Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
In a message dated 29/10/04 22:21:48 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm just saying that frozen embryos from an IVF clinic should be treated with respect. If I "owned" frozen embryos, I would rather see some good come from them than knowing they were just destroyed. IMHO Hi Ctrlaltdel, I totally agree with you (I've been a bit blonde lately! hehe) Embryos are to precious to let go to waste! Love Smurf xxx
Re: Fwd: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Hi Smurf, I'm just saying that frozen embryos from an IVF clinicshould betreated with respect. If I "owned" frozen embryos, I would rather see some good come from them than knowing they were just destroyed.IMHO With Love, CtrlAltDel aka DaveC4/5 Complete - 28 Years PostTexas, USA[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 26/10/04 22:02:36 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree with your statement, "I don't see that abortions are the same as IVF." But what about the frozen embryos that are not used in the IVF clinics? I'm just asking why so much attention is put on using embryos in research (to hopefully give someone a better life) and so little is being said about the 400,000 frozen embryos in IVF clinics that were reported in the US in 2002. With that many unused embryos there will most certainly be some destroyed, but when an embryo is destroyed in research there are many voices sounding the moral and ethical alarms.! Hi Ctrlaltdel,I think that more attention does need to be focussed on the fact that so many embryos are being wasted. Sure this is research, therefore some are going to get wasted but surely there are ways around limiting the amount that are?! The only reason why we have the medications and treatments that we have today is because of the amount of reasearch carried out in the past. I can never understand hwo people can see research as being wrong...?Hope your well?Love Smurf xxx ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT)From: "David K. Kelmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being ChristianTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Smurf, I agree with your statement, "I don't see that abortions are the same as IVF." But what about thefrozen embryos that are not used in the IVF clinics? I'm just asking why so much attention is put on using embryos in research (to hopefully give someone a better life) and so little isbeing said about the 400,000 frozen embryos in IVF clinics that were reported in the US in2002. With that many unused embryos there will most certainly be some destroyed, but when an embryo is destroyed in research there are many voices sounding the moral and ethical alarms. With Love, CtrlAltDel aka DaveC4/5 Complete - 28 Years PostTexas, USA[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 19/10/2004 21:07:50 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Smurf, Regardless of who is elected President next month, here is an issue that needs to be examined. If, asthe American Life League, Inc. believes, aneggcollected froma woman's body and then combined with a man's spermand frozen is human life, or, as others believe,thatthe resulting frozenembryos are simply the seed that wheninserted into the woman's bodygrows into a human life,the issue needs to be debated. The voices now raised onall sidesin the stem-cell research issue cannot ignore theuselessdestruction of hundreds of thousands of frozen cells each year while so much attention gets paid to some 60 cell lines.Life, or potential life, either way these cells deserve a better ending than what they're getting now. Hi CtrlAltDel, When it comes to IVF I have completely different views, I don't see that abortions are the same as IVF, completely different in fact! Personally I think that IVF is a really good idea, extremely good idea (although I do believe that the man should have some say in weather his sperm is used or not - there's been huge controversary about it over here) especially when it comes to SCIs. Although the fact that some of the cells are wasted is bad. If embryos and cells are taken then they should all be used - end of story. Letting them go to waste is the same as letting someone die. Why do some of them get wasted though? Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Hi Smurf, I agree with your statement, "I don't see that abortions are the same as IVF." But what about thefrozen embryos that are not used in the IVF clinics? I'm just asking why so much attention is put on using embryos in research (to hopefully give someone a better life) and so little isbeing said about the 400,000 frozen embryos in IVF clinics that were reported in the US in2002. With that many unused embryos there will most certainly be some destroyed, but when an embryo is destroyed in research there are many voices sounding the moral and ethical alarms. With Love, CtrlAltDel aka DaveC4/5 Complete - 28 Years PostTexas, USA[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 19/10/2004 21:07:50 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Smurf, Regardless of who is elected President next month, here is an issue that needs to be examined. If, asthe American Life League, Inc. believes, aneggcollected froma woman's body and then combined with a man's spermand frozen is human life, or, as others believe,thatthe resulting frozenembryos are simply the seed that wheninserted into the woman's bodygrows into a human life,the issue needs to be debated. The voices now raised onall sidesin the stem-cell research issue cannot ignore theuselessdestruction of hundreds of thousands of frozen cells each year while so much attention gets paid to some 60 cell lines.Life, or potential life, either way these cells deserve a better ending than what they're getting now. Hi CtrlAltDel, When it comes to IVF I have completely different views, I don't see that abortions are the same as IVF, completely different in fact! Personally I think that IVF is a really good idea, extremely good idea (although I do believe that the man should have some say in weather his sperm is used or not - there's been huge controversary about it over here) especially when it comes to SCIs. Although the fact that some of the cells are wasted is bad. If embryos and cells are taken then they should all be used - end of story. Letting them go to waste is the same as letting someone die. Why do some of them get wasted though? Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Hi Smurf, Regardless of who is elected President next month, here is an issue that needs to be examined. If, asthe American Life League, Inc. believes, aneggcollected froma woman's body and then combined with a man's spermand frozen is human life, or, as others believe,thatthe resulting frozenembryos are simply the seed that wheninserted into the woman's bodygrows into a human life,the issue needs to be debated. The voices now raised onall sidesin the stem-cell research issue cannot ignore theuselessdestruction of hundreds of thousands of frozen cells each year while so much attention gets paid to some 60 cell lines.Life, or potential life, either way these cells deserve a better ending than what they're getting now. "In vitro fertilization undermines human dignity What is in vitro fertilization? "In vitro" literally means "in glass." In vitro fertilization is a process whereby human life is generated in a laboratory environment like a glass petri dish. How is in vitro fertilization carried out? In vitro fertilization begins when fertility technicians administer hormone treatments to a woman. The hormones hyper-stimulate the woman's ovaries to produce a number of eggs at one time. The eggs are collected from the woman's body and then combined with sperm. The resulting embryos are nourished in laboratory cultures and inserted into the woman's body with the hope that one embryo will successfully implant in the lining of the womb and develop. The process is very controlled and involves numerous trips to the in vitro fertilization center. How does in vitro fertilization cause the death of human embryos? The Jones Institute, one of the pioneers of in vitro fertilization, reports that only 10 to 20% of the human embryos produced by in vitro fertilization ever result in a normal pregnancy. The Centers for Disease Control estimated that in 1998, 28,000 babies were born through in vitro fertilization in the United States. This means that 140,000 - 280,000 human embryos are missing from the equation for that year alone. What happens to the rest of the embryos? Many embryos die in the transfer process since they are fragile. Some embryos are unwanted and eliminated because they are considered genetically inadequate. Some embryos are stored alive in freezers. Some embryos are simply killed as they are washed down the sink." http://www.all.org/issues/ivf.htm This is happening now. This is an issue thatmust be addressed now. The continued creation of my frozen cell will only make this issue bigger and harder to deal with. Either way the loss of this many embryos needs to be a part of thedebate. With Love, CtrlAltDel aka DaveC4/5 Complete - 28 Years PostTexas, USA[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 10/10/2004 00:44:23 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The reason Bush is anti-abortion is all political, People are brain washed into thinking he is a Christian. I am a Christian and I learned from the bible that Jesus loved us enough to give us freedom of choice. It is between a woman and God to have an abortion. The government needs to but out!! Don't get me started with all of the other issues that I and hopefully most of America have with Bush.Meredith I have to admit I have very strong views when it comes to abortion, which I believe are not to be based upon religion, more what's morally right and wrong. I personally believe that abortion is an act of murder, unless the women has been r*ped (*=a), or unless the child will be severely disabled to the point that it would have a poor quality of life. Other than that I think that if a women want's to have sex without taking the right percausions, then she should accept the result of pregnancy. We all know about the birds and the bees, and we also know how to prevent such things. That's just my personal opinion Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Pretty much here too. As a matter of fact I swear some women make a living off of it. The system is all some of these women know. They are raised by women that have babies out of wed lock. They have 5 with all different fathers. They go after them in court for child support and count on the government for what they dont receive. Stacy "People who hate you do not win unless you hate them. Then you destroy yourself" - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian In a message dated 11/10/2004 14:23:33 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, kids and single women are having babies and living off of the system. They get money to raise the baby, money off of rent, food stamps, and other things they may be eligible for. It is a shame. I think those people should be forced to give their babies up for adoption or after having a couple they should. So many of these women have 4,5 or more kids. I know a woman from back home that has 7 and doesn't work because she gets so much help. Stacy Obviously I can't speak for what it's like out in the states, but here in the uk it works out that your better of for receiving benefits right, left and centre than what you are to go out and earn a good days living. It's one thing if you physically can't, it's another thing to use pregnancy as an excuse not to do, which is something that someone I know use to do. Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
