Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Philip Williamson]

Can you share links to forum posts recounting loss of tension with the ENO hub 
in low gears? 

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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[RBW] SO or QB with 55cm TT c-c?

[lum gim fong]

A 52? 54?
What wheel sizes?
Cantis?

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Re: [RBW] Banana Sax

[Patrick Moore]

Leah: how is the bicycle train doing. How many riders?

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:15 PM, Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> 3rd grader that is. 
>
> And here are some photos to show what the Backabike bags carry.
>
> See orange backpack? That fits, and fits when it is stuffed more than
> shown.
>
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>
> See left bag. Backpack fits fine. Edge is peeking out. Also room to carry
> a playmate’s bag on the rear rack. (He biked home with us for a play date
> after school.) Those bags don’t interfere with lashing items in the rack!
>
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>
> Violin shown with bungee nice and tight.
>
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>
> Sorry, back to banana sax...
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Dec 9, 2017, at 6:44 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <
> jonasandle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Bags are my Rivendell weakness. Some of your have multiple Rivs - I have
> one Riv and make up for it with an array of Sackville bags, ha! I even
> carry the gray Grabsack as my handbag, and it’s darling, I might add. The
> Backabike bags are my absolute favorite, Patrick Moore, and I think you can
> slip a paper grocery bag into them if the grocery bag is not stuffed.  I
> shove my ears grader’s rather full backpack in one and it fits fine. A
> violin goes in the other, and I just tighten the bungee cords around it to
> snug it up and leave the top flap open.
> >
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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Ian A]

Ah yes, that makes sense. Your Hunq is definitely subject to significant torque 
and having the chain tension fail under load, up a hill with a week's worth of 
groceries could be an unfortunate event.

I see a third bike in the offing :)

IanA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[lum gim fong]

 I'd leave the Hunq alone and just buy another single speed if poss. Remember: 
'Once you haq you can't go baq!".

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[RBW] Home of the Brave

[Scott McLain]

Fun Grant interview.  Maybe you all have already heard this.

http://homebrave.com/home-of-the-brave//the-bicycle-artist

Scott

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Deacon Patrick]

True, Doug. Requires a larger bottom bracket shell, though.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Clem H Last Chance

[Jeremy Tavan]

Heh. She and I both ride 52cm - mine with some post showing, hers with it 
slammed. There is noticeable flex when mashing the L, but not the happy planing 
type of flex, like my Reynolds 531 lightweight.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[dougP]

Tandems use an eccentric BB to allow tensioning the front chain.  Would 
that work?

dougP

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 6:17:30 PM UTC-8, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> If the ENO is a no go then it seems like you have 3 options: 
> 1) “Magic” gear marching front and rear that gives you perfect chain 
> length 
> 2) Cut out dropouts and get something brazed in that will allow chain 
> tenisioning. 
> 3) cut out Bottom Bracket shell and get something brazed in that allows 
> chain tensioning. 
>
> I am struggling the think of anything else. 1) is the least likely to 
> succeed with 3 being a near tie and 2 looking like a clear winner. 
> -J

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Deacon Patrick]

You got it, Justin. New dropouts is the option being explored.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Banana Sax

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Bags are my Rivendell weakness. Some of your have multiple Rivs - I have one 
Riv and make up for it with an array of Sackville bags, ha! I even carry the 
gray Grabsack as my handbag, and it’s darling, I might add. The Backabike bags 
are my absolute favorite, Patrick Moore, and I think you can slip a paper 
grocery bag into them if the grocery bag is not stuffed.  I shove my ears 
grader’s rather full backpack in one and it fits fine. A violin goes in the 
other, and I just tighten the bungee cords around it to snug it up and leave 
the top flap open.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Patrick Moore]

Has anyone else heard of the ENO eccentric shifting under load? I read a
great deal about it some years ago when I was using them and heard nothing
about this. A quick Google (vt) only turned up reports of the axle shifting
in the dropouts.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 7:17 PM, Justin, Oakland 
wrote:

> If the ENO is a no go then it seems like you have 3 options:
> 1) “Magic” gear marching front and rear that gives you perfect chain length
> 2) Cut out dropouts and get something brazed in that will allow chain
> tenisioning.
> 3) cut out Bottom Bracket shell and get something brazed in that allows
> chain tensioning.
>
> I am struggling the think of anything else. 1) is the least likely to
> succeed with 3 being a near tie and 2 looking like a clear winner.
> -J
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Justin, Oakland]

If the ENO is a no go then it seems like you have 3 options:
1) “Magic” gear marching front and rear that gives you perfect chain length
2) Cut out dropouts and get something brazed in that will allow chain 
tenisioning. 
3) cut out Bottom Bracket shell and get something brazed in that allows chain 
tensioning. 

