Re: [RBW] Re: Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Joe,
I like pretty also and, like you, am willing to pay the extra.  I still
plan to get the Homer.  I don't ever want to look back and wish I had.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I think a major difference between Homer and Sam is the Sam's sloping
> toptube vs. Homer's more traditional flatter one. This splits the
> difference for me because I prefer the lower standover of Riv's newer
> models, but like the Homer look better. Well I'm vain and if it's my money,
> I'm paying more for looks. I think the aesthetic detail differences between
> the two are more pronounced than the ride, and I'll pay for "more pretty".
> Get the Homer..you're not in the market for a Sam.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Steve,
Thanks for the info.  I guess if I go back to a triple, the granny gear
would be nice.  A 10 speed 12-30 with 24-34-44 seems to have a decent range.

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS=24,34,44=12,13,14,15,17,19,21,24,27,30=2200=90=2.6=MPH

I'll keep playing with this and with whoever does the build to make sure it
can all work together.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 7:28 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> 10 tooth differences are great.  Crossing over from the large to the
> smaller, either you are in a hurry to get your shift completed, so you
> upshift once in back and you're at the next step down, or if you're not in
> a hurry, you make the shift and wait one or two heartbeats and you've
> slowed down just enough so your cadence is in the correct range and you're
> at the next step down.  Where they don't offer as much as the wider spaced
> rings is in the maximum range.  But if your lowest gears are low enough for
> your strength and riding territory, they're a whole lot more pleasant to
> live with in day to day use.
>
> The way I use mine (36/46 or 36/48 with a 24 or 26T granny) I'm on the big
> ring 90% of the time.  I stay on the big ring until I need lower than
> around 50 inches, and then cross over.  I'm not a fan of small chain rings
> and tiny sprockets as a way to get reasonable cruising gears.  I'd rather
> put my 65-75 inch gears on the big ring and the middle of the cassette.
> I'm also a big fan of Sheldon's 13-30 9 speed cassette.  Depending on the
> wheel size, 46 or 48 x 13 gives me a top gear between 95 and 100 inches,
> which is just right for me.  It's a high gear I'll use on every ride, and
> on the short rollers where I ride I have no need for a top gear higher than
> 100.  I'm not sprinting and I don't pedal down long mountain descents.
> (Me, it's like dropping a piano off the Chrysler Building, look out, boys!)
>
> But, it all has to work for you, in the terrain you ride in.
>
>
> On 05/29/2016 09:21 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Steve,
> Thanks for the reality check.  I did a different check and agree, 4mph is
> a bit too slow at 90 cadence. :)  I found another neat, sharable tool.
> What do you think of this combination?
>
>
> http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS=36,46=11,12,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32=2200=90=2.6=MPH
>
> The 36t ring should be all I need for a while.  Maybe some day I'll
> graduate to the 46t ring.  The 34-50 might be possible, but the 36-46 seems
> a better fit.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 05/29/2016 05:15 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with
>> Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t
>> crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range
>> of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of
>> gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come
>> in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the
>> back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what
>> would you think of that range?
>>
>>
>> It's not just the range.   Here's your proposed gearing (if not the exact
>> cassette, close to it):
>>
>> 63.8 98.2
>> 54.0 83.1
>> 46.8 72.0
>> 41.3 63.5
>> 36.9 56.8
>> 33.4 51.4
>> 29.2 45.0
>> 25.1 38.6
>> 21.9 33.8
>> 19.5 30.0
>> 17.6 27.0
>> A good general rule is you want your main cruising gear, the one you use
>> for level ground w/o winds helping or hindering, to be in the middle of the
>> cassette.  Here you are on the 3rd position.  Going up has one moderate
>> step and one pretty large one.  Going down, you have plenty - enough so
>> that for anything but seriously hilly country you need never go to the
>> small ring.  But when you do, look at what happens:  you drop so much
>> you'll feel as though you dropped the chain, and will have to immediately
>> upshift two to four times to get to the "next lower" gear, depending on
>> where you are on the cassette.  That can be hard to live with.  Also, 17.6
>> is exceptionally low.  Most people only have a use for a gear that low in
>> the most severe terrain when they are carrying loaded panniers front and
>> rear.
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

I think a major difference between Homer and Sam is the Sam's sloping toptube 
vs. Homer's more traditional flatter one. This splits the difference for me 
because I prefer the lower standover of Riv's newer models, but like the Homer 
look better. Well I'm vain and if it's my money, I'm paying more for looks. I 
think the aesthetic detail differences between the two are more pronounced than 
the ride, and I'll pay for "more pretty". Get the Homer..you're not in the 
market for a Sam.

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[RBW] FS: Frames, Rack, Fenders, Shifters, Stems, etc.

[Jack B]

Riv content: Selling these items to help fund a Sam Hillborne :)
Items ship from Portland, OR

*Velo Orange Campeur F/F/HS*, 63cm x 63cm:  $375 + $50 shipping
Ridden ~1,500 miles, great condition. Frame treated w/ Boeshield when new.
Headset is VO’s Grand Cru, installed by VO.
pics here show complete bike in various setups:  
https://goo.gl/photos/58eRFcb31anBsspZA
This bike is still assembled so local buyers could test ride. Would ship in 
1-2 weeks.

*mid-1970’s Dawes Galaxy F/F*, 64cm x 58cm: $125 + $25
Root beer brown, great lugs & details, Reynolds 531 tubing.
Includes original rear rack (not pictured, but see catalog).
Will throw in original maxy cranks (52/40, 171), GB stem, GB drop bars (w/ 
bulb storage at bar ends!) , Downtube shifters, FD if desired (unless 
claimed already below).
Would make a great Resurrectio project. Decals mostly on top for easy 
removal.
pics here:  https://goo.gl/photos/VEG16NtGUdMTm1m87
catalog pages A3 & B7 are relevant here: 
http://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Dawes-77/

*Nitto M12 front rack*, canti-mount: $60 shipped / $45 w/frame  (no pics 
yet)

*Suntour Barcons*: $30 shipped / $25 w/frame
Kinda scuffed up. Bought used and never installed –— untested.

*VO fenders* 45mm stainless/smooth, new in package: $40 w/ frame purchase 
(not interested in shipping solo)

*IRD bottom bracket*, 68x122, new in box (installed, never ridden):  $15 
shipped

*Some other stuff not worth shipping alone, but free/cheap if you buy 
anything above:*

*Seatpost* Generic 27.2: $10

*Nitto ‘Young’ stem*, ~9cm (not mint…a beater): $10

*Specialized stem*, ~10cm (Nitto-made): $10

*GB stem*, ~9cm: free

*Maxy double crankset*, 52/40, 171mm: $15

*Suntour downtube shifters* w/ clamp: free

Photos of most items:
https://goo.gl/photos/MWkHXbL86wG6fLGy8

thanks,
Jack

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

10 tooth differences are great.  Crossing over from the large to the 
smaller, either you are in a hurry to get your shift completed, so you 
upshift once in back and you're at the next step down, or if you're not 
in a hurry, you make the shift and wait one or two heartbeats and you've 
slowed down just enough so your cadence is in the correct range and 
you're at the next step down.  Where they don't offer as much as the 
wider spaced rings is in the maximum range.  But if your lowest gears 
are low enough for your strength and riding territory, they're a whole 
lot more pleasant to live with in day to day use.


The way I use mine (36/46 or 36/48 with a 24 or 26T granny) I'm on the 
big ring 90% of the time.  I stay on the big ring until I need lower 
than around 50 inches, and then cross over.  I'm not a fan of small 
chain rings and tiny sprockets as a way to get reasonable cruising 
gears.  I'd rather put my 65-75 inch gears on the big ring and the 
middle of the cassette.  I'm also a big fan of Sheldon's 13-30 9 speed 
cassette.  Depending on the wheel size, 46 or 48 x 13 gives me a top 
gear between 95 and 100 inches, which is just right for me.  It's a high 
gear I'll use on every ride, and on the short rollers where I ride I 
have no need for a top gear higher than 100. I'm not sprinting and I 
don't pedal down long mountain descents. (Me, it's like dropping a piano 
off the Chrysler Building, look out, boys!)


But, it all has to work for you, in the terrain you ride in.

On 05/29/2016 09:21 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Steve,
Thanks for the reality check.  I did a different check and agree, 4mph 
is a bit too slow at 90 cadence. :)  I found another neat, sharable 
tool.  What do you think of this combination?


http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS=36,46=11,12,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32=2200=90=2.6=MPH

The 36t ring should be all I need for a while.  Maybe some day I'll 
graduate to the 46t ring.  The 34-50 might be possible, but the 36-46 
seems a better fit.


Tim



On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Steve Palincsar > wrote:



On 05/29/2016 05:15 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further
playing with Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the
Sugino XD2 26t-40t crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette,
that would provide a range of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From
17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of gear inches.  I not sure if I
would use either extreme, but they might come in handy if I ever
needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the back
rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills,
what would you think of that range?


It's not just the range.   Here's your proposed gearing (if not
the exact cassette, close to it):

63.898.2
54.083.1
46.872.0
41.363.5
36.956.8
33.451.4
29.245.0
25.138.6
21.933.8
19.530.0
17.627.0


A good general rule is you want your main cruising gear, the one
you use for level ground w/o winds helping or hindering, to be in
the middle of the cassette.  Here you are on the 3rd position. 
Going up has one moderate step and one pretty large one.  Going

down, you have plenty - enough so that for anything but seriously
hilly country you need never go to the small ring.  But when you
do, look at what happens:  you drop so much you'll feel as though
you dropped the chain, and will have to immediately upshift two to
four times to get to the "next lower" gear, depending on where you
are on the cassette.  That can be hard to live with.  Also, 17.6
is exceptionally low.  Most people only have a use for a gear that
low in the most severe terrain when they are carrying loaded
panniers front and rear.


