Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Joe Bernard]

Two reasons I can think of: 1. Compliance over bumps because you're less "on 
top" of the rear wheel. 2. Rivs are designed at the bottom of a crazy 
fast/steep mountain; the long wheelbase may be more stable sailing down that 
road. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Drw]

I’ve owned a Sam, Clem, 2 atlanti, hunq and a Rosco mixte. None have felt 
remotely unstable and the Clem doesn’t feel noticeably more stable than any of 
the other models. I truly don’t understand this push for the super long stays.

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[Joe Bernard]

I just ordered one today. Doh!

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[RBW] WTB: Carradice Bagman Bicycle Support + Zefal HPX silver

[Sean Kline]

Hi all: 

(apologies for cross-posting to iBoB and RBW)

I'm ready-ing for L'Eroica  California 
next month with my Quickbeam. Does someone have one or the other (or 
goldmine—both!) of these items below gathering dust in their garage?


   - Carradice Bagman Bicycle Support  
   
(not
 
   quick release version)
   - Zefal HPX silver (not black)—No. 4 fits tube gaps 50cm - 56cm 
   

Thanks,
Sean

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[RBW] WTB: Bullmoose bars

[Reid Echols]

Much as I like my Albatross bars, I’m looking for something wider. Anyone 
looking to sell some bullmoose bars? Bonus points if you’re local.

Thanks,
Reid in Austin, TX

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[twowheeledtexan]

Joe,
I own both the rack and a Cheviot. I haven't tried mounting it, but I will and 
let you know. And if you haven't bought one yet I'll sell it to ya. Give me a 
day or so and I'll report back. Bought it for another project that didn't 
happen.

Aaron

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Joe Bernard]

It does not make sense to keep doing the MUSA Atlantis, at least not under that 
name. Maybe they can create an All Rounder decal for it. 

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Stuart Lovinggood]

As a former Appaloosa owner, I'm a little disappointed to see the 
extra-long chainstays and 6° TT come to the Atlantis. Although the Joe is 
billed as an "all-arounder," IME that is quite a subjective term. I found 
climbing unwieldy without a sizable front load (especially on dirt), and 
with the long top tube, drop bars are not as feasible for some riders using 
Riv's suggested sizing (myself included). I would consider the existing 
Atlantis geo to be more all-rounder, a balance of traditional stack and 
reach numbers with the mid-length chainstays. 

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:57:24 PM UTC-7, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>
> I wonder why they decided to extend the chainstays - that Blug picture 
> looks like it has Clem/Appaloosa length stays (maybe it's an illusion from 
> 26" wheels?). Didn't the Atlantis already have 48cm chainstays? All the 
> other changes seem like a good idea to me, but this just seems like turning 
> the Atlantis into an Appaloosa.
>
> I started a separate thread about super long chainstays and taking your 
> bike on buses/trains.
>
> Eamon
>
>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Christopher Murray]

I think over the last few years and especially over the last year there has 
been a “the Taiwan bikes are just as good as the U.S. bikes” vibe from Grant/ 
Riv. The Taiwanese builder has come a long way from the pre-Rivendell days and 
the Bleriot don’t-look-too-closely-at-the-paint days. 

I love Waterford but does it really make sense for them to keep making the 
Atlantis? 

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[nash5510]

I too am curious about these seemingly super long stays.  Can you ever pop even 
a small wheelie??  All fpr comfort and stability but that looks like an awfully 
long bike?

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[RBW] Billie Bar Width - New Albatross

[nash5510]

I ride surly open bars which are 666mm wide.  Love them.  They don't sweep back 
as far though.  

Those bars look nice though I would be concerned with far they sweep back.  I 
would need a long or a long too tube.  Which cpuld be perfect for some riv 
models.  Seems like top tubes are getting longer. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Sky Coulter]

Ya, I think the appaloosas are great, but i don’t see how the two models would 
be distinguished enough to justify keeping both.

Sky in new west

> On Mar 20, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Jonathan D.  wrote:
> 
> I’ll be curious to see how an Appaloosa and Atlantis differ. The new Atlantis 
> seems similar. I expect the Appaloosa will probably be canceled. Regardless 
> of whether it’s a Joe or Atlantis, both are great bikes. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Jonathan D.]

I’ll be curious to see how an Appaloosa and Atlantis differ. The new Atlantis 
seems similar. I expect the Appaloosa will probably be canceled. Regardless of 
whether it’s a Joe or Atlantis, both are great bikes. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Drw]

I think making the Atlantis that long is a mistake. It’s an iconic bike, that 
already has objectively long stays, and there are other long models. I see no 
reason for this. Cheaper atlantis is great, but at what point is an Atlantis 
not an Atlantis. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Joe Bernard]

Where the similar bike/different price issue becomes sticky is New Atlantis vs. 
Appaloosa. We're talking $2-300 and a different fork crown. I don't see both 
frames coexisting for long. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Joe Bernard]

You could probably add/substract $800 from a dozen bike company's models to 
come up with the statement "it's this bike but a different name, a few 
different details and a different price." There's only so many ways to join 
tubes to two wheels. 