I am struggling the think of anything else. 1) is the least likely to succeed 
with 3 being a near tie and 2 looking like a clear winner. 
-J

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Re: [RBW] Re: Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[Belopsky]

I'd love to see a geometry of the smaller sizes

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 5:32:00 PM UTC-6, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> Note to non-deacon Patrick about the singlespeeder: 
> Name:  Frank Jones Sr. 
> Not for: 26-inch wheels! ha.
> Upslope: 3-deg
> New lug seat tube super boss
> Custom lugs on head tube (the combo is unique, looks great)
> Fillet BB b/c the downtube is 28.6
> Color: Homer blue
> Rear dropout: Made it just for this bike. Wacky long rear entry two-eyes 
> hooded kind, looks l ike an alligator, soaks up 8t chainring diff
> Midfork braze-ons, as I recall. We'll get a sample soon. I could look it 
> up...I suppose
>
> Sizes: You should get a 59, but would probably want a 57. ha
>
> Name trivia: It was made for Blue Lug. I asked 'em if they had any name in 
> mind, or any style of name. Said no. I presented 5 names, four of which 
> were clever variants of ONE or SINGLE (Solouno...etc) plus the insane wild 
> card  super American sounding Frank Jones SR.  That's what they picked, and 
> I like it!
>
> 120 spacing
> rackmounts
> brake reach 59, which allows 38mm tire (a BL requirement)
>
> recommended brakes: the 559 sidepull, paul or compass cp, or the soon to 
> be reissued Dia-Compe 610 centerpull (with a max reach of 610mm)
>
> I'm getting a 59 for my short bursty sprints on the way to and from work, 
> with Albastache bars and 'Browns.
>
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 10:08 AM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> Grant said: "The SS project started out a dumb lark in the early 2000s, 
>> and has been tremendously successful. Not financially, but from the point 
>> of view that lots of riders have been given the chance to learn friction 
>> shifting, and if no SILVER, no chance. That's not important in the big 
>> picture, but to me, personally, it is huge. I'm really proud of it, not in 
>> an outward chest-thump way or a smug way, but in an inward way."
>>
>> That (in a general sense) is why Rivendell is worth keeping around -- so 
>> to speak. One gets so effing tired of hearing of "resource optimization" 
>> and "cost efficiencies" and "marketing focus strategies" and "product 
>> portfolio optimization". Puke, puke, puke. Make something because it's good 
>> and fun and useful!
>>
>> When will we hear geom specs for the SS? Will it plane? Will it work with 
>> my AM hub? How fat a tire?
>>
>> Patrick Moore, not going to buy a Roadini after all, but who knows about 
>> the SS, who still thinks the old Bar Con is the one to beat.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[Belopsky]

I'm impatiently waiting for the Frank Jones. If one of the smaller sizes 
fits me, I'm buying.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Deacon Patrick]

I’m going to trust White Industries knows thier products better than I. Grin. 
No more research needed for me. Loosing chain tension is apparently fairly 
common for high-torque riders on the forums I researched, which is why I asked 
the question.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[Patrick Moore]

Returning to the subject: One of the best fitting bikes I owned was a 1958
Herse with a 56 or 56 1/2 cm tt and a 60 cm st, that measurement being c-c.
And long ago, 1989 or 1990, I got measured at REI for a bike by one of
their pros (pro fitter, pro rider -- he was on their racing team) and he
recommended a REI model in a 60. My problem with more-than-57 or 58 (c-c)
sts on many frames is that with larger frames the tt is too long if I want
my bar in a certain relationship to the saddle.

But that Herse -- what a nice fit. Too bad it didn't handle or carry loads
as I wanted.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Grant Petersen  wrote:

> ...
>
> Sizes: You should get a 59, but would probably want a 57. ha
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps you put out more torque than I do, but I never had a problem with
my 2 ENOs when climbing hills in relatively high gears (again, 70" road,
63" off road).

I think more research is in order here.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 6:19 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Ian, I believe it is an issue with not holding chain tension under high
> torque.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Deacon Patrick]

Ian, I believe it is an issue with not holding chain tension under high torque.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Patrick Moore]

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> ...
> Patrick, I’m all in for fixed. It is another level ahead in terms of brain
> feel, and I’ll take all I can get. Definately not a seasonal change.
>

https://youtu.be/XnqJ41aDFfc?t=52


> I’m puzzling how to best go about the Hunqapillar conversion and in
> conversation with Grant. The Eno Eccentric hub is a no go because of the
> high torque.


What is the problem with the ENO and torque? I had no problems with it off
road or on.

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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Ian A]

Now, that is curious. What is it about the high torque that negates the option 
of the ENO on the Hunq? Is there a fear of snapping the right side drop out? 
I've never heard of the ENO causing such a problem.

Curious in Canada,
IanA

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'm not sure that my riding position qualifies as "upright" as being 
discussed in this thread but all of my bikes end up with the handlebars 
7-8cm higher than my saddle and I consider my position to be upright.  
 After years of discomfort, no matter what I tried, I accidently discovered 
that my reach to the bar has to be much longer than I thought.   I'm 5'11" 
and I'm riding a bike with a 61cm ETT, a 17 degree 110mm stem and that is 
the only combo that has given me any kind of comfort.  All of my rides are 
short but I experienced pain almost immediately with a shorter reach. 






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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Garth:
The reason for the short stems on uprights  is so I can sit bolt upright 
because leaning forward causes the pain on the sweep back areas of the 
upright bars.
I am fine leaning  on the tops of the Albatrii and Boscos, just like drops 
tops at any height. Its the swept back parts of bars that my hands don't 
like - (really at any height/distance).

The reason for short stems on drops for me is because I have a really short 
reach. My current setups on my Rambouillet and Bleriot and the Sam (which I 
don't own anymore) give me pain free, comfortable centuries, where i felt 
better at the end of the rides than before I got on the bike. So the 
current drop setups work great. This is for riding at my own paces 
(13-16mph). Its the slow 10mph pace rides with the wife that the hands 
complain. I guess some of the weight shifts from the pedals to the hands 
since I barely pedal and seem to mostly coast when I ride with her.

