Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
On 12/03/11 17:20, Dave Park wrote: I just want to repeat that the idea of an FPGA-based QL is not mine and belongs to Peter Graf - the only reason I found it necessary to mention his project was to establish that he has already done some work on a project of this type - informally. As a non-hardware person - I don't (yet) understand electronics, and from the sidelines, should we (as a group) not therefore be helping Peter to finish his kit rather than talking/thinking about another? Are we a community? Just a thought. It's perfectly possible that Peter may not want any help, but surely we could ask/offer where we are willing and have the skills? Cheers, Norman. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Absolutely Lee - Back to the QL- - Original Message - From: Norman Dunbar To: ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva On 12/03/11 17:20, Dave Park wrote: I just want to repeat that the idea of an FPGA-based QL is not mine and belongs to Peter Graf - the only reason I found it necessary to mention his project was to establish that he has already done some work on a project of this type - informally. As a non-hardware person - I don't (yet) understand electronics, and from the sidelines, should we (as a group) not therefore be helping Peter to finish his kit rather than talking/thinking about another? Are we a community? Just a thought. It's perfectly possible that Peter may not want any help, but surely we could ask/offer where we are willing and have the skills? Cheers, Norman. ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Am Sonntag, den 13.03.2011, 09:21 + schrieb Norman Dunbar: On 12/03/11 17:20, Dave Park wrote: I just want to repeat that the idea of an FPGA-based QL is not mine and belongs to Peter Graf - the only reason I found it necessary to mention his project was to establish that he has already done some work on a project of this type - informally. As a non-hardware person - I don't (yet) understand electronics, and from the sidelines, should we (as a group) not therefore be helping Peter to finish his kit rather than talking/thinking about another? Are we a community? Just a thought. It's perfectly possible that Peter may not want any help, but surely we could ask/offer where we are willing and have the skills? Definitely. It makes no sense to waste skills in more than one project. Should Peter want/need help, I'm sure there's hidden talents in the community. Cheers, Tobias ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Norman Dunbar nor...@dunbar-it.co.ukwrote: On 12/03/11 17:20, Dave Park wrote: I just want to repeat that the idea of an FPGA-based QL is not mine and belongs to Peter Graf - the only reason I found it necessary to mention his project was to establish that he has already done some work on a project of this type - informally. As a non-hardware person - I don't (yet) understand electronics, and from the sidelines, should we (as a group) not therefore be helping Peter to finish his kit rather than talking/thinking about another? Are we a community? Just a thought. It's perfectly possible that Peter may not want any help, but surely we could ask/offer where we are willing and have the skills? I respectfully 100% disagree. :) When a community leaves everything to one individual, any number of problems can arise. Abandonment, accident, distraction, personal matters. Also, often the individual has their own goals that may not coincide with the needs or best interests of the community. It's also not like there would be a dilution of effort - Peter seems to prefer working alone anyway - so those others who have skills certainly shouldn't be discouraged from using them just because someone _maybe_ has a project... Suggesting people shouldn't even talk about ideas because someone _maybe_ has a project of undefined goal and specification that they haven't publicly discussed with anyone, and which may not surface for several more years... When there are people interested in developing something, that is THE time for discussing ideas and seeing who can contribute what part, even if nothing comes from it. The exercise is still important. Respectfully, Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] on behalf of Lee Privett [lee.priv...@gmail.com] Sent: 13 March 2011 09:41 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva Absolutely Lee - Back to the QL- - Original Message - From: Norman Dunbar To: ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva On 12/03/11 17:20, Dave Park wrote: I just want to repeat that the idea of an FPGA-based QL is not mine and belongs to Peter Graf - the only reason I found it necessary to mention his project was to establish that he has already done some work on a project of this type - informally. As a non-hardware person - I don't (yet) understand electronics, and from the sidelines, should we (as a group) not therefore be helping Peter to finish his kit rather than talking/thinking about another? Are we a community? Just a thought. It's perfectly possible that Peter may not want any help, but surely we could ask/offer where we are willing and have the skills? As a hardware guy, I would say the FPGA route is the way forward. Costs will continually drop and speed will increase. The VHDL design will be transportable to newer and faster FPGA's and is therefore future proof. One possible boot up mode could be classic QL with Trump card and simulated floppies (SD). Video output could be DVI. I really hope Peter could do this. Cheers Malcolm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Hi Dave, I respectfully 100% disagree. :) No worries! When a community leaves everything to one individual, any number of problems can arise. Abandonment, accident, distraction, personal matters. That was my point too - although, unmentioned. If peter has been working for a while