florafauna/fer_de_lance_l.jpg

The mesoamerican calendar also represents snake heads in a similar manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzolkin

The abstraction of the snake design used in mayan culture seemed
non-denominational enough to only raise contrived objections. The shapes
used (cross/spiral/yin-yang) are also primitive enough that there will
always be connotations that can be derived.

http://www.alovelyworld.com/webhon/gimage/hdu011.jpg

http://www.khoahoc.com.vn/photos/Image/2005/11/16/maya-snake.jpg

http://www.xcalak.info/images/florafauna/fer_de_lance_l.jpg

The two headed snake was also an influence on the design

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bjayatil/British%20Museum%20&%20London/slides/17-aztec_snake.html

which is also a common 'meme' in many continents, including africa

http://www.sfu.ca/archaeology/museum/ndi/cam5.jpg

And I'd like to see you tell a civil war soldier that it looks like his
trousers are held up by a two headed tadpole

http://www.civilwarrelics.com/museum/graphics/Frame25a.JPG

If you look carefully at the logo, you will also see an indian symbol of
peace.. (I'll leave this one alone as it can also mean something else).



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Re: proposed Python logo

[Grant Edwards]

On 2006-04-21, Michael Tobis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> (The main thing I dislike about Python is that the documentation is too
> sketchy.

Well, Monty Python was a pretty sketchy show...

[sorry]

> The best snake-and-language logos I have seen are the Twisted-Matrix
> one and the PyCon one.

Sincy Python wasn't named after the snake, why the insistence
on using a snake in the logo?

> But I think my idea can be developed too. I think the colon as
> snake-eyes thing is a big win. We would think affectionately
> of the snake every time we type the unnecessary colon.

I think something Monty Python related would be better.  How
about a nice can of spam?

I doubt our friends in Austin would like that idea.  OTOH,
there is a Monty Python "spam, spam, spam, spam" display in the
spam museum (which is actually much more interesting than you
might think).

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  at   
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Re: proposed Python logo

[A.M. Kuchling]

On 21 Apr 2006 09:17:52 -0700, 
BartlebyScrivener <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'd like some variation of  used as a logo.
> That has real potential, but I bet it's trademarked.

It's taken from a Renaissance painting
(http://witcombe.sbc.edu/davincicode/bronzino-allegory.html -- NSFW,
if your workplace is dumb), so the foot itself shouldn't be
trademarked; its use alongside the word "Python" might conceivably be.

--amk

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Re: proposed Python logo

[BartlebyScrivener]

>> Eric Idle is going to be at my favorite Borders bookstore in half an
>> hour. Should I go ask him? (I'm not going to do that; it's just an odd
>> coincidence from my point of view.)

Speaking of coincidences, you might ask him if Python's Integrated
Development Environment is named after him.  ;>

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Michael Tobis]

> Not that I'm disagreeing, but how to you rate "resonance with the product"?

Hmm, I'm not a marketing professional, but this is would I would do
with my focus groups:

Ask people familar with the product to name what they like about the
image, and what they like about the product, and look for analogies
between them. Ask them what they dislike about the image and the
product, and minimize overlap.

(The main thing I dislike about Python is that the documentation is too
sketchy. It's very unclear what the official logo represents. So
another strike against it; it reminds me of the confusion I often face
on making use of an unfamiliar module.)

Ask people who are unfamiliar with the product who are potential users
what they have heard good and bad about the product, and its strengths
and weaknesses compared to its competition. Compare with their
impressions of the logo.

I am my own focus group, but people who are following this thread can
simply show the existing logo to people and ask for their impressions.
Try showing it (without the text) to non-Pythonista programmers, who
probably haven't seen python.org lately, without telling them what it
represents. See what their associations are.

I've already explained my negative associations with the official logo,
and some of the positive ones of my prototype alternative. See the post
that started this thread and the thread it links to.

The best snake-and-language logos I have seen are the Twisted-Matrix
one and the PyCon one. But I think my idea can be developed too. I
think the colon as snake-eyes thing is a big win. We would think
affectionately of the snake every time we type the unnecessary colon.

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Michael Tobis]

> Sorry dude, but it looks like a hairdryer!

I'm afraid you have a point :-/ .

> I think that the current logo is fine. Much more professional than the old 
> image.

Yes, it is a MUCH more professional rendering than the old image, and
it leaves a MUCH better first impression of the homepage.

That said, and conceding that the first impression is positive, I don't
see how it represents Python. More to the point, the longer I look at
it the less I like it, and I would NOT wear it on a T-shirt.

> The + formation is positive enough, and it has a yin-yang
> feel to it which to me conjures up the image of balance, not
> divisiveness.

Both the cross and the yin-yang have religious associations, which will
be positive for some and negative for others but will certainly be
unrepresentative of what Python is. This would be a great logo for
Taoist Christians, if such a group exists.

How is Python about "balance"? It is about abstraction, composition,
the whole greater than the parts, yes, but there's nothing there that
really draws on duality. So the whole two-ness of the thing is one of
the parts that disturbs me.

mt

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Michael Tobis]

Don't you think the Python Boys ought to have something to say about
it?

Eric Idle is going to be at my favorite Borders bookstore in half an
hour. Should I go ask him? (I'm not going to do that; it's just an odd
coincidence from my point of view.)

