Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 11/25/13 09:04, Rich Shepard wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote: Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora require one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as convenient. Well expressed Rich. I agree with you completely. cheers, Rolf Turner __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
StackOverflow has certainly its merits, although I miss a bit the good ol' Oxford sarcasm gems you find in this list. This said : Beginner's list. Bad, bad idea. First rule in my classes is: RTFI (Read The Fucking Internetzz). Anybody using R should be able to do a basic Google search. A beginner's list is not going to help them in learning that. If beginners do the effort of following the posting guidelines, netiquette or any other guide to getting help on the internet, they can safely use this list. Cheers Joris On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Rolf Turner r.tur...@auckland.ac.nzwrote: On 11/25/13 09:04, Rich Shepard wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote: Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora require one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as convenient. Well expressed Rich. I agree with you completely. cheers, Rolf Turner __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/ posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- Joris Meys Statistical consultant Ghent University Faculty of Bioscience Engineering Department of Mathematical Modelling, Statistics and Bio-Informatics tel : +32 9 264 59 87 joris.m...@ugent.be --- Disclaimer : http://helpdesk.ugent.be/e-maildisclaimer.php [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
I do not agree with a separate beginner's list. But I do stand with moving
to stackoverflow, mainly because of the easier google search than current
mailing list. It could make it more accessible.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 4:07 AM, John Sorkin jsor...@grecc.umaryland.eduwrote:
Mailing list vs. stack overflow, I have no opinion, but
beginners list NO! I was a beginner at one time and the
mailing list worked just fine. I see no reason to divide our
efforts across two lists (be they mailing lists or stack overflow).
John
John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D.
Professor of Medicine
Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics
University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and
Geriatric Medicine
Baltimore VA Medical Center
10 North Greene Street
GRECC (BT/18/GR)
Baltimore, MD 21201-1524
(Phone) 410-605-7119
(Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing)
memilanuk memila...@gmail.com 11/24/2013 7:30 PM
On 11/24/2013 12:04 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote:
Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially
good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug
reports). The better place for questions is a web forum.
I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora
require
one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as
convenient.
Rich
With the StackOverflow model, you can either view the list of posts
related to a specific tag via RSS, or subscribe for email notification
of new updates on that topic.
Add in the added bonus of the ability to moderate and/or cull spam and
redundant questions, etc. and the targeted focus of a SO-type forum
increases dramatically IMHO.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Confidentiality Statement:
This email message, including any attachments, is for ...{{dropped:18}}
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
If you want a vision of an R-beginners list, it is a boot stamping
ITS IN THE DOCUMENTATION into a newbies face - forever.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgeorwe159438.html
slight exaggeration perhaps, but most R-beginners would benefit from
reading a bit more documentation and LURKING MOAR on the mailing
list before asking. Same applies to posting on StackOverflow.
Barry
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Arman Eshaghi arman.esha...@gmail.com wrote:
I do not agree with a separate beginner's list. But I do stand with moving
to stackoverflow, mainly because of the easier google search than current
mailing list. It could make it more accessible.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 4:07 AM, John Sorkin
jsor...@grecc.umaryland.eduwrote:
Mailing list vs. stack overflow, I have no opinion, but
beginners list NO! I was a beginner at one time and the
mailing list worked just fine. I see no reason to divide our
efforts across two lists (be they mailing lists or stack overflow).
John
John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D.
Professor of Medicine
Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics
University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and
Geriatric Medicine
Baltimore VA Medical Center
10 North Greene Street
GRECC (BT/18/GR)
Baltimore, MD 21201-1524
(Phone) 410-605-7119
(Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing)
memilanuk memila...@gmail.com 11/24/2013 7:30 PM
On 11/24/2013 12:04 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote:
Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially
good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug
reports). The better place for questions is a web forum.
I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora
require
one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as
convenient.
Rich
With the StackOverflow model, you can either view the list of posts
related to a specific tag via RSS, or subscribe for email notification
of new updates on that topic.
Add in the added bonus of the ability to moderate and/or cull spam and
redundant questions, etc. and the targeted focus of a SO-type forum
increases dramatically IMHO.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Confidentiality Statement:
This email message, including any attachments, is for ...{{dropped:18}}
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
I do not see how it can be illegal to download and duplicate the posts, since all the content is licensed under CC BY-SA. I might have missed something there: http://stackexchange.com/legal If that is really the case, I think I will have to reconsider if I should use it any more. I'm not a lawyer, but I see claims restricting users to personal use. Neither am I, but I don't see any claims about personal use in the Subscriber Content section, which is what concerns content that other people have uploaded to stackoverflow. As Yihui says, all questions and answers (as opposed to the stuff written by stackoverflow the company) is licensed with http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/. I suspect you'll find that the mailing list is in more of a grey area since authors own the copyright to their posts and haven't agreed to any redistribution (apart from what is obvious in signing up for a mailing list). Hadley -- http://had.co.nz/ __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
Hi
I doubt if people start to search answers if they often do not search them in
help pages and documentation provided.
