Re: [qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-13 Thread Eric Shelton 
On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 9:16:58 AM UTC-5, Jean-Philippe Ouellet wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> > On 2016-12-08 21:11, Jean-Philippe Ouellet wrote:
> >> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 6:37 AM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
> >>> Qubes isn't supported on VirtualBox or on Macbooks
> >>
> >> This is the first I've heard of MacBooks being "not supported".
> >>
> >
> > By "not supported," I mean that there are a lot of known problems
> > specific to Macbook compatibility, and we don't have any particular
> > commitment to changing Qubes in order to fix/circumvent those problems.
> >
> >> I know at least one person personally who is currently running
> >> Qubes on a recent (<2yo) MacBook, and it is completely usable.
> >>
> >
> > "Not supported" does not (and has never) meant "unusable" or "cannot
> > be done." I'm not sure why you would think it does. (Frankly, your
> > interpretation is uncharitable, given that I pointed out that there
> > are threads on accomplishing each one separately and that it might be
> > possible through DIY hacking.)
> 
> Err, perhaps it came across wrong. My intention was simply to claim
> from first-hand accounts that Qubes is in fact more usable on MacBooks
> than it may be given credit for :)

See this recent article, "Linux on the Mac -- state of the union":

https://lwn.net/Articles/707616/

The statement "Bringup on Macs is a challenge  Supporting new hardware 
generally takes about two years, anything older can be expected to work 
decently," matches my experience.  A consistent issue has been that ACPI tables 
often have something wrong that either Xen or Linux notices (more often Xen).  
A more recent challenge is the use of SPI for keyboard and the lack of a fully 
working driver (initial workaround: plug in a USB keyboard).

Qubes compatibility is roughly parallel with Linux compatibility (although 
Qubes lags at the bleeding edge).  Whether running Qubes or some Linux 
distribution, you often need to make changes to an "out of the box" install to 
get everything working on a Mac.  Sometimes you have to do some fairly low 
level mucking about (ranging from building additional drivers, replacing a wifi 
adapter with a Linux-friendly one, patching ACPI tables, to writing quirks for 
and rebuilding the Xen hypervisor).  Getting Qubes to even install on a Mac can 
be a challenge, and even if it installs, there is often more to be done after 
that.  In years past, I think the Bootcamp feature provided some pressure to 
maintain non-OSX compatibility, but that seems to be slipping further away with 
each Macbook generation.

I would _not_ recommend a Mac for Qubes unless: (1) someone has already shown a 
particular Mac model works with Qubes (and shared the details of how they got 
it to work); or (2) you are very comfortable with the "banging a square peg 
into a round hole" process of massaging/forcing Linux to work on a computer 
that is almost, but not quite, compatible with Linux, as you will pretty much 
have to sort it out on your own (all manner of esoteric things like: Why won't 
the installer boot and how do I deal with it?  Why is the keyboard not working? 
 Why do I only get 72 minutes of battery when MacOS gets 7 hours?  Why won't 
the display wake from sleep?  My wifi card doesn't seem to be recognized - how 
do I fix that when I don't have any networking devices?  Why isn't Vt-d 
working, although the Intel website says my CPU provides it?  How can I dual 
boot MacOS and Qubes?).  For some, I suppose (2) could count as "usable," but 
not for the vast majority of users.

Eric

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Re: [qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-10 Thread Jean-Philippe Ouellet 
On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Andrew David Wong  wrote:
> On 2016-12-08 21:11, Jean-Philippe Ouellet wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 6:37 AM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
>>> Qubes isn't supported on VirtualBox or on Macbooks
>>
>> This is the first I've heard of MacBooks being "not supported".
>>
>
> By "not supported," I mean that there are a lot of known problems
> specific to Macbook compatibility, and we don't have any particular
> commitment to changing Qubes in order to fix/circumvent those problems.
>
>> I know at least one person personally who is currently running
>> Qubes on a recent (<2yo) MacBook, and it is completely usable.
>>
>
> "Not supported" does not (and has never) meant "unusable" or "cannot
> be done." I'm not sure why you would think it does. (Frankly, your
> interpretation is uncharitable, given that I pointed out that there
> are threads on accomplishing each one separately and that it might be
> possible through DIY hacking.)

Err, perhaps it came across wrong. My intention was simply to claim
from first-hand accounts that Qubes is in fact more usable on MacBooks
than it may be given credit for :)

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Re: [qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-09 Thread Andrew David Wong 
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Hash: SHA512

On 2016-12-08 21:11, Jean-Philippe Ouellet wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 6:37 AM, Andrew David Wong
>  wrote:
>> Qubes isn't supported on VirtualBox or on Macbooks
> 
> This is the first I've heard of MacBooks being "not supported".
> 

By "not supported," I mean that there are a lot of known problems
specific to Macbook compatibility, and we don't have any particular
commitment to changing Qubes in order to fix/circumvent those problems.

> I know at least one person personally who is currently running
> Qubes on a recent (<2yo) MacBook, and it is completely usable.
> 

"Not supported" does not (and has never) meant "unusable" or "cannot
be done." I'm not sure why you would think it does. (Frankly, your
interpretation is uncharitable, given that I pointed out that there
are threads on accomplishing each one separately and that it might be
possible through DIY hacking.)

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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Re: [qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-09 Thread Chris Laprise 

On 12/09/2016 12:11 AM, Jean-Philippe Ouellet wrote:

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 6:37 AM, Andrew David Wong  wrote:

Qubes isn't supported on VirtualBox or on Macbooks

This is the first I've heard of MacBooks being "not supported".

I know at least one person personally who is currently running Qubes
on a recent (<2yo) MacBook, and it is completely usable.

The only issues were the need for qubes-input-proxy because the
keyboard attaches via USB, and needing to somehow bootstrap wireless
drivers, fetching them via another computer and transferring them (or
sources for building them) via flash drive.

YMMV



The qubes-input-proxy is a recent feature, and still leaves open the 
possibility of dom0 being attacked by a USB device. If you look at dev 
comments about Macs they're generally not recommended.


Chris

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Re: [qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-08 Thread Jean-Philippe Ouellet 
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 6:37 AM, Andrew David Wong  wrote:
> Qubes isn't supported on VirtualBox or on Macbooks

This is the first I've heard of MacBooks being "not supported".

I know at least one person personally who is currently running Qubes
on a recent (<2yo) MacBook, and it is completely usable.

The only issues were the need for qubes-input-proxy because the
keyboard attaches via USB, and needing to somehow bootstrap wireless
drivers, fetching them via another computer and transferring them (or
sources for building them) via flash drive.

YMMV

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Re: [qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-08 Thread Andrew David Wong 
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Hash: SHA512

On 2016-12-07 06:31, Chibi wrote:
> I tried to install QubesOS in Virtualbox on my Macbook and get the 
> following error:
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/dx9oM  I can't fix it 
> somehow. Is there any way to fix it?
> 

Qubes isn't supported on VirtualBox or on Macbooks, so it's likely one
or both of those. There are threads on trying to accomplish each one
separately (I don't recall any on doing both simultaneously), but
you're probably going to have to do a lot of DIY hacking to get this
setup to work (if it's even possible).

- -- 
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[qubes-users] Installing on macOS Macbook

2016-12-07 Thread Chibi 
I tried to install QubesOS in Virtualbox on my Macbook and get the following 
error:

http://imgur.com/a/dx9oM 
I can't fix it somehow. Is there any way to fix it?

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