he may be losing interest, or motivation etc. My suggestion was to **offer** assistance. I mentioned that peter may have his reasons for not asking for help, that's fine. But we should at least offer - if we are able to. Also, often the individual has their own goals that may not coincide with the needs or best interests of the community. Agreed. SNIP Suggesting people shouldn't even talk about ideas because someone _maybe_ has a project of undefined goal and specification that they haven't publicly discussed with anyone, and which may not surface for several more years... I never suggested that we shouldn't talk about things - I enjoy the hardware discussions even though most of the time I'm clueless - I was merely suggesting that if a (similar) project to what was being discussed was actually in progress, then maybe we should consider cooperating. SNIP Respectfully, And taken as such. ;-) Cheers, Norman. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Am Samstag, den 12.03.2011, 07:20 + schrieb Adrian Ives: Dave, That's all very nice and would be an absolutely fantastic piece of hardware but it's very complex and likely to be expensive. I would have thought that a better use of the development cost and time would be an FPGA-based QL clone running at 80MHZ with 1GB RAM and onboard USB3, SATA and HDMI. SPI otoh is a very simple protocol and the only hardware needed are four I/O lines for Clock, In, Out and Slave Select. When I finally get some time I will look at the spare I/O provided on the superHermes to see if that could be used for this purpose. Adrian Adrian, Dave, while this might sound a bit naive, I doubt whether there would be much HW involved when trying to build a bit-bang interface to SPI. SPI is such dead simple that you could connect CLOCK to an address line, MISO to the data bus and MOSI to another address line (Suitable buffering and 5V/3.3V conversion would have to be provided, The ROMCS line needs to be married with the rest of the pins through some minimal logic). The rest would be a matter of clever software. The QL ROM port already is quite de-coupled from the Bus with complete address decoding so that this could actually work. What I would really like would be a small board connecting to the ROM slot, carrying a small CPLD for the decoding, an AVR controller, probably an Ethernet chip and an SD socket, maybe minimal USB hardware to connect USB mouse and keyboard. Dave, I like your idea with an FGPA based QL very much as it has lots of opportunities in it, but I think it's well beyond the capabilities of the current (small) QL scene, both regarding to Hardware and Software support. Start small! There's time for the more ambitious projects later. Tobias ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 4:52 AM, Tobias Fröschle tobias.froesc...@t-online.de wrote: Dave, I like your idea with an FGPA based QL very much as it has lots of opportunities in it, but I think it's well beyond the capabilities of the current (small) QL scene, both regarding to Hardware and Software support. Start small! There's time for the more ambitious projects later. I just want to repeat that the idea of an FPGA-based QL is not mine and belongs to Peter Graf - the only reason I found it necessary to mention his project was to establish that he has already done some work on a project of this type - informally. Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
[Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Well it wasn't as bad as I had feared, but not as simple as I had hoped. And I'm certainly not going to mention the still unsolved mystery of the mm.alchp vectored call that reported success but actually zeroed out an entirely different area of the common heap, thus trashing the in-memory copy of the map! :( The driver is now running on a bog standard QL, albeit somewhat painfully. The crappy QL serial port is unfit for use above 4800 baud because it insists upon two stop bits @ 9600 and the USBWiz only sends one. Even if it did send two I doubt if it would work reliably. Really, superHermes is going to be a must . unless you like accessing a USB hard drive at the speed of a 1980s dial-up connection, that is! Public beta 1, code name Logopolis, is on course to be released on Monday. You will need a USBWiz, RS232 to TTL converter and some kind of regulated 5V supply for the electronics if you want to try it. I will send download links to those who have already volunteered. This has been a long and painful project, fighting every step of the way against cross-platform inconsistencies and serial hardware that was barely fit for purpose in 1984, let alone 2011. I really don't exaggerate when I say that I wish I'd never started it in the first place! For example: Under Minerva with the standard serial hardware you are forced to run the installable Queue Manager add-in, because it can't handle zero timeout serial I/O calls in supervisor mode. This probably happens with JS JM, too . although I have only tested JM with an Aurora/SGC superHermes. otoh SMSQ doesn't need the Queue Manager at all, but it can use it as a performance enhancement! SMSQ lets code called from the scheduler do mt.cjob traps, JM crashes if you try and do that. And so on . The higher up the hardware/software tree you go, the better things get. Best configuration is SMSQ on modern hardware with decent high speed serial ports. Ser-USB runs happily under the current versions of QPC2 and Q-emuLator . although, perversely, you will need a USB to serial adapter if your PC doesn't have a built-in serial port! Status: The current version supports SD cards and USB storage devices formatted as native QDOS. Multiple partitions are supported (but as yet there is no partition editor written). There are also hooks for supporting multiple LUNs on USB storage devices but at present no mechanism to mount them. Ser-USB *should* be able to mount