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Brian Campbell]

Count me as one who does not like upright bars as well. I have tried 
(Albatross, Mustache, MAP/Aherne, Jithensa, Riv Bull Moose, Nitto Straight 
bars, Nitto Risers) I get hand/palm pain very quickly. I use 46cm noodles, 
have been on the bike as long as 12hrs in one shot and had zero hand pain. 
I think you are correct in understanding the balance/distribution of weight.

 I have just accepted that drops are my bar of choice and moved on.

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 10:23:46 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
> drops. 
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[lum gim fong]

So in England they would freewheel or fixed for which season and why? I 
don't understand.


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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Craig Montgomery]

That's why the Brits had rear wheels that allowed freewheel on one side and 
fixed on the other. Come winter they'd flip the wheel, remove derailleur, 
shorten chain and off into a Northwest European winter. 

Craig in a Southwest American winter in Tucson

On Friday, December 8, 2017 at 5:09:09 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> In which the fixie flywheel dramatically increases traction both up and 
> down snowpack and slicksnow and I get out farther than ever under 
> conditions that would have frozen my derailer and that did freeze my front 
> brake.
> https://thegrid.ai/withabandon/rampart-fixed-gear-snow-ride 
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> www.CredoFamily.org
> www.MindYourHeadCoop.org
>

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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Deacon Patrick]

Lum, 65” and 42” (freewheel is a bit higher at 68” and 46”). I have a 44t cog 
and I may have room for it (technically I do, but that may be only with smaller 
tires, which I’m not going to do). That would give me a 70” top gear. But I 
really don’t see the need for it.
Patrick, I’m all in for fixed. It is another level ahead in terms of brain 
feel, and I’ll take all I can get. Definately not a seasonal change.

I’m puzzling how to best go about the Hunqapillar conversion and in 
conversation with Grant. The Eno Eccentric hub is a no go because of the high 
torque.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Banana Sax

[William R.]

Me likey! Is it me or would one of these work especially well on the front of 
my Appaloosa with Chocomooses? I think it will be great there. These look 
really good. Gotta get one!

Bill in Westchester, NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Patrick Moore]

Lum: I feel your pain. At least, I feel my pain, which seems to be similar
to yours. I've owned at least 6 original design Moustache bars, and I've
tried them on at least 8 bikes over the years; and while I really, really
like the idea, I've never been able to get them nearly as comfortable as
drop bars.

Right now, I have these original issue M bars on the Hon Solo. The bar
clamp on the HS is right at the very tippy top of the bar mast; I found
that M bars were uncomfortable, but more comfortable than the Ritchey (?)
cowhorns they replace; and I usually don't ride the HS for more than 10-12
miles at a time.

A period of time passed ...

Joe B of this list sold me a doohickey that clamps into the bar mast of
bikes like the HS, but pushes the bar out by 2". I added it, and what do
you know: same height, 2" more reach = more comfortable. But the HS bar
mast clamp doesn't clamp tight enough to keep this thing from rotating; so
I let it rotate all the way down, so that the M bar is now ~ 2" lower and
perhaps 1" further forward than when perched at the top of the mast.

Wala! Even more comfortable -- though still short term comfort. But less
hand pressure and pain than when considerably higher and closer in.

I've not tried the Albastache; perhaps one day I will.

I haven't installed a drop bar on the HS because the M bar with its more
nearly 2 dimensional shape folds tighter than the bike would with a drop
bar.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> Thanks for the reponses and input.
>
> I have tried upright twice now. Once with Albas on an oversized Sam, and
> once with Boscos on a 53 Bleriot, and Albas on a 55 Bleriot. I lasted a
> month with the Albas/Sam. I have had the Bleriot Bosco-ed for the better
> part of a year now. Hi/lowbars/near/Flyer/B67, etc. been tried.
> I have even tried mustache bars but they are a torture device to me. Hand
> pain in the first half mile of riding, inescapable for the rest of the ride
> since the same part of the hand (for me) is contacted in all bar positions
> on mustaches, except for the limited tops. So the torture never lets up.
> I guess I have sensitive hands.
> One guy told me once that some people may have their hand nerves running
> closer to the surface of their hands than others. This could be true as I
> have been a musician my whole life and perhaps this develops nerve growth
> in that direction. Just speculation, of course.
>
> Seems like drop bars are the most comfortable for me. I am happy with them.
> I keep them at ~1.3 cm below saddle. I have always been comfy on drops for
> all my riding, rec and centuries, commuting, etc. It is just the 10mph
> wife-rides pace that my hands start to complain.
>
> Maybe I will place drops on the Bleriot again, but set them as high as
> poss for the bike-wifery, and see if that relieves the hand pressure when
> riding slowly.
> I have tried hi drops on my own before and felt no diffs in hand pressure.
>
> I agree that hand pressure is probably more related to where the weight is
> distributed on a bike, a la PJW fit article.
>
> One day this will no longer be an issue because *she says that for her
> next bike she wants an electric bike!*
> Then I will be on the forum complaining that I can't get my bike up to her
> 20mph electric bike pace!!! Ha ha!!
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Patrick Moore]

A funny anecdote. (Well, funny to me, but probably very dreary to anyone
else, but who cares.) When I had my 2 later customs made, Grant gently
suggested 72* stas. For reasons I can't now remember, I insisted on 73*
parallel, and Grant graciously accommodated my stubbornness.

