[Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
The conversation about Fink & Darwinports has introduced me to linuxy package managers for the first time, and I have to say, this looks much easier than trying to compile libraries and manage dependencies myself. My question: can I use py2app to build a redistributable app that's statically linked to either package manager's libraries? Or do I have to install Fink/DarwinPorts on each of my clients' machines? (I would like to develop an app that uses numeric, scientific python, wxPython, and matplotlib, which are all somewhat difficult to install by hand, but are all readily available via Fink or DarwinPorts) __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
On 8-feb-05, at 15:51, Brendan Simons wrote: The conversation about Fink & Darwinports has introduced me to linuxy package managers for the first time, and I have to say, this looks much easier than trying to compile libraries and manage dependencies myself. My question: can I use py2app to build a redistributable app that's statically linked to either package manager's libraries? Or do I have to install Fink/DarwinPorts on each of my clients' machines? (I would like to develop an app that uses numeric, scientific python, wxPython, and matplotlib, which are all somewhat difficult to install by hand, but are all readily available via Fink or DarwinPorts) py2app copies all required shared libraries into your application bundle. System libraries are not copied. Ronald ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
On Feb 8, 2005, at 10:35, Ronald Oussoren wrote: On 8-feb-05, at 15:51, Brendan Simons wrote: The conversation about Fink & Darwinports has introduced me to linuxy package managers for the first time, and I have to say, this looks much easier than trying to compile libraries and manage dependencies myself. My question: can I use py2app to build a redistributable app that's statically linked to either package manager's libraries? Or do I have to install Fink/DarwinPorts on each of my clients' machines? (I would like to develop an app that uses numeric, scientific python, wxPython, and matplotlib, which are all somewhat difficult to install by hand, but are all readily available via Fink or DarwinPorts) py2app copies all required shared libraries into your application bundle. System libraries are not copied. Yes, you can use py2app with Fink (linux-y) or Darwinports (bsd-y) dependencies, but your application may become gigantic in the FInk case due to duplication of libraries the system already has. Not so much of a problem with Darwinports. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
Bob Ippolito wrote: On 8-feb-05, at 15:51, Brendan Simons wrote: My question: can I use py2app to build a redistributable app that's statically linked to either package manager's libraries? Or do I have to install Fink/DarwinPorts on each of my clients' machines? If you are distributing a single substantial application, py2app is probably the way to go. However, if you are distributing a set of apps, you may not want each one to have a complete copy of everything, so... (I would like to develop an app that uses numeric, scientific python, wxPython, and matplotlib, which are all somewhat difficult to install by hand, but are all readily available via Fink or DarwinPorts) The Fink and Darwinports versions of these will give you X11 versions (particularly wxPython), which you may not want (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, if you use fink, you may get it all working with the fink Python. Will py2app bundle a fink python app? And as Bob pointed out, fink, at least, will give you a bunch if libs that duplicate ones that are included with a stock OS-X As to the "difficult to install": Numeric is easy, with either setup.py build (once it's fixed...argg!), or even easier, with the mpgk that Bob put out. matplotlib is now easy, thanks to the mpkg that I just put together (only works with Agg and wxPython at the moment, though poorly tested with wxPython. I'm planning on making a GTK and TK compatible version soon, anyone want to help?). Bob, if you're reading this, could post the link? SciPy is probably a pain in the $^%^&. I haven't tried it recently. However, my goal is to make an nice OS-X package of this as well. I'm looking for folks to help with that. My impression of fink (and darwinports may be different, I'll be checking that out) is that it's kind of an all-or-nothing proposition. If you want a Linux-like system, running in parallel to OS-X, on the same kernel, you'll be quite happy. If you want it to feel like it's part of OS-X you won't. Being a Linux geek, you'd think I'd be happy with the former, but frankly, If I want Linux,. I'll run Linux (and I do). On OS-X I want OS-X, and, more importantly, folks I work with, that I give apps too, don't want to have anything to do with Linux, command lines, X11, or figuring out apt-get. I really think we can get a complete set of OS-X friendly packages out for all to use. it's really not all that hard, once you've got the tricks figured out. We'll have a MUCH easier time getting folks to use python on OS-X if we have nice friendly binaries for them to install. By the way, what is the status of Package Manger, and the two repositories (Jack's and Bob's) Are they being maintained? should I submit matplotlib to them? If anyone want to help with my SciPy on OS-X project, please let me know. There is some real momentum in the NumPy/SciPy crowd to make SciPy easier to install right now. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] REMINDER: OSCON / Python 13 submissions deadline is Feb. 13th
Don't forget that the deadline for submitting a talk or tutorial for OSCON / Python 13 is Sunday, February 13th. ka --- Kevin Altis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://altis.pycs.net/ The Call for Proposals has just opened for the 7th Annual O'Reilly Open Source Convention http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ OSCON is headed back to friendly, economical Portland, Oregon during the week of August 1-5, 2005. If you've ever wanted to join the OSCON speaker firmament, now's your chance to submit a proposal (or two) by February 13, 2005. Complete details are available on the OSCON web site, but we're particularly interested in exploring how software development is moving to another level, and how developers and businesses are adjusting to new business models and architectures. We're looking for sessions, tutorials, and workshops proposals that appeal to developers, systems and network administrators, and their managers in the following areas: - All aspects of building applications, services, and systems that use the new capabilities of the open source platform - Burning issues for Java, Mozilla, web apps, and beyond - The commoditization of software: who and/or what can show us the money? - Network-enabled collaboration - Software customizability, including software as a service - Law, licensing, politics, and how best to navigate other troubled waters Specific topics and tracks at OSCON 2005 include: Linux and other open source operating systems, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Databases (including MySQL and PostgreSQL), Apache, XML, Applications, Ruby, and Security. Attendees have a wide range of experience, so be sure to target a particular level of experience: beginner, intermediate, advanced. Talks and tutorials should be technical; strictly no marketing presentations. Session presentations are 45 or 90 minutes long, and tutorials are either a half-day (3 hours) or a full day (6 hours). Feel free to spread the word about the Call for Proposals to your friends, family, colleagues, and compatriots. We want everyone to submit, from American women hacking artificial life into the Linux kernel to Belgian men building a better mousetrap from PHP and recycled military hardware. We mean everyone! Even if you don't want to participate as a speaker, send us your suggestions--topics you'd like to see covered, groups we should bring into the OSCON fold, extra-curricular activities we should organize--to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . This year, we're moving to the wide open spaces of the Oregon Convention Center. We've arranged for the nearby Doubletree Hotel to be our headquarters hotel--it's a short, free Max light rail ride (or a lovely walk) from the Convention Center. Registration opens in April 2005; hotel information will be available shortly. Deadline to submit a proposal is Midnight (PST), February 13. For all the conference details, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ Press coverage, blogs, photos, and news from the 2004 O'Reilly Open Source Convention can be found at: http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2004/ Would your company like to make a big impression on the open source community? If so, consider exhibiting or becoming a sponsor. Contact Andrew Calvo at (707) 827-7176, or [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more info. See you Portland next summer, The O'Reilly OSCON Team ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] [Jython-users] REMINDER: OSCON / Python 13 submissions deadline is Feb. 13th
