Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[James Platt]

> I wouldn't take it as passive-aggressive per-se. It's just super confusing. 
> Especially if you watch the discussion about future of Racket at RacketCon 
> where Matthias has stated it pretty clearly and other confirmed that - the 
> core team is doing all infrastructure maintenance more-or-less in their free 
> time because their primary focus is development (of various parts of Racket 
> ecosystem).


If the Racket community has grown enough recently (not sure where we stand 
right now), maybe we should take a look at what needs doing and which tasks can 
be split up to be done by different people.   Then ask for volunteers.  

James

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Dexter Lagan]

  Correct! Same feeling here.

Sir Wexler please do explain yourself.

Have a great day!

Dex

> On Nov 23, 2021, at 11:38 AM, kamist...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I searched for "Etan Wexler" on google groups and found other older messages, 
> but they seem more normal, human written.
> But I can't quite decide whether this latest message is human art, or maybe 
> ai art / an ai or a bot conversing.
> 
> What I find strange is the repetitions within the text, but that might be an 
> "intentional" choice, whether human or AI.
> Interestingly Discourse is mistyped as Discursive, I didn't know that word as 
> non-native speaker, it means to digress / "to wander from the subject" and 
> the text seems to do that.
> So that could both be a human using irony or an AI seeing it as an prompt to 
> do that.
> 
> While the message reminds me of early videos I saw about GPT-2 and AI 
> generated texts, within the context of the other messages I am not really 
> sure.
> The earlier messages make me think, the text is written by a human that likes 
> word puzzles and experimenting with different styles of expression, without 
> leaving an explanation of what is actually meant. 
> I guess we are reaching a point were we can't be sure anymore whether there 
> is a human typing anymore.
> I also wonder whether all captchas are completely useless by now.
> 
> At least videos like this make me think that is the case:
> OpenAI GPT-3 - Good At Almost Everything! 烙
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9AwxfjxvE
> 
> I guess we will have to wait and see, whether there will be other messages.
> 
> Simon
> 
> dexte...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 23. November 2021 um 09:12:25 UTC+1:
>>   This is by far the strangest message I've ever read about Racket. It comes 
>> a close second to that all-caps spam we get constantly on the mailing list! 
>> I'd pay good money to know what's written between the lines. It sounds like 
>> really, really passive-aggressive.
>> 
>> Dex
>> 
>>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC+1 johnbclements wrote:
>>> I’m … super confused by this message. Did I miss something? I feel like 
>>> this message has a subtext that I’m completely missing. 
>>> 
>>> John 
>>> 
>>> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 08:06, Etan Wexler  wrote: 
>>> > 
>>> > The stewards of Racket have decided that it’s time to give up on the 
>>> > mailing list (that is, racket-users, to which this message is a 
>>> > contribution). The stewards of Racket have designated another forum for 
>>> > Racket as the successor to racket-users. This other forum for discussing 
>>> > Racket has as its basis the software named “Discourse”, which is 
>>> > open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to the Discursive 
>>> > forum for Racket. Enlisting is prerequisite to receiving as Internet mail 
>>> > the contributions to the Discursive forum for Racket. The stewards of 
>>> > Racket have published a facility for enlisting as a participant in the 
>>> > Discursive forum for Racket. 
>>> > 
>>> 
> 
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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[kamist...@gmail.com]

I searched for "Etan Wexler" on google groups and found other older 
messages, but they seem more normal, human written.
But I can't quite decide whether this latest message is human art, or maybe 
ai art / an ai or a bot conversing.

What I find strange is the repetitions within the text, but that might be 
an "intentional" choice, whether human or AI.
Interestingly Discourse is mistyped as Discursive, I didn't know that word 
as non-native speaker, it means to digress / "to wander from the subject" 
and the text seems to do that.
So that could both be a human using irony or an AI seeing it as an prompt 
to do that.

While the message reminds me of early videos I saw about GPT-2 and AI 
generated texts, within the context of the other messages I am not really 
sure.
The earlier messages make me think, the text is written by a human that 
likes word puzzles and experimenting with different styles of expression, 
without leaving an explanation of what is actually meant. 
I guess we are reaching a point were we can't be sure anymore whether there 
is a human typing anymore.
I also wonder whether all captchas are completely useless by now.