A few years later, as I was using a rubber mallet to pound my saddles (long
rail Flites, on large-setback DA 7410 seatposts) as far back as they could
physically go, I recalled this and wept.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Craig Montgomery 
wrote:

> I think that's why I'm so comfortable on my '38 Bates with a 70 degree
> seat tube angle.
>
> Craig in Tucson
>

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Re: [RBW] Banana Sax

[Patrick Moore]

That is nice! I've owned so many of the smaller Riv saddle wedges or bags,
from the very original, crudely (by later standards) sewn, kitchen table
bag (gave mine to my brother, but ought to get it back to keep if only as a
worthy museum piece) through multiple Bananas, but this looks like a real
winner. Oh dear, another want item for an already too long list.

Question: the Riv panniers: With mouth wide open, are they big enough to
easily accept a full but not distorted standard paper grocery sack? That
is, will one drop in with only gentle coaxing?

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> ..are in, I love the name. I saw the brown one when I was there a couple
> days ago, it's gorgeous.
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/bags/products/
> sackville-banana-sax?variant=649112584205
>
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[RBW] Banana Sax

[Joe Bernard]

..are in, I love the name. I saw the brown one when I was there a couple days 
ago, it's gorgeous. 

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/bags/products/sackville-banana-sax?variant=649112584205

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Re: [RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Patrick Moore]

Patrick: "nother question: Is your switched to fixed simply a practical
measure for very cold weather, so that you'll go back to freewheels in
warmer weather, or are you enjoying the fixed-ness of riding fixed?

People say that, riding a fixed wheel, they feel "more at one" with the
bike. I've never understood what they mean, but I do enjoy fixed more than
ss freewheel, for some reason -- I guess it comes down to the feeling of --
well, it can't be "flywheel" unless you have absolutely no slack in your
chain, *or* your wheel is jerking your legs over TDC; but there is a
smoothness to it that I don't feel with a freewheel.

One other annoying thing about riding fixed off road was that, in technical
sections, you couldn't quickly backpedal to get your legs in a favorable
position to clear an obstacle, or to drive down with immediate torque
immediately after clearing a dicey section; though this very liability may
be a plus for some riders. I didn't ride fixed off road long enough (a few
months) to learn to favor it; downhills, again drove me away.

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Re: [RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Patrick Moore]

Your Zen-trance talents must be far greater than mine; I didn't mind flats
and uphills in a 60" gear, but downhills were so annoying I switched to a
slightly higher geared freewheel. (I was not used to 175 mm cranks at the
time, which probably exacerbated the feeling. Of course, my hills were
undoubtedly far shorter than yours, but they were long enough (some
inclines were 2-3 miles) to annoy. And tail winds on the flats were bad,
too!

Patrick Moore, who just road his '99 gofast fixie on (well maintained and
hardpacked) winding dirt trails in ABQ, NM, in a 76" gear.



On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Lum, gear on the low side (40-50”). Ride. Learn. Gear up. Ride. Learn.
> Switch back. Ride. Learn. Switch forth. Ride. Learn. Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Garth]

Just from your description of the sensations I can tell this is fitting 
issue, not necessarily a bar issue.  It's all too easy and understandable 
to blame the bars themselves for a fitting and or frame/stem issue.  From 
the pics Lum, the Albatross bars are wa high, too high for you. The 
reach also is way overly short, it appears as though you used the same stem 
as for the drops.  A longer stem would help immensely .  The seat also may 
need a slight angle adjustment. 

Basically, an "upright" position can mean many things to many people. It's 
way overgeneralized and pigeonholed by this group and people in general. If 
the bike frame and stem choice allow for it, you can get stretched out on 
an Albatross or Albastache or Choco or whatever. You really have to know 
yourself and be willing to abandon preconceived notions if necessary, or 
not !  !

>

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[RBW] Re: Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[lum gim fong]

Patric,
What inches are you using in your mountainous terrain? 

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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Thanks for the reponses and input.

I have tried upright twice now. Once with Albas on an oversized Sam, and 
once with Boscos on a 53 Bleriot, and Albas on a 55 Bleriot. I lasted a 
month with the Albas/Sam. I have had the Bleriot Bosco-ed for the better 
part of a year now. Hi/lowbars/near/Flyer/B67, etc. been tried.
I have even tried mustache bars but they are a torture device to me. Hand 
pain in the first half mile of riding, inescapable for the rest of the ride 
since the same part of the hand (for me) is contacted in all bar positions 
on mustaches, except for the limited tops. So the torture never lets up.
I guess I have sensitive hands.
One guy told me once that some people may have their hand nerves running 
closer to the surface of their hands than others. This could be true as I 
have been a musician my whole life and perhaps this develops nerve growth 
in that direction. Just speculation, of course.

Seems like drop bars are the most comfortable for me. I am happy with them.
I keep them at ~1.3 cm below saddle. I have always been comfy on drops for 
all my riding, rec and centuries, commuting, etc. It is just the 10mph 
wife-rides pace that my hands start to complain.

Maybe I will place drops on the Bleriot again, but set them as high as poss 
for the bike-wifery, and see if that relieves the hand pressure when riding 
slowly.
I have tried hi drops on my own before and felt no diffs in hand pressure.

I agree that hand pressure is probably more related to where the weight is 
distributed on a bike, a la PJW fit article.

One day this will no longer be an issue because *she says that for her next 
bike she wants an electric bike!*
Then I will be on the forum complaining that I can't get my bike up to her 
20mph electric bike pace!!! Ha ha!!



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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Craig Montgomery]

I think that's why I'm so comfortable on my '38 Bates with a 70 degree seat 
tube angle. 