Don't forget that the deadline for submitting a talk or tutorial for OSCON / Python 13 is Sunday, February 13th. ka --- Kevin Altis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://altis.pycs.net/ The Call for Proposals has just opened for the 7th Annual O'Reilly Open Source Convention http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ OSCON is headed back to friendly, economical Portland, Oregon during the week of August 1-5, 2005. If you've ever wanted to join the OSCON speaker firmament, now's your chance to submit a proposal (or two) by February 13, 2005. Complete details are available on the OSCON web site, but we're particularly interested in exploring how software development is moving to another level, and how developers and businesses are adjusting to new business models and architectures. We're looking for sessions, tutorials, and workshops proposals that appeal to developers, systems and network administrators, and their managers in the following areas: - All aspects of building applications, services, and systems that use the new capabilities of the open source platform - Burning issues for Java, Mozilla, web apps, and beyond - The commoditization of software: who and/or what can show us the money? - Network-enabled collaboration - Software customizability, including software as a service - Law, licensing, politics, and how best to navigate other troubled waters Specific topics and tracks at OSCON 2005 include: Linux and other open source operating systems, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Databases (including MySQL and PostgreSQL), Apache, XML, Applications, Ruby, and Security. Attendees have a wide range of experience, so be sure to target a particular level of experience: beginner, intermediate, advanced. Talks and tutorials should be technical; strictly no marketing presentations. Session presentations are 45 or 90 minutes long, and tutorials are either a half-day (3 hours) or a full day (6 hours). Feel free to spread the word about the Call for Proposals to your friends, family, colleagues, and compatriots. We want everyone to submit, from American women hacking artificial life into the Linux kernel to Belgian men building a better mousetrap from PHP and recycled military hardware. We mean everyone! Even if you don't want to participate as a speaker, send us your suggestions--topics you'd like to see covered, groups we should bring into the OSCON fold, extra-curricular activities we should organize--to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . This year, we're moving to the wide open spaces of the Oregon Convention Center. We've arranged for the nearby Doubletree Hotel to be our headquarters hotel--it's a short, free Max light rail ride (or a lovely walk) from the Convention Center. Registration opens in April 2005; hotel information will be available shortly. Deadline to submit a proposal is Midnight (PST), February 13. For all the conference details, go to: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/os2005/ Press coverage, blogs, photos, and news from the 2004 O'Reilly Open Source Convention can be found at: http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2004/ Would your company like to make a big impression on the open source community? If so, consider exhibiting or becoming a sponsor. Contact Andrew Calvo at (707) 827-7176, or [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more info. See you Portland next summer, The O'Reilly OSCON Team --- SF email is sponsored by - The IT Product Guide Read honest & candid reviews on hundreds of IT Products from real users. Discover which products truly live up to the hype. Start reading now. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=6595&alloc_id=14396&op=click ___ Jython-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jython-users ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
Hi all, I'm not sure who maintain the pythonmac wiki, but it's been spammed. What a pain in the *&%*^! for example, see: http://pythonmac.org/wiki/TkAqua -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
On Feb 8, 2005, at 14:14, Chris Barker wrote: I'm not sure who maintain the pythonmac wiki, but it's been spammed. What a pain in the *&%*^! for example, see: http://pythonmac.org/wiki/TkAqua Unfortunately I do.. but I don't really have time to deal with the spam. It has a defense in that existing pages can't be edited with too many URLs, but creating new pages lets you use as many URLs as you want. I think I'd rather replace the installation with something else or a newer version of MoinMoin before I go hacking at it any more. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
On Feb 8, 2005, at 12:57, Chris Barker wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: On 8-feb-05, at 15:51, Brendan Simons wrote: My question: can I use py2app to build a redistributable app that's statically linked to either package manager's libraries? Or do I have to install Fink/DarwinPorts on each of my clients' machines? If you are distributing a single substantial application, py2app is probably the way to go. However, if you are distributing a set of apps, you may not want each one to have a complete copy of everything, so... Eh, you probably want them to for everything but the most controlled environments. Bandwidth and disk space is cheaper than support hassles. (I would like to develop an app that uses numeric, scientific python, wxPython, and matplotlib, which are all somewhat difficult to install by hand, but are all readily available via Fink or DarwinPorts) The Fink and Darwinports versions of these will give you X11 versions (particularly wxPython), which you may not want (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, if you use fink, you may get it all working with the fink Python. Will py2app bundle a fink python app? And as Bob pointed out, fink, at least, will give you a bunch if libs that duplicate ones that are included with a stock OS-X py2app is compatible and tested with darwinports, which means that it should also work with Fink, unless they screwed something up :) As to the "difficult to install": Numeric is easy, with either setup.py build (once it's fixed...argg!), or even easier, with the mpgk that Bob put out. matplotlib is now easy, thanks to the mpkg that I just put together (only works with Agg and wxPython at the moment, though poorly tested with wxPython. I'm planning on making a GTK and TK compatible version soon, anyone want to help?). Bob, if you're reading this, could post the link? SciPy is probably a pain in the $^%^&. I haven't tried it recently. However, my goal is to make an nice OS-X package of this as well. I'm looking for folks to help with that. My impression of fink (and darwinports may be different, I'll be checking that out) is that it's kind of an all-or-nothing proposition. If you want a Linux-like system, running in parallel to OS-X, on the same kernel, you'll be quite happy. If you want it to feel like it's part of OS-X you won't. Being a Linux geek, you'd think I'd be happy with the former, but frankly, If I want Linux,. I'll run Linux (and I do). On OS-X I want OS-X, and, more importantly, folks I work with, that I give apps too, don't want to have anything to do with Linux, command lines, X11, or figuring out apt-get. Darwinports is a lot less all-or-nothing. I have very few things activated from darwinports at a given time and it works and interoperates with the rest of the stuff I have rather well. I really think we can get a complete set of OS-X friendly packages out for all to use. it's really not all that hard, once you've got the tricks figured out. We'll have a MUCH easier time getting folks to use python on OS-X if we have nice friendly binaries for them to install. I agree. By the way, what is the status of Package Manger, and the two repositories (Jack's and Bob's) Are they being maintained? should I submit matplotlib to them? Mine is not. I'm going to toss it in favor of a mpkg and/or egg based solution when one is ready. If anyone want to help with my SciPy on OS-X project, please let me know. There is some real momentum in the NumPy/SciPy crowd to make SciPy easier to install right now. Well, if it will build, bdist_mpkg will package it.. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