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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

René,
Thanks for that information.  That René Herse crankset sure looks nice.
What you described is kind of like this:

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS=26,42=11,13,15,17,19,21,24,28,32,36=2200=90=2.6=MPH

Is this right?  From what Steve had mentioned before, I interpreted (or
misinterpreted) something like this as being too large of a jump between
chainrings.Is the 26/42 not too wide of a gap?  For some reason, I
thought they should be closer together.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 3:17 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> I still have a hard time understanding all these gearing calculations, so
> here is what works for me, FWIW:
> - On my stock triple Sugino crankset provided Homer and Atlantis, I've
> gone to the 12-36 9 speed cassette and never use the large 46 ring, except
> on downhills. On the Betty stock 26/40 crankset with the 650b 38mm tires, I
> have a 9 speed 12-34 and that has been perfect for all the hills around
> Palo Alto. Therefore, I modified the Hunqapillar after it's conversion to
> low trail with a 24/38 crankset that proved to be "perfect for me" and I
> loved the down tube shifting for just two rings on the front, vs. having to
> always look down to position the FD correctly for the middle ring on the
> triple setups. That's why I'm about to switch that crankset to the
> Atlantis. Since the Homer is going to go to my son, so it stays in the
> family, for now at least, I'll leave it as is, with the triple and the
> 12-36. My son will use the large front ring a lot more than I will, at
> least until I lose the remaining 40+ lbs.
>
> On my upcoming 650b custom, I chose to go 2x10 with a 26/42 René Herse
> crankset and 11-36 in the back. The Betty was very influential in choosing
> this setup.
>
> On my Bike Friday, I have just removed the Shimano triple (Tiagra) and
> switched to a 2x10 setup: René Herse 36/52 with 11/36 in the back. I'm
> still playing with this setup as there is a bit of rubbing when pedaling
> with the chain on the large ring between the chain and the derailleur. I
> believe the ring is flat, so the flex comes from the flexible frame, but I
> have yet to troubleshoot it. There was no rubbing with the 9 speed triple,
> so more investigation is needed. BTW, the RH crankset and rings are just
> really beautiful and well made. Perhaps one will make it to the Atlantis as
> well. I like the design, the principles behind it and the fact I can get
> any ring combination I may ever want. And so far, I think the 171 crank
> length is really suited for my higher cadence pedaling style, as well as
> how I have been positioning myself on the bike.
>
> René (still confused about gearing ratios but loving it!)
>
>
> On Sunday, May 29, 2016, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
>> I should have added that one purpose of my gearing setups is to limit
>> most riding to one ring.
>>
>> As Steve indicated, you want to consider not only range, but also:
>>
>> Cruising (ie, most riding and most wear) chainline
>> Ease of shifting
>>
>> as well as:
>> Cruising gear spacing
>> Size of most used cogs (efficiency, wear)
>> Type of derailleurs
>> Q factor
>> Availability of components
>> And even crank length -- I find that I gear up 1 tooth with 175s compared
>> to 170s.
>>
>> Patrick "nothing is simple if you make it complicated" Moore, who prefers
>> the simplicity of single cogs on his road bikes.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Patrick Moore 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Range is as personal as saddles or crank length, since depends on
>>> pedaling style as well as fitness. I'm not particularly fit by any means,
>>> but a sub 20" gear would simply gather dust on my bikes. I *would* use
>>> an 18" gear on a bike set up for steep singletrack at altitude, and I
>>> daresay, for loaded touring, but not for anything around town.
>>>
>>> I live in rolling terrain and often carry (rear) loads, and find that
>>> even with a 30 lb load, a longish hill, and a headwind, I'd not want
>>> anything lower than a gear in the low 20s, particularly if more extreme
>>> gears at the ends interferes with closer ratios in the middle. Likewise,
>>> I'd never use a 98" gear either, and find a range between say 85" and 30"
>>> fine for the sort of pavement and dirt riding I do, loaded or not.
>>>
>>> On my erstwhile Fargo, I had the X2D set up with Guard/38/24, and a
>>> 13-27 t 9 speed (friction, Silvers) which gave me a 40" low on the 38,
>>> enough for most paved hills, and a 25" bailout, which I don't think I ever
>>> used. But I had close middle ratios:
>>>
>>> 38.0 24.0
>>> 13.0 83.3
>>> 14.0 77.4 48.9
>>> 15.0 72.2 45.6
>>> 16.0 67.7 42.8
>>> 17.0 63.7 40.2
>>> 18.0 60.2 38.0
>>> 20.0 54.2 34.2
>>> 23.0 47.1 29.7
>>> 27.0 40.1 25.3
>>> Since I am limited to wide Q on the Fargo replacement Matthews due to
>>> the width of the stays (minimum would be no less than 168; presently
>>> 173-175 -- but then I can also run 3" 559 mm Knards should I want 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,
Thanks for that info and for relating your experience.  I think I posted
some slightly saner gearing in my reply to Steve and I liked what Brian had
also.  That HTML5 gear calculator is an interesting tool.  I like the
ability to copy the URL to share a setup.  With the great help from this
group, I should end up with a nicely usable set of gears.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Range is as personal as saddles or crank length, since depends on pedaling
> style as well as fitness. I'm not particularly fit by any means, but a sub
> 20" gear would simply gather dust on my bikes. I *would* use an 18" gear
> on a bike set up for steep singletrack at altitude, and I daresay, for
> loaded touring, but not for anything around town.
>
> I live in rolling terrain and often carry (rear) loads, and find that even
> with a 30 lb load, a longish hill, and a headwind, I'd not want anything
> lower than a gear in the low 20s, particularly if more extreme gears at the
> ends interferes with closer ratios in the middle. Likewise, I'd never use a
> 98" gear either, and find a range between say 85" and 30" fine for the sort
> of pavement and dirt riding I do, loaded or not.
>
> On my erstwhile Fargo, I had the X2D set up with Guard/38/24, and a 13-27
> t 9 speed (friction, Silvers) which gave me a 40" low on the 38, enough for
> most paved hills, and a 25" bailout, which I don't think I ever used. But I
> had close middle ratios:
>
> 38.0 24.0
> 13.0 83.3
> 14.0 77.4 48.9
> 15.0 72.2 45.6
> 16.0 67.7 42.8
> 17.0 63.7 40.2
> 18.0 60.2 38.0
> 20.0 54.2 34.2
> 23.0 47.1 29.7
> 27.0 40.1 25.3
> Since I am limited to wide Q on the Fargo replacement Matthews due to the
> width of the stays (minimum would be no less than 168; presently 173-175 --
> but then I can also run 3" 559 mm Knards should I want to) I decided to
> keep a triple and run Hi and Lo cruising ranges on 44 pavement and 40 dirt
> t big rings, with a 26" bailout. This gives me close ratios, a low enough
> range on dirt, and I can dump easily from pavement to dirt range without
> losing range or close spacing.
>
> 15.0 83.6 76.0
> 16.0 78.4 71.3
> 17.0 73.8 67.1
> 18.0 69.7 63.3
> 19.0 66.0 60.0 39.0
> 21.0 59.7 54.3 35.3
> 23.0 54.5 49.6 32.2
> 26.0 48.2 43.8 28.5
> 30.0 38.0 24.7
>
> This setup also gives me larger cogs and cruising gears with no or minimal
> chain deflection.
>
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 3:15 AM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with
>> Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t
>> crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range
>> of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of
>> gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come
>> in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the
>> back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what
>> would you think of that range?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What do folks think of wide cassettes?  There used to be a IRD/Riv 9
>>> speed 12-40 "Elite Wide", but that has been discontinued.  (I wish
>>> discontinued items were not so prominently placed, but that's a different
>>> issue.)  I found there is a Praxis 10 speed Wide Range 11-40 MTB cassette
>>> available.  That should still work with indexed DT or BE shifters like the
>>> Shimano 7900.  Since I'm weak, I wonder if this might be better than a
>>> standard road cassette like a 11-32.  I'm definitely going to need a low
>>> gear if I'm going to try climbing any hills.
>>>
>>> As for the DT vs BE shifters, I can see using either in rural areas.  My
>>> current leaning is toward 2x10 with 7900 DT shifters, indexed for the rear
>>> and friction for the front.  But, how might DT or BE shifters compare with
>>> brifters for urban usage?  Until I work up to it, most of my short-term use
>>> will be (small city) streets and paved MUP.  I'm wondering if brifters
>>> might work better in that environment.
>>>
>>> Thanks again for all of the advice and ideas.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
 first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
 sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
 purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
 was sort of rivish.
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

 Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
 using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
 Chicago to live 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Joe,
I think I'll stick with brifters for now until I spend more time out of the
city on more open roads.  I'm already used to that and it would be one less
thing to change or learn.  With a 10 speed, I can switch it up later if I
want.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> As I said somewhere earlier, DT is an acquired taste I haven't acquired.
> The choice between BE and brifters for a 2x system in the city is, IMO, two
> variations on the same idea of shifters on bars. I don't think one is
> "better" for the application, so I personally would choose BE because I
> like them. You'll be fine with either.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Brian,

Thanks for the info.  I agree with a test and learn phase, though I will
need to extend that to make sure my learn allows for a decent adaptation
period first.  To your specific points...

1. I'm wondering about this also.  I like my Ortlieb bar bag that I use now
(the only bag on the AWOL).  There's hardly anything in it other than a
small tool kit, spares, and keys.  For only a single bag, though I like
this one, I'm not sure where optimal weight placement will be.  But, I
could start with just this on the Homer and add the rear rack later if I
need to carry more in a trunk or to balance weight.  As you say, learn what
I need first, then add on.

2) That looks like this combination:

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS=30,46=12,13,14,15,17,19,21,24,27,30=2200=90=2.6=MPH

I could live with that.  It might be better than the 36-46 ring combination
I mentioned a little while ago.  For now, I may go with brifters, though
keeping the 10 speed so I can more easily switch to bar ends later if I
want.  Most of my early use will be in town and on the paved MUP with
traffic, people, and pets to contend with.  So far, I think it may be
easier to make a quick down downshift or several with brifters.  Later, if
I get where I am spending more time out of town and with fewer moving
obstacles, bar ends may make more sense.  If I ever get to where I wear out
the gear, it will have paid for itself and I won't mind changing if I feel
like it then.

3) The light and simple is where I started down this path.  I like it too.
I think I should still start closer to that, with a few basics, and then
add more later.  I think I should still get the dyno wheels as I don't
really have room for two sets.  Within the first six months, I would use
one small bag, lights and fenders.  Other than that, other things could
wait for later.

Thanks.

Tim





On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Brian Campbell 
wrote:

> Tim,
>
> Thanks! There are a lot of options to try so I would think about a "test
> and learn" phase after buying whatever Riv model you decide on. Mine has
> been built in many different configurations and for my preferences and
> riding ( I am 48 and live in South Eastern PA) I learned the following:
>
> 1. I don't carry a lot, so lots of racks and bags while they are useful,
> got no use. They only increased the weight going up hill. They allowed me
> to fill them for contingency plans that never came into play.
>
> 2. The gearing is 46/30 12-30 10 speed. I use the Dura Ace indexed
> downtube shifters. I switched from 10 speed indexed bar ends and have come
> to prefer the downtube shifting. I think maybe because I grew up on it.
> This bike had brifters as well. They worked fine but I never really go used
> to the shifting motions.
>
> 3. The bike has evolved over the the years and now I try to keep it light
> (relatively speaking) and simple.
>
> There are lots of great ways to build up a Riv. They are able to perform
> well in a number of configurations. I would not obese to much about trying
> to get everything "just so" before you ride whatever bike for a bit.
> Experimenting is part of the fun. There are many people on the list to buy
> or trade components with if you want to try a different setup but not spend
> too much on an experiment. There are many ways to enjoy a Rivendell and
> best of all they adapt well as you and your ideas about riding evolve over
> time.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Will,
Thanks for confirming the rack/bag combo.

As for the Sam, I think I need to pull out a car analogy.  I have owned
both of these, so should be qualified to compare.  For the person with
their heart set on an Audi S4, the VW Jetta is a poor substitute.  Both are
made by VW and both can seat four, but they are not the same.  That's how I
equate the Sam to the Homer.  I know Grant has commented on the
similarities in ride, but that's not all there is to it or he would not
sell both.