Craig in Tucson

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 11:42:48 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Several people have described this experience on the list. I've found, as 
> have others, that sometimes you relieve, not only your seat, but your 
> shoulders, arms, and hands by moving the saddle back to get more of an 
> angle between hip and pedals, and let your torso muscles hold more of your 
> torso's weight. 
>
> This happens not only with drops but with bars of all sorts, IME.
>
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:23 AM, lum gim fong  > wrote:
>
>> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without 
>> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on 
>> drops.
>>
>>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the 
>> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was 
>> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. 
>> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with 
>> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>>
>> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
>> endure while upright.
>>
>> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut 
>> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought 
>> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>>
>> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>>
>> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>
>
>
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> **
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Re: [RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Deacon Patrick]

Lum, gear on the low side (40-50”). Ride. Learn. Gear up. Ride. Learn. Switch 
back. Ride. Learn. Switch forth. Ride. Learn. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Lee Legrand]

What about recumbent bicycle?  It puts you in a position in which it should
(at least I think it should) remove the stress from arms and buttocks that
a typical bicycle puts you in.  It may not the coolest looking way of
cycling but I think it should be an option for aging cyclist who can no
longer be in the bent position of road drops or be upright due to back or
buttock pains.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Several people have described this experience on the list. I've found, as
> have others, that sometimes you relieve, not only your seat, but your
> shoulders, arms, and hands by moving the saddle back to get more of an
> angle between hip and pedals, and let your torso muscles hold more of your
> torso's weight.
>
> This happens not only with drops but with bars of all sorts, IME.
>
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:23 AM, lum gim fong 
> wrote:
>
>> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without
>> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on
>> drops.
>>
>>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the
>> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was
>> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops.
>> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with
>> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>>
>> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to
>> endure while upright.
>>
>> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut
>> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought
>> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>>
>> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>>
>> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks for confirming, Steve.

Now I just need to determine which to get for my use in the PNW where it is
cool and often wet in fall, winter, and spring.  A read back through prior
threads may help me there.  My use will be general in addition to on the
bicycle.  A Glencoe DV may be the most versatile and likely most
comfortable during winter, though a Talorc HV may be more comfortable in
fall and spring.  The Braemer HV is tempting also.  It certainly looks
nice, but a full zip jacket is likely more versatile.  Hmmm.  It's a good
thing I'm not in a hurry. :)

Tim

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> From what I can see on their web site, Hilltrek garments are all made of
> Ventile.  I have a Westwinds Ventile jacket. Ventile is tightly woven
> cotton.  It's got a hard, smooth finish that isn't either nappy or sticky.
>

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam wheelset

[EasyRider]

I'm eager to see the Frank Jones on the Blug. Should be any day now?

I hemmed and hawed and bought a 53 rosco road instead -- same thinking as you 
and the bob Jackson: 130mm spacing, can be single speeded or geared.

But, again, the drawback of a 120 hub in a 130 frame is gear selection. If you 
plan to use say, a 42 or 44 chainring you might have trouble with chainstay 
clearance.

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Re: [RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Patrick Moore]

I can answer for myself: First, I started riding fixed relatively young --
42, IIRC -- when my knees were strong, and perhaps got them used to it; and
I gradually learned to stand for longish periods, which puts less strain on
your knees. Also, I rarely ride longer than 30 miles at once.

In short, you can adapt to standing for long periods.

Further, if you don't do this already, learn to shove back way behind the
bb, so that you are pushing the pedal over TDC, to some extent. Lastly, you
can also "scrape" the pedal at BDC, and pull up (this requires cleats of
some sort to be easy, IME) for a bit of extra torque.

I find longish, gradual hills among the most enjoyable of terrains; 68" to
76" gears with current bikes. Heck, I climb that way on my derailleur
bikes, too, though perhaps a tooth or so lower.

Patrick Moore, whose near-63-year-old knees seem to be fine, Deo gratias.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:40 AM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> My only concern for myself regarding trying fixed is hurting my knees by
> always trying to pedal too hard. Hilly where I live. I see it is even
> hillier where Patric lives.  So how do you pedal up those long, tough hills
> without shooting meniscus out the sides, especially at our middle age?
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Patrick Moore]

Several people have described this experience on the list. I've found, as
have others, that sometimes you relieve, not only your seat, but your
shoulders, arms, and hands by moving the saddle back to get more of an
angle between hip and pedals, and let your torso muscles hold more of your
torso's weight.

This happens not only with drops but with bars of all sorts, IME.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:23 AM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on
> drops.
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops.
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Bob B]

I always ride upright and I've found that if the saddle height is about 
even with the grips (or grips just a smidge higher), that is a sweet spot, 
assuming the grips are comfy and the saddle's broken in.

Sometimes you see these setups depicted on the riv website/blug with the 
stem at max height, much above the saddle height. Ive tried that but, for 
long-distance, the butt starts to hurt.

So you could try again, lowering the stem so that grips are at a height 
that encourages a better butt-hands pressure distribution?

Bob B
Brooklyn, NY

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[RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Bill Schairer]

I agree.  I bought a used Atlantis with Albastache bars with intention of 
changing out to drops immediately.  Decided to give the Albastaches a chance.  
They started to grow on me but, many adjustments later, they stopped growing 
and I ditched them for drops.  I gave the Albastaches nearly 1000 miles before 
I gave up, though I had lowered them several time fairly quickly so I wasn’t 
necessarily upright for very long.  In any event, my butt needs a rest long 
before my hands do.  Upright does nothing for me.