Bob wrote: I'm not sure who maintain the pythonmac wiki, but it's been spammed. What a pain in the *&%*^! Unfortunately I do.. but I don't really have time to deal with the spam. It has a defense in that existing pages can't be edited with too many URLs, but creating new pages lets you use as many URLs as you want. I think I'd rather replace the installation with something else or a newer version of MoinMoin before I go hacking at it any more. How about merging it into the python.org wiki? Let someone else do all the hard work for a change. HTH has -- http://freespace.virgin.net/hamish.sanderson/ ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
>> http://pythonmac.org/wiki/TkAqua Bob> Unfortunately I do.. but I don't really have time to deal with the Bob> spam. It has a defense in that existing pages can't be edited with Bob> too many URLs, but creating new pages lets you use as many URLs as Bob> you want. I think I'd rather replace the installation with Bob> something else or a newer version of MoinMoin before I go hacking Bob> at it any more. Bob, I assume you're using MoinMoin 1.2.something. There is a global Moin anti-spam facility you can enable without too much trouble. Take a look at how that's managed for the python.org wiki: http://www.python.org/moin/WikiSpam That also includes a link to the main wiki page for that facility. Skip ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
On Feb 8, 2005, at 15:22, Skip Montanaro wrote: http://pythonmac.org/wiki/TkAqua Bob> Unfortunately I do.. but I don't really have time to deal with the Bob> spam. It has a defense in that existing pages can't be edited with Bob> too many URLs, but creating new pages lets you use as many URLs as Bob> you want. I think I'd rather replace the installation with Bob> something else or a newer version of MoinMoin before I go hacking Bob> at it any more. I assume you're using MoinMoin 1.2.something. There is a global Moin anti-spam facility you can enable without too much trouble. Take a look at how that's managed for the python.org wiki: http://www.python.org/moin/WikiSpam That also includes a link to the main wiki page for that facility. I think that I implemented that a while ago.. Anyway, I don't really have time to screw with it for at least a few days. If someone else wants to baby it, I'd gladly hand over the keys. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
On Feb 8, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: My impression of fink (and darwinports may be different, I'll be checking that out) is that it's kind of an all-or-nothing proposition. If you want a Linux-like system, running in parallel to OS-X, on the same kernel, you'll be quite happy. If you want it to feel like it's part of OS-X you won't. Being a Linux geek, you'd think I'd be happy with the former, but frankly, If I want Linux,. I'll run Linux (and I do). On OS-X I want OS-X, and, more importantly, folks I work with, that I give apps too, don't want to have anything to do with Linux, command lines, X11, or figuring out apt-get. Darwinports is a lot less all-or-nothing. I have very few things activated from darwinports at a given time and it works and interoperates with the rest of the stuff I have rather well. I really think we can get a complete set of OS-X friendly packages out for all to use. it's really not all that hard, once you've got the tricks figured out. We'll have a MUCH easier time getting folks to use python on OS-X if we have nice friendly binaries for them to install. I agree. You can hardly guess how good the above music sounds to the ears of the Terminal-ly challenged & similar Mac-hacking persons like myself. I write goofy linguistic-research apps, I don't do systems stuff. People like me love Python too. Charles Hartman ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] PIL 1.1.5b3 installer for Mac OS X 10.3
I've put together a Mac OS X 10.3 binary installer for PIL 1.1.5b3 available here: http://undefined.org/python/Imaging-1.1.5b3-py2.3-macosx10.3.zip Details are here: http://bob.pythonmac.org/archives/2005/02/08/pil-115b3-for-mac-os-x -103/ -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
has> How about merging it into the python.org wiki? Let someone else do has> all the hard work for a change. That thought occurred to me right after I posted my earlier reply. There are several of us that keep a fairly close eye on the python.org wiki. If you want, I'm sure the option to move would be available. Skip ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
On Feb 8, 2005, at 16:41, Skip Montanaro wrote: has> How about merging it into the python.org wiki? Let someone else do has> all the hard work for a change. That thought occurred to me right after I posted my earlier reply. There are several of us that keep a fairly close eye on the python.org wiki. If you want, I'm sure the option to move would be available. That works fine for me.. what are the next steps? It would be nice to have our own "namespace" so that pythonmac.org/wiki/FAQ can still url rewrite to the right place. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
Bob Ippolito wrote: Mine is not. I'm going to toss it in favor of a mpkg and/or egg based solution when one is ready. Sounds good to me. I've always thought that you need to make it easy, but not too easy. Years ago, someone hosted a "python on Linux" site, that had nothing but a bunch of rpm of various python packages. If you had a version of Linux that they worked with, it was great, and extremely simple. Download what you want, and install it. For OS-X, it could be even easier, as there aren't as many flavors of OS-X out there in the wild. As we all start to create more mpkgs, it there someone that wants to host the collection? Bob? Another option is for each package to be hosted at it's home (i.e. matplotlib.mpkg hosted at the matplotlib site). I'm not sure which is best, but I tend to lean toward making one site for OS-X packages. For that matter, it could be the same site as people put packages for other systems, packaged up in their native format. I tried to get something like this going a few years ago, but got very little support. I think most python programmers find it far more interesting to discuss/developer a nifty packaging system, rather than just maintaining a collection. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:01 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: Mine is not. I'm going to toss it in favor of a mpkg and/or egg based solution when one is ready. Sounds good to me. I've always thought that you need to make it easy, but not too easy. Years ago, someone hosted a "python on Linux" site, that had nothing but a bunch of rpm of various python packages. If you had a version of Linux that they worked with, it was great, and extremely simple. Download what you want, and install it. For OS-X, it could be even easier, as there aren't as many flavors of OS-X out there in the wild. As we all start to create more mpkgs, it there someone that wants to host the collection? Bob? I'll host packages if other people build them :) Another option is for each package to be hosted at it's home (i.e. matplotlib.mpkg hosted at the matplotlib site). I'm not sure which is best, but I tend to lean toward making one site for OS-X packages. For that matter, it could be the same site as people put packages for other systems, packaged up in their native format. I tried to get something like this going a few years ago, but got very little support. I think most python programmers find it far more interesting to discuss/developer a nifty packaging system, rather than just maintaining a collection. It's usually easier to have a platform-specific repository because you don't have to bug the author to update his page. It would be nice to have a central place to host everything (at least metadata), and that's what PyPI aims to be someday. Without the infrastructure, you can't really maintain a large collection unless you have a lot of free time, which most people don't. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: PIL 1.1.5b3 installer for Mac OS X 10.3
Bob Ippolito wrote: > I've put together a Mac OS X 10.3 binary installer for PIL 1.1.5b3 available > here: > http://undefined.org/python/Imaging-1.1.5b3-py2.3-macosx10.3.zip most excellent. thanks! I've included a pointer to your blog entry in the "official" announcement. ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] pythonmac Wiki has been spammed.