In a message dated 11/10/2004 00:18:13 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aahh, leaving it all up to the female! ? Being the devils' advocate here.NOT having sex is the best form of birth control as us 'oldies but goodies'know. We also know all about precautions. But tell that to two 15 yearolds. Obviously what is out there is not working. Parents do not take thetime to keep track of their kids, there is no discipline, no routine foryoung kids--such as a bedtime, meals cooked "at home", no positive extraactivities after school. Parents do not care.My son has a child out of wedlock now after shacking up for 2-3 years with amuch younger girl."Her" parents let an 18 year old girl move out of the house, for the "first"time, in with a guy 6 years older than she was. Three years later as theywere planning on going their own ways, she comes up pregnant. I have mether. She has ambition, is taking college courses mostly on line now, butdoes go to a claqss on campus. When she was here a couple of years ago--myson lives 2c states away--she came right out and said she wanted kids and ahouse, picket fence etc. My son has been a cook in a Country Kitchen for 4years and not making enough money to take care of himself much less a child!They have since moved closer to the colleges and he has a better job, but isstill a cook at a bar/grill and has no idea what to do as a career. Theyare taking advantage of the "single mother" thing for school funds and babyfood and medical care for the baby. Her parents have bought most of all thetoys and baby bed/play pen and all the newer things available for babiesthese days. I don't know what my son's father has done, don't want to know.I cannot afford hardly anything. They did bring him down here for me tosee, I paid for gas, they stayed at my mother's. He is a doll! But thatdoes not undo the deed. It has given my son a kick in the behind as to whatit takes to support a family, but as long as she recieves money and the babygets medical care, he is not too concerned. Somehow they have worked out aschedule where they do not need daycare.Well so much for venting and a little bit of opinion.take care,Dana and Ilsa Very true about trying to tell a couple of 15year olds about protection!!! Over here in the UK, in my area there's a new scheme running about trying to tell the 13-16yr olds the safetys of having sex. The kids are given virtual babies to look after on weekends, and the babies do everything that a real baby would do apart from move. There is a mini computer inside the babies to tell the experts how well they've done. It moniters things like how many times the head was able to fall backwards, how long it took for the parent to stop the baby crying, weather it was fed/nappy changed etc. They are a fantastic idea, and the amount of kids that's decided that they now don't want kids at all! It's just a shame that they aren't taught pratically about STI's and the consequences of them. They are probably more dangerous that falling pregnant! It would probably help if they were taught the financial side of having a baby as well. Are there any schemes like that running in the states? Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Well, kids and single women are having babies and living off of the system. They get money to raise the baby, money off of rent, food stamps, and other things they may be eligible for. It is a shame. I think those people should be forced to give their babies up for adoption or after having a couple they should. So many of these women have 4,5 or more kids. I know a woman from back home that has 7 and doesn't work because she gets so much help. Stacy "People who hate you do not win unless you hate them. Then you destroy yourself" - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:09 AM Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian In a message dated 11/10/2004 00:18:13 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aahh, leaving it all up to the female! ? Being the devils' advocate here.NOT having sex is the best form of birth control as us 'oldies but goodies'know. We also know all about precautions. But tell that to two 15 yearolds. Obviously what is out there is not working. Parents do not take thetime to keep track of their kids, there is no discipline, no routine foryoung kids--such as a bedtime, meals cooked "at home", no positive extraactivities after school. Parents do not care.My son has a child out of wedlock now after shacking up for 2-3 years with amuch younger girl."Her" parents let an 18 year old girl move out of the house, for the "first"time, in with a guy 6 years older than she was. Three years later as theywere planning on going their own ways, she comes up pregnant. I have mether. She has ambition, is taking college courses mostly on line now, butdoes go to a claqss on campus. When she was here a couple of years ago--myson lives 2c states away--she came right out and said she wanted kids and ahouse, picket fence etc. My son has been a cook in a Country Kitchen for 4years and not making enough money to take care of himself much less a child!They have since moved closer to the colleges and he has a better job, but isstill a cook at a bar/grill and has no idea what to do as a career. Theyare taking advantage of the "single mother" thing for school funds and babyfood and medical care for the baby. Her parents have bought most of all thetoys and baby bed/play pen and all the newer things available for babiesthese days. I don't know what my son's father has done, don't want to know.I cannot afford hardly anything. They did bring him down here for me tosee, I paid for gas, they stayed at my mother's. He is a doll! But thatdoes not undo the deed. It has given my son a kick in the behind as to whatit takes to support a family, but as long as she recieves money and the babygets medical care, he is not too concerned. Somehow they have worked out aschedule where they do not need daycare.Well so much for venting and a little bit of opinion.take care,Dana and Ilsa Very true about trying to tell a couple of 15year olds about protection!!! Over here in the UK, in my area there's a new scheme running about trying to tell the 13-16yr olds the safetys of having sex. The kids are given virtual babies to look after on weekends, and the babies do everything that a real baby would do apart from move. There is a mini computer inside the babies to tell the experts how well they've done. It moniters things like how many times the head was able to fall backwards, how long it took for the parent to stop the baby crying, weather it was fed/nappy changed etc. They are a fantastic idea, and the amount of kids that's decided that they now don't want kids at all! It's just a shame that they aren't taught pratically about STI's and the consequences of them. They are probably more dangerous that falling pregnant! It would probably help if they were taught the financial side of having a baby as well. Are there any schemes like that running in the states? Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