At least videos like this make me think that is the case:
OpenAI GPT-3 - Good At Almost Everything! 烙
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9AwxfjxvE

I guess we will have to wait and see, whether there will be other messages.

Simon

dexte...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 23. November 2021 um 09:12:25 UTC+1:

>   This is by far the strangest message I've ever read about Racket. It 
> comes a close second to that all-caps spam we get constantly on the mailing 
> list! I'd pay good money to know what's written between the lines. It 
> sounds like really, really passive-aggressive.
>
> Dex
>
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC+1 johnbclements wrote:
>
>> I’m … super confused by this message. Did I miss something? I feel like 
>> this message has a subtext that I’m completely missing. 
>>
>> John 
>>
>> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 08:06, Etan Wexler  wrote: 
>> > 
>> > The stewards of Racket have decided that it’s time to give up on the 
>> mailing list (that is, racket-users, to which this message is a 
>> contribution). The stewards of Racket have designated another forum for 
>> Racket as the successor to racket-users. This other forum for discussing 
>> Racket has as its basis the software named “Discourse”, which is 
>> open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to the Discursive 
>> forum for Racket. Enlisting is prerequisite to receiving as Internet mail 
>> the contributions to the Discursive forum for Racket. The stewards of 
>> Racket have published a facility for enlisting as a participant in the 
>> Discursive forum for Racket. 
>> > 
>>
>>

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Dominik Pantůček]

Hello Racketeers,

I wouldn't take it as passive-aggressive per-se. It's just super 
confusing. Especially if you watch the discussion about future of Racket 
at RacketCon where Matthias has stated it pretty clearly and other 
confirmed that - the core team is doing all infrastructure maintenance 
more-or-less in their free time because their primary focus is 
development (of various parts of Racket ecosystem).


I am trying to use Discourse like ML and although it's got some really 
rough edges, it kinda works. If the new topic creation via mail gets 
resolved, it will be basically OK for me. My impression is that some of 
its features could be called "NNTP-like" and yes, I would really like to 
see NNTP interface (and then importing all those years of MLs into the 
archives would make much more sense then).


But as others have pointed out, maintaining infrastructure such as this 
requires non-negligible amount of work! So please take this as my 
personal opinion and not as an - even the slightest - attempt of 
demanding anything! I run some infrastructure and I know it needs time 
(all the time).



And thanks to John and Stephen for taking care of the Discourse instance!


Cheers,
Dominik

On 23. 11. 21 9:12, Dexter Lagan wrote:
   This is by far the strangest message I've ever read about Racket. It 
comes a close second to that all-caps spam we get constantly on the 
mailing list! I'd pay good money to know what's written between the 
lines. It sounds like really, really passive-aggressive.


Dex

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC+1 johnbclements wrote:

I’m … super confused by this message. Did I miss something? I feel
like this message has a subtext that I’m completely missing.

John

 > On Nov 22, 2021, at 08:06, Etan Wexler  wrote:
 >
 > The stewards of Racket have decided that it’s time to give up on
the mailing list (that is, racket-users, to which this message is a
contribution). The stewards of Racket have designated another forum
for Racket as the successor to racket-users. This other forum for
discussing Racket has as its basis the software named “Discourse”,
which is open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to
the Discursive forum for Racket. Enlisting is prerequisite to
receiving as Internet mail the contributions to the Discursive forum
for Racket. The stewards of Racket have published a facility for
enlisting as a participant in the Discursive forum for Racket.
 >

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Dexter Lagan]

  This is by far the strangest message I've ever read about Racket. It 
comes a close second to that all-caps spam we get constantly on the mailing 
list! I'd pay good money to know what's written between the lines. It 
sounds like really, really passive-aggressive.