>> There are several of us that keep a fairly close eye on the >> python.org wiki. If you want, I'm sure the option to move would be >> available. Bob> That works fine for me.. what are the next steps? It would be nice Bob> to have our own "namespace" so that pythonmac.org/wiki/FAQ can Bob> still url rewrite to the right place. Let me check on the python.org maintainers list and get back to you (off-list unless there are others that care about these minutiae). Skip ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
I'm a developer who primarily works with higher level languages, and integrated tools. Director, REALbasic, Revolution. I've done plenty of advanced scripting with those tools, and am trying to move into Python for the open-source benefits, among other things. I've just ordered several books which should help me with the scripting hurdles, and the methodologies... but no matter how many web sites I scan, and how many downloads I've done, I can't quite see how to build and maintain a cohesive toolset. There are thousands of individual parts and pieces, lots of semi-working IDEs and debuggers... I've looked through some of the archives for this list, but I've yet to find anything written for Mac users that is aimed at - Getting you, the Mac user who is familiar with scripting, up and running with - 1) Python 2) An IDE and debugger (Xcode?) 3) A GUI toolkit (wxWidgets?) >From my end, I think I have evrything running, but I don't know if I want to tackle this without the "security" of an environment which includes code colorization (if not completion), a debugger, and ideally a interactive interpreter tied in for command line testing. I've taken a look at several of them, but they all seem to have stability issues. Can Xcode behave like what a Python developer would like, with the above mentioned features? Is it easy to set up? If so, that would seem to be the way to go. Is there a better option? I apologize for the newbiness of the post, but Python is a natural location for a lot of different types of people to migrate to, and I've noted a running theme about that in some recent posts here. For those of us with limited command line experience, and no C++ or low-level programming experience, it is a bit bewildering. There is almost too much info available, and none of it is aimed at getting you set up with a development toolset which can really get you off the ground, and behaves anything like an integrated experience. To move from a commercial IDE with many bells and whistles (like Director) into a black and white text editor would seem a bit harsh. Thanks for any insights, suggestions, comments, or reference links. -- Troy Rollins RPSystems, Ltd. www.rpsystems.net ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:46 PM, Troy Rollins wrote: I'm a developer who primarily works with higher level languages, and integrated tools. Director, REALbasic, Revolution. I've done plenty of advanced scripting with those tools, and am trying to move into Python for the open-source benefits, among other things. I've just ordered several books which should help me with the scripting hurdles, and the methodologies... but no matter how many web sites I scan, and how many downloads I've done, I can't quite see how to build and maintain a cohesive toolset. There are thousands of individual parts and pieces, lots of semi-working IDEs and debuggers... Welcome to free software? I've looked through some of the archives for this list, but I've yet to find anything written for Mac users that is aimed at - Getting you, the Mac user who is familiar with scripting, up and running with - 1) Python 2) An IDE and debugger (Xcode?) 3) A GUI toolkit (wxWidgets?) I'd highly recommend PyObjC if cross-platform isn't an immediate goal. Other than that, wxPython seems to be the default, but you'll probably have to fight with it to do what you want. From my end, I think I have evrything running, but I don't know if I want to tackle this without the "security" of an environment which includes code colorization (if not completion), a debugger, and ideally a interactive interpreter tied in for command line testing. I've taken a look at several of them, but they all seem to have stability issues. Can Xcode behave like what a Python developer would like, with the above mentioned features? Is it easy to set up? If so, that would seem to be the way to go. Is there a better option? No, Xcode can not provide you with any more than syntax highlighting. Debugging is not an option beyond interacting with pdb on a console (same as you would from Terminal). It's possible to write such a feature, but there is no public API for doing so, so nobody is likely to do it. PyOXIDE is out there, Mac OS X native, and open source, but it might be immature (I don't have real experience with it, so I can't say). All the rest are either ancient and featureless (the MacPython IDE), or based on cross-platform toolkits and aren't very Mac-like. I have heard good things about Wing, which is a commercial IDE for Python, but only runs under X11 for Mac OS X. I apologize for the newbiness of the post, but Python is a natural location for a lot of different types of people to migrate to, and I've noted a running theme about that in some recent posts here. For those of us with limited command line experience, and no C++ or low-level programming experience, it is a bit bewildering. There is almost too much info available, and none of it is aimed at getting you set up with a development toolset which can really get you off the ground, and behaves anything like an integrated experience. To move from a commercial IDE with many bells and whistles (like Director) into a black and white text editor would seem a bit harsh. Most text editors worth using have syntax coloring, SubEthaEdit, BBEdit, Xcode, etc.Even the ones you would use from a terminal (Emacs, Vim) are going to have syntax highlighting. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
> I don't know if I > want to tackle this without the "security" of an environment which > includes code colorization (if not completion), a debugger, and > ideally a interactive interpreter tied in for command line testing. I use Emacs for all of this. python-mode.el works well for colorization, and pdb works as both an interactive interpreter and a debugger. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
Bob Ippolito wrote: Getting you, the Mac user who is familiar with scripting, up and running with - 1) Python There are a number of good books out there. I recommend "Dive Into Python" (in print or on the web) and "Learning Python" 2) An IDE and debugger (Xcode?) Don't be too dismayed by the lack of a fully-integrated IDE. While very nice when getting started, I'm not the least bit convinced that they really i8increase productivity in the long term. Among other things, I edit a lot of other text than Python Code, and I can only make really good use of all my editors features if I use the same editor for everything. I find I can be very productive with a good editor and a terminal. Check out iPython as well, for a better interactive interpreter. Remarkably, with Python, I still find print statement more efficient to use than a debugger. 