My commute to work is less than thirty feet as I work from home.  My use of
any bike is thus limited to fun and/or exercise.  For me, that means riding
around town and on the paved MUP or, maybe eventually, working up to a
century.  Other than saving some greenbacks, can you honestly tell me the
Sam will fulfill that role better than the Homer?  If there is a valid
non-financial reason to get the Sam, I'm listening.  Otherwise, there is a
bit of risk here.  If you convince me to not get a Homer, I may not get any
Riv or even any other bike.  I may just stick with what I have.  If you're
not comfortable discussing this on the public list, feel free to email me
privately.  Before I shatter a dream, I want to make sure the reason is
sound.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:45 AM, Will  wrote:

> Bingo you keep the Ortlieb front bag and match with Tubus/Ortlieb
> rear.
>
> I still think you should go back to the drawing board and give strong
> consideration to a "complete" Sam. It might be cheaper from a financial
> POV, but it is not cheaper from a visual or functional POV. The builders in
> Taiwan are equal to Waterford. Also you have additional wheel clearance and
> you have a tube set that Petersen obviously likes and strongly recommends.
> Both are stong signals.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 12:53:57 AM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Surlyprof  wrote:
>>
>>> You'll never regret a Mark's rack.  So handy.  I would second the
>>> suggestions of the Tubus Evo and panniers.  I have a Cosmo that I've moved
>>> across three different bikes.  It may be heavier duty than you want but it
>>> isn't that heavy and the ability to carry panniers low is really nice
>>> because handles well and it leaves the top portion for other things.  You
>>> may not need it often but when you do, it is nice to have.  I would buy the
>>> Logo over the Cosmo.  The two prongs sticking up on the Cosmo wore through
>>> my Saddlesack.  I had to reinforce it with leather.  That wouldn't have
>>> been a problem with the Logo.
>>>
>>
>>  I'm having some visual discord between a Tubus Logo Evo rear rack and a
>> Mark's front rack.  I would prefer they either both be black or both be
>> chrome, but would prefer to avoid a mismatch between them.  A silver
>> painted Logo wouldn't quite do it either.  I could get the Tubus Logo Evo
>> rear, but would need a matching black rack for the front.  I could get the
>> Marks' front, but would want a matching chrome rack for the rear.  Most of
>> the Tubus front seem oriented to panniers, which I'm not likely to use on
>> either end.  So, I could do my original guess of the Mark's front and the
>> Nitto R14 rear.  Or, I could do the Tubus Logo Evo rear, but would need
>> something for the font that was not pannier oriented.  Of course, I could
>> use the Tubus Logo Evo rear and keep my Ortleib Ultimate 6 Pro-M front
>> bar bag, not using a front rack at all.  Any further thoughts on this?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Steve,
Thanks for the reality check.  I did a different check and agree, 4mph is a
bit too slow at 90 cadence. :)  I found another neat, sharable tool.  What
do you think of this combination?

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS=36,46=11,12,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32=2200=90=2.6=MPH

The 36t ring should be all I need for a while.  Maybe some day I'll
graduate to the 46t ring.  The 34-50 might be possible, but the 36-46 seems
a better fit.

Tim



On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> On 05/29/2016 05:15 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with
> Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t
> crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range
> of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of
> gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come
> in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the
> back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what
> would you think of that range?
>
>
> It's not just the range.   Here's your proposed gearing (if not the exact
> cassette, close to it):
>
> 63.8 98.2
> 54.0 83.1
> 46.8 72.0
> 41.3 63.5
> 36.9 56.8
> 33.4 51.4
> 29.2 45.0
> 25.1 38.6
> 21.9 33.8
> 19.5 30.0
> 17.6 27.0
> A good general rule is you want your main cruising gear, the one you use
> for level ground w/o winds helping or hindering, to be in the middle of the
> cassette.  Here you are on the 3rd position.  Going up has one moderate
> step and one pretty large one.  Going down, you have plenty - enough so
> that for anything but seriously hilly country you need never go to the
> small ring.  But when you do, look at what happens:  you drop so much
> you'll feel as though you dropped the chain, and will have to immediately
> upshift two to four times to get to the "next lower" gear, depending on
> where you are on the cassette.  That can be hard to live with.  Also, 17.6
> is exceptionally low.  Most people only have a use for a gear that low in
> the most severe terrain when they are carrying loaded panniers front and
> rear.
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

The underlying philosophy of the Sam remains what it was, incarnated
permanently in carefully lugged steel. Beats me - I live in a less fluid
universe, apparently.

Well, we'll go back to Garth and say that "one person's perspective is as
good as another['s]", using this phrase as a provisional settlement to the
matter.

Patrick Moore, who has owned 5 Rivendells and still owns 2 of them, and who
likes the Doors and Beethoven, even though Jim and Ludovicus were assholes.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 6:38 PM, kielsun  wrote:

> My Sam would change for me because part of what I love about it are the
> underlying philosophy and ideas. The unparalleled ride is number one, but
> the other stuff matters, too.
>
> To give a non-bike-related metaphor: a few years back I got the chance to
> play a couple of shows with one of my favorite musicians/songwriters. He
> was a jerk with women and was generally not a nice guy. Did his songs about
> love and humanity and tenderness and mean as much to me afterwards?
> Hardly--I never listen to his music anymore.
>
> So the fact that the OP's views of Islabikes changed when she found out
> about this other side of their corporate identity makes total sense to me.
> And again, it makes even better sense to me that the idea of CF kids' bikes
> falls flatter than flat to most listers.
>
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Ride Report Gap-C & O Towpath

[ascpgh]

Very nice Howard, thanks for the pics and reports on the weather, trail 
conditions!

I could've shown you around town for a bit before going to work. 
Pittsburgh's cycling friendly and has lots of things to see, do, eat and 
drink by bike if you've got the time and a guide! 

Quite the hoot to knock around at night with good lights too. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:49:49 PM UTC-4, Howard Hatten wrote:
>
> Finished my ride last Saturday. Left Pittsburgh @ 5 AM, 33 degrees on 
> Monday morning. Explored the downtown for an hour or two then headed out. 
> Sky was sunny but cool. The next day brought cool rain and hazy conditions. 
> The rain stuck around most of the week making the C  & O very muddy. The 
> fenders on the Atlantis kept me very clean compared to others I encountered 
> along the way. I've ridden the Atlantis at Ragbrai and Dalmac in Michigan, 
> but I never realized  just how wonderful this bike is till this ride. 
> 1st time traveling by train with bike
> 1st rustic camping solo
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/136422809@N08/shares/69oU4R
>
> Howard
> Livonia Mi. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[kielsun]

My Sam would change for me because part of what I love about it are the 
underlying philosophy and ideas. The unparalleled ride is number one, but the 
other stuff matters, too.

To give a non-bike-related metaphor: a few years back I got the chance to play 
a couple of shows with one of my favorite musicians/songwriters. He was a jerk 
with women and was generally not a nice guy. Did his songs about love and 
humanity and tenderness and mean as much to me afterwards? Hardly--I never 
listen to his music anymore.

So the fact that the OP's views of Islabikes changed when she found out about 
this other side of their corporate identity makes total sense to me. And again, 
it makes even better sense to me that the idea of CF kids' bikes falls flatter 
than flat to most listers.



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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Bob.  I'll keep that in mind if I go that route.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:05 PM, kielsun  wrote:

> Tim,
>
> You can get silver Tubus racks from the German online stores. I just
> ordered a Tubus Tara from Bike24.
>
> Bob
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

If Grant designed a CF bicycle, I for one would be very interested in it
(assuming I could afford it, which is unlikely). Why? Because a
Rivendell-desiged CF bike would be a very nice riding and sturdy, and very
likely good looking bike. As the RR itself (via Bontrager) said in a long
ago article, material is the least important factor in frame design. Don't
let's confuse CF with silly design. Your Sam would remain exactly the same
as it was before.

Not that there is a snowball's chance in hell of Rivendell ever using CF.

Patrick Moore, who has no ideological animus against CF or any other frame
material.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 5:35 PM, kielsun  wrote:

> I'm zero percent surprised that CF kids' bikes don't get a warm welcome on
> this list. We gather here because of our love for or interest in Rivendell
> Bicycles--lugged steel frames for everyday use that are intended to grow in
> beauty through usage. CF bikes in general are the opposite of that. Whether
> or not that statement stems from drinking Riv-Koolaid doesn't matter to me
> in the least.
>
> How would we all feel if Grant's next Blug post was all about the
> brand-new, CF-forked, super lightweight pro line of Rivendells? I'd
> probably be pretty bummed and my Sam would lose a bit of its luster. Seems
> like the OP's reaction is pretty similar. The company marketed itself one
> way and is now doing something quite different.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[kielsun]

I'm zero percent surprised that CF kids' bikes don't get a warm welcome on this 
list. We gather here because of our love for or interest in Rivendell 
Bicycles--lugged steel frames for everyday use that are intended to grow in 
beauty through usage. CF bikes in general are the opposite of that. Whether or 
not that statement stems from drinking Riv-Koolaid doesn't matter to me in the 
least. 

How would we all feel if Grant's next Blug post was all about the brand-new, 
CF-forked, super lightweight pro line of Rivendells? I'd probably be pretty 
bummed and my Sam would lose a bit of its luster. Seems like the OP's reaction 
is pretty similar. The company marketed itself one way and is now doing 
something quite different.

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[RBW] FS: Kent Eriksen S Coupled Titanium Bike ::: Gravel / CX / Pave: Any Surface Fun (xpost from ibob)

[Anne]

Kent Eriksen builds an amazing bike and this one has ridiculously low miles 
on it. It’s never been my “daily rider” seeing use about one week each 
year. It needs to be ridden more! Makes a great option for any surface, 
takes wider tires, travel with ease, etc. This is pretty much a one bike to 
rule them all setup. American designed and built by multi-time NAHBS winner.

53.5 ETT, full geo in photos. Nice riding setup and recently updated the 
build to Ultegra 6800 (less than 250 miles on it). Ti couplers were an 
additional $1100 on top of the frame price.
Prices are net (any fees or shipping would be add'l)

Complete package (no pedals/saddle) $4275 +ship

What size tires will fit this? Anything from a 25 and up to Schwalbe G-Ones 
700x35 (caliper at 38 which fit easily), Maxxis Rambler 700x40 are aa great 
fit too.  Versatile bike and no hydro hassle if you want to box it for 
travel.

Build 
Eriksen ti S+S frame with rear rack mounts, blue seatpost collar, rear der. 
hanger
Reynolds Ouzo Pro Cross fork (great blue and gray matching color highlights)
Blue Chris King headset
Eriksen ti post (long)
Salsa Poco Bar and Ritchey WCS stem (90) (Note: This isn't on bike in 
photos and bars will be wrapped with Zevlin black with blue stitch tape)
TRP V-Brakes with SwissStop pads
Wheelset: White Industry T11 hubs (these things spin and spin and spin), 
28/32 DT Swiss spokes, brass nips laced to Pacenti SL23 rims.
Dura-Ace Skewers, new Vittoria Voyager Hyper 32 tires and Schwalbe SV18 
tubes. 
Ultegra 6800 levers, crankset (170, 46/34), bottom bracket, FD, RD (SGS med 
cage), cassette (11/32), cables/housing. 
Inline cable adjusters on the V-brakes with a second one for the rear brake.
DaVinci cable splitters
No pedals or saddle included.
S hard case that conforms to airline regs (26x26x10)
TSA security net
Set of compression members
Spanner wrench for the couplers


More photos and geo here (on ImageShack) 

Thanks for taking a look, hope to ship this to one of you that will ride it 
regularly.
Anne G / Middle of the Mitten




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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[kielsun]

Tim,

You can get silver Tubus racks from the German online stores. I just ordered a 
Tubus Tara from Bike24.

Bob

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[Deacon Patrick]

René,

I've replied off list with info on the "no man's land" of the dangers of 
eating above ketogenic, which keeps the liver from kicking in) but not 
enough to meet the body's daily needs. I suspect there is grey area on the 
number that divide low/low; medium/low; and high/low carb amounts, but the 
takeaway is that if you aren't eating ketogenically (and medical issues 
aside (brain and diabetes issues mainly), you should eat 200-600 gms of 
carb a day via "safe carb" sources (per the Perfect Health Diet).