Dex

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC+1 johnbclements wrote:

> I’m … super confused by this message. Did I miss something? I feel like 
> this message has a subtext that I’m completely missing.
>
> John
>
> > On Nov 22, 2021, at 08:06, Etan Wexler  wrote:
> > 
> > The stewards of Racket have decided that it’s time to give up on the 
> mailing list (that is, racket-users, to which this message is a 
> contribution). The stewards of Racket have designated another forum for 
> Racket as the successor to racket-users. This other forum for discussing 
> Racket has as its basis the software named “Discourse”, which is 
> open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to the Discursive 
> forum for Racket. Enlisting is prerequisite to receiving as Internet mail 
> the contributions to the Discursive forum for Racket. The stewards of 
> Racket have published a facility for enlisting as a participant in the 
> Discursive forum for Racket.
> > 
>
>

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[George Neuner]

On 11/22/2021 11:19 AM, Philip McGrath wrote:


It appears that some Gmail spam filter has decided that 
racket-users@googlegroups.com is a suspicious email address. It seems 
like roughly half of the legitimate traffic on the list is never 
reaching me and being marked as spam (at one of two or three hops on 
its way—but I have every reason to believe the situation would be as 
bad or worse for a new subscriber with a less convoluted email setup, 
especially since even mail from people I've corresponded with directly 
is being marked as spam). This seems reasonable, actually, since the 
Google Groups filters don't seem to be stopping a very high proportion 
of total traffic on the list from consisting of all-caps spam in 
Italian with some obviously-off-topic keywords.


I'm all for finding that fool who spams in Italian and giving him a 
Sicilian necktie for Christmas.


OTOH, the problems with spam filters are just more reasons to ditch 
Google and Gmail ... not necessarily the mailing list.


YMMV,
George

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Hendrik Boom]

First reason for ignoring this message:

It's an html-only post on a text mailing list.

-- hendrik


On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 08:06:01AM -0500, Etan Wexler wrote:

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

['John Clements' via Racket Users]

I think I agree with pretty much everything you’ve written here. 

I will note that your problem with sending email to the mailing list from a 
different address *is* one I’ve experienced, many hundreds of times. 

I think your #1 and your #5 is more or less what blog.racket-lang.org is. I see 
Discourse as our best choice for #2. For chat, it sounds like most folks like 
IRC, Slack, or Discord. I’m not generally in that market, so I don’t think my 
opinions are worth much, there. I think there’s some hope that discourse might 
help out with #4, as well. 

Best,

John 

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 16:05, Siddhartha Kasivajhula  wrote:
> 
> That first email reads like a cross between a mathematical proof and some 
> kind of satire. Good stuff :)
> 
> The broad communication needs seem to be:
> 
> (1) a bulletin board / a channel for announcements
> (2) a forum / a channel for discussions
> (3) chat / a realtime channel.
> (4) a knowledge base
> (5) a broadcast / external-facing medium
> 
> It sounds like the proposal here is to use Discourse for both (1) and (2). 
> All of the above become (4) if they are archived, but there is also the wiki 
> (which I didn't know about) and of course the website and docs. Anyone can 
> tweet @racketlang for (5), I guess. And we haven't really talked about (3) 
> yet.
> 
> Some considerations people have brought up include:
> 
> Noise: I agree that Discourse is likely to have more volume. As a result, 
> simply using it in mailing list mode isn't exactly a 1-to-1 replacement, 
> since the volume of emails would be higher, making it less appropriate for 
> announcements. It would be nice to be able to have more fine-grained controls 
> over which messages get emailed (e.g. in terms of category or activity). The 
> other (complementary, in my view) option is to use digest mode. In 
> traditional mailing lists we pick one or the other. In Discourse, it seems 
> that if you visit the site, it doesn't send you the digest for that day. It 
> would be nice if it could be configured to always send a digest, to actually 
> emulate mailing list behavior. Finally, I did notice that I wasn't able to 
> reply to a Discourse post from my phone. It looked like my phone email client 
> was using the default sender instead of the Discourse-specific one. I don't 
> recall that happening in similar situations before, but it's entirely 
> possible that this is a problem with my email client. In any case, with these 
> improvements, I do think Discourse could be compelling as a replacement for 
> the mailing list for most people.
> 
> Open source: I agree this is an important criterion (which is one reason 
> you'll find me on IRC rather than Discord or Slack). Phil's point that Google 
> Groups isn't open source while Discourse is, seems a compelling argument for 
> Discourse here.
> 
> Terms of service: Can't believe I signed my rights away to company_name 
> without even reading applicable_laws in jurisdiction_here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 9:19 AM Sage Gerard  wrote:
> Mozilla's notes on their own instance summarizes an email-exclusive
> workflow well.
> 
> https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279
> 
> On 11/22/21 12:16 PM, 'John Clements' via Racket Users wrote:
> > Yes, I believe that replies by email are currently enabled. Here, let me 
> > test that.
> >
> > …
> >
> > Oh, yeah… can’t do that, the incoming email address isn’t the one that I 
> > send from. Sigh. Perhaps someone else can try this?
> >
> > One thing that I know isn’t set up yet is starting a new topic by email. I 
> > know it’s possible, but somebody needs to read the docs and check what’s 
> > required in order to set it up.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Nov 22, 2021, at 11:56, Sage Gerard  wrote:
> >>
> >> Y'all are configuring Discourse to allow replies by emails too, right?
> >>
> >> On 11/22/21 11:00 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 15:25, Martin Weigele  wrote:
> >>> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again 
> >>> and
> >>> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
> >>> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much
> >>> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
> >>> client, with a completely standard UI.
> >>>
> >>> Discourse has a mailing list mode each user can choose to enable which 
> >>> allows them to receive every post to their mail client, so you can 
> >>> continue to use your mail client workflow for following messages over 
> >>> there as well.
> >>>
> >>> - Ryan
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> >>> "Racket Users" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> >>> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >>> 

Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Siddhartha Kasivajhula]

That first email reads like a cross between a mathematical proof and some
kind of satire. Good stuff :)

The broad communication needs seem to be:

(1) a bulletin board / a channel for announcements
(2) a forum / a channel for discussions
(3) chat / a realtime channel.
(4) a knowledge base
(5) a broadcast / external-facing medium

It sounds like the proposal here is to use Discourse for both (1) and (2).
All of the above become (4) if they are archived, but there is also the
wiki (which I didn't know about) and of course the website and docs. Anyone
can tweet @racketlang for (5), I guess. And we haven't really talked about
(3) yet.

Some considerations people have brought up include:

*Noise*: I agree that Discourse is likely to have more volume. As a result,
simply using it in mailing list mode isn't exactly a 1-to-1 replacement,
since the volume of emails would be higher, making it less appropriate for
announcements. It would be nice to be able to have more fine-grained
controls over which messages get emailed (e.g. in terms of category or
activity). The other (complementary, in my view) option is to use digest
mode. In traditional mailing lists we pick one or the other. In Discourse,
it seems that if you visit the site, it doesn't send you the digest for
that day. It would be nice if it could be configured to always send a
digest, to actually emulate mailing list behavior. Finally, I did notice
that I wasn't able to reply to a Discourse post from my phone. It looked
like my phone email client was using the default sender instead of the
Discourse-specific one. I don't recall that happening in similar situations
before, but it's entirely possible that this is a problem with my email
client. In any case, with these improvements, I do think Discourse could be
compelling as a replacement for the mailing list for most people.

*Open source*: I agree this is an important criterion (which is one reason
you'll find me on IRC rather than Discord or Slack). Phil's point that
Google Groups isn't open source while Discourse is, seems a compelling
argument for Discourse here.

*Terms of service*: Can't believe I signed my rights away to company_name
without even reading applicable_laws in jurisdiction_here.