I must agree with Duncan that if Stackoverflow was far more better than this
help list most people would seek advice there then here. Is there any evidence
in decreasing traffic here?
Anyway, similar discussion went in 2003 with outcome that was not in favour for
separate beginner list http://tolstoy.newcastle.edu.au/R/help/03b/7944.html
Petr
BTW it is pitty that r help archive does not extend over year 2012. I found
that *Last message date: Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 12:19:21 GMT
-Original Message-
From: r-help-boun...@r-project.org [mailto:r-help-bounces@r-
project.org] On Behalf Of Arman Eshaghi
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 1:09 PM
To: John Sorkin
Cc: r-help@r-project.org; memilanuk
Subject: Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
I do not agree with a separate beginner's list. But I do stand with
moving to stackoverflow, mainly because of the easier google search
than current mailing list. It could make it more accessible.
On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 4:07 AM, John Sorkin
jsor...@grecc.umaryland.eduwrote:
Mailing list vs. stack overflow, I have no opinion, but beginners
list
NO! I was a beginner at one time and the mailing list worked just
fine. I see no reason to divide our efforts across two lists (be they
mailing lists or stack overflow).
John
John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D.
Professor of Medicine
Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics
University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and
Geriatric Medicine Baltimore VA Medical Center 10 North Greene Street
GRECC (BT/18/GR) Baltimore, MD 21201-1524
(Phone) 410-605-7119
(Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing)
memilanuk memila...@gmail.com 11/24/2013 7:30 PM
On 11/24/2013 12:04 PM, Rich Shepard wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote:
Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and
especially good when more focused on discussions on development
(including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web
forum.
I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web
fora require one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not
nearly as
convenient.
Rich
With the StackOverflow model, you can either view the list of posts
related to a specific tag via RSS, or subscribe for email
notification
of new updates on that topic.
Add in the added bonus of the ability to moderate and/or cull spam
and
redundant questions, etc. and the targeted focus of a SO-type forum
increases dramatically IMHO.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide
http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Confidentiality Statement:
This email message, including any attachments, is for
...{{dropped:18}}
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-
guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
__
R-help@r-project.org mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 25/11/2013 8:47 AM, Hadley Wickham wrote: I do not see how it can be illegal to download and duplicate the posts, since all the content is licensed under CC BY-SA. I might have missed something there: http://stackexchange.com/legal If that is really the case, I think I will have to reconsider if I should use it any more. I'm not a lawyer, but I see claims restricting users to personal use. Neither am I, but I don't see any claims about personal use in the Subscriber Content section, which is what concerns content that other people have uploaded to stackoverflow. As Yihui says, all questions and answers (as opposed to the stuff written by stackoverflow the company) is licensed with http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/. I suspect you'll find that the mailing list is in more of a grey area since authors own the copyright to their posts and haven't agreed to any redistribution (apart from what is obvious in signing up for a mailing list). I like the colour grey. It means that the mailing list is archived in lots of places. SO isn't. Duncan Murdoch __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On Nov 25, 2013, at 7:56 AM, PIKAL Petr petr.pi...@precheza.cz wrote: Hi I doubt if people start to search answers if they often do not search them in help pages and documentation provided. I must agree with Duncan that if Stackoverflow was far more better than this help list most people would seek advice there then here. Is there any evidence in decreasing traffic here? Anyway, similar discussion went in 2003 with outcome that was not in favour for separate beginner list http://tolstoy.newcastle.edu.au/R/help/03b/7944.html Petr BTW it is pitty that r help archive does not extend over year 2012. I found that *Last message date: Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 12:19:21 GMT Petr, I may be confusing your final statement above, but the **main** R-Help archive is current to today: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/ That being said, as one who has been interacting on R-Help (and other R-* lists) for a dozen years or so, I would have to say that one would need to have their head in the sand to not be cognizant of the dramatic decline in the traffic on R-Help in recent years. Simply keeping subjective track of the declining daily traffic ought to be sufficient. Due to work related time constraints, my posting here in recent times has dropped notably. I do still read many of the R-Help posts and along with Martin, am co-moderator on R-Devel. So am still involved in that capacity. I do follow SO and SE via RSS feed, so am aware of the increasing traffic there, albeit, I have not posted there. In addition, there are a multitude of other online locations where R related posts have begun to accumulate. These include various LinkedIn groups, R related blogs, ResearchGate and others. I do believe, however, that SO is the dominant force in the shift of traffic. To answer Petr's question above, I updated and re-ran some code that I had used some years ago to estimate the traffic on various lists/fora: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/2009-January/184196.html To that end, I am attaching a PDF file that contains a barplot of the annual R-Help traffic volume since 1997, through this month. The grey bars represent the actual annual traffic volumes of posts to