Here's a link to a post exploring ideas on ketogenic: 
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-constant-ketosis-necessary-or-even-desirable/#axzz4A3um2b6C

With abandon,
Patrick 

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 3:55:40 PM UTC-6, René wrote:
>
>
> @Patrick: I'm confused about the higher vs. lower but avoiding the middle 
> ground with the Ketogenic diet. Can you point me to information about this? 
> I fully understand everything else you say, and I do understand the changes 
> don't happen overnight. But I know I feel great eating LCHF in general, and 
> would like to understand more about the Ketogenic approach as well.
>

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[RBW] Re: Squeaky bb needs to change?

[kielsun]

Thanks for starting this thread. It was the motivation I needed to deal with my 
squeaky bb. Snagged a replacement from my favorite LBS this afternoon.

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

As I said, nothing is simple if you complicate it. I've been fascinated by
gearing for 30 years at least; actually since my second bike build circa
1971 ("half stepped" an AW with 16 and 18 cogs). OTOH, my brother, whose
history is shorter but who knows more about bikes than I, simply doesn't
care about gearing -- if it feels good enough on the flats, on uphills, and
on downhills, he's happy. He really has no idea what cogs he uses. Me, I
can give you the exact gear inches of bikes I rode 30 or 40 years ago.
Hell, I even give great thought to fixed gear gearing.

Patrick Moore, who used to work out gear charts in staff meetings.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 4:17 PM, René Sterental  wrote:

> I still have a hard time understanding all these gearing calculations

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[RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[René Sterental]

I still have a hard time understanding all these gearing calculations, so
here is what works for me, FWIW:
- On my stock triple Sugino crankset provided Homer and Atlantis, I've gone
to the 12-36 9 speed cassette and never use the large 46 ring, except on
downhills. On the Betty stock 26/40 crankset with the 650b 38mm tires, I
have a 9 speed 12-34 and that has been perfect for all the hills around
Palo Alto. Therefore, I modified the Hunqapillar after it's conversion to
low trail with a 24/38 crankset that proved to be "perfect for me" and I
loved the down tube shifting for just two rings on the front, vs. having to
always look down to position the FD correctly for the middle ring on the
triple setups. That's why I'm about to switch that crankset to the
Atlantis. Since the Homer is going to go to my son, so it stays in the
family, for now at least, I'll leave it as is, with the triple and the
12-36. My son will use the large front ring a lot more than I will, at
least until I lose the remaining 40+ lbs.

On my upcoming 650b custom, I chose to go 2x10 with a 26/42 René Herse
crankset and 11-36 in the back. The Betty was very influential in choosing
this setup.

On my Bike Friday, I have just removed the Shimano triple (Tiagra) and
switched to a 2x10 setup: René Herse 36/52 with 11/36 in the back. I'm
still playing with this setup as there is a bit of rubbing when pedaling
with the chain on the large ring between the chain and the derailleur. I
believe the ring is flat, so the flex comes from the flexible frame, but I
have yet to troubleshoot it. There was no rubbing with the 9 speed triple,
so more investigation is needed. BTW, the RH crankset and rings are just
really beautiful and well made. Perhaps one will make it to the Atlantis as
well. I like the design, the principles behind it and the fact I can get
any ring combination I may ever want. And so far, I think the 171 crank
length is really suited for my higher cadence pedaling style, as well as
how I have been positioning myself on the bike.

René (still confused about gearing ratios but loving it!)

On Sunday, May 29, 2016, Patrick Moore > wrote:

> I should have added that one purpose of my gearing setups is to limit most
> riding to one ring.
>
> As Steve indicated, you want to consider not only range, but also:
>
> Cruising (ie, most riding and most wear) chainline
> Ease of shifting
>
> as well as:
> Cruising gear spacing
> Size of most used cogs (efficiency, wear)
> Type of derailleurs
> Q factor
> Availability of components
> And even crank length -- I find that I gear up 1 tooth with 175s compared
> to 170s.
>
> Patrick "nothing is simple if you make it complicated" Moore, who prefers
> the simplicity of single cogs on his road bikes.
>
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>
>> Range is as personal as saddles or crank length, since depends on
>> pedaling style as well as fitness. I'm not particularly fit by any means,
>> but a sub 20" gear would simply gather dust on my bikes. I *would* use
>> an 18" gear on a bike set up for steep singletrack at altitude, and I
>> daresay, for loaded touring, but not for anything around town.
>>
>> I live in rolling terrain and often carry (rear) loads, and find that
>> even with a 30 lb load, a longish hill, and a headwind, I'd not want
>> anything lower than a gear in the low 20s, particularly if more extreme
>> gears at the ends interferes with closer ratios in the middle. Likewise,
>> I'd never use a 98" gear either, and find a range between say 85" and 30"
>> fine for the sort of pavement and dirt riding I do, loaded or not.
>>
>> On my erstwhile Fargo, I had the X2D set up with Guard/38/24, and a 13-27
>> t 9 speed (friction, Silvers) which gave me a 40" low on the 38, enough for
>> most paved hills, and a 25" bailout, which I don't think I ever used. But I
>> had close middle ratios:
>>
>> 38.0 24.0
>> 13.0 83.3
>> 14.0 77.4 48.9
>> 15.0 72.2 45.6
>> 16.0 67.7 42.8
>> 17.0 63.7 40.2
>> 18.0 60.2 38.0
>> 20.0 54.2 34.2
>> 23.0 47.1 29.7
>> 27.0 40.1 25.3
>> Since I am limited to wide Q on the Fargo replacement Matthews due to the
>> width of the stays (minimum would be no less than 168; presently 173-175 --
>> but then I can also run 3" 559 mm Knards should I want to) I decided to
>> keep a triple and run Hi and Lo cruising ranges on 44 pavement and 40 dirt
>> t big rings, with a 26" bailout. This gives me close ratios, a low enough
>> range on dirt, and I can dump easily from pavement to dirt range without
>> losing range or close spacing.
>>
>> 15.0 83.6 76.0
>> 16.0 78.4 71.3
>> 17.0 73.8 67.1
>> 18.0 69.7 63.3
>> 19.0 66.0 60.0 39.0
>> 21.0 59.7 54.3 35.3
>> 23.0 54.5 49.6 32.2
>> 26.0 48.2 43.8 28.5
>> 30.0 38.0 24.7
>>
>> This setup also gives me larger cogs and cruising gears with no or
>> minimal chain deflection.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 3:15 AM, Tim Butterfield <
>> 

[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[René Sterental]

@Lungimsam: Thanks for the totally sensible approach and recommendations.
That's exactly how I'll approach it. It's funny that my 23 mile ride
yesterday felt horrible, everything hurt, but then in the evening, after
some brooding during the day, I took my wife out and we went to the movies
(Don't go to watch Lobster... It's so weird and potentially awful... Yet
interesting and baffling at the same time... H) and afterwards, when
talking about the movie which my wife found repulsive, I just decided that
there was no point in fretting and worrying and sabotaging myself over
this, and that I'd just ride to see how far I got. Then this morning I rode
31 miles and felt wonderful doing it. Well, the butt gets sore, but
otherwise it felt great. So thanks again for all the guidance.

@Patrick: I'm confused about the higher vs. lower but avoiding the middle
ground with the Ketogenic diet. Can you point me to information about this?
I fully understand everything else you say, and I do understand the changes
don't happen overnight. But I know I feel great eating LCHF in general, and
would like to understand more about the Ketogenic approach as well.

@Everyone: Your insights are invaluable. I'm now excited again about this
ride; I'll make sure I write a report and post photos. :-)

So awesome to have an extra free day tomorrow!!! Enjoy everyone!!!

René

On Sunday, May 29, 2016, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> A few more thoughts as Iv'e been thinking on this:
>
> -- Bonking is non-existant once you convert to fat burning.
> -- "Fading" (what I call it) can happen, especially in the first few years
> of fat burning. Think of energy consumption as a fire burning. Sugar
> burners are always burning duff and kindling. It flairs hot and high and
> burns out fast. No logs involved with sugar burning. Fat burners burn logs,
> slowly "sipping" the sugar kindling of body stores to keep the logs burning
> and to fuel the occasional burst. In a fully ketogenic mode, our liver
> converts protein to glucose, replenishing our kindling supply without us
> needing to eat. Thus, so long as our kindling burning is below our liver
> conversion capacity we can ride however long our fat and protein stores
> last (that's a loong time). However, the liver has to get strong at
> this conversion process and that can take a few years (with increasing
> results along the way), with compounding factors like how many carbs you
> have (all sorts of debate on if you go higher than ketogenic if you should
> avoid the "middle" ground of 51-200 gm of carbs a day and focus more on
> 201-600 gms/day -- the idea being the middle ground yields the worst of
> both worlds while suppressing the best of both worlds). "Fading" happens
> when our effort (due to level and/or longevity) exceeds our liver's
> capacity to replenish our kindling sugar, so we are burning a "smoldering"
> fire rather than a dancing, popping fire that feeds off itself. It is
> possible to continue a very long time in this mode, but at a diminished
> pace and recovery is not as easy as ingesting carbs. Time and rest are
> required at that point.
> -- Thus, the suggestion of resistant starch, and perhaps also brining
> dates or other sugar source (honey) to supplement your liver along the way
> and avoid fading (which while far less severe that bonking, takes longer to
> recover from. Best to avoid it altogether).
> -- I haven't faded in several years, as my liver is now able to easily
> keep up with my rides.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:41:27 AM UTC-6, René wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses.
>> Lost the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably
>> went a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about
>> just lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some
>> relapses.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Remember Islabikes?

[Patrick Moore]

This is a funny thing to say on a Rivendell list. I do believe in list
criticism instead of total Koolaid, but, I'm almost *(almost)* inclined to
agree with Garth for once. *(Almost.)*

Sure, I think some Rivendell things are overpriced for the value given and
the quality of cheaper alternatives, but OTOH, there is little doubt that
Rivendell does offer things that are quite worth the money, and consistent
ride quality of a certain sort is one of them. I sold 1 Rivendell because I
really didn't like it (Sam Hill, pavement, loaded), but even that bike had
certain very good handling qualities and, did it take wider tires, I'd
probably not now own a custom off road bike.

Although I have no appetite for some of Rivendell's product line (and a
great one for certain others), I have to say that Grant seems to have been
pretty consistent with his *dictum* of almost 20 years ago: "We are product
driven, not market driven

I decided to go back to the original post (learn the context at least after
you make your assertions) and saw Leah's consternation about CF and
aluminum. I have to say that I agree that these products very definitely
fall under the snob element, or at least excessively doting parent elements
("It's plain gauge, seamed, low carbon steel for you, ya wee bastert") --
after all, if children will certainly care about fit and ease of riding,
their standards are pretty basic.

Still and all, if a company used cf or aluminum to make a light, sturdy,
reasonably priced kids' bike, why not? It's just that $2500 for an 8 year
old is -- well, not a good sign, IMO.

But Isla still makes their little steel models, so all is not lost.

Patrick "adding my $0.02 to this rather strange conversation" Moore


On 05/28/2016 06:36 PM, Trenker wrote:
>
 I think when someone talks about “the ride” of a Rivendell they are
> showing some consumerism and elitism because the ride of a bike depends
> mainly on the tires and the fit of the bike.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Indian food run and Goose face-off!