On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 9:19 AM Sage Gerard  wrote:

> Mozilla's notes on their own instance summarizes an email-exclusive
> workflow well.
>
> https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279
>
> On 11/22/21 12:16 PM, 'John Clements' via Racket Users wrote:
> > Yes, I believe that replies by email are currently enabled. Here, let me
> test that.
> >
> > …
> >
> > Oh, yeah… can’t do that, the incoming email address isn’t the one that I
> send from. Sigh. Perhaps someone else can try this?
> >
> > One thing that I know isn’t set up yet is starting a new topic by email.
> I know it’s possible, but somebody needs to read the docs and check what’s
> required in order to set it up.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Nov 22, 2021, at 11:56, Sage Gerard  wrote:
> >>
> >> Y'all are configuring Discourse to allow replies by emails too, right?
> >>
> >> On 11/22/21 11:00 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 15:25, Martin Weigele 
> wrote:
> >>> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts
> again and
> >>> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
> >>> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a
> much
> >>> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
> >>> client, with a completely standard UI.
> >>>
> >>> Discourse has a mailing list mode each user can choose to enable which
> allows them to receive every post to their mail client, so you can continue
> to use your mail client workflow for following messages over there as well.
> >>>
> >>> - Ryan
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Racket Users" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/CA%2B952WrzFB-FVWzn0%3DmES3kLd5XsU6gXqG8Vi8gij7Fz0J_Qgw%40mail.gmail.com
> .
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Racket Users" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/37a16e37-a38f-906f-3f7a-4c008e5a0a76%40sagegerard.com
> .
> > --
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> 

Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Sage Gerard]

Mozilla's notes on their own instance summarizes an email-exclusive
workflow well.

https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/how-do-i-use-discourse-via-email/15279

On 11/22/21 12:16 PM, 'John Clements' via Racket Users wrote:
> Yes, I believe that replies by email are currently enabled. Here, let me test 
> that.
>
> …
>
> Oh, yeah… can’t do that, the incoming email address isn’t the one that I send 
> from. Sigh. Perhaps someone else can try this?
>
> One thing that I know isn’t set up yet is starting a new topic by email. I 
> know it’s possible, but somebody needs to read the docs and check what’s 
> required in order to set it up.
>
> John
>
>> On Nov 22, 2021, at 11:56, Sage Gerard  wrote:
>>
>> Y'all are configuring Discourse to allow replies by emails too, right?
>>
>> On 11/22/21 11:00 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 15:25, Martin Weigele  wrote:
>>> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again and
>>> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
>>> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much
>>> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
>>> client, with a completely standard UI.
>>>
>>> Discourse has a mailing list mode each user can choose to enable which 
>>> allows them to receive every post to their mail client, so you can continue 
>>> to use your mail client workflow for following messages over there as well.
>>>
>>> - Ryan
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "Racket Users" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/CA%2B952WrzFB-FVWzn0%3DmES3kLd5XsU6gXqG8Vi8gij7Fz0J_Qgw%40mail.gmail.com.
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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

['John Clements' via Racket Users]

Yes, I believe that replies by email are currently enabled. Here, let me test 
that.

…

Oh, yeah… can’t do that, the incoming email address isn’t the one that I send 
from. Sigh. Perhaps someone else can try this?

One thing that I know isn’t set up yet is starting a new topic by email. I know 
it’s possible, but somebody needs to read the docs and check what’s required in 
order to set it up.

John

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 11:56, Sage Gerard  wrote:
> 
> Y'all are configuring Discourse to allow replies by emails too, right?
> 
> On 11/22/21 11:00 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 15:25, Martin Weigele  wrote:
>> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again and 
>> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can 
>> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much 
>> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail 
>> client, with a completely standard UI.
>> 
>> Discourse has a mailing list mode each user can choose to enable which 
>> allows them to receive every post to their mail client, so you can continue 
>> to use your mail client workflow for following messages over there as well.
>> 
>> - Ryan
>> -- 
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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Sage Gerard]

Y'all are configuring Discourse to allow replies by emails too, right?

On 11/22/21 11:00 AM, J. Ryan Stinnett wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 15:25, Martin Weigele  wrote:
>
>> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again and
>> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
>> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much
>> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
>> client, with a completely standard UI.
>
> Discourse has a mailing list mode each user can choose to enable which allows 
> them to receive every post to their mail client, so you can continue to use 
> your mail client workflow for following messages over there as well.
>
> - Ryan
> --
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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Sage Gerard]

To add, since I forgot about the spammer: By "leaving the list to die 
inactive," I am assuming that the list would not be co-opted and would still 
function just fine as an archive. But I would love to keep the option, even if 
I only have a small few people to talk to.