3) A GUI toolkit (wxWidgets?) I'd highly recommend PyObjC if cross-platform isn't an immediate goal. Well, if it's a goal at all, consider other options. Otherwise, Bob is right, even though I've never used it. Other than that, wxPython seems to be the default, but you'll probably have to fight with it to do what you want. Bob, I know you don't think much of wxPython, but please don't bad-mouth it this way. Those of us that use it don't feel like we're fighting with it. The other cross-platform options are TkInter, which has been problematic on the Mac for years, but is now better? pyGTK, which uses X11 on OS-X, and PyQT, which has licensing issues. If you want all open-source and anything resembling a OS-X look, wxPython is the only real option, but you will end up with slightly less native feeling app than PyObjC. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Feb 8, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: 3) A GUI toolkit (wxWidgets?) I'd highly recommend PyObjC if cross-platform isn't an immediate goal. Well, if it's a goal at all, consider other options. Otherwise, Bob is right, even though I've never used it. Well if it's not an immediate goal, you can get something out quickly with PyObjC, and then decide how to handle the other platforms. In some cases, the UI is going to be so much easier to do in PyObjC that it's worthwhile to maintain it separately from the other platforms. In some cases, you'll want to use so much native functionality (.Mac, AddressBook, Services, better pasteboard and drag+drop, whatever) that crufting it into a single "cross-platform" code base does more harm than good anyway. Other than that, wxPython seems to be the default, but you'll probably have to fight with it to do what you want. Bob, I know you don't think much of wxPython, but please don't bad-mouth it this way. Those of us that use it don't feel like we're fighting with it. The other cross-platform options are TkInter, which has been problematic on the Mac for years, but is now better? pyGTK, which uses X11 on OS-X, and PyQT, which has licensing issues. If you want all open-source and anything resembling a OS-X look, wxPython is the only real option, but you will end up with slightly less native feeling app than PyObjC. Well, whenever I have to use wxPython, that's how it feels. I definitely recommend it over Tkinter, pyGTK, and PyQT, though. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:59:46 -0500, Bob Ippolito <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:46 PM, Troy Rollins wrote: > > cohesive toolset. There are thousands of individual parts and pieces, > > lots of semi-working IDEs and debuggers... > > Welcome to free software? Ha. Fair enough. I guess my point is mostly that Python seems pretty mature, and yet still manages to be scattered. I realize that the best thing would be for me to take the task on myself, but I'm barely versed enough yet to run packageManager... and frankly don't even know if that is the best way to manage all the parts and pieces. > > 1) Python > > 2) An IDE and debugger (Xcode?) > > 3) A GUI toolkit (wxWidgets?) > > I'd highly recommend PyObjC if cross-platform isn't an immediate goal. > Other than that, wxPython seems to be the default, but you'll probably > have to fight with it to do what you want. I've looked at this, and it looks as though it will allow the use of Interface Builder for GUI, driven by Python. While that is only a Mac solution, it may be a great route to get started with. So, I take it that I don't have to use Xcode for the code writing...? > No, Xcode can not provide you with any more than syntax highlighting. > Debugging is not an option beyond interacting with pdb on a console > (same as you would from Terminal). It's possible to write such a > feature, but there is no public API for doing so, so nobody is likely > to do it. Fair enough, then Xcode is out, unless it is required for PyObjc. > > PyOXIDE is out there, Mac OS X native, and open source, but it might be > immature (I don't have real experience with it, so I can't say). All > the rest are either ancient and featureless (the MacPython IDE), or > based on cross-platform toolkits and aren't very Mac-like. I have > heard good things about Wing, which is a commercial IDE for Python, but > only runs under X11 for Mac OS X. I've tried PyOxide, which is very promising, but doesn't seem fully stable yet. Currently, Wing seems the best equipped, but its X11 approach feels a bit like a Java app. I guess it may be the best available right now, and it is certainly more stable than the others. > >> To move > > from a commercial IDE with many bells and whistles (like Director) > > into a black and white text editor would seem a bit harsh. > > Most text editors worth using have syntax coloring, SubEthaEdit, > BBEdit, Xcode, etc.Even the ones you would use from a terminal > (Emacs, Vim) are going to have syntax highlighting. Yes, SubEthaEdit does seem pretty good for Python (I actually use it for Lingo too.) > > -bob Thank you for the input! -- Troy Rollins RPSystems, Ltd. www.rpsystems.net ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] IDE for wxPython
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Troy, If wxPython is the toolkit you settle on, check out Stani's Python Editor (SPE): it's built with wxPython and is a nice overall package. The core IDE includes an editor and syntax checker, but it also includes ~ wxGlade (a GUI designer), Kiki (regular expressions), and some other goodies. I have just become the Mac maintainer for it and have a package available at http://www.wordtech-software.com/spe.html . There's a new version just out, which I haven't updated yet, but hope to in the next day or so. If you're interested in PyQt, I also have a binary installer of that, including the Eric3 IDE--it's very nice and somewhat more mature than SPE--at http://www.wordtech-software.com/pyqt-mac.html Welcome! Cheers, Kevin Walzer, PhD WordTech Software--Open Source Applications and Packages for OS X http://www.wordtech-software.com http://www.smallbizmac.com http://www.kevin-walzer.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCCV6zJmdQs+6YVcoRAk6eAJ9FTqwSxcNCzjSdV8/PeCnzAATdPACfVqxs YIeH/XCyx/j+uZ7pQAD14Xg= =CgDs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Feb 8, 2005, at 7:40 PM, Troy Rollins wrote: On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:59:46 -0500, Bob Ippolito <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:46 PM, Troy Rollins wrote: cohesive toolset. There are thousands of individual parts and pieces, lots of semi-working IDEs and debuggers... Welcome to free software? Ha. Fair enough. I guess my point is mostly that Python seems pretty mature, and yet still manages to be scattered. I realize that the best thing would be for me to take the task on myself, but I'm barely versed enough yet to run packageManager... and frankly don't even know if that is the best way to manage all the parts and pieces. Probably because most of the Python world isn't developing GUI applications (though seems to be a big swing in this direction). Also, Mac OS X has only been around a few years and there aren't many people working on making it better (though I'm sure there are lots of people using it), so you can't really expect a best of breed solution just yet. I wouldn't really recommend doing much with PackageManager, it's an OK way to get started, but it has a lot of problems and its packages aren't up to date (at least mine aren't, I no longer maintain my repository). Your best bet is to learn how to build packages from source (usually "python setup.py install"), and/or use the binary installers provided for several popular packages (wxPython, PyObjC, PIL, matplotlib). PyObjC (via py2app) ships with a little "PackageInstaller" application that will create Apple Installer packages out of most packages and install them.. simply drop a setup.py or a directory containing setup.py on top of it. PackageInstaller should be installed to /Developer/Python/py2app (or something close to that). If it fails to work, it probably won't provide any useful output, but most packages should work. 1) Python 2) An IDE and debugger (Xcode?) 