[Patrick Moore]

You are in good, even exalted company:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter_rabbit_incident

Patrick Moore, who confesses to once having been slightly anxious about an
inquisitive squirrel in ABQ, NM.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 6:03 AM, Matt C.  wrote:

> This reminds me of a similar story. A few years ago I was touring on the
> C canal. One morning I woke up early, packed up camp, and  began riding
> at around 6am. It was great as I saw lots of wildlife that
> early...including geese.
>
> I was straight up crushing it at 9-10 mph until a few geese and babies
> were crossing the path in front of me. I slowed down to allow them to pass
> and take in the beautiful sight. The mother/father (I didn't get a good
> look) who was taking up the rear took offense to my nearness and decided to
> come after me. So he/she began hissing and running towards me. I started to
> back up, but since I was straddling my bike I ended up tripping and falling
> over, loaded touring bike on top of me. This did not stop the goose's
> attack. And then, in my extremely startled state (and as a full fledged
> adult) I sadly began to scream. So here I am, trapped under my bicycle, no
> one is around except me and the geese, and I'm screaming in fear of being
> eaten by a charging goose.
>
> I thought about just giving up and dying to the goose, but something
> inside me told me I could win. So with all the courage I could muster,  I
> used the bike as a fence and pushed it up between him/her and myself and
> ran for a little ways before mounting and riding away. Goose never stopping
> his/her hissing/wing flapping until I was almost out of sight.
>
> Matt "goose victim" Cook
> Bristol, RI
>
> P.S. It took me quite a while before I told this story to my wife. She
> doesn't quite look at me the same now.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

I should have added that one purpose of my gearing setups is to limit most
riding to one ring.

As Steve indicated, you want to consider not only range, but also:

Cruising (ie, most riding and most wear) chainline
Ease of shifting

as well as:
Cruising gear spacing
Size of most used cogs (efficiency, wear)
Type of derailleurs
Q factor
Availability of components
And even crank length -- I find that I gear up 1 tooth with 175s compared
to 170s.

Patrick "nothing is simple if you make it complicated" Moore, who prefers
the simplicity of single cogs on his road bikes.


On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Range is as personal as saddles or crank length, since depends on pedaling
> style as well as fitness. I'm not particularly fit by any means, but a sub
> 20" gear would simply gather dust on my bikes. I *would* use an 18" gear
> on a bike set up for steep singletrack at altitude, and I daresay, for
> loaded touring, but not for anything around town.
>
> I live in rolling terrain and often carry (rear) loads, and find that even
> with a 30 lb load, a longish hill, and a headwind, I'd not want anything
> lower than a gear in the low 20s, particularly if more extreme gears at the
> ends interferes with closer ratios in the middle. Likewise, I'd never use a
> 98" gear either, and find a range between say 85" and 30" fine for the sort
> of pavement and dirt riding I do, loaded or not.
>
> On my erstwhile Fargo, I had the X2D set up with Guard/38/24, and a 13-27
> t 9 speed (friction, Silvers) which gave me a 40" low on the 38, enough for
> most paved hills, and a 25" bailout, which I don't think I ever used. But I
> had close middle ratios:
>
> 38.0 24.0
> 13.0 83.3
> 14.0 77.4 48.9
> 15.0 72.2 45.6
> 16.0 67.7 42.8
> 17.0 63.7 40.2
> 18.0 60.2 38.0
> 20.0 54.2 34.2
> 23.0 47.1 29.7
> 27.0 40.1 25.3
> Since I am limited to wide Q on the Fargo replacement Matthews due to the
> width of the stays (minimum would be no less than 168; presently 173-175 --
> but then I can also run 3" 559 mm Knards should I want to) I decided to
> keep a triple and run Hi and Lo cruising ranges on 44 pavement and 40 dirt
> t big rings, with a 26" bailout. This gives me close ratios, a low enough
> range on dirt, and I can dump easily from pavement to dirt range without
> losing range or close spacing.
>
> 15.0 83.6 76.0
> 16.0 78.4 71.3
> 17.0 73.8 67.1
> 18.0 69.7 63.3
> 19.0 66.0 60.0 39.0
> 21.0 59.7 54.3 35.3
> 23.0 54.5 49.6 32.2
> 26.0 48.2 43.8 28.5
> 30.0 38.0 24.7
>
> This setup also gives me larger cogs and cruising gears with no or minimal
> chain deflection.
>
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 3:15 AM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with
>> Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t
>> crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range
>> of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of
>> gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come
>> in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the
>> back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what
>> would you think of that range?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What do folks think of wide cassettes?  There used to be a IRD/Riv 9
>>> speed 12-40 "Elite Wide", but that has been discontinued.  (I wish
>>> discontinued items were not so prominently placed, but that's a different
>>> issue.)  I found there is a Praxis 10 speed Wide Range 11-40 MTB cassette
>>> available.  That should still work with indexed DT or BE shifters like the
>>> Shimano 7900.  Since I'm weak, I wonder if this might be better than a
>>> standard road cassette like a 11-32.  I'm definitely going to need a low
>>> gear if I'm going to try climbing any hills.
>>>
>>> As for the DT vs BE shifters, I can see using either in rural areas.  My
>>> current leaning is toward 2x10 with 7900 DT shifters, indexed for the rear
>>> and friction for the front.  But, how might DT or BE shifters compare with
>>> brifters for urban usage?  Until I work up to it, most of my short-term use
>>> will be (small city) streets and paved MUP.  I'm wondering if brifters
>>> might work better in that environment.
>>>
>>> Thanks again for all of the advice and ideas.
>>>
>>> Tim
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
 first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
 sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
 purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
 was sort of rivish.
 

Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

Range is as personal as saddles or crank length, since depends on pedaling
style as well as fitness. I'm not particularly fit by any means, but a sub
20" gear would simply gather dust on my bikes. I *would* use an 18" gear on
a bike set up for steep singletrack at altitude, and I daresay, for loaded
touring, but not for anything around town.

I live in rolling terrain and often carry (rear) loads, and find that even
with a 30 lb load, a longish hill, and a headwind, I'd not want anything
lower than a gear in the low 20s, particularly if more extreme gears at the
ends interferes with closer ratios in the middle. Likewise, I'd never use a
98" gear either, and find a range between say 85" and 30" fine for the sort
of pavement and dirt riding I do, loaded or not.

On my erstwhile Fargo, I had the X2D set up with Guard/38/24, and a 13-27 t
9 speed (friction, Silvers) which gave me a 40" low on the 38, enough for
most paved hills, and a 25" bailout, which I don't think I ever used. But I
had close middle ratios:

38.0 24.0
13.0 83.3
14.0 77.4 48.9
15.0 72.2 45.6
16.0 67.7 42.8
17.0 63.7 40.2
18.0 60.2 38.0
20.0 54.2 34.2
23.0 47.1 29.7
27.0 40.1 25.3
Since I am limited to wide Q on the Fargo replacement Matthews due to the
width of the stays (minimum would be no less than 168; presently 173-175 --
but then I can also run 3" 559 mm Knards should I want to) I decided to
keep a triple and run Hi and Lo cruising ranges on 44 pavement and 40 dirt
t big rings, with a 26" bailout. This gives me close ratios, a low enough
range on dirt, and I can dump easily from pavement to dirt range without
losing range or close spacing.

15.0 83.6 76.0
16.0 78.4 71.3
17.0 73.8 67.1
18.0 69.7 63.3
19.0 66.0 60.0 39.0
21.0 59.7 54.3 35.3
23.0 54.5 49.6 32.2
26.0 48.2 43.8 28.5
30.0 38.0 24.7

This setup also gives me larger cogs and cruising gears with no or minimal
chain deflection.


On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 3:15 AM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with
> Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t
> crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range
> of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of
> gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come
> in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the
> back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what
> would you think of that range?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> What do folks think of wide cassettes?  There used to be a IRD/Riv 9
>> speed 12-40 "Elite Wide", but that has been discontinued.  (I wish
>> discontinued items were not so prominently placed, but that's a different
>> issue.)  I found there is a Praxis 10 speed Wide Range 11-40 MTB cassette
>> available.  That should still work with indexed DT or BE shifters like the
>> Shimano 7900.  Since I'm weak, I wonder if this might be better than a
>> standard road cassette like a 11-32.  I'm definitely going to need a low
>> gear if I'm going to try climbing any hills.
>>
>> As for the DT vs BE shifters, I can see using either in rural areas.  My
>> current leaning is toward 2x10 with 7900 DT shifters, indexed for the rear
>> and friction for the front.  But, how might DT or BE shifters compare with
>> brifters for urban usage?  Until I work up to it, most of my short-term use
>> will be (small city) streets and paved MUP.  I'm wondering if brifters
>> might work better in that environment.
>>
>> Thanks again for all of the advice and ideas.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield <
>> timbutterfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
>>> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
>>> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
>>> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
>>> was sort of rivish.
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>>>
>>> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
>>> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
>>> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
>>> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
>>> definitely not rivish.
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>>>
>>> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
>>> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
>>> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
>>> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
>>> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of

[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[Deacon Patrick]

A few more thoughts as Iv'e been thinking on this:

-- Bonking is non-existant once you convert to fat burning.
-- "Fading" (what I call it) can happen, especially in the first few years 
of fat burning. Think of energy consumption as a fire burning. Sugar 
burners are always burning duff and kindling. It flairs hot and high and 
burns out fast. No logs involved with sugar burning. Fat burners burn logs, 
slowly "sipping" the sugar kindling of body stores to keep the logs burning 
and to fuel the occasional burst. In a fully ketogenic mode, our liver 
converts protein to glucose, replenishing our kindling supply without us 
needing to eat. Thus, so long as our kindling burning is below our liver 
conversion capacity we can ride however long our fat and protein stores 
last (that's a loong time). However, the liver has to get strong at 
this conversion process and that can take a few years (with increasing 
results along the way), with compounding factors like how many carbs you 
have (all sorts of debate on if you go higher than ketogenic if you should 
avoid the "middle" ground of 51-200 gm of carbs a day and focus more on 
201-600 gms/day -- the idea being the middle ground yields the worst of 
both worlds while suppressing the best of both worlds). "Fading" happens 
when our effort (due to level and/or longevity) exceeds our liver's 
capacity to replenish our kindling sugar, so we are burning a "smoldering" 
fire rather than a dancing, popping fire that feeds off itself. It is 
possible to continue a very long time in this mode, but at a diminished 
pace and recovery is not as easy as ingesting carbs. Time and rest are 
required at that point. 
-- Thus, the suggestion of resistant starch, and perhaps also brining dates 
or other sugar source (honey) to supplement your liver along the way and 
avoid fading (which while far less severe that bonking, takes longer to 
recover from. Best to avoid it altogether).
-- I haven't faded in several years, as my liver is now able to easily keep 
up with my rides.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:41:27 AM UTC-6, René wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. Lost 
> the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably went 
> a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about just 
> lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some relapses. 

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

Perfect fender line! I'm envious.