On 11/22/21 11:40 AM, Sage Gerard wrote:

> Since I missed the hallway I'll settle with a belated comment.
>
> Over my lifetime I have accumulated hundreds of accounts. Breaches led to 
> incessant spamming. Thankfully I've kept my passwords varied and strong, so 
> the damage hasn't terrible to contain. I tried to delete accounts to manage 
> my risk, only to learn just how hard it is to do that as a U.S. citizen. In 
> the case of Google, I already had a Google account so I didn't figure the 
> mailing list would worsen my situation much.
>
> Point is, I do due diligence now. Adding an account means another legal 
> agreement, another privacy policy, another social structure, and another 
> increase in my personal attack surface. I know maintaining a mailing list is 
> a PITA regardless of its usefulness, so I totally understand moving to 
> Discourse. I just don't understand this habit of "we're doing this, we want 
> you to do it too" with sunsetting overtones. 1) it sounds like I'm doing 
> someone a favor, and 2) this sounds like when someone first said "Racket2", 
> and I should probably get the fuck outta here before someone throws something.
>
> I know I'm being dramatic, but please consider just leaving the list to die 
> inactive if that is to be its fate. The messaging I'm seeing keeps messing 
> with the community messaging about backwards compatibility, and it's super 
> confusing.
>
> On 11/22/21 10:24 AM, Martin Weigele wrote:
>
>> Am Montag, 22. November 2021, 16:16:35 CET schrieb Jens Axel Søgaard:
>>
>>> There are no plans of closing the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Things take time.
>>>
>>> Different forums for communication have different strengths.
>>
>> Exactly
>>
>>> Discourse might attract an audience that is unfamiliar to mailing lists.
>>> There is no need to rush things however.
>>> In due course maybe the number of users on the forum will
>>> grow to outshadow the number of participants on the mailing list,
>>> but it will take some years.
>>
>> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again and
>> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
>> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much
>> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
>> client, with a completely standard UI.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Martin
>>
>> --
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/2080281.KiezcSG77Q%40castor
>> .
>
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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Sage Gerard]

Since I missed the hallway I'll settle with a belated comment.

Over my lifetime I have accumulated hundreds of accounts. Breaches led to 
incessant spamming. Thankfully I've kept my passwords varied and strong, so the 
damage hasn't terrible to contain. I tried to delete accounts to manage my 
risk, only to learn just how hard it is to do that as a U.S. citizen. In the 
case of Google, I already had a Google account so I didn't figure the mailing 
list would worsen my situation much.

Point is, I do due diligence now. Adding an account means another legal 
agreement, another privacy policy, another social structure, and another 
increase in my personal attack surface. I know maintaining a mailing list is a 
PITA regardless of its usefulness, so I totally understand moving to Discourse. 
I just don't understand this habit of "we're doing this, we want you to do it 
too" with sunsetting overtones. 1) it sounds like I'm doing someone a favor, 
and 2) this sounds like when someone first said "Racket2", and I should 
probably get the fuck outta here before someone throws something.

I know I'm being dramatic, but please consider just leaving the list to die 
inactive if that is to be its fate. The messaging I'm seeing keeps messing with 
the community messaging about backwards compatibility, and it's super confusing.

On 11/22/21 10:24 AM, Martin Weigele wrote:

> Am Montag, 22. November 2021, 16:16:35 CET schrieb Jens Axel Søgaard:
>
>> There are no plans of closing the mailing list.
>>
>> Things take time.
>>
>> Different forums for communication have different strengths.
>
> Exactly
>
>> Discourse might attract an audience that is unfamiliar to mailing lists.
>> There is no need to rush things however.
>> In due course maybe the number of users on the forum will
>> grow to outshadow the number of participants on the mailing list,
>> but it will take some years.
>
> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again and
> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much
> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
> client, with a completely standard UI.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
> --
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> "Racket Users" group.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/racket-users/2080281.KiezcSG77Q%40castor
> .