R-Help. For 2013, I added a red segment to the bar, which shows the projected number of posts for the full year, albeit, it is simply based upon the mean number of posts per day, averaged over the YTD volume, projected over the remaining days in the year, without any seasonal adjustments. So it may be optimistic, as we are coming into the holiday season for many. Bottom line, while the trend was dramatically positive through 2010, peaking at a little over 41,000 total posts, the volume has just as dramatically declined in 2013 to a projected ~21,400. This means that the volume for 2013 has dropped back to the approximate volume of 2005. Only time will tell if the dramatic decline will continue, or reach some new reasonable asymptote that is simply reflective of the distribution of traffic on various other online resources. To the original query posted by Bert, I would say no, there is not a need for a beginner's list. Regards, Marc Schwartz R-Help.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
Here's a similar plot for stackoverflow: http://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/150130/r-questions-and-answers-per-year#graph and one broken down by month http://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/150129/r-questions-and-answers-per-month#graph Hadley On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Marc Schwartz marc_schwa...@me.com wrote: On Nov 25, 2013, at 7:56 AM, PIKAL Petr petr.pi...@precheza.cz wrote: Hi I doubt if people start to search answers if they often do not search them in help pages and documentation provided. I must agree with Duncan that if Stackoverflow was far more better than this help list most people would seek advice there then here. Is there any evidence in decreasing traffic here? Anyway, similar discussion went in 2003 with outcome that was not in favour for separate beginner list http://tolstoy.newcastle.edu.au/R/help/03b/7944.html Petr BTW it is pitty that r help archive does not extend over year 2012. I found that *Last message date: Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 12:19:21 GMT Petr, I may be confusing your final statement above, but the **main** R-Help archive is current to today: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/ That being said, as one who has been interacting on R-Help (and other R-* lists) for a dozen years or so, I would have to say that one would need to have their head in the sand to not be cognizant of the dramatic decline in the traffic on R-Help in recent years. Simply keeping subjective track of the declining daily traffic ought to be sufficient. Due to work related time constraints, my posting here in recent times has dropped notably. I do still read many of the R-Help posts and along with Martin, am co-moderator on R-Devel. So am still involved in that capacity. I do follow SO and SE via RSS feed, so am aware of the increasing traffic there, albeit, I have not posted there. In addition, there are a multitude of other online locations where R related posts have begun to accumulate. These include various LinkedIn groups, R related blogs, ResearchGate and others. I do believe, however, that SO is the dominant force in the shift of traffic. To answer Petr's question above, I updated and re-ran some code that I had used some years ago to estimate the traffic on various lists/fora: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/2009-January/184196.html To that end, I am attaching a PDF file that contains a barplot of the annual R-Help traffic volume since 1997, through this month. The grey bars represent the actual annual traffic volumes of posts to R-Help. For 2013, I added a red segment to the bar, which shows the projected number of posts for the full year, albeit, it is simply based upon the mean number of posts per day, averaged over the YTD volume, projected over the remaining days in the year, without any seasonal adjustments. So it may be optimistic, as we are coming into the holiday season for many. Bottom line, while the trend was dramatically positive through 2010, peaking at a little over 41,000 total posts, the volume has just as dramatically declined in 2013 to a projected ~21,400. This means that the volume for 2013 has dropped back to the approximate volume of 2005. Only time will tell if the dramatic decline will continue, or reach some new reasonable asymptote that is simply reflective of the distribution of traffic on various other online resources. To the original query posted by Bert, I would say no, there is not a need for a beginner's list. Regards, Marc Schwartz __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- http://had.co.nz/ __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
Joran (on StackOverflow chat, funnily enough) has just pointed us to this: http://www.win.tue.nl/~bvasiles/papers/cscw14.pdf How Social QA Sites are Changing Knowledge Sharing in Open Source Software Communities which includes a graph of postings to R-help and questions tagged '[r]' on StackOverflow. By the end of 2012 SO was getting about twice as many [r]-tagged questions as R-help was getting new threads. The paper is a very detailed discussion on the use of mailing lists and discussion sites. On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Marc Schwartz marc_schwa...@me.com wrote: On Nov 25, 2013, at 7:56 AM, PIKAL Petr petr.pi...@precheza.cz wrote: Hi I doubt if people start to search answers if they often do not search them in help pages and documentation provided. I must agree with Duncan that if Stackoverflow was far more better than this help list most people would seek advice there then here. Is there any evidence in decreasing traffic here? Anyway, similar discussion went in 2003 with outcome that was not in favour for separate beginner list http://tolstoy.newcastle.edu.au/R/help/03b/7944.html Petr BTW it is pitty that r help archive does not extend over year 2012. I found that *Last message date: Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 12:19:21 GMT Petr, I may be confusing your final statement above, but the **main** R-Help archive is current to today: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/ That being said, as one who has been interacting on R-Help (and other R-* lists) for a dozen years or so, I would have to say that one would need to have their head in the sand to not be