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 6:04 PM, stonehog  wrote:

> I like Noodles - like the curve back - fits my hands great.  I've tried
> 46, 42, and 44cm sizes, and like the 42s best (5'11" 87.5cm PBH), but that
> is a hugely personal preference and likely based on your body dimensions
> and how you ride.
>
> Like René, I like the Honjos or any aluminum fenders over plastic, but
> mainly based on esthetics and moldability - love a good fender line.  As
> far as racks go, I've tried most setups, and like a simple rear bag.  I
> love the convenience of a front bag, but keep it light and low unless you
> don't mind wheel flop.
>
> This worked pretty well for me on long rides: https://flic.kr/p/pgL8Ew
>
> At this point I've settled on this: https://flic.kr/p/zP7BQG
>
> As you've probably noticed, there are a lot of different setups on this
> list.  Rivs are great that way - most versatile bikes ever.
>
> Brian Hanson
> Seattle, WA
> www.stonehog.com
>
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:38:16 PM UTC-7, René wrote:
>>
>> Very very nice gray color! Bars are so personal. Also seems to depend on
>> other ongoing stuff; today my hands, butt, feet and neck hurt. Other days
>> nothing hurts.
>>
>> Here's my Homer with the Compass 44 Rando bars with Brooks tape.
>>
>> Can't go wrong with what you like!
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Brian Campbell  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 3:21:37 PM UTC-4, WETH wrote:

 Wow, Brian, that is a beautiful bike.  I am used to seeing lovely bikes
 here, but yours is really eye catching-the color, bar tape, etc.
 Nice work.
 Erl
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Patrick Moore]

Very nice and well set up. You've got a pretty good fender line, too -- I
have a problem getting a very nice line with my '03, and may have the rear
bridge raised a bit. One thing Riv could do to perfect their offerings is
ensure the right crown and bridge heights for fenders over max width tires.

I switched between 46 cm Noodles and rando bars on the Fargo (but mine were
B 135s, 42 or 44 mm) and found them wonderful for dirt road riding, but I
did miss the flat flats and, particularly, the option of using interrupter
levers -- they felt very uncomfortable on the rising flats. (I'm smaller
than you, and found the 46 Noodles too wide.) I  replaced *those* with 42
cm Maes Parallel copies -- needed a slightly shorter stem or slightly
higher bar -- and these are even better.

The MPs have even nicer ramps than the Noodles, and have a shallower drop,
which I prefer. Note that the Noodles curve backward bit and required a
longer stem than the B 135s, let alone the MPs.

Noodles: 90 mm reach (but longish ramps; note that the flats curve
backward) and 140 mm drop.
B 135s: 105/120
MPs: 125/115

I just saw that Compass no longer offers the 37 or 38 mm width; glad I
bought my Rivendells some before they dropped those.

Note that VO sells cheaper (and not as nice) versions of the rando and Maes
Parallels, which might be good for experimenting. One day I may replace the
VO MPs with Compass ones on the Matthews.

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Brian Campbell 
wrote:

> Tim,
>
> Here are some pis for comparison.
>
> My AHH as currently configured:
>
>
> 
>
> I have used 46cm Noodle bars for the last 6 years. I recently switched to
> a set of Compass Rando bars 42cm and the bar shapes are cleary very
> different. After a 100 miles on the Compass bars I determined that they are
> not for me. I like have a flatish spot for my hands and the Compass bars do
> not provide that. See the differences below:
>
> 46cm Noodles:
>
>
> 
>
>
> 42cm Compass Rando Bars:
>
>
> 
>
>
> I am 6'1" 185 and preferred the wider bars.
>
>
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world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

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[RBW] Here are some things that ought to re-appear under the Silver name: closer ratio hub gears

[Patrick Moore]

An auction just ended for a SA ASC hub -- starting asking bid: $475. The
slightler earlier auction for the even nicer TF started at $900.

The ASC had lash problems like the S3X, but at least had reasonable ratios:
direct, 90%, 75%. The TF had little lash, apparently, and had a wonderful
direct and 75% gap. I wonder if a mechanic could "fix" the S3X by cutting
out 1st and somehow reducing the lash?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STURMEY-ARCHER-ASC-FIXED-NOS-IN-BOX-Vintage-1950-/262430504723?hash=item3d1a13b713:g:ZywAAOSwNKVXMeP1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Surmey-Archer-TF-2-speed-fixed-hub-wheel-in-excellent-used-condition-RARE-/252394627517?hash=item3ac3e461bd:g:AMwAAOSwt7pXN120

I know that Grant says he's no interest in hub gears, but he changed his
mind on Tig welding ...

I know that mechanics have fixified the Bendix 2 sp kickback; I wonder if
someone can fixify the medium ratio AM hub?

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**
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*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[Lungimsam]

How hilly is the ride? I was nervous before my first 62 mile ride. It 
turned out to be way easier than I ever thought it would be.

I don't do low carb riding or diets, but here are a few general long ride 
tips:

1. *Keep it in perspective*: If *there is SAG*, there is nothing to worry 
about. If you get tired/bonk, then you can get a ride back. You may even 
feel like getting back on the bike after the rest while waiting for them to 
come get you and finish the ride. *So don't give up too quickly. *I have 
heard that some riders regret ending a ride and felt they did so too early.

2. If tired, try* recovering on the bike*. Ride as gentle and slow as you 
need to. Soft/light on the pedals. You may find yourself feeling better and 
doing fine after a while.

3. Same for bonking. I have heard of a person continuing to ride through a 
bonk gently and successfully, like in #2 above.

4. *Hard boiled eggs*. Pure energy.

5. *Rest stops:* Start gently after each rest stop until you warm up again. 
Some people stop for long periods (30min.). Some only long enough to get 
food and drink, then they take off. Both work for me. But I tend to stay 
looser if I just have a quick stop.

6. *Focus on getting to each rest stop*. Do not think about how many miles 
you have left in the total ride. Just do it chunk at a time. The goal is 
the next rest stop. "Yes,I can do 15 more miles!"

7. *If it is a hilly ride, gear down and accept slow*. Keep a pace on the 
hills where your breathing stays calm and you don't start huffing and 
puffing. Do not blow yourself up trying to power up hills and getting out 
of breath. I did that once on a 4700ft. climbing 72 mile ride and was blown 
up at 50 miles. Had to lay down for 20 minutes to get going again for the 
last 25. It took all I had to finish. *But it was my fault* for repeatedly 
blowing myself up trying to go fast up the repeated steep hills. I had to 
walk the bike up anything steeper than ~5% grades for the rest of the ride. 
Legs were shot. Unsupported ride, too. No SAG. By God's grace I made it to 
the end happily!

8. *Have fun enjoying the rolling bike show!* It is fun to see all the 
different people and bikes on the ride. You may even be encouraged when you 
see elderly people on walmart bikes doing the same ride you are doing. Also 
if you meet people at the rest stops who say "this is my first ride"." No 
training." "I bought this bike yesterday at a garage sale". Then you will 
feel encouraged at how prepared you are for the ride. You will feel that if 
they can do it, you can do it, too.

9. *Don't get demoralized* if you see people laying down on the ground or 
if you hear about people who dropped out. It may not be the ride that got 
them or lack of prep. It may be they have medical issues, and no indicator 
of how hard the ride is to you. Relax and have fun.

10. If you just did a 4 hour, 40 mile ride of similar elevation, I am sure 
you will be able to pump out a 72 miler. Be confidant! At of it is mental. 
If you eventually do longer rides, then 72 miles will seem an easily 
mentally managed distance.

11. *Find your forever pace. *Cruise along at a comfortable pace that you 
feel you can ride at all day. Don't try to keep up with others at all. Just 
temper your enthusiasm and take it easy and make it a fun cruise of a 
ride

Have a great time and don't forget the pics!!!

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Re: [RBW] Want to buy or try: Kelly take offs

[Patrick Moore]

I sold mine years ago, but I can put in a word of praise for them. I found
them the easiest way to do double shifts: Kellys #1, then dt shifters, then
bes. However, I found bes to be best for off road -- bumpy -- shifting.

I found I could shift as easily from ramps/hoods (these were Nitto 185s, so
very short ramps) as hooks.

I had mine set up with old Record shifters on a faux half stepped Riv
commuter, 13-32 7 speed, half stepping the middle 5 cogs (15-17-20-23-26)
and using the outer and inner as downhill and bailout gears respectively;
91" to 35" range. Cruising was in cog #3, just shifting back and forth
between 70" and 65" with the left shifter. Very nice.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Another build concept is taking place. I'm considering all the non brifter
> options for putting my shifters on the handlebar. One option I would like
> to consider is Kelly take offs. Does anybody have a set they would like to
> let go?
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito CA
>

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[RBW] Want to buy or try: Kelly take offs

[Bill Lindsay]

Another build concept is taking place. I'm considering all the non brifter 
options for putting my shifters on the handlebar. One option I would like to 
consider is Kelly take offs. Does anybody have a set they would like to let go? 
 

Bill Lindsay 
El Cerrito CA

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Re: [RBW] C17 or C17 Carved?

[Ron Mc]

astounding

>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Ride Report Gap-C & O Towpath

[Robert F. Harrison]

Super ride! Thanks for sharing the images too. They brought back great
memories. I did that ride last summer, warmer but just as wet and muddy. :-)

Aloha,
Bob
On May 28, 2016 10:49 AM, "Howard Hatten"  wrote:

> Finished my ride last Saturday. Left Pittsburgh @ 5 AM, 33 degrees on
> Monday morning. Explored the downtown for an hour or two then headed out.
> Sky was sunny but cool. The next day brought cool rain and hazy conditions.
> The rain stuck around most of the week making the C  & O very muddy. The
> fenders on the Atlantis kept me very clean compared to others I encountered
> along the way. I've ridden the Atlantis at Ragbrai and Dalmac in Michigan,
> but I never realized  just how wonderful this bike is till this ride.
> 1st time traveling by train with bike
> 1st rustic camping solo
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/136422809@N08/shares/69oU4R
>
> Howard
> Livonia Mi.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Joe Bernard]

As I said somewhere earlier, DT is an acquired taste I haven't acquired. The 
choice between BE and brifters for a 2x system in the city is, IMO, two 
variations on the same idea of shifters on bars. I don't think one is "better" 
for the application, so I personally would choose BE because I like them. 
You'll be fine with either. 

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Brian Campbell]

Tim,

Thanks! There are a lot of options to try so I would think about a "test 
and learn" phase after buying whatever Riv model you decide on. Mine has 
been built in many different configurations and for my preferences and 
riding ( I am 48 and live in South Eastern PA) I learned the following:

1. I don't carry a lot, so lots of racks and bags while they are useful, 
got no use. They only increased the weight going up hill. They allowed me 
to fill them for contingency plans that never came into play.

2. The gearing is 46/30 12-30 10 speed. I use the Dura Ace indexed downtube 
shifters. I switched from 10 speed indexed bar ends and have come to prefer 
the downtube shifting. I think maybe because I grew up on it. This bike had 
brifters as well. They worked fine but I never really go used to the 
shifting motions.

3. The bike has evolved over the the years and now I try to keep it light 
(relatively speaking) and simple. 

There are lots of great ways to build up a Riv. They are able to perform 
well in a number of configurations. I would not obese to much about trying 
to get everything "just so" before you ride whatever bike for a bit. 
Experimenting is part of the fun. There are many people on the list to buy 
or trade components with if you want to try a different setup but not spend 
too much on an experiment. There are many ways to enjoy a Rivendell and 
best of all they adapt well as you and your ideas about riding evolve over 
time.