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[RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Surlyprof]

I found the same thing when I shifted from albastache to albatross due to a 
shoulder injury.  After trying out several different saddles, I found that a 
Brooks Flyer Special did the trick.  It doesn't bounce a lot which is nice.  
Just enough to remove the discomfort.  My only complaints are that it does 
creak a little while riding and they don't make an Imperial Flyer in honey 
leather.

John

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Well, yeah. 40 miles I imagine I might get fatigued a bit on uprights as 
well. But I've never done 40 miles on upright bars. For me, uprights have a 
naturally imposed range of about half that, and most of the trips are under 
10 miles. I know there are folks on the list who ride exclusively on 
uprights, and probably do 40-100 mile rides on them. I guess if/when I 
can't ride drops any more, I'll ride longer with uprights. But right now, 
for me, they cover two distinct duties. Also, after being on several 
bike-related lists over many years, I have come to appreciate my body's 
tolerances for a fairly wide variety of setups on bicycles. Spicey! Plus, I 
figure I'm not on my couch, I'm out on a machine moving body parts--a 
little stiffness or slight discomfort now and then, especially on 40+ mile 
rides, is part of the territory. ("Massively fatigued" is obviously another 
league, and presumably should not be ignored.) 

I would second that you don't always just switch out bars and go. There are 
a few other variables. And for really upright, like my Clementine with 
Boscos, I like a wider saddle for sure.

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 7:55:17 AM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Interesting you say 40 miles, Steve. It was at that distance that I 
> noticed my hands getting massively fatigued (Sam/Albas/Tallux max 
> height/max aft). And that was when riding solo at my own pace. Cork grips 
> are hard as rocks. That's when I found that out. But I don't think it was 
> really the grips. Because I would get marks in my hands from upright riding 
> and I could always feel the pressure on my hands at any bar height with 
> uprights.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[nash5510]

I was uncomfortable on upright bars until I traded up to a bigger frame.  I'm 
not sure about all the mechanics of it but I kept trying to get my bars more up 
and closer to be more comfortable but getting the right balance is the 
important thing.  Being balanced between saddle and bars.  

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[RBW] Re: FS: 700c Wheelset and Dyno, Sugino crank, Schwalbe, Cazadero

[drew]

They are true. Maybe 600 miles on rear, 400 on front, give or take. I've never 
really known how to evaluate braking surface, but I can send you photos if you 
pm me. 

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Steve,

I do not know what set up will do that but maybe he should perform
experiments on different drop bars or mustache type bars which have smaller
drops than typical road drop bars.  It is just a suggestion for him to
explore.  SOMAFAB has mustache type bars for him to explore that do not
have the typical drops.

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/09/2017 10:55 AM, lum gim fong wrote:
>
>> Interesting you say 40 miles, Steve. It was at that distance that I
>> noticed my hands getting massively fatigued (Sam/Albas/Tallux max
>> height/max aft). And that was when riding solo at my own pace. Cork grips
>> are hard as rocks. That's when I found that out. But I don't think it was
>> really the grips. Because I would get marks in my hands from upright riding
>> and I could always feel the pressure on my hands at any bar height with
>> uprights.
>>
>
> Exactly.
>
> --
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/09/2017 10:55 AM, lum gim fong wrote:

Interesting you say 40 miles, Steve. It was at that distance that I noticed my 
hands getting massively fatigued (Sam/Albas/Tallux max height/max aft). And 
that was when riding solo at my own pace. Cork grips are hard as rocks. That's 
when I found that out. But I don't think it was really the grips. Because I 
would get marks in my hands from upright riding and I could always feel the 
pressure on my hands at any bar height with uprights.


Exactly.

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USA

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/09/2017 11:29 AM, Lee Legrand wrote:

Hi Lum,

Have you thought about getting a set up that allows you to go from one 
extent to another?  Another way of saying is, can you get a bicycle 
setup in which you can ride upright for the most part and when you 
butt feet uncomfortable, you can get down more to relieve the stress?  
Then you oscillate between the two positions of aching butt and aching 
hands?





Which is exactly what well-set up drop bars lets you do

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[RBW] Re: FS: 700c Wheelset and Dyno, Sugino crank, Schwalbe, Cazadero

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

Hey, Drew- What's the condition of the wheelset(braking surface, 
mileage,trueness)?

Thanks
Tim

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Lee Legrand]

Hi Lum,

Have you thought about getting a set up that allows you to go from one
extent to another?  Another way of saying is, can you get a bicycle setup
in which you can ride upright for the most part and when you butt feet
uncomfortable, you can get down more to relieve the stress?  Then you
oscillate between the two positions of aching butt and aching hands?

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Justin, Oakland 
wrote:

> I have found a few things to be true:
> - Upright doesn’t have to mean Albatross bars at max height. I’m upright
> with my MAP bars which allow my wrists to bend somewhat similarly to hoods.
> - Saddles tend to need be differently shaped/positioned to ride in
> different postures.
> - Geometry of a bike can make it not great for different people riding in
> different positions. My Bleriot was always drop bars or Jitensha bars.
> - I kind of hate Albatross bars too. Riding them isn’t a fun for me but
> actually can be terrifying based on how they are set up.
>
> -Justin
>
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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Justin, Oakland]

I have found a few things to be true:
- Upright doesn’t have to mean Albatross bars at max height. I’m upright with 
my MAP bars which allow my wrists to bend somewhat similarly to hoods.
- Saddles tend to need be differently shaped/positioned to ride in different 
postures.
- Geometry of a bike can make it not great for different people riding in 
different positions. My Bleriot was always drop bars or Jitensha bars.
- I kind of hate Albatross bars too. Riding them isn’t a fun for me but 
actually can be terrifying based on how they are set up. 