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Philip McGrath]

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 10:16:49 AM UTC-5 Jens Axel Søgaard wrote:

> There is no need to rush things however. 
> In due course maybe the number of users on the forum will
> grow to outshadow the number of participants on the mailing list,
> but it will take some years. 
>

This was my opinion until the last few weeks, but I've become convinced 
that doing nothing is no longer a viable option.

It appears that some Gmail spam filter has decided that 
racket-users@googlegroups.com 
is a suspicious email address. It seems like roughly half of the legitimate 
traffic on the list is never reaching me and being marked as spam (at one 
of two or three hops on its way—but I have every reason to believe the 
situation would be as bad or worse for a new subscriber with a less 
convoluted email setup, especially since even mail from people I've 
corresponded with directly is being marked as spam). This seems reasonable, 
actually, since the Google Groups filters don't seem to be stopping a very 
high proportion of total traffic on the list from consisting of all-caps 
spam in Italian with some obviously-off-topic keywords.

I understood John's email not as a threat to shut down this list 
immediately, but as a call for those (like me) who have been skeptical of 
Discourse to give it a serious try and look for any actual, concrete 
problems, with an eye toward making it the primary Racket communication 
channel. The points raised about the terms of service seem like a good 
example of this. Hopefully they can be fixed. If Discourse's "mailing-list 
mode" works well enough that people like me can treat it like a generic 
mailing list, while people who want a fancy web app can use it, that seems 
ideal. The discussion yesterday about starting new topics by email seems 
important, if that's the goal: 
https://racket.discourse.group/t/how-to-enable-mailing-list-mode/167/3

As someone not involved in the decision-making process, I also want to say 
(more in response to previous discussions than this one) that hosting a 
high-volume public mailing list like racket-users is not a trivial job. I 
have enough experience running Postfix to know I shouldn't volunteer. Take 
note, for example, of the multi-billion-dollar corporation that isn't doing 
an adequate job hosting this list currently. It's also worth emphasizing 
that Discourse is free/libre and open source software under the 
GPL-2.0-or-later. Google Groups is not!

Finally, I think this would be a great area for the Software Freedom 
Conservancy to provide support. I'm sure Racket isn't the only project 
facing these questions. At a minimum, it would be good to have them review 
the legal boilerplate, since some of them are lawyers and I, for one, am 
not. If there were some concrete reason not to use the hosting generously 
offered at no charge by the company Civilized Discourse Construction Kit, 
Inc. (but at first glance they seem to be doing many things right), perhaps 
the Conservancy could provide hosting for Racket and other member projects. 
If ultimately we were to determine that Discourse wouldn't work as a 
mailing-list replacement—but I think we should seriously try it before 
jumping to that conclusion!—I've noted before that the Conservancy hosts a 
few mailing lists: https://lists.sfconservancy.org Mailman 2 would be a 
step in the wrong direction as far as friendly UI, but I've been impressed 
by Mailman 3 with HyperKitty (also more than the Google Groups web UI, 
which I've never especially liked): e.g. 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org/ 
Presumably they will upgrade their server to Debian 11 and get that 
improvement (https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/mailman3-full).

-Philip
 

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[J. Ryan Stinnett]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 15:25, Martin Weigele  wrote:

> A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again
> and
> again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can
> concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much
> better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail
> client, with a completely standard UI.


Discourse has a mailing list mode each user can choose to enable which
allows them to receive every post to their mail client, so you can continue
to use your mail client workflow for following messages over there as well.

- Ryan

>

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Martin Weigele]

Am Montag, 22. November 2021, 16:16:35 CET schrieb Jens Axel Søgaard:

> There are no plans of closing the mailing list.
> 
> Things take time.
> 
> Different forums for communication have different strengths.

Exactly 

> Discourse might attract an audience that is unfamiliar to mailing lists.
> There is no need to rush things however.
> In due course maybe the number of users on the forum will
> grow to outshadow the number of participants on the mailing list,
> but it will take some years.

A discourse type forum - we had this discussions in other contexts again and 
again - may be a better choice for persons who have the luxury they can 
concentrate on very few thingies. For all others, mailinglists are a much 
better choice, you can follow many developments in one place: your mail 
client, with a completely standard UI.