3) A GUI toolkit (wxWidgets?) I'd highly recommend PyObjC if cross-platform isn't an immediate goal. Other than that, wxPython seems to be the default, but you'll probably have to fight with it to do what you want. I've looked at this, and it looks as though it will allow the use of Interface Builder for GUI, driven by Python. While that is only a Mac solution, it may be a great route to get started with. So, I take it that I don't have to use Xcode for the code writing...? No, Xcode can not provide you with any more than syntax highlighting. Debugging is not an option beyond interacting with pdb on a console (same as you would from Terminal). It's possible to write such a feature, but there is no public API for doing so, so nobody is likely to do it. Fair enough, then Xcode is out, unless it is required for PyObjc. PyObjC has no dependency on Xcode. It ships with Xcode templates, but they are a little behind the times and are not the recommended way to deploy applications because they do not integrate with py2app. PyOXIDE is out there, Mac OS X native, and open source, but it might be immature (I don't have real experience with it, so I can't say). All the rest are either ancient and featureless (the MacPython IDE), or based on cross-platform toolkits and aren't very Mac-like. I have heard good things about Wing, which is a commercial IDE for Python, but only runs under X11 for Mac OS X. I've tried PyOxide, which is very promising, but doesn't seem fully stable yet. Currently, Wing seems the best equipped, but its X11 approach feels a bit like a Java app. I guess it may be the best available right now, and it is certainly more stable than the others. Speaking of Java, there's also Eclipse, which has Python support. I've never done more than start the thing though. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] IDE for wxPython
If you try SPE, I'd be very interested to hear your results. It's beautiful, and very extensive. But I have not been able to make it work. (The same has been true for me with wxGlade. It may be my fault, or the fault of my system.) Charles Hartman Professor of English, Poet in Residence http://cherry.conncoll.edu/cohar http://villex.blogspot.com On Feb 8, 2005, at 7:52 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Troy, If wxPython is the toolkit you settle on, check out Stani's Python Editor (SPE): it's built with wxPython and is a nice overall package. The core IDE includes an editor and syntax checker, but it also includes ~ wxGlade (a GUI designer), Kiki (regular expressions), and some other goodies. I have just become the Mac maintainer for it and have a package available at http://www.wordtech-software.com/spe.html . There's a new version just out, which I haven't updated yet, but hope to in the next day or so. If you're interested in PyQt, I also have a binary installer of that, including the Eric3 IDE--it's very nice and somewhat more mature than SPE--at http://www.wordtech-software.com/pyqt-mac.html Welcome! Cheers, Kevin Walzer, PhD WordTech Software--Open Source Applications and Packages for OS X http://www.wordtech-software.com http://www.smallbizmac.com http://www.kevin-walzer.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFCCV6zJmdQs+6YVcoRAk6eAJ9FTqwSxcNCzjSdV8/PeCnzAATdPACfVqxs YIeH/XCyx/j+uZ7pQAD14Xg= =CgDs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
Bob Ippolito wrote: Also, Mac OS X has only been around a few years and there aren't many people working on making it better (though I'm sure there are lots of people using it), so you can't really expect a best of breed solution just yet. True, but frankly, the IDE situation is not that much better on Linux or Windows. Speaking of Java, there's also Eclipse, which has Python support. Has anyone else tried this? I'm still looking for the holy grail of the same IDE on OS-X, Linux and WindowsEclipse looks promising. Troy Rollins wrote: Ha. Fair enough. I guess my point is mostly that Python seems pretty mature, and yet still manages to be scattered. Well, C and C++ are pretty mature, but if want scattered pieces...Remember, Python is a language, not a development environment, and not a commercial product. And these are good things. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/OR&R/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
Probably because most of the Python world isn't developing GUI applications (though seems to be a big swing in this direction). As a counterpoint, there are approximately 30,000 downloads of wxPython for each version. wxPython is typically used by developers and the packaged apps are used by the end users, with the latter not being reflected in the downloads. https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=10718 Mac OS X has only been around a few years and there aren't many people working on making it better (though I'm sure there are lots of people using it), so you can't really expect a best of breed solution just yet. There was, and still is to a certain degree a relative high cost barrier of entry for doing MacOS stuff, especially for developers who want to support multiple platforms. The Mac mini has helped, but the lack of virtualisation software still hinders. Apple also has around 5% market share of the desktop which means when people are deciding where to allocate their time, they have to think real hard about supporting Apple. Roger ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: IDE for wxPython
> If wxPython is the toolkit you settle on, check out Stani's Python > Editor (SPE): it's built with wxPython and is a nice overall package. > The core IDE includes an editor and syntax checker, but it also includes > ~ wxGlade (a GUI designer), Kiki (regular expressions), and some other > goodies. I have just become the Mac maintainer for it and have a package > available at http://www.wordtech-software.com/spe.html . There's a new > version just out, which I haven't updated yet, but hope to in the next > day or so. Thanks, I've tried this tool, and even got the wordtech binary (at different times). It looks to be pretty close, but still has some problems, though I wasn't logging them, mostly just installing, running, quick feature evaluation, moving on... I'll be interested to see the update. > > If you're interested in PyQt, I also have a binary installer of that, > including the Eric3 IDE--it's very nice and somewhat more mature than > SPE--at http://www.wordtech-software.com/pyqt-mac.html Yes, I've seen that too, and it is an interesting idea, but IIRC Trolltech QT is quite expensive, no? Once Python takes its part in paying the bills, I'll be more able to look at that stuff. Currently, my company makes virtually ALL of our income off of Director and Flash, but I'm getting tired of having my wagon hitched quite so tightly to Macromedia. I need to know that I have open source options... > > Welcome! Thank you. I'll apologize in advance for being a pest, but eventually I hope to contribute something. Incidentally, I think wordtech is doing a good job of making binary installers availble. That is important to us Mac users who have been shielded from terminal syntax for most of our lives! While I love the fact that we have a unix terminal now, I still don't know my way around it very well