cognizant of the dramatic decline in the traffic on R-Help in recent years. Simply keeping subjective track of the declining daily traffic ought to be sufficient. Due to work related time constraints, my posting here in recent times has dropped notably. I do still read many of the R-Help posts and along with Martin, am co-moderator on R-Devel. So am still involved in that capacity. I do follow SO and SE via RSS feed, so am aware of the increasing traffic there, albeit, I have not posted there. In addition, there are a multitude of other online locations where R related posts have begun to accumulate. These include various LinkedIn groups, R related blogs, ResearchGate and others. I do believe, however, that SO is the dominant force in the shift of traffic. To answer Petr's question above, I updated and re-ran some code that I had used some years ago to estimate the traffic on various lists/fora: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/2009-January/184196.html To that end, I am attaching a PDF file that contains a barplot of the annual R-Help traffic volume since 1997, through this month. The grey bars represent the actual annual traffic volumes of posts to R-Help. For 2013, I added a red segment to the bar, which shows the projected number of posts for the full year, albeit, it is simply based upon the mean number of posts per day, averaged over the YTD volume, projected over the remaining days in the year, without any seasonal adjustments. So it may be optimistic, as we are coming into the holiday season for many. Bottom line, while the trend was dramatically positive through 2010, peaking at a little over 41,000 total posts, the volume has just as dramatically declined in 2013 to a projected ~21,400. This means that the volume for 2013 has dropped back to the approximate volume of 2005. Only time will tell if the dramatic decline will continue, or reach some new reasonable asymptote that is simply reflective of the distribution of traffic on various other online resources. To the original query posted by Bert, I would say no, there is not a need for a beginner's list. Regards, Marc Schwartz __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
Oops, I misunderstood the database schema, and that only includes _questions_ tagged R, not the corresponding answers. Hadley On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Hadley Wickham h.wick...@gmail.com wrote: Here's a similar plot for stackoverflow: http://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/150130/r-questions-and-answers-per-year#graph and one broken down by month http://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/150129/r-questions-and-answers-per-month#graph Hadley On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Marc Schwartz marc_schwa...@me.com wrote: On Nov 25, 2013, at 7:56 AM, PIKAL Petr petr.pi...@precheza.cz wrote: Hi I doubt if people start to search answers if they often do not search them in help pages and documentation provided. I must agree with Duncan that if Stackoverflow was far more better than this help list most people would seek advice there then here. Is there any evidence in decreasing traffic here? Anyway, similar discussion went in 2003 with outcome that was not in favour for separate beginner list http://tolstoy.newcastle.edu.au/R/help/03b/7944.html Petr BTW it is pitty that r help archive does not extend over year 2012. I found that *Last message date: Tue 31 Jan 2012 - 12:19:21 GMT Petr, I may be confusing your final statement above, but the **main** R-Help archive is current to today: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/ That being said, as one who has been interacting on R-Help (and other R-* lists) for a dozen years or so, I would have to say that one would need to have their head in the sand to not be cognizant of the dramatic decline in the traffic on R-Help in recent years. Simply keeping subjective track of the declining daily traffic ought to be sufficient. Due to work related time constraints, my posting here in recent times has dropped notably. I do still read many of the R-Help posts and along with Martin, am co-moderator on R-Devel. So am still involved in that capacity. I do follow SO and SE via RSS feed, so am aware of the increasing traffic there, albeit, I have not posted there. In addition, there are a multitude of other online locations where R related posts have begun to accumulate. These include various LinkedIn groups, R related blogs, ResearchGate and others. I do believe, however, that SO is the dominant force in the shift of traffic. To answer Petr's question above, I updated and re-ran some code that I had used some years ago to estimate the traffic on various lists/fora: https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/2009-January/184196.html To that end, I am attaching a PDF file that contains a barplot of the annual R-Help traffic volume since 1997, through this month. The grey bars represent the actual annual traffic volumes of posts to R-Help. For 2013, I added a red segment to the bar, which shows the projected number of posts for the full year, albeit, it is simply based upon the mean number of posts per day, averaged over the YTD volume, projected over the remaining days in the year, without any seasonal adjustments. So it may be optimistic, as we are coming into the holiday season for many. Bottom line, while the trend was dramatically positive through 2010, peaking at a little over 41,000 total posts, the volume has just as dramatically declined in 2013 to a projected ~21,400. This means that the volume for 2013 has dropped back to the approximate volume of 2005. Only time will tell if the dramatic decline will continue, or reach some new reasonable asymptote that is simply reflective of the distribution of traffic on various other online resources. To the original query posted by Bert, I would say no, there is not a need for a beginner's list. Regards, Marc Schwartz __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. -- http://had.co.nz/ -- http://had.co.nz/ __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 13-11-25 06:00 AM, r-help-requ...@r-project.org wrote: Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 13:04:43 -0600 From: Yihui Xiex...@yihui.name To: Bert Guntergunter.ber...