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[RBW] Re: FS: 52cm Rivendell Clem Smith Jr L

[Belopsky]

Bump.
Get your step-through new Atlantis here

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Richard Rios]

So it's a Clem with a few more lugs atlantis paint and roughly 800$ more price 
tag? Not sure I see the appeal...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The longest chainstays I have are about 45cm, in my 87 Trek Antelope, although 
the overall wheelbase is pretty long because of the 70 degree hta and 52mm fork 
rake. That bike is super stable. I bet 47-48cm would feel similar with 700c 
wheels. My 83 Trek 520 has 43cm chainstays and it’s a totally different animal. 
I remember test riding a 720 back in 1983, and it felt super stable.
I’m sure I could enjoy the extra long wheelbase, but it seems like there are 
downsides - especially for an “all rounder”.

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[RBW] Re: Super long chainstays and putting your bike buses/trains

[CMR]

I sold my Clem because it didn't fit in my shed and it was not fun to lug 
around elevators or on a busy train. There are definite downsides to uber 
long wheelbase rides!

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 4:34:18 PM UTC-7, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>
> I was just thinking about how Rivendell is moving towards very long 
> chainstays, and how that might impact people wanting to put their bike on 
> the racks on city buses, or the hooks on light rail trains. I don't 
> personally use either very often, but do occasionally need to do both 
> options. I personally wouldn't consider a bike that was too long for the 
> bus or commuter train. I don't know how long the new Atlantis is, but in 
> the case of the Clem in my size, I'm pretty sure that they are too long for 
> the racks on Seattle city buses. I'm not sure on others, since the geometry 
> charts don't list wheelbase length. It probably impacts transporting your 
> bike with a car as well.
>
> I'm not arguing for or against the choice - it just got me thinking that 
> there is a potential downside that is unrelated to whether or not you like 
> the handling or looks.
>
> Eamon
> Seattle
>

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[RBW] Re: Super long chainstays and putting your bike buses/trains

[Birdman]

Part of my daily commute in Portland (OR) is on a light rail train.  I ride 
a 68cm Quickbeam and a 65cm Atlantis from 2017 that has the 48cm 
chainstays.  The Quickbeam fits on the bike hooks with maybe an inch to 
spare, but the Atlantis is a no go.  I definitely see it as a con of the 
longer chainstays, but not enough to take away from the benefits.  The 
Atlantis handles unlike any bike I've ever ridden: smooth, steady, and sure 
while remaining responsive.  I suspect that some of it is due to what are, 
compared to all other bikes I've owned, pretty darn long chainstays.  I'd 
love to try a Clem or an Appaloosa and see what the super long stays are 
all about...

Isaac
pdx  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Belopsky]

jeeez these chainstays
https://78.media.tumblr.com/70eee77959f0dfa2cdd3d2cc9c9feb75/tumblr_p5wqvaobFh1qe3ngpo1_1280.jpg

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[RBW] Billie Bar Width - New Albatross

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

News flash: The new Billie bars will be 58cm wide! I emailed Riv to ask and 
made sure it was okay to share with y'all.

If you haven't heard of them yet, they are a longer sweep, less rise and wider 
albatross. I kind of think this is a picture of them that they quietly snuck on 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf5JwDeAFkR/ anyone know for sure?

I'm stoked and I know there are others who've been wanting a wide albatross 
bar. I wonder how much different that extra 3cm does. Guess I'll have to buy 
some to find out!

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Patrick Moore]

Curious about the chainstays too. Those of you who have ridden long (50 cm
+?) and short (45 cm, as on my road customs?), what does the added length
do to handling?

I have to say that by the standards of most bikes, even 45 is long, though
am I right in thinking that this was "road normal" before the late
'70s/early '80s flip to very short wheelbases? My 1973 Motobecane had ~45
cm stays, and while I didn't measure those on my '89 Falcon, the frame was
notable for a very short font-center and a long rear.

But the best handling bikes I've owned have had stays well over what seems
to be a standard 42 cm -- probably due to a combination of stays plus other
design elements.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:57 PM, 'Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I wonder why they decided to extend the chainstays - that Blug picture
> looks like it has Clem/Appaloosa length stays (maybe it's an illusion from
> 26" wheels?). Didn't the Atlantis already have 48cm chainstays? All the
> other changes seem like a good idea to me, but this just seems like turning
> the Atlantis into an Appaloosa.
>
> I started a separate thread about super long chainstays and taking your
> bike on buses/trains.
>
> Eamon
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I wonder why they decided to extend the chainstays - that Blug picture 
looks like it has Clem/Appaloosa length stays (maybe it's an illusion from 
26" wheels?). Didn't the Atlantis already have 48cm chainstays? All the 
other changes seem like a good idea to me, but this just seems like turning 
the Atlantis into an Appaloosa.