-Justin

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[RBW] FS: Schmidt Son 28/Phil Wood Wheelset, Edelux II Front Light

[Justin Schoop]

Items are sold!

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[George Schick]

I concur with the comments here about upright being less comfortable than 
drops.  I have drops on my two road bikes and uprights on my two MTB's - 
one has standard straight MTB bars, the other has "cow horn" bars.  I had 
change up the saddle and bar heights just to get somewhere near comfortable 
on those.

I'm a bit confused by the "...hand discomfort  that comes with riding that 
slow for an entire ride on drops..."  Can't you ride 90% of the time with 
your hands on the brake levers?  And the brake levers can be moved around 
to get the most comfortable position for the hand/reach.  I've never 
experienced much discomfort riding long distances with hands on or near the 
brake levers most of the time.

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 9:48:00 AM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> @listers: 
>
> TW: "wifespeeds"  refers to the joyful riding I do with my wife when she 
> wants to go riding and I go along with her. We have spent many years riding 
> together. Her average speed is about 10 miles an hour. So the term is just 
> my playful way of referring to that riding experience. Definitely not a 
> term in reference to any other riders. 
>
> Most Women make me look like I am going in reverse as they pass me. 

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Interesting you say 40 miles, Steve. It was at that distance that I noticed my 
hands getting massively fatigued (Sam/Albas/Tallux max height/max aft). And 
that was when riding solo at my own pace. Cork grips are hard as rocks. That's 
when I found that out. But I don't think it was really the grips. Because I 
would get marks in my hands from upright riding and I could always feel the 
pressure on my hands at any bar height with uprights.

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

@listers:

TW: "wifespeeds"  refers to the joyful riding I do with my wife when she wants 
to go riding and I go along with her. We have spent many years riding together. 
Her average speed is about 10 miles an hour. So the term is just my playful way 
of referring to that riding experience. Definitely not a term in reference to 
any other riders.

Most Women make me look like I am going in reverse as they pass me. 

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/09/2017 10:23 AM, lum gim fong wrote:

So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without hand 
discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on drops.

  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the hands is 
reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was nonexistent when 
I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. I am more 
comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with drops, turns out. 
No matter the bar heights or saddles.

Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
endure while upright.

I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut Creek 
finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought I'd 
include it as a datapoint here.


Here's another datapoint to add to yours.  "Upright" == painful hands, 
sometimes in as short a distance as 5 miles, but under the best of 
circumstances never any longer than 40.  Drops are comfortable >= 100 miles.






Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?


You bet.  Not my cup of tea at all.


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Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

Thanks for the feedback.

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[RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[lum gim fong]

My only concern for myself regarding trying fixed is hurting my knees by always 
trying to pedal too hard. Hilly where I live. I see it is even hillier where 
Patric lives.  So how do you pedal up those long, tough hills without shooting 
meniscus out the sides, especially at our middle age?

I have been learning to relax the legs while climbing in a very slow cadence to 
avoid mashing too hard. This seems to work for anything under 4%. But there 
comes a point where I will have to unhealthily mash or LCG. So this keeps me 
from buying a single speed bike. But I would love a single speed bike to have 
the mental relaxation of never shifting gears.

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Re: [RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[Steven Sweedler]

Lum, I am another who only rides drops, my bikes have 48 Noodles. I set up
an in town bike with North Road bars and never felt especially secure at
any speed. Steve
Plymouth, NH

On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 10:23 AM lum gim fong  wrote:

> So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without
> hand discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on
> drops.
>
>  What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the
> hands is reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was
> nonexistent when I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops.
> I am more comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with
> drops, turns out. No matter the bar heights or saddles.
>
> Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to
> endure while upright.
>
> I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut
> Creek finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought
> I'd include it as a datapoint here.
>
> Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?
>
> I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.
>
>
>
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-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[RBW] Found Upright riding worse than drops riding.

[lum gim fong]

So I converted the Bleriot to upright so I could ride wifespeeds without hand 
discomfort  that comes with riding that slow for an entire ride on drops. 

 What I have found, in riding upright,  is that the discomfort of the hands is 
reduced 75% and the butt discomfort 100% increase ( which was nonexistent when 
I rode with drops) makes me want to just go back to drops. I am more 
comfortable riding at wifespeed (and all other speeds) with drops, turns out. 
No matter the bar heights or saddles.

Also, headwinds are noticably more noticeable and wintry blasts harder to 
endure while upright.

I don't think I have never heard of someone on this list, or from Walnut Creek 
finding uprighting to be less comfortable than dropsing. So I thought I'd 
include it as a datapoint here.

Has anyone here also found upriding to not be their cup of tea?

I will say though that upriding provides fantastic views.



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[RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[WETH]

Best thing I've read and the best photographs Ive encountered this week!  Well 
done as always!

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Re: [RBW] "Winter" clothing help

[Steve Palincsar]

From what I can see on their web site, Hilltrek garments are all made 
of Ventile.  I have a Westwinds Ventile jacket. Ventile is tightly woven 
cotton.  It's got a hard, smooth finish that isn't either nappy or sticky.



On 12/08/2017 10:53 PM, Tim Butterfield wrote:
I am thinking of getting my first Hilltrek garment.  I am not sure 
which one yet, but I have a question about the fabrics.  Since they 
are not inexpensive, I would like to find out about something before 
making the investment.  It relates to how they react to pet fur.