On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 10:23:35 PM UTC-4, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Brian,
> Beautiful bike.  Thanks for the front look at the bars. Now that I see the 
> angle, I'm not sure I would want the inward tilt on the tops. I may prefer 
> flat tops also.  Is there a different bar with flat tops that still has a 
> flare out at the drops?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Brian Campbell  > wrote:
>
>> Tim,
>>
>> Here are some pis for comparison.
>>
>> My AHH as currently configured:
>>
>>
>> 
>>  
>> I have used 46cm Noodle bars for the last 6 years. I recently switched to 
>> a set of Compass Rando bars 42cm and the bar shapes are cleary very 
>> different. After a 100 miles on the Compass bars I determined that they are 
>> not for me. I like have a flatish spot for my hands and the Compass bars do 
>> not provide that. See the differences below:
>>
>> 46cm Noodles:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> 42cm Compass Rando Bars:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> I am 6'1" 185 and preferred the wider bars.
>>
>>
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[RBW] Rivelo Anniversary Party with Grant: June 25, Portland

[John A. Bennett]

We'll be celebrating *Year One of Rivlelo *on *Saturday, June 25th*, in 
Portland (the one in Oregon).

We'll start with a ride from the Peninsula Park Rose Garden at 9:30AM with 
Special Guest and friend, Grant Petersen. 

After the ride, there'll be a party at the shop from 1PM to 4PM. 

Live music from the Flat Rock Stringband: http://www.flatrockstringband.com/

Food and drink. 

401 SE Caruthers St, in Southeast Portland, at the corner of Caruthers & 
Water Avenue.

Stop by, say "Hi."

Thank you for your support. 

John & Darby

Regular updates on our doings can be found here:

https://www.instagram.com/rivelo_pdx/



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Re: [RBW] C17 or C17 Carved?

[Jeff Lesperance]

Where else is there a significant failure rate
being reported? Three reported failures on that other discussion on the
iBob list, one first-hand and the other two second-hand, indicates
a systemic problem? I tried searching for other reported failures and
haven't found it as a topic in any other internet bike hangouts I visit.
There could be a larger design or implementation problem but I'd like to
see a valid sample size, and hear Brooks reaction as well.

On Sunday, May 29, 2016, Ron Mc  wrote:

> regardless of anecdotal evidence, that failure rate indicates a systematic
> problem
>
> On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 6:03:17 AM UTC-5, Jeff wrote:
>>
>> I have 3 C-17 carved and 1 regular C17, as well as a B-17n that I turned
>> into a 'carved' model. I have the natural, slate and black C-17's. I have
>> anywhere from a couple dozen up to a couple thousand miles on the Cambium
>> saddles and have had no issues at all. I definitely much prefer the carved
>> model. I would be sad if I started having a problem, and Brooks would be
>> the first to hear about it, but these saddles have been a game changer for
>> me and I wouldn't hesitate to buy more or recommend them to friends.
>>
>> -Jeff
>> Silver Spring, MD
>>
>> On Sunday, May 29, 2016, masmojo  wrote:
>>
>>> Dead split between people who've had an issue & those who haven't!?
>>> Still, worrisome I have about a dozen bikes with Brooks saddles,  including
>>> a C-17 (good so far, but it's only got a few hundred miles on it) I am
>>> worried though,  because I just got a C-19 yesterday!
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Large Grabsack width and height?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Mark. My 15" MB Pro measures about 14" across and 10" high, so it
will probably fit.

Your montage reminds me of the rather surprisingly large grocery load I
managed to fit into a Revelate Pika.

It's on my short list, but the downside is that I'll have to modify it by
adding a waist strap ...

Patrick

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 10:57 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
> 
>
>
> 
> I don't use a laptop, but I grabbed one lying around at work (slow day
> with the holiday weekend) that measured a little over 13" long and 9.5"
> high and it fit, as claimed on the website, along with all this other
> stuff, and closed fine. Second pic shows the rest of the stuff that was in
> there (2 changes of shirt--90 degrees and muggy today in the Hudson
> Valley)  A couple items I threw in to "stuff it up" but it could still hold
> more.
>
> For a complete, scintillating photo set, including side view and bag
> stuffed into Sackville panniers:
>
> https://goo.gl/photos/DpsYMkxmFLXWDpVXA
>
> Great bag. Get it.
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 8:51:08 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Can someone give me the main pocket interior maximum width -- ie,
>> stretching it -- as well as the height of this bag? Riv gives the
>> dimensions for the smaller size, but not for the larger.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
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[RBW] Indian food run and Goose face-off!

[Matt C.]

This reminds me of a similar story. A few years ago I was touring on the C 
canal. One morning I woke up early, packed up camp, and  began riding at around 
6am. It was great as I saw lots of wildlife that early...including geese. 

I was straight up crushing it at 9-10 mph until a few geese and babies were 
crossing the path in front of me. I slowed down to allow them to pass and take 
in the beautiful sight. The mother/father (I didn't get a good look) who was 
taking up the rear took offense to my nearness and decided to come after me. So 
he/she began hissing and running towards me. I started to back up, but since I 
was straddling my bike I ended up tripping and falling over, loaded touring 
bike on top of me. This did not stop the goose's attack. And then, in my 
extremely startled state (and as a full fledged adult) I sadly began to scream. 
So here I am, trapped under my bicycle, no one is around except me and the 
geese, and I'm screaming in fear of being eaten by a charging goose. 

I thought about just giving up and dying to the goose, but something inside me 
told me I could win. So with all the courage I could muster,  I used the bike 
as a fence and pushed it up between him/her and myself and ran for a little 
ways before mounting and riding away. Goose never stopping his/her hissing/wing 
flapping until I was almost out of sight. 

Matt "goose victim" Cook
Bristol, RI

P.S. It took me quite a while before I told this story to my wife. She doesn't 
quite look at me the same now. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Thinking of a Riv

[Will]

Bingo you keep the Ortlieb front bag and match with Tubus/Ortlieb rear. 

I still think you should go back to the drawing board and give strong 
consideration to a "complete" Sam. It might be cheaper from a financial 
POV, but it is not cheaper from a visual or functional POV. The builders in 
Taiwan are equal to Waterford. Also you have additional wheel clearance and 
you have a tube set that Petersen obviously likes and strongly recommends. 
Both are stong signals. 





On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 12:53:57 AM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Surlyprof  > wrote:
>
>> You'll never regret a Mark's rack.  So handy.  I would second the 
>> suggestions of the Tubus Evo and panniers.  I have a Cosmo that I've moved 
>> across three different bikes.  It may be heavier duty than you want but it 
>> isn't that heavy and the ability to carry panniers low is really nice 
>> because handles well and it leaves the top portion for other things.  You 
>> may not need it often but when you do, it is nice to have.  I would buy the 
>> Logo over the Cosmo.  The two prongs sticking up on the Cosmo wore through 
>> my Saddlesack.  I had to reinforce it with leather.  That wouldn't have 
>> been a problem with the Logo.
>>
>
>  I'm having some visual discord between a Tubus Logo Evo rear rack and a 
> Mark's front rack.  I would prefer they either both be black or both be 
> chrome, but would prefer to avoid a mismatch between them.  A silver 
> painted Logo wouldn't quite do it either.  I could get the Tubus Logo Evo 
> rear, but would need a matching black rack for the front.  I could get the 
> Marks' front, but would want a matching chrome rack for the rear.  Most of 
> the Tubus front seem oriented to panniers, which I'm not likely to use on 
> either end.  So, I could do my original guess of the Mark's front and the 
> Nitto R14 rear.  Or, I could do the Tubus Logo Evo rear, but would need 
> something for the font that was not pannier oriented.  Of course, I could 
> use the Tubus Logo Evo rear and keep my Ortleib Ultimate 6 Pro-M front 
> bar bag, not using a front rack at all.  Any further thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tim
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/29/2016 05:15 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing 
with Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 
26t-40t crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would 
provide a range of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is 
quite a range of gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either 
extreme, but they might come in handy if I ever needed it, especially 
if I put a decent sized bag on the back rack.  For a weak rider that 
might have a mix of flats and hills, what would you think of that range?


It's not just the range.   Here's your proposed gearing (if not the 
exact cassette, close to it):


63.898.2
54.083.1
46.872.0
41.363.5
36.956.8
33.451.4
29.245.0
25.138.6
21.933.8
19.530.0
17.627.0


A good general rule is you want your main cruising gear, the one you use 
for level ground w/o winds helping or hindering, to be in the middle of 
the cassette.  Here you are on the 3rd position.  Going up has one 
moderate step and one pretty large one.  Going down, you have plenty - 
enough so that for anything but seriously hilly country you need never 
go to the small ring.  But when you do, look at what happens:  you drop 
so much you'll feel as though you dropped the chain, and will have to 
immediately upshift two to four times to get to the "next lower" gear, 
depending on where you are on the cassette.  That can be hard to live 
with.  Also, 17.6 is exceptionally low.  Most people only have a use for 
a gear that low in the most severe terrain when they are carrying loaded 
panniers front and rear.



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Re: [RBW] C17 or C17 Carved?

[Ron Mc]

regardless of anecdotal evidence, that failure rate indicates a systematic 
problem

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 6:03:17 AM UTC-5, Jeff wrote:
>
> I have 3 C-17 carved and 1 regular C17, as well as a B-17n that I turned 
> into a 'carved' model. I have the natural, slate and black C-17's. I have 
> anywhere from a couple dozen up to a couple thousand miles on the Cambium 
> saddles and have had no issues at all. I definitely much prefer the carved 
> model. I would be sad if I started having a problem, and Brooks would be 
> the first to hear about it, but these saddles have been a game changer for 
> me and I wouldn't hesitate to buy more or recommend them to friends.
>
> -Jeff
> Silver Spring, MD
>
> On Sunday, May 29, 2016, masmojo  
> wrote:
>
>> Dead split between people who've had an issue & those who haven't!? 
>> Still, worrisome I have about a dozen bikes with Brooks saddles,  including 
>> a C-17 (good so far, but it's only got a few hundred miles on it) I am 
>> worried though,  because I just got a C-19 yesterday!
>>
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>

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Re: [RBW] C17 or C17 Carved?

[Jeff Lesperance]

I have 3 C-17 carved and 1 regular C17, as well as a B-17n that I turned
into a 'carved' model. I have the natural, slate and black C-17's. I have
anywhere from a couple dozen up to a couple thousand miles on the Cambium
saddles and have had no issues at all. I definitely much prefer the carved
model. I would be sad if I started having a problem, and Brooks would be
the first to hear about it, but these saddles have been a game changer for
me and I wouldn't hesitate to buy more or recommend them to friends.

-Jeff
Silver Spring, MD

On Sunday, May 29, 2016, masmojo  wrote:

> Dead split between people who've had an issue & those who haven't!? Still,
> worrisome I have about a dozen bikes with Brooks saddles,  including a C-17
> (good so far, but it's only got a few hundred miles on it) I am worried
> though,  because I just got a C-19 yesterday!
>
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Re: [RBW] C17 or C17 Carved?

[masmojo]

Dead split between people who've had an issue & those who haven't!? Still, 
worrisome I have about a dozen bikes with Brooks saddles,  including a C-17 
(good so far, but it's only got a few hundred miles on it) I am worried though, 
 because I just got a C-19 yesterday!

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[Ron Mc]

riding in s. Texas summers, taking along SmartWater is a good idea, and 
can't describe to you how wonderful fresh fruit can be, mandarin oranges, 
tangelos, etc.  Around here, it's fresh peaches at roadside stands.  