I think there are trademark issues similar to the Apple vs Apple ones.
Perhaps we would have to promise them not to have a sense of humor.

mt

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Re: proposed Python logo

[BartlebyScrivener]

>> I'd like some variation of  used as a logo.

That has real potential, but I bet it's trademarked.

rick

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Simon Brunning]

On 4/21/06, Michael Yanowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I think something from Monty Python (I haven't watched it recently
> to know what would be ideal) would be more appropriate than an ugly
> reptile which is usually associated with evil and our reason for leaving
> the Garden of Eden.

+1. I'd like some variation of  used as a logo.

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Re: proposed Python logo

[RK]

That's a good try...

Can we get some street pros?

http://www.graffitifonts.com/

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Grant Edwards]

On 2006-04-21, Michael Tobis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Too rigid-looking somehow.
>
> Hey, I'm an amateur...  There are lots of variations on the concept I
> can think of. I want someone with a lot of design talent  *and a little
> familiarity with the language* to take enough interest to have a go at
> it.
>
> At least (unlike the tadpoles) it has some resonance with the product
> it's trying to represent.

Not that I'm disagreeing, but how to you rate "resonance with
the product"?

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Michael Tobis]

> Too rigid-looking somehow.

Hey, I'm an amateur...  There are lots of variations on the concept I
can think of. I want someone with a lot of design talent  *and a little
familiarity with the language* to take enough interest to have a go at
it.

At least (unlike the tadpoles) it has some resonance with the product
it's trying to represent.

mt

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Re: proposed Python logo

[BartlebyScrivener]

No matter what you do, "Python" is going to sum up the image of a
powerful snake. I suppose you could change the name to "Monty," if you
wanted more humor and more of a reference to Monty Python, or maybe
"Bring Out Your Dead."

Personally I like the snake associations and the notion that you're
joining a cult where everybody speaks in Parseltongue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priori_Incantatem#Speaking_parseltongue

rd

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Gerard Flanagan]

Michael Yanowitz wrote:
> How about having something from Monty Python in the logo rather
> than something snakelike. Python was named after Monty Python and not
> the snake. Snakes also don't appear friendly to me.
>   I used to have rats as pets. Snakes are murderers of rats. Which I

Never mind rats, have you seen the Google ads for this thread?


http://www.salfordadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/211/211961_goodness_snake.html


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16959435&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=python-back-on-the-telly--name_page.html

!!!-)

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RE: proposed Python logo

[Michael Yanowitz]

   How about having something from Monty Python in the logo rather
than something snakelike. Python was named after Monty Python and not
the snake. Snakes also don't appear friendly to me.
  I used to have rats as pets. Snakes are murderers of rats. Which I
do find strange that there is a rat on the cover of "Learning Python"
by Oreilly but a Python snake on the "Progamming Python" by Oreilly
book.
   I think something from Monty Python (I haven't watched it recently
to know what would be ideal) would be more appropriate than an ugly
reptile which is usually associated with evil and our reason for leaving
the Garden of Eden.

  (Take me serious or not, I don't care, this is just my opinion,
but with a little humor.)

Thanks in advance:


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of Ant
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 6:31 AM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Re: proposed Python logo


Sorry dude, but it looks like a hairdryer! Imagine it at 16x16 pixels
or smaller, and it'll look like little more than a circle with two
sticks. The current image scales well.

I think that the current logo is fine. Much more professional than the
old image. The + formation is positive enough, and it has a yin-yang
feel to it which to me conjures up the image of balance, not
divisiveness.

JM2PW


  I would like to see a Python Logo
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Re: proposed Python logo

[Ant]

Sorry dude, but it looks like a hairdryer! Imagine it at 16x16 pixels
or smaller, and it'll look like little more than a circle with two
sticks. The current image scales well.

I think that the current logo is fine. Much more professional than the
old image. The + formation is positive enough, and it has a yin-yang
feel to it which to me conjures up the image of balance, not
divisiveness.

JM2PW

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Re: proposed Python logo

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
 "Michael Tobis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>"Is this the right room for an argument?"
>
>http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/snake.png

Too rigid-looking somehow. I think get rid of the straight right-angle 
lines.
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Re: proposed Python logo

[BartlebyScrivener]

I like the tadpoles. Yours looks like a phonograph needle, circa 1960.

Just my opinion.

rick

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proposed Python logo

[Michael Tobis]

"Is this the right room for an argument?"

http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~tobis/snake.png

ok, so my execution is pretty crude, but you can at least see my idea.
I trust you to imagine it professionally executed in cheerful colors.

Advantages of proposed logo over existing logo
--

represents an actual python involved in python-like behavior, rather
than two tadpoles

has a sense of dynamism and forward motion, as opposed to backwardness
and upside-downiness

the eyes form a colon, thus remeniscent of python code, and the coil is
indicative of the "more than meets the eye" that a python object so
remarkably delivers

also, pythons coil around their eggs!

succeeds in making snake into a letter "P" without making it face
backwards, and yet resists the unfortunate temptation to use a forked
tongue to make a "y"

numerous variations and animations immediately present themsleves

no obvious references to religious icons

will sell T shirts and lapel pins; a swag clock is an obvious
possibility


(did I mention ( http://tinyurl.com/rkq3s ) that I don't like the
current logo?)


Much as it would be an ego-boost for me to have some version of this
idea used for the language, I'm  almost as happy with repurposing the
most excellent PyCon logo if that is OK with everyone involved. But imo
we can't fully promote the power of Python with tadpoles.

mt

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