I started a separate thread about super long chainstays and taking your 
bike on buses/trains.

Eamon


>

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[RBW] Super long chainstays and putting your bike buses/trains

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I was just thinking about how Rivendell is moving towards very long 
chainstays, and how that might impact people wanting to put their bike on 
the racks on city buses, or the hooks on light rail trains. I don't 
personally use either very often, but do occasionally need to do both 
options. I personally wouldn't consider a bike that was too long for the 
bus or commuter train. I don't know how long the new Atlantis is, but in 
the case of the Clem in my size, I'm pretty sure that they are too long for 
the racks on Seattle city buses. I'm not sure on others, since the geometry 
charts don't list wheelbase length. It probably impacts transporting your 
bike with a car as well.

I'm not arguing for or against the choice - it just got me thinking that 
there is a potential downside that is unrelated to whether or not you like 
the handling or looks.

Eamon
Seattle

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Drw]

I'm pretty sure i could get 2.2's and fenders in my 650b atlantis without 
too much work. not sure about 2.35 though. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Tony DeFilippo]

I have to admit I'm now contemplating what I'd do if presented with a new
650B Atlantis shod with 2.35" Schwable semi-slicks otherwise built up like
my Saluki with 42mm Compass BSP's...  Which one would I prefer?!?

The prospect of a more wallet friendly price and a 650B tire size in what I
consider to be the quintessential Riv is pretty intriguing.  I wonder if
it'll clear tubeless mounted 2.35" tires with full fenders?

I've been enjoying kid hauling duties on my wife's 52mm Clementine with
2.35" tires.  Not sure I see any downside to that size tire for my riding.

Tony

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[RBW] Re: Well, Here’s a Spot of Snow

[Tony DeFilippo]

I agree with Erl, that last photo should be your headbadge, or maybe a down 
tube decal... :)

Keep sharing your rides and photos please!

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[dougP]

"If one was made by all three, could anyone tell a difference?"

I seriously doubt it. 

 Rivendell always uses first quality fabricators, and they are all the same 
design with minor tweaks.  Rivendell sweats the details so any tweaks will 
be engineered by them.

dougP

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 10:30:37 PM UTC-7, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> So is there really any diff between a hypothetical Waterford, Toyo, and 
> Taiwan Atlantis (fully lugged braising construction-wise)?
>
> If one was made by all three, could anyone tell a difference?
>

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[RBW] FS Albatross Bar Heat-treated Alum

[Joe Bernard]

Aluminum is out of stock at Riv right now, so yes, $60 for a decent use one 
that's available right now is a good deal. Score!

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[RBW] FS 58cm Boscomoose

[Richard Rios]

Brand new 58cm boscomoose 130$ shipped. Bought for a project that isn't gonna 
happen. Paypal for pals or you cover fees...local cashola price is cheaper I'm 
in the 92313.

preguntas...
909 910-7424

best,
Richard

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[RBW] FS Jones Loop SG Handlebar

[lconley]

Mounted on the Nitto stem, then realized that it wasn't the version that 
had the 2.5" rise in it. Nothing else ever mounted on it. Silver 660 mm 
wide straight gauge version (narrow, slightly heavier). Basically brand 
new. Ordered the correct bar and selling this one. Asking $60 shipped CONUS 
- new bar from Jones is $79 + shipping.

Laing 
Cocoa FL

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Ryan Merrill]

I own several mountain bikes and it really is my preferred riding 
discipline, but I would be hard pressed to spend money on an mtb that is 
still using cantis or v-brakes. 

Not that I couldn't be down with a nice rivendell mountain mixte, but the 
canti posts would not be in the "pro" column when deciding to buy it. 

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:33:09 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:

> ... I mean think of this:  There was a long period of time during which 
> Rivendell was the ONLY bike company who offered road and touring- type 
> bikes with rational tire clearance and a proper fit.  The beautiful frame 
> details and business ethic were simply icing on the cake.  Nowadays, you 
> can't throw a stick without hitting some me-too brand's new  'all-road,' or 
> 'gravel' or 'monster-cross' or 'adventure touring' model.  But try to find 
> a decent, steel, mountain bike that is geared toward actual trail use and 
> geometry, but without going over the tech trend precipice.   Surly krampus 
> perhaps, but they fit like crap.  What else?  Nada.  
>
> Rant over.
>
>
>

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[RBW] FS Albatross Bar Heat-treated Alum

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

Sold in ten minutes! Haha! Must have been a good deal:)

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Lum Gim Fong]

That diagatube pic shows a bike that is not fully lugged.