Here are how some of the fabrics I have experience with have reacted 
to the fur of our white German Shepherd Dog Polortec synthetics seem 
to be a magnet.  Fabric collects fur and it gets embedded in it 
easily.  A long session with a lint roller or tape is needed to remove 
it all.  The Filsen waxed cotton tin cloth has a slight nap that seems 
to easily trap fur and the wax acts as a slight adhesive to help it 
adhere. Removing the pet fur is not as bad as Polartec, but it isn't 
really easy either.  It adheres slightly to tightly woven wools, but 
is fairly easily removed with a lint roller with the occasional piece 
needing to be pulled out.  The Filsen waxed cotton shelter cloth does 
not have the nap of the tin cloth and fur is more easily brushed off.  
The most resistant to pet fur seem to be leather, nylon, and 
waterproof breathable synthetic membrane fabrics where fur just falls off.


So, how do the Hilltrek fabrics react to pet fur?  Does it get 
embedded like a Polartec, stick to it like tin cloth, or fall off like 
with leather or a membrane synthetic?


Thanks.

Tim




On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Deacon Patrick > wrote:


Fred,

40 and dry, easy. 40 and wet, challenging. It’s all about moisture
management. In Colorado, when we have thunderstorms in spring,
summer, and fall, temps easly are in the 40’s or 50’s with high
humidity (90+%).

The key to either begins with the baselayer. Fishnet longjohns.
https://www.brynjeusa.com

Depending on how warmblooded you are, on a dry day you may only
need a thin shirt over that (I wear a medium weight cotton flannel
shirt over mind for freezing up to 50’s.) No other layer required.

When wet, you have a choice. Dither and play with the synthetics
trying to make them work and spending a lot discovering they do
not, or pony up once for Ventile and/or Cotton Anlalogy from
Hilltrek and be done with it. http://hilltrek.co.uk When wind or
wet or both get added to the mix, it’s spot on what to wear as
your outer layer. Breathes almost like a t-shirt, keeps wet out,
so you get wet neither from your sweat nor from rain/sleet/snow.

Gloves, get the boiled wool gloves from here:

https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear-boiled-wool-sweaters-mitts-socks-caps-gloves/


and you’ll be fine down to 25 or so. They have a leather palmed
one if you like. I just wear their mitten, no leather palm. Works
great (15˚F on today’s ride, no overmit needed). Also, their 3-ply
hat is brilliant for those conditions (4-ply is overkill by far).
Socks too, but you may need larger shoes or you’ll just cut off
your blood supply to your feet and be VERY cold and think the
socks don’t work.) Or the hood on the jacket may be all you need.

Not light weight, but if you have to stop riding unexpectadly,
you’ll be comfortable and warm. Play with the layering, how heavy
an insulative layer (I switch to a sweater below 20˚F) and when to
wear/not wear your ventile shell and you’re golden and toasty.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Alexandria, Virginia
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[RBW] Re: Clem H Last Chance

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Whoops. Lost a word. Should read "I have a 52 and I have *not* noticed any 
significant flex..."

On Saturday, December 9, 2017 at 6:16:04 AM UTC-8, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
>
> That's called "planing," dude, and you're supposed to love it. But 
> seriously, and curiously, what size is your wife's Clementine? I have a 52 
> and I  have noticed any significant flex, and that would be an 
> understatement. I do recall mention in the Clem literature of the slight 
> flexing potential on a 59 'tine with a load.
>
> On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 7:13:23 PM UTC-8, Jeremy Tavan wrote:
>>
>> Understandable, given the feedback on the two models I've been reading 
>> here. That said, I vastly prefer my Clem H to my wife's Clementine L. Hers 
>> is certainly prettier, but the flex bothers me.
>>
>> /Jeremy
>>
>> On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 6:59:54 PM UTC-8, Doug H. wrote:
>>>
>>> The BLUG hints that this may be the last run of the Clem H. Get em while 
>>> you can!
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Clem H Last Chance

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That's called "planing," dude, and you're supposed to love it. But 
seriously, and curiously, what size is your wife's Clementine? I have a 52 
and I  have noticed any significant flex, and that would be an 
understatement. I do recall mention in the Clem literature of the slight 
flexing potential on a 59 'tine with a load.

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 7:13:23 PM UTC-8, Jeremy Tavan wrote:
>
> Understandable, given the feedback on the two models I've been reading 
> here. That said, I vastly prefer my Clem H to my wife's Clementine L. Hers 
> is certainly prettier, but the flex bothers me.
>
> /Jeremy
>
> On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 6:59:54 PM UTC-8, Doug H. wrote:
>>
>> The BLUG hints that this may be the last run of the Clem H. Get em while 
>> you can!
>
>

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[RBW] CHEVIOT For Me

[WETH]

Congrats! You'll love it! I've ridden mine about 2700 miles in the last year 
commuting and light touring.  https://flic.kr/p/YKKibX
And more photos:https://flickr.com/photos/86975051@N08/sets/72157665232090983

The blue color is quite nice.  Joe, your custom red will be atunning!
All the best,
Erl
Kensington, MD

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[RBW] Fixed Gear Snow Ride

[Tony DeFilippo]

I'll admit I'm accurately pondering fixed after this description Patrick... 
I've only tried it once stone the block and didn't love it but your description 
of the climbing traction is intriguing.  As always the pictures and story 
telling are excellent. If nothing else I'm theilen you've found something that 
works so well for you and also worked well with your existing Riv bikes!

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