@gene.com Cc:r-help@r-project.org r-help@r-project.org Subject: Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list? Message-ID: CANROs4d=usu3ofqmtxbugv9v4_t9r+c3m0s15lrdcfpdj1q...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm not aware of a discussion on this, but I would say no. Just for the record, there was a discussion of this in a thread called newbie list in August 2001 when R-help started getting busy: http://tolstoy.newcastle.edu.au/R/help/01c/0880.html Predates StackOverflow I think, but several of the comments may still be valid. Paul Fragmentation is bad. Further fragmentation is worse. TL;DR = Actually I'd say all mailing lists except r-devel should be moving to StackOverlow in the future (disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with it). Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. Both you and I have been staying in these R mailing lists for a few years now. You can recall how many times a user was asked to post to another mailing list (this is not an appropriate list to ask your question; please post to r-such-and-such instead), how many times you see something like Alternative HTML removed, how many times you see a post Bla Bla (was: Foo Bar), and how many times users were reminded Please read the posting guide, Please do read, and PLEASE do read. But it just does not help much even if you write PLEASE DO READ. Why do we have such problems in the mailing lists again and again? Is that simply because users are not respecting the rules? I do not think so. I believe that is the flaw of mailing lists. A mailing list is managed by a small team (hey, Martin, thank you). On StackOverflow, you simply edit the tags of a post to make it belong to a new mailing list (you can post with tags r+ubuntu+graphics, or r+lattice, etc). There is no need to request and wait for the system admin to make a decision. Users can help themselves, and help others as well. HTML can be good in many cases, actually. Who hates syntax highlighting and R plots in an R question? You are free to ask a question that is poorly formatted, and there are good chances that it will be immediately edited by another experienced user. You are free to yell in the comments asking for more details before posting a formal answer. You can express ah, this is a bad question by down-voting so that future readers know that guy screwed up and we just let the world ignore the noise. It is like peer-review, and the reviewers can help you improve your post. In a mailing list, when you are done, you are done. You are forever written in history, right or wrong, smart or stupid. You want to delete your record in the history? No, no, gentleman, it was your fault not reading the post guide. For me, I understand all the rationale behind the mailing list model. I'm just saying, the primary goal for such a service is to discuss issues about R, instead of issues induced by the mailing list itself. We could have made some issues not directly related to R go away by community efforts instead of giving instructions a million times, given an appropriate platform. Five years, 42,000 posts:http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/r I'm not terribly worried about transition from mailing lists to SO. Sorry about the generalization of the original topic, but I hate using a new title Should there be R mailing lists? (was: Should there be an R-beginners list?) Last but not least, I probably need to clarify that I benefited a lot from the mailing lists in the past, and I truly appreciate it. I wrote this with the future in mind, not the past. The past was good, and the future can be better. Regards, Yihui -- Yihui Xiexieyi...@gmail.com Web:http://yihui.name Department of Statistics, Iowa State University 2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Bert Guntergunter.ber...@gene.com wrote: Folks: If this has been previously discussed and settled, please say so and refer me to the discussion. If you believe this to be inappropriate or otherwise frivolous, also please say so, as I do not wish to waste your time or this space. I write as a long time reader and sometimes contributor to r-help. Due to R's growth in usage by a broad data analysis community (engineers, scientists, social scientists, finance, informaticians, as well as more traditional statisticians), this list seems to me to becoming deluged by requests for help by casual users and students for whom R is not going to be regularly or extensively used. I would characterize this group as having only basic statistical, programming, and data analysis skills. This is not meant as a criticism, and there are certainly many for whom this is inaccurate
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
A couple things: First, Beginners' lists never work. Beginners invariably can't read (cf. posting guidelines), so they will post to the main list anyway. Second, I see some people prefer to receive email-lists of the topics, and others prefer to work via a webbrowser interface. I'd have to say the overwhelming popularity of StackExchange suggests the latter is a much bigger group. AFAIK it's possible to generate an RSS or possibly some sort of pure e-mail feed from SO but I don't know for certain, but in any case, the only question is whether r-help will die of lonliness. Nobody is suggesting it be shut down. I'll also point out that it's much easier to filter SO (by topic and by score) than r-help. Carl, the DataMungerGuru-accolyte -- View this message in context: http://r.789695.n4.nabble.com/Should-there-be-an-R-beginners-list-tp4681068p4681124.html Sent from the R help mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