any QLW1 format hard drive connected to a USB to IDE adapter, but I haven't had the opportunity to test this. Because all I/O is routed across a single serial connection, the driver is single tasking, non re-entrant, but this hardly affects performance as the biggest hit comes from the serial connection speed. The code is ROM-able, but it's currently too big to fit in a 16K EPROM. Also, it shouldn't be too hard to whip out the USBWiz Operations Layer from the driver and slap in an alternative hardware layer for something other than a Ser-USB at some future date. But that's another story. btw If anyone out there (like, for example, Dave Park) would like to build an SPI interface for the QL that would significantly increase performance! Adrian ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Adrian Ives adr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: btw If anyone out there (like, for example, Dave Park) would like to build an SPI interface for the QL that would significantly increase performance! I can do the hardware if someone else can do the driver. :) Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Yes please. I'll do the driver. :) How about a board that plugs into the ROM port and has the necessary logic to implement the four wire SPI interface for a single slave device (namely the USBWiz). The board would also have a header socket to mount the USBWiz module on. Job done. -Original Message- From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of Dave Park Sent: 12 March 2011 01:26 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Adrian Ives adr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: btw If anyone out there (like, for example, Dave Park) would like to build an SPI interface for the QL that would significantly increase performance! I can do the hardware if someone else can do the driver. :) Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
With a USB/multi-card reader, it should be possible to create a QDOS file system on a Compact Flash card. I've scrounged about 13 512MB CF cards that are no longer needed at work. I can send them to someone in the UK if someone can use them. I also have two unopened boxes of TDK ED disks (10 per box) that I bought in 1995 when a local store in Dayton was selling them cheap. I no longer have a need for them. They too are free to who ever can use them. Tim Swenson ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Adrian Ives adr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: Yes please. I'll do the driver. :) How about a board that plugs into the ROM port and has the necessary logic to implement the four wire SPI interface for a single slave device (namely the USBWiz). The board would also have a header socket to mount the USBWiz module on. Job done. When you say ROM port I brace myself. Knowing the trickery involved in getting the RomDisq to work and the addressing gymnastics required... The hardware and driver need to be developed hand-in-hand. I'd rather work on a standard expansion card that could take submitted multiple interfaces from many people and implement them in a single board. I was thinking of it having some flash for ROM images, two daisy-chained SPI ports, two proper serial ports from a MAX232, 16 buffered/registered GPIO lines, an SDHC port/socket - things like that. Also, it could have a large flash bank on it, access through a mild hackery of the RomDisq driver, etc... People could buy the basic PCB, then simply add those interfaces they need... This is a project I plan to begin when I have a suitable venue for a hardware forum. (If one isn't available soon, I may install phpBB and start one myself)... I look at things like this and suddenly feel very naive... Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva
Dave, That's all very nice and would be an absolutely fantastic piece of hardware but it's very complex and likely to be expensive. I would have thought that a better use of the development cost and time would be an FPGA-based QL clone running at 80MHZ with 1GB RAM and onboard USB3, SATA and HDMI. SPI otoh is a very simple protocol and the only hardware needed are four I/O lines for Clock, In, Out and Slave Select. When I finally get some time I will look at the spare I/O provided on the superHermes to see if that could be used for this purpose. Adrian -Original Message- From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of Dave Park Sent: 12 March 2011 01:57 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Ser-USB on Minerva On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Adrian Ives adr...@acanthis.co.uk wrote: Yes please. I'll do the driver. :) How about a board that plugs into the ROM port and has the necessary logic to implement the four wire SPI interface for a single slave device (namely the USBWiz). The board would also have a header socket to mount the USBWiz module on. Job done. When you say ROM port I brace myself. Knowing the trickery involved in getting the RomDisq to work and the addressing gymnastics required... The hardware and driver need to be developed hand-in-hand. I'd rather work on a standard expansion card that could take submitted multiple interfaces from many people and implement them in a single board. I was thinking of it having some flash for ROM images, two daisy-chained SPI ports, two proper serial ports from a MAX232, 16 buffered/registered GPIO lines, an SDHC port/socket - things like that. Also, it could have a large flash bank on it, access through a mild hackery of the RomDisq driver, etc... People could buy the basic PCB, then simply add those interfaces they need... This is a project I plan to begin when I have a suitable venue for a hardware forum. (If one isn't available soon, I may install phpBB and start one myself)... I look at things like this and suddenly feel very naive... Dave ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