Cheers
Martin



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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Jens Axel Søgaard]

There are no plans of closing the mailing list.

Things take time.

Different forums for communication have different strengths.
Discourse might attract an audience that is unfamiliar to mailing lists.
There is no need to rush things however.
In due course maybe the number of users on the forum will
grow to outshadow the number of participants on the mailing list,
but it will take some years.

/Søgaard


“Put up in a place
where it is easy to see
the cryptic admonishment
T.T.T

When you feel how depressingly
slowly you climb
it's well to remember that
Things Take Time.”- Piet Hein




Den man. 22. nov. 2021 kl. 14.06 skrev Etan Wexler :

> The stewards of Racket  have decided that it’s
> time to give up on the mailing list (that is, racket-users
> , to which this message is
> a contribution). The stewards of Racket  have
> designated another forum for Racket  as
> the successor to racket-users
> . This other forum for
> discussing Racket  has as its basis the
> software named “Discourse” , which is
> open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to the Discursive
> forum for Racket . Enlisting is
> prerequisite to receiving as Internet mail the contributions to the
> Discursive forum for Racket . The
> stewards of Racket  have published a facility
> for enlisting as a participant in the Discursive forum for Racket
> .
>


-- 
-- 
Jens Axel Søgaard

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

['John Clements' via Racket Users]

I’m … super confused by this message. Did I miss something? I feel like this 
message has a subtext that I’m completely missing.

John

> On Nov 22, 2021, at 08:06, Etan Wexler  wrote:
> 
> The stewards of Racket have decided that it’s time to give up on the mailing 
> list (that is, racket-users, to which this message is a contribution). The 
> stewards of Racket have designated another forum for Racket as the successor 
> to racket-users. This other forum for discussing Racket has as its basis the 
> software named “Discourse”, which is open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite 
> to contributing to the Discursive forum for Racket. Enlisting is prerequisite 
> to receiving as Internet mail the contributions to the Discursive forum for 
> Racket. The stewards of Racket have published a facility for enlisting as a 
> participant in the Discursive forum for Racket.
> 

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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[Sage Gerard]

If anyone here still has demand for a vanilla email list, please reach out to 
me.

On 11/22/21 9:40 AM, David Storrs wrote:

> That's sudden.
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 8:06 AM Etan Wexler  wrote:
>
>> The stewards of [Racket](https://racket-lang.org/) have decided that it’s 
>> time to give up on the mailing list (that is, 
>> [racket-users](https://groups.google.com/group/racket-users), to which this 
>> message is a contribution). The stewards of 
>> [Racket](https://racket-lang.org/) have designated [another forum for 
>> Racket](https://racket.discourse.group/) as the successor to 
>> [racket-users](https://groups.google.com/group/racket-users). [This other 
>> forum for discussing Racket](https://racket.discourse.group/) has as its 
>> basis [the software named “Discourse”](https://www.discourse.org/), which is 
>> open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to [the Discursive 
>> forum for Racket](https://racket.discourse.group/). Enlisting is 
>> prerequisite to receiving as Internet mail the contributions to [the 
>> Discursive forum for Racket](https://racket.discourse.group/). The stewards 
>> of [Racket](https://racket-lang.org/) have published [a facility for 
>> enlisting as a participant in the Discursive forum for 
>> Racket](https://racket.discourse.group/invites/okLTSrQw1T).
>
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Re: the end of the [racket-users] mailing list and the migration to Discourse as a forum for Racket

[David Storrs]

That's sudden.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 8:06 AM Etan Wexler  wrote:

> The stewards of Racket  have decided that it’s
> time to give up on the mailing list (that is, racket-users
> , to which this message is
> a contribution). The stewards of Racket  have
> designated another forum for Racket  as
> the successor to racket-users
> . This other forum for
> discussing Racket  has as its basis the
> software named “Discourse” , which is
> open‐source. Enlisting is prerequisite to contributing to the Discursive
> forum for Racket . Enlisting is
> prerequisite to receiving as Internet mail the contributions to the
> Discursive forum for Racket . The
> stewards of Racket  have published a facility
> for enlisting as a participant in the Discursive forum for Racket
> .
>

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