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[RBW] Re: Frank Jones Sr first ride.

[RichS]

Great looking machine. Color is very pretty in this setting. And I love the 
fork bend:-)

Best,
Richard

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 10:26:18 AM UTC-4, lconley wrote:
>
> Took my freshly completed Frank Jones Sr for its first ride on Saturday on 
> the Coast to Coat bike trail in Titusville. Immediately noticed a few 
> things. My feet are too wide for the lovely old Lyotard Berthet pedals, I 
> am not in good enough shape for the 45 - 18 gearing (OK on the flat, 
> struggled to make it over the bridge over the highway), and I am too wide 
> for the B-17, even with dropped bars. I also noticed that the blue paint is 
> pearlescent - very beautiful in the sun. I ordered a set of blue Catalyst 
> pedals, and I have two B-68 saddles "in stock", so I will be switching the 
> saddle out. I was hoping to use the antique brown B-17 special titanium 
> (off of my Guv'nor), but it was not to be. I may try another ride before I 
> switch out the chain ring (I have a 44 and a 42) once I get the pedals. I 
> really love the look of the bike, I give my 1st attempt at harlequin bar 
> tape a C - very time consuming and patience testing. 
>
>
> 
> Picture at the Mercury Seven exhibit at Space View Park.
>
> Laing
> Cocoa FL
>

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[RBW] FS Albatross Bar Heat-treated Alum

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

Hey, Y'all!

I got a basically brand-new set of Albatross bars in heat-treated aluminum for 
sale. They might have a few blemishes from normal mounting, but nothing beyond 
that. 

Here are some hilarious pictures from when I mounted them on my son's balance 
bike for a photo-op: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HrksUWzl1ZCKK9hk1

I'm asking 60 plus shipping. 

Cheers,
Tim
PDX

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[RBW] Re: Joe Appaloosa: My first Rivendell

[Vincent Tamer]

Jonathan,

Awesome! It's funny how one wants another Riv right after the first! I 
bought a Clem late 2016 and have been pining for a Sam Hillborne as well! 
Maybe in 5 years for me :)

-Vincent

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 12:02:35 PM UTC-7, Jonathan wrote:
>
> Today marks 1000 miles on my Appaloosa that I bought last fall, so I 
> thought I'd make a post about it. It is my first Rivendell. I joined this 
> group right around the time I ordered it. 
>
>
> It's primarily my commuter. I ride to work year round in Milwaukee, in all 
> weather. (I put the Appaloosa away for the winter, though, and rode my old 
> beater with the studded tires.) The roads just got cleaned up enough to get 
> it back out last week. I love this bike. It made me a believer in upright 
> riding. It is such a beautiful, comfortable, useful bike. I love it more 
> than any bike I have ever owned. I love it so much that I ended up ordering 
> a new Canti-Sam frameset to be my long distance road bike, and then a 
> couple weeks ago, I also pre-ordered a Clem L for my wife. 
>
> I bought the bike complete, so it's standard Riv-build, plus racks, bags, 
> and fenders. I swapped the bars soon after I got it for the Chocomoose. 
> Most of my miles are on those bars. Right before the snow hit last fall, I 
> tried a set of Bullmoose bars and really liked them, but didn't get many 
> miles in with them. Then, I picked up a set of "bad angle" Boscomoose bars 
> over the winter, and have been riding those for the past week. I think I 
> like them better than the Chocos, but not sure if these or the Bullmoose 
> will win out in the end... 
>
> I'm excited to put a lot more miles on it this year.
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[George Rosselle]

As the owner of a first generation Toyo built Atlantis I am torn. I know the 
original was made to be a less expensive All Rounder, so the new plan sticks to 
the original brief. But just as the All Rounder copy became the Atlantis, maybe 
the new version should have a different name.

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[RBW] Re: Delete post when something is sold

[Cyclofiend Jim]

We haven't really had a strong policy.   Don't really think we need one.  I 
figure that if the OP of a For Sale item keeps getting pestered by private 
messages, it's up to them to remove or update the listing as they see fit.

- Jim (admin-ing on a rainy Tuesday...)


On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:36:34 PM UTC-7, tc wrote:
>
> Hey all,
> I'm thinking it might be a good idea for authors of "For Sale" posts to 
> delete their posts once an item is sold, rather than creating another post 
> just to say "Sold".
>
> Deleting the post would keep people from thinking something might still be 
> available, only to scroll to the bottom to find out it's not.  Also reduces 
> the number of posts.
>
> Some might not know how to delete their post.  