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 5:28:46 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I suspect that most bonk is caused by electrolyte loss, not glucose.  On 
> very long rides in very hot weather I drink half water & half sport drink. 
>  I carry salty snacks and for century rides and some potassium tablets. 
>  Eat what you like.
> Michael
>
>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[Michael Hechmer]

I suspect that most bonk is caused by electrolyte loss, not glucose.  On 
very long rides in very hot weather I drink half water & half sport drink. 
 I carry salty snacks and for century rides and some potassium tablets. 
 Eat what you like.
Michael


On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 7:49:43 PM UTC-4, stonehog wrote:
>
> Hi René!  Congrats on sticking to the low carb stuff - I've been off and 
> on for a while - like most diets, I find it hard to "stay different" from 
> what others are eating around me.  Need to find the zen chi and become 
> myself...
>
> As far as what to eat on longer rides, here's my take.  I did brevets for 
> a few years before low carb and used stuff like Perpetuum which is just 
> maltodextrose (carbs) mixed with water.  Easy to get down on longer rides, 
> and kept me from bonking, but not satisfying at all.  Everyone was 
> different.  One guy ate dried fruits and seaweed chips - seemed like a pro 
> to me.  Others ate lots of junk and gels.
>
> On the Oregon Outback trip last year, I went with mainly coconut, nuts, 
> and meat/cheese snacks.  This worked great - did five 70+ mile days and 
> never felt like I was hungry.  Here's a pic of what I packed (wayyy too 
> much, BTW - had half of it left at the end of the trip):
>
> https://flic.kr/p/u3G4Nk
>
> Just bring something with salt, and plenty of water, and you'll be fine. 
>  If you feel like your are tired, stop and take a rest.  
>
> Brian
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:41:27 PM UTC-7, René wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. 
>> Lost the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably 
>> went a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about 
>> just lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some 
>> relapses.
>>
>> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the 
>> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe 
>> next Sunday.
>>
>> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite 
>> fat adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the 
>> morning, and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR 
>> of 124 (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I 
>> previously couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in 
>> the aerobic base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short 
>> climbs I couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>>
>> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've 
>> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in 
>> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind, 
>> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like 
>> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant 
>> headwind.
>>
>> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home 
>> I feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my 
>> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>>
>> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm 
>> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without 
>> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I 
>> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so 
>> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the 
>> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control 
>> my pace and my nutrition.
>>
>> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way 
>> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right now, it seems impossible as my longest ride 
>> has been 4 hours, and most of my rides are around 2 hours. Suggestions are 
>> also welcome.
>>
>> I know there is a lot of "mental" stuff needed to do these long rides, as 
>> well as more aerobic training and losing the other 40+ lbs I'm still 
>> carrying on me. I'm just hoping that persevering will make them truly 
>> enjoyable, vs. fighting to just finish them.
>>
>> I welcome any other tips as well regarding managing the long hours on the 
>> saddle. Frequency of stops to stretch out, rest the butt, hands, feet, 
>> etc.? I know I can always get bailed out if necessary, but I'm going to try 
>> to do the whole ride.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback!
>>
>> I'm riding my Homer. Is anyone from this list going to do the ride as 
>> well?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> René 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] C17 or C17 Carved?

[Ron Mc]

heads up current discussion on iBob 
 
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/internet-bob/VXruH2NKHEQ%5B1-25%5D
at the very least, this would keep me away from a carved C17
for me, the only saddle is Brooks Select

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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with
Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t
crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range
of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of
gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come
in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the
back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what
would you think of that range?

Thanks.

Tim

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> What do folks think of wide cassettes?  There used to be a IRD/Riv 9 speed
> 12-40 "Elite Wide", but that has been discontinued.  (I wish discontinued
> items were not so prominently placed, but that's a different issue.)  I
> found there is a Praxis 10 speed Wide Range 11-40 MTB cassette available.
> That should still work with indexed DT or BE shifters like the Shimano
> 7900.  Since I'm weak, I wonder if this might be better than a standard
> road cassette like a 11-32.  I'm definitely going to need a low gear if I'm
> going to try climbing any hills.
>
> As for the DT vs BE shifters, I can see using either in rural areas.  My
> current leaning is toward 2x10 with 7900 DT shifters, indexed for the rear
> and friction for the front.  But, how might DT or BE shifters compare with
> brifters for urban usage?  Until I work up to it, most of my short-term use
> will be (small city) streets and paved MUP.  I'm wondering if brifters
> might work better in that environment.
>
> Thanks again for all of the advice and ideas.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield  > wrote:
>
>> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
>> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
>> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
>> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
>> was sort of rivish.
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>>
>> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
>> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
>> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
>> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
>> definitely not rivish.
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>>
>> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
>> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
>> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
>> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
>> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
>> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
>> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
>> without having to change frames.
>>
>> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two
>> mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was
>> more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs
>> and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much,
>> I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It
>> looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I
>> expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But,
>> using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work
>> with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and
>> cons of each.
>>
>> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
>> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>>
>> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
>> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
>> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
>> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
>> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
>> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>>
>> Thanks for any advice you have.
>>
>> Tim
>>
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

What do folks think of wide cassettes?  There used to be a IRD/Riv 9 speed
12-40 "Elite Wide", but that has been discontinued.  (I wish discontinued
items were not so prominently placed, but that's a different issue.)  I
found there is a Praxis 10 speed Wide Range 11-40 MTB cassette available.
That should still work with indexed DT or BE shifters like the Shimano
7900.  Since I'm weak, I wonder if this might be better than a standard
road cassette like a 11-32.  I'm definitely going to need a low gear if I'm
going to try climbing any hills.

As for the DT vs BE shifters, I can see using either in rural areas.  My
current leaning is toward 2x10 with 7900 DT shifters, indexed for the rear
and friction for the front.  But, how might DT or BE shifters compare with
brifters for urban usage?  Until I work up to it, most of my short-term use
will be (small city) streets and paved MUP.  I'm wondering if brifters
might work better in that environment.

Thanks again for all of the advice and ideas.

Tim


On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I
> first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and
> sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and
> purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That
> was sort of rivish.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423
>
> Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort
> using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left
> Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in
> Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp,
> definitely not rivish.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428
>
> It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the
> real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer
> Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo,
> but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at
> 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of
> the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my
> abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks
> without having to change frames.
>
> So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two mentioned.
> My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was more modern
> with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs and SRAM
> setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, I like
> the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It looks
> clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I expect
> that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, using DT
> shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work with an
> 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and cons of
> each.
>
> With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some
> RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.
>
> My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer
> distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I
> pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are
> there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv
> locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but
> don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?
>
> Thanks for any advice you have.
>
> Tim
>
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

René,
Thanks for the info and pictures.  That's a nice looking Homer.  I like the
look of the stainless steel Cosmo, though it doesn't look polished.  I'm
going to have to think further on the rack/bag selection.  I have several
good options to choose from.

Thanks.

Tim

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 11:18 PM, René Sterental 
wrote:

> Stay with the original plan; Mark's front rack and R14 rear rack with a
> Medium or Large Saddlesack. You'll find out if you need panniers, but I
> doubt you will since you won't tour.
>
> If you're set on a rear rack for panniers that goes with the Mark's rack,
> and want to keep it smallish, then I'd recommend the steel Tubus Cosmo.
> It's not painted silver with the plastic clear coat over it; you can see it
> in the photos of the original configuration of my Homer:
> https://flickr.com/photos/25160594@N05/sets/72157622508702300
>
> René
>
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Tim Butterfield 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Surlyprof  wrote:
>>
>>> You'll never regret a Mark's rack.  So handy.  I would second the
>>> suggestions of the Tubus Evo and panniers.  I have a Cosmo that I've moved
>>> across three different bikes.  It may be heavier duty than you want but it
>>> isn't that heavy and the ability to carry panniers low is really nice
>>> because handles well and it leaves the top portion for other things.  You
>>> may not need it often but when you do, it is nice to have.  I would buy the
>>> Logo over the Cosmo.  The two prongs sticking up on the Cosmo wore through
>>> my Saddlesack.  I had to reinforce it with leather.  That wouldn't have
>>> been a problem with the Logo.
>>>
>>
>>  I'm having some visual discord between a Tubus Logo Evo rear rack and a
>> Mark's front rack.  I would prefer they either both be black or both be
>> chrome, but would prefer to avoid a mismatch between them.  A silver
>> painted Logo wouldn't quite do it either.  I could get the Tubus Logo Evo
>> rear, but would need a matching black rack for the front.  I could get the
>> Marks' front, but would want a matching chrome rack for the rear.  Most of
>> the Tubus front seem oriented to panniers, which I'm not likely to use on
>> either end.  So, I could do my original guess of the Mark's front and the
>> Nitto R14 rear.  Or, I could do the Tubus Logo Evo rear, but would need
>> something for the font that was not pannier oriented.  Of course, I could
>> use the Tubus Logo Evo rear and keep my Ortleib Ultimate 6 Pro-M front
>> bar bag, not using a front rack at all.  Any further thoughts on this?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

[René Sterental]

Thank you all for your insights and feedback.

I'm feeling quite nervous and am trying to relieve the mental pressure. If
I need to get bailed out, so be it. I don't know if I'm aiming too much too
soon, sometimes it certainly feels that way when I assess how I feel after
2 - 3 hour rides. This, unfortunately, leads to personal sabotage so my
diet has suffered these past 3 days. It's why I had said I wouldn't set
goals for myself, because usually all I got was that psychological pressure
that always leads to some form of sabotage. But I couldn't resist...

So I'm not dead set in doing the whole ride, just as much as I feel OK
doing. I'll be by myself as my wife cannot come, but there is SAG support
I've used in previous occasions.

@Patrick: You are absolutely correct about how Maffetone describes the
feeling or "correct" progress. I feel usually feel great durning the day
after my rides, but my legs remain sore, my knees a bit and I'm taking a
day between rides where I just go for a long walk, usually.

I'm now reading his long book on endurance, and it's the principle of
"Listen to your Body" the one I'm focusing on to give me my final green/red
light. His insights about becoming fit aerobically and avoiding illness and
injury hit a nerve.

I think 8 weeks is still too soon, but I have to say I really enjoy the
approach and how it's making me feel. Can't measure progress on speed yet,
but definitely in being able to ride longer.

Again, the insights on nutrition during the events are very valuable. I
think I still have a long way to go before I become much better fat
adapted, lose the weight I still have to lose and become much more
aerobically fit. But at least I now know what the journey map is. Before,
it was a dark puzzling mystery to me!

I'll figure something out with all your suggestions and will start to try
them to see what works for me and what doesn't. But nothing will accelerate
the process so I'll just work on removing the pressure, enjoying the
journey and listening to my body.

Hope you're having a great long weekend!

René

On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Eric Karnes  wrote:

> Hi Rene-
>
> I went low carb / high fat this winter. And with the school year not quite
> over, I have yet to do any really long rides yet this season. But...in one
> of the Gary Taubes talks on YouTube (I forget which one), he mentions that
> he often brings a water bottle full of chicken broth (in addition to water)
> when he does intense workouts at the gym. As I said, I haven't tried it on
> long rides. But during the first week of my diet transition, I found a cup
> a day to be really helpful when I was feeling a bit weak from the 'carb
> withdrawal.'
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 2:41:27 AM UTC-4, René wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses.
>> Lost the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably
>> went a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about
>> just lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some
>> relapses.
>>
>> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the
>> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe
>> next Sunday.
>>
>> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite
>> fat adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the
>> morning, and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR
>> of 124 (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I
>> previously couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in
>> the aerobic base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short
>> climbs I couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>>
>> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've
>> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in
>> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind,
>> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like
>> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant
>> headwind.
>>
>> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home
>> I feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my
>> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>>
>> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm
>> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without
>> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I
>> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so
>> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the
>> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control
>> my pace and my nutrition.
>>
>> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way
>> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right