yet. Now Lingo... that I know. ;-) -- Troy Rollins www.rpsystems.net ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Feb 8, 2005, at 22:12, Roger Binns wrote: Mac OS X has only been around a few years and there aren't many people working on making it better (though I'm sure there are lots of people using it), so you can't really expect a best of breed solution just yet. There was, and still is to a certain degree a relative high cost barrier of entry for doing MacOS stuff, especially for developers who want to support multiple platforms. The Mac mini has helped, but the lack of virtualisation software still hinders. Apple also has around 5% market share of the desktop which means when people are deciding where to allocate their time, they have to think real hard about supporting Apple. This is a very valid point, but since when has that really mattered to people writing open source software? Windows certainly doesn't seem to have more support from the open source community than anything else. As a counter-point, deploying software on Mac OS X is cheap and fast. You save god knows how much time and money in development and testing (especially testing), so you have much higher profit margins. Virtualization software is useful (and I'd love it to death if it was around), but I've found it to be rarely necessary for Mac OS X development. I only have to use 10.2 when testing, and rarely have to make any changes to accommodate it. MacOnLinux showed some promise a while ago, but it doesn't seem to be actively developed these days and it didn't work well last I tried it. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
> Well, whenever I have to use wxPython, that's how it feels. I > definitely recommend it over Tkinter, pyGTK, and PyQT, though. Hmmm. I like portable applications, so am usually forced to write UIs in Java Swing. But when I do use Python, I prefer PyGTK; I think the toolkit is better designed, provides more modern UI concepts, and more flexible. But I agree it's a real pain to install -- too many independent sub-package dependencies. And as far as I can tell, the two projects aimed at porting GTK+ to Carbon or Cocoa have both died. Bill ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Fink, DarwinPorts vs py2app
Chris Barker wrote: I really think we can get a complete set of OS-X friendly packages out for all to use. it's really not all that hard, once you've got the tricks figured out. We'll have a MUCH easier time getting folks to use python on OS-X if we have nice friendly binaries for them to install. By the way, what is the status of Package Manger, and the two repositories (Jack's and Bob's) Are they being maintained? should I submit matplotlib to them? If anyone want to help with my SciPy on OS-X project, please let me know. There is some real momentum in the NumPy/SciPy crowd to make SciPy easier to install right now. Scipy is actually one of the easier packages for me to bdist_mpkg up. OTOH, I've been building scipy regularly for *years* now. http://www.scipy.org/wikis/featurerequests/MacEnthon I was hoping to have some beta packages out this week, but personal annoyances are probably going to push it out of the way right now. -- Robert Kern [EMAIL PROTECTED] "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high Are the graves of dreams allowed to die." -- Richard Harter ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
This is a very valid point, but since when has that really mattered to people writing open source software? Windows certainly doesn't seem to have more support from the open source community than anything else. http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=418 As a counter-point, deploying software on Mac OS X is cheap and fast. You save god knows how much time and money in development and testing (especially testing), so you have much higher profit margins. It doesn't matter how cheap and fast it is for 5% of the market. If you look at open source graphical toolkits that support at least two platforms, you won't find any that started on the Mac. These are the ones I know of that can be used from Python and where they started. - QT (Unix) - GTK (Unix) - wxWidgets (Windows) - Tk (Unix) - Fltk (Unix) - Fox (Unix) Consequently the Mac versions of these (if supported at all) is often not as good as the original platform. That results in a bit of a chicken and egg problem. There is no/little Mac support by other developers because the toolkits are poor, and the toolkits don't improve because noone uses them. Fortunately it just takes some sustained efforts, even just bug reporting and things get better. wxWidgets has gotten a lot better although there are still holes. For the OP, one choice is to try and help improve a toolkit at the same time as doing their own project. It will end up improving things for many more developers and users. Virtualization software is useful (and I'd love it to death if it was around), but I've found it to be rarely necessary for Mac OS X development. It solves many configuration management and testing issues. It also lets the developer use the machine. For example I can't use the Apple Addressbook or Calendar programs for my real data. I fill them with all sorts of test data. (Fast user switching sort of helps but brings other issues). And you really need virtualisation when you have to deal with versioning issues of core system components or the OS itself. For BitPim we have to do seperate 10.2 and 10.3 builds, and there are now all sorts of 10.2 issues that aren't addressed. When Tiger comes out things will get even worse as developers will have to decide which version to make their primary supported OS version. QEMU has some support for emulating a PPC system. Maybe that will work in the future. Roger ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Feb 9, 2005, at 12:07 AM, Roger Binns wrote: This is a very valid point, but since when has that really mattered to people writing open source software? Windows certainly doesn't seem to have more support from the open source community than anything else. http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=418 Yeah, exactly. There's not even twice as many Windows projects as Mac OS X projects, and far more Linux projects that Windows projects. These numbers aren't very good anyway, NetBSD's pkgsrc has over 5300 packages, and there are 204 marked NetBSD on sourceforge! As a counter-point, deploying software on Mac OS X is cheap and fast. You save god knows how much time and money in development and testing (especially testing), so you have much higher profit margins. It doesn't matter how cheap and fast it is for 5% of the market. Sure it does, if you release OS X first it can fund Windows development and testing. Worked fine for us. If you look at open source graphical toolkits that support at least two platforms, you won't find any that started on the Mac. These are the ones I know of that can be used from Python and where they started. - QT (Unix) - GTK (Unix) - wxWidgets (Windows) - Tk (Unix) - Fltk (Unix) - Fox (Unix) Consequently the Mac versions of these (if supported at all) is often not as good as the original platform. That results in a bit of a chicken and egg problem. There is no/little Mac support by other developers because the toolkits are poor, and the toolkits don't improve because noone uses them. I think we're probably going to have real GNUStep support for PyObjC sometime in the next few months.. though I'm not sure whether the NeXT roots count as Mac or not. Fortunately it just takes some sustained efforts, even just bug reporting and things get better. wxWidgets has gotten a lot better although there are still holes. For the OP, one choice is to try and help improve a toolkit at the same time as doing their own project. It will end up improving things for many more developers and users. That's definitely an option with any open source dependency :) -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On 8-Feb-05, at 9:07 PM, Roger Binns wrote: - QT (Unix) - GTK (Unix) - wxWidgets (Windows) - Tk (Unix) - Fltk (Unix) - Fox (Unix) Of course there are also: - Swing (Unix) - Mozilla/XUL Runner (???) - GnuStep (Unix) [This lets you use most of the OS X UI on Unix and Windows] - PyGame (Unix?) - OpenGL (and PyUI wrapper) - Whatever the Eclipse widget layer is called - etc. What you use depends largely on what your needs are. If you're windows developers who want to port to Mac, wx is your friend. If you develop in Smalltalk, Squeak brings it's own UI wherever you go. If you want to develop kick-ass Mac apps, PyObjC is the only game in town (in my opinion). If you want to be all things to all people, I'd suggest taking a good long hard look at Mozilla and XUL (one of their goals is to support Python as a first-class language for XUL-based applications). --Dethe Ninety percent of the technology hasn't even been developed yet. --Tim Armstrong, Google smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
Yeah, exactly. There's not even twice as many Windows projects as Mac OS X projects, and far more Linux projects that Windows projects. Note that it didn't include Windows 98 or the generic Win32 category (trying to categorise a project on SourceForge is a real pain!) It doesn't matter how cheap and fast it is for 5% of the market. Sure it does, if you release OS X first it can fund Windows development and testing. Worked fine for us. A counterpoint (see 1/3 of the way in) http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog51.html wxPython certainly goes a decent amount of the way towards his underlying message. And MacOS is on a nice uptick since that was written. This is all just proof of the network effect and what it takes to overcome it (perseverence). Some other food for thought: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog17.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Platforms.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog20.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog52.html It is all our interest to make Mac a better platform and to make it very easy to write code that just works on Mac and elsewhere. One of the things I am proud of in BitPim is the almost equal(*) seamless support of all platforms. As a developer, operating systems and APIs matter to me. But as a user, they are irrelevant. You want programs to just work on whatever is connected to your mouse, keyboard and screen. (*) The Mac is the least equal due to wxWidgets and me not being able to get a reasonably priced Mac. The Mac mini fixed the latter and OSAF paid for some of the former. I think we're probably going to have real GNUStep support for PyObjC sometime in the next few months.. though I'm not sure whether the NeXT roots count as Mac or not. I did have it in my draft email, but couldn't find suitable Python bindings. I'd be happy to count it as Mac. Which incidentally is one of the annoying things come fresh to Mac as a developer. There is all this legacy NS crap! It is *nowhere* near as bad as the legacy in Windows though, or even the Linuxisms :-) Roger ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python newbies
On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:50 AM, Roger Binns wrote: Yeah, exactly. There's not even twice as many Windows projects as Mac OS X projects, and far more Linux projects that Windows projects. Note that it didn't include Windows 98 or the generic Win32 category (trying to categorise a project on SourceForge is a real pain!) Even still, given how wrong it is for NetBSD, I find it hard to assign any weight at all to what sourceforge's numbers are. It doesn't matter how cheap and fast it is for 5% of the market. Sure it does, if you release OS X first it can fund Windows development and testing. Worked fine for us. A counterpoint (see 1/3 of the way in) http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog51.html wxPython certainly goes a decent amount of the way towards his underlying message. And MacOS is on a nice uptick since that was written. This is all just proof of the network effect and what it takes to overcome it (perseverence). That article is four and a half years old, and it doesn't account for a lot of things. In our case, it was roughly 10x easier to hit the Mac platform first and it made a lot more sense given the startup capital and time we wanted to spend on launching the product. It's also a lot easier to get press for Mac software, for whatever reason, where we'd have to spend even more money marketing the Windows version to get it out there. The Mac version paid for the Windows version, threw free press in our direction, and got us a publishing deal. In hindsight, I'd have done it the same way. I can't really say whether we have more Windows users or Mac users now, because our software doesn't phone home and both versions ship together. There is a disproportionate amount of support requests on the Windows side, but that's because it more or less Just Works on the Mac, where there seems to be some weirdness on some obscure Windows configurations that we can't reproduce (unfortunately we're at the mercy of some other software and hardware for this product). Some other food for thought: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog17.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Platforms.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog20.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog52.html It is all our interest to make Mac a better platform and to make it very easy to write code that just works on Mac and elsewhere. One of the things I am proud of in BitPim is the almost equal(*) seamless support of all platforms. As a developer, operating systems and APIs matter to me. But as a user, they are irrelevant. You want programs to just work on whatever is connected to your mouse, keyboard and screen. (*) The Mac is the least equal due to wxWidgets and me not being able to get a reasonably priced Mac. The Mac mini fixed the latter and OSAF paid for some of the former. The user also doesn't care if the UI code isn't shared between all platforms as long as they're maintained. The Tkinter GUI and the PyObjC GUI share a bunch of code (as much as is reasonable). The Tkinter GUI actually has code in it to emulate a bunch of Mac-isms and it reads resources directly out of its sibling Mac OS X bundle (metadata, localization, and the application's data). I'd have used wx, but Tkinter was easier for this and wasn't as big. I think we're probably going to have real GNUStep support for PyObjC sometime in the next few months.. though I'm not sure whether the NeXT roots count as Mac or not. I did have it in my draft email, but couldn't find suitable Python bindings. I'd be happy to count it as Mac. Which incidentally is one of the annoying things come fresh to Mac as a developer. There is all this legacy NS crap! It is *nowhere* near as bad as the legacy in Windows though, or even the Linuxisms :-) NS is just a namespace.. Not much of it *feels* legacy :) At least they're consistent. -bob ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