I'm not aware of a discussion on this, but I would say no. Fragmentation is bad. Further fragmentation is worse. TL;DR = Actually I'd say all mailing lists except r-devel should be moving to StackOverlow in the future (disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with it). Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. Both you and I have been staying in these R mailing lists for a few years now. You can recall how many times a user was asked to post to another mailing list (this is not an appropriate list to ask your question; please post to r-such-and-such instead), how many times you see something like Alternative HTML removed, how many times you see a post Bla Bla (was: Foo Bar), and how many times users were reminded Please read the posting guide, Please do read, and PLEASE do read. But it just does not help much even if you write PLEASE DO READ. Why do we have such problems in the mailing lists again and again? Is that simply because users are not respecting the rules? I do not think so. I believe that is the flaw of mailing lists. A mailing list is managed by a small team (hey, Martin, thank you). On StackOverflow, you simply edit the tags of a post to make it belong to a new mailing list (you can post with tags r+ubuntu+graphics, or r+lattice, etc). There is no need to request and wait for the system admin to make a decision. Users can help themselves, and help others as well. HTML can be good in many cases, actually. Who hates syntax highlighting and R plots in an R question? You are free to ask a question that is poorly formatted, and there are good chances that it will be immediately edited by another experienced user. You are free to yell in the comments asking for more details before posting a formal answer. You can express ah, this is a bad question by down-voting so that future readers know that guy screwed up and we just let the world ignore the noise. It is like peer-review, and the reviewers can help you improve your post. In a mailing list, when you are done, you are done. You are forever written in history, right or wrong, smart or stupid. You want to delete your record in the history? No, no, gentleman, it was your fault not reading the post guide. For me, I understand all the rationale behind the mailing list model. I'm just saying, the primary goal for such a service is to discuss issues about R, instead of issues induced by the mailing list itself. We could have made some issues not directly related to R go away by community efforts instead of giving instructions a million times, given an appropriate platform. Five years, 42,000 posts: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/r I'm not terribly worried about transition from mailing lists to SO. Sorry about the generalization of the original topic, but I hate using a new title Should there be R mailing lists? (was: Should there be an R-beginners list?) Last but not least, I probably need to clarify that I benefited a lot from the mailing lists in the past, and I truly appreciate it. I wrote this with the future in mind, not the past. The past was good, and the future can be better. Regards, Yihui -- Yihui Xie xieyi...@gmail.com Web: http://yihui.name Department of Statistics, Iowa State University 2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Bert Gunter gunter.ber...@gene.com wrote: Folks: If this has been previously discussed and settled, please say so and refer me to the discussion. If you believe this to be inappropriate or otherwise frivolous, also please say so, as I do not wish to waste your time or this space. I write as a long time reader and sometimes contributor to r-help. Due to R's growth in usage by a broad data analysis community (engineers, scientists, social scientists, finance, informaticians, as well as more traditional statisticians), this list seems to me to becoming deluged by requests for help by casual users and students for whom R is not going to be regularly or extensively used. I would characterize this group as having only basic statistical, programming, and data analysis skills. This is not meant as a criticism, and there are certainly many for whom this is inaccurate. But ... By and large, such users have not spend much time with R's docs, including tutorials or FAQ's. Many of their posts reflect this, and can be answered with basic replies or references to docs, to wit: What is the difference between ifelse and if else? FAQ 7.31. Confusion of data frames, matrices, and spreadsheet tables; etc. Would it be useful, then, to establish an R-beginners list specifically to absorb this traffic and free up R-help from what I would say was its original intent, to provide a forum for serious, more dedicated R users (Again, no criticism is intended here)? I realize that, whether or not this suggestion is worthwhile, there
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 13-11-24 2:04 PM, Yihui Xie wrote: I'm not aware of a discussion on this, but I would say no. Fragmentation is bad. Further fragmentation is worse. TL;DR = Actually I'd say all mailing lists except r-devel should be moving to StackOverlow in the future (disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with it). I would generally agree with you, except for a few points. 1. I avoid StackOverflow, because they claim copyright on the compilation. As I read their terms of service, it would be illegal for anyone to download and duplicate all postings about R. So a posting there is only available as long as they choose to make it available. Postings to the mailing list are archived in several places. 2. I think an interface like StackOverflow is better than the mailing list interface, and will eventually win out. R-help needs to do nothing, once someone puts together something like StackOverflow that attracts most of the people who give good answers, R-help will just fade away. Duncan Murdoch Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. Both you and I have been staying in these R mailing lists for a few years now. You can recall how many times a user was asked to post to another mailing list (this is not an appropriate list to ask your question; please post to r-such-and-such instead), how many times you see something like Alternative HTML removed, how many times you see a post Bla Bla (was: Foo Bar), and how many times users were reminded Please read the posting guide, Please do read, and PLEASE do read. But it just does not help much even if you write PLEASE DO READ. Why do we have such problems in the mailing lists again and again? Is that simply because users are not respecting the rules? I do not think so. I believe that is the flaw of mailing lists. A mailing list is managed by a small team (hey, Martin, thank you). On StackOverflow, you simply edit the tags of a post to make it belong to a new mailing list (you can post with tags r+ubuntu+graphics, or r+lattice, etc). There is no need to request and wait for the system admin to make a decision. Users can help themselves, and help others as well. HTML can be good in many cases, actually. Who hates syntax highlighting and R plots in an R question? You are free to ask a question that is poorly formatted, and there are good chances that it will be immediately edited by another experienced user. You are free to yell in the comments asking for more details before posting a formal answer. You can express ah, this is a bad question by down-voting so that future readers know that guy screwed up and we just let the world ignore the noise. It is like peer-review, and the reviewers can help you improve your post. In a mailing list, when you are done, you are done. You are forever written in history, right or wrong, smart or stupid. You want to delete your record in the history? No, no, gentleman, it was your fault not reading the post guide. For me, I understand all the rationale behind the mailing list model. I'm just saying, the primary goal for such a service is to discuss issues about R, instead of issues induced by the mailing list itself. We could have made some issues not directly related to R go away by community efforts instead of giving instructions a million times, given an appropriate platform. Five years, 42,000 posts: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/r I'm not terribly worried about transition from mailing lists to SO. Sorry about the generalization of the original topic, but I hate using a new title Should there be R mailing lists? (was: Should there be an R-beginners list?) Last but not least, I probably need to clarify that I benefited a lot from the mailing lists in the past, and I truly appreciate it. I wrote this with the future in mind, not the past. The past was good, and the future can be better. Regards, Yihui -- Yihui Xie xieyi...@gmail.com Web: http://yihui.name Department of Statistics, Iowa State University 2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Bert Gunter gunter.ber...@gene.com wrote: Folks: If this has been previously discussed and settled, please say so and refer me to the discussion. If you believe this to be inappropriate or otherwise frivolous, also please say so, as I do not wish to waste your time or this space. I write as a long time reader and sometimes contributor to r-help. Due to R's growth in usage by a broad data analysis community (engineers, scientists, social scientists, finance, informaticians, as well as more traditional statisticians), this list seems to me to becoming deluged by requests for help by casual users and students for whom R is not going to be regularly or extensively used. I would characterize this group as having only basic statistical, programming, and data analysis skills. This is not meant as a
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
I do not see how it can be illegal to download and duplicate the posts, since all the content is licensed under CC BY-SA. I might have missed something there: http://stackexchange.com/legal If that is really the case, I think I will have to reconsider if I should use it any more. Regards, Yihui -- Yihui Xie xieyi...@gmail.com Web: http://yihui.name Department of Statistics, Iowa State University 2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Duncan Murdoch murdoch.dun...@gmail.com wrote: On 13-11-24 2:04 PM, Yihui Xie wrote: I'm not aware of a discussion on this, but I would say no. Fragmentation is bad. Further fragmentation is worse. TL;DR = Actually I'd say all mailing lists except r-devel should be moving to StackOverlow in the future (disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with it). I would generally agree with you, except for a few points. 1. I avoid StackOverflow, because they claim copyright on the compilation. As I read their terms of service, it would be illegal for anyone to download and duplicate all postings about R. So a posting there is only available as long as they choose to make it available. Postings to the mailing list are archived in several places. 2. I think an interface like StackOverflow is better than the mailing list interface, and will eventually win out. R-help needs to do nothing, once someone puts together something like StackOverflow that attracts most of the people who give good answers, R-help will just fade away. Duncan Murdoch __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 13-11-24 4:13 PM, Yihui Xie wrote: I do not see how it can be illegal to download and duplicate the posts, since all the content is licensed under CC BY-SA. I might have missed something there: http://stackexchange.com/legal If that is really the case, I think I will have to reconsider if I should use it any more. I'm not a lawyer, but I see claims restricting users to personal use. Duncan Murdoch Regards, Yihui -- Yihui Xie xieyi...@gmail.com Web: http://yihui.name Department of Statistics, Iowa State University 2215 Snedecor Hall, Ames, IA On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Duncan Murdoch murdoch.dun...@gmail.com wrote: On 13-11-24 2:04 PM, Yihui Xie wrote: I'm not aware of a discussion on this, but I would say no. Fragmentation is bad. Further fragmentation is worse. TL;DR = Actually I'd say all mailing lists except r-devel should be moving to StackOverlow in the future (disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with it). I would generally agree with you, except for a few points. 1. I avoid StackOverflow, because they claim copyright on the compilation. As I read their terms of service, it would be illegal for anyone to download and duplicate all postings about R. So a posting there is only available as long as they choose to make it available. Postings to the mailing list are archived in several places. 2. I think an interface like StackOverflow is better than the mailing list interface, and will eventually win out. R-help needs to do nothing, once someone puts together something like StackOverflow that attracts most of the people who give good answers, R-help will just fade away. Duncan Murdoch __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Bert Gunter wrote: Would it be useful, then, to establish an R-beginners list specifically to absorb this traffic and free up R-help from what I would say was its original intent, to provide a forum for serious, more dedicated R users (Again, no criticism is intended here)? Bert, I support the idea. There are a number of specialized sub-lists (e.g., ecological, mixed effects, spatial) so there's every reason to have a new SIG: new users. I realize that, whether or not this suggestion is worthwhile, there are several ways it could fail. First, too few might be interested in responding to posts on the new list. Second, too few might consider themselves beginners who post to it. Etc. So I would certainly say any such effort ought to be a pilot and tentative . From what I see on the main mail list (where a lot of beginner questions could be answered by the available docs or the many dead tree books that I've read and use a references) folks will be willing to self-identify as belonging to this category and get the tutoring they need without being put down or feeling uncomfortable. You're correct that not every user spends his or her working life using R; many of us use multiple technical tools as needed by each project. At some point we were all newcomers to R, and each of us has a different ability to self-learn. Rich -- Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D. | Have knowledge, will travel. Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. | http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517 Fax: 503-667-8863 __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote: Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora require one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as convenient. Rich -- Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D. | Have knowledge, will travel. Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc. | http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517 Fax: 503-667-8863 __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
Hi, On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Duncan Murdoch murdoch.dun...@gmail.com wrote: On 13-11-24 4:13 PM, Yihui Xie wrote: I do not see how it can be illegal to download and duplicate the posts, since all the content is licensed under CC BY-SA. I might have missed something there: http://stackexchange.com/legal If that is really the case, I think I will have to reconsider if I should use it any more. I'm not a lawyer, but I see claims restricting users to personal use. I guess one would have to clarify what is and isn't possible with the data. I'm guessing they are trying to scare people/entities away from trawling SO and repackaging it into another inko/knowledgebase offering. That having been said, there is a SO clone that was developed by the folks at biostars.org which is an OSS StackOverflow clone https://github.com/ialbert/biostar-central Someone would just need to host it, though. Given SO's critical mass, though, I think it's hard to argue against simply using that. -steve -- Steve Lianoglou Computational Biologist Genentech __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 13-11-24 5:42 PM, Steve Lianoglou wrote: Hi, On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Duncan Murdoch murdoch.dun...@gmail.com wrote: On 13-11-24 4:13 PM, Yihui Xie wrote: I do not see how it can be illegal to download and duplicate the posts, since all the content is licensed under CC BY-SA. I might have missed something there: http://stackexchange.com/legal If that is really the case, I think I will have to reconsider if I should use it any more. I'm not a lawyer, but I see claims restricting users to personal use. I guess one would have to clarify what is and isn't possible with the data. I'm guessing they are trying to scare people/entities away from trawling SO and repackaging it into another inko/knowledgebase offering. But that is exactly the capability I was asking for, and it's a capability which the mailing list currently has. (E.g. nabble repackages the list, and there are lots of sites that archive it.) That having been said, there is a SO clone that was developed by the folks at biostars.org which is an OSS StackOverflow clone https://github.com/ialbert/biostar-central Someone would just need to host it, though. Given SO's critical mass, though, I think it's hard to argue against simply using that. Not for me. Duncan Murdoch -steve __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
On 11/24/2013 12:04 PM, Rich Shepard wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote: Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora require one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as convenient. Rich With the StackOverflow model, you can either view the list of posts related to a specific tag via RSS, or subscribe for email notification of new updates on that topic. Add in the added bonus of the ability to moderate and/or cull spam and redundant questions, etc. and the targeted focus of a SO-type forum increases dramatically IMHO. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Re: [R] Should there be an R-beginners list?
Mailing list vs. stack overflow, I have no opinion, but beginners list NO! I was a beginner at one time and the mailing list worked just fine. I see no reason to divide our efforts across two lists (be they mailing lists or stack overflow). John John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D. Professor of Medicine Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and Geriatric Medicine Baltimore VA Medical Center 10 North Greene Street GRECC (BT/18/GR) Baltimore, MD 21201-1524 (Phone) 410-605-7119 (Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing) memilanuk memila...@gmail.com 11/24/2013 7:30 PM On 11/24/2013 12:04 PM, Rich Shepard wrote: On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Yihui Xie wrote: Mailing lists are good for a smaller group of people, and especially good when more focused on discussions on development (including bug reports). The better place for questions is a web forum. I disagree. Mail lists push messages to subscribers while web fora require one to use a browser, log in, then pull messages. Not nearly as convenient. Rich With the StackOverflow model, you can either view the list of posts related to a specific tag via RSS, or subscribe for email notification of new updates on that topic. Add in the added bonus of the ability to moderate and/or cull spam and redundant questions, etc. and the targeted focus of a SO-type forum increases dramatically IMHO. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. Confidentiality Statement: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. __ R-help@r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