In a message dated 11/10/2004 14:23:33 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, kids and single women are having babies and living off of the system. They get money to raise the baby, money off of rent, food stamps, and other things they may be eligible for. It is a shame. I think those people should be forced to give their babies up for adoption or after having a couple they should. So many of these women have 4,5 or more kids. I know a woman from back home that has 7 and doesn't work because she gets so much help. Stacy Obviously I can't speak for what it's like out in the states, but here in the uk it works out that your better of for receiving benefits right, left and centre than what you are to go out and earn a good days living. It's one thing if you physically can't, it's another thing to use pregnancy as an excuse not to do, which is something that someone I know use to do. Love Smurf xxx
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Aahh, leaving it all up to the female! ? Being the devils' advocate here. NOT having sex is the best form of birth control as us 'oldies but goodies' know. We also know all about precautions. But tell that to two 15 year olds. Obviously what is out there is not working. Parents do not take the time to keep track of their kids, there is no discipline, no routine for young kids--such as a bedtime, meals cooked at home, no positive extra activities after school. Parents do not care. My son has a child out of wedlock now after shacking up for 2-3 years with a much younger girl. Her parents let an 18 year old girl move out of the house, for the first time, in with a guy 6 years older than she was. Three years later as they were planning on going their own ways, she comes up pregnant. I have met her. She has ambition, is taking college courses mostly on line now, but does go to a claqss on campus. When she was here a couple of years ago--my son lives 2c states away--she came right out and said she wanted kids and a house, picket fence etc. My son has been a cook in a Country Kitchen for 4 years and not making enough money to take care of himself much less a child! They have since moved closer to the colleges and he has a better job, but is still a cook at a bar/grill and has no idea what to do as a career. They are taking advantage of the single mother thing for school funds and baby food and medical care for the baby. Her parents have bought most of all the toys and baby bed/play pen and all the newer things available for babies these days. I don't know what my son's father has done, don't want to know. I cannot afford hardly anything. They did bring him down here for me to see, I paid for gas, they stayed at my mother's. He is a doll! But that does not undo the deed. It has given my son a kick in the behind as to what it takes to support a family, but as long as she recieves money and the baby gets medical care, he is not too concerned. Somehow they have worked out a schedule where they do not need daycare. Well so much for venting and a little bit of opinion. take care, Dana and Ilsa [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian In a message dated 10/10/2004 00:44:23 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The reason Bush is anti-abortion is all political, People are brain washed into thinking he is a Christian. I am a Christian and I learned from the bible that Jesus loved us enough to give us freedom of choice. It is between a woman and God to have an abortion. The government needs to but out!! Don't get me started with all of the other issues that I and hopefully most of America have with Bush. Meredith I have to admit I have very strong views when it comes to abortion, which I believe are not to be based upon religion, more what's morally right and wrong. I personally believe that abortion is an act of murder, unless the women has been r*ped (*=a), or unless the child will be severely disabled to the point that it would have a poor quality of life. Other than that I think that if a women want's to have sex without taking the right percausions, then she should accept the result of pregnancy. We all know about the birds and the bees, and we also know how to prevent such things. That's just my personal opinion Love Smurf xxx
[QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
The reason Bush is anti-abortion is all political, People are brain washed into thinking he is a Christian. I am a Christian and I learned from the bible that Jesus loved us enough to give us freedom of choice. It is between a woman and God to have an abortion. The government needs to but out!! Don't get me started with all of the other issues that I and hopefully most of America have with Bush. Meredith
Re: [QUAD-L] Re: Bush plays the game of being Christian
Thank you Meredith for your honest observation. The media blasted Kerry on his answer to the CHOICE question, too ideological. Gee, I think I prefer a president who is able to see the nuances and opinions/beliefs of others. Not to mention separation of church and state, which is the foundation for our country's constitution. I think there's a quiet revolution going on and America will surprise everyone on Nov 2nd. River On Oct 9, 2004, at 7:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The reason Bush is anti-abortion is all political, People are brain washed into thinking he is a Christian. I am a Christian and I learned from the bible that Jesus loved us enough to give us freedom of choice. It is between a woman and God to have an abortion. The government needs to but out!! Don't get me started with all of the other issues that I and hopefully most of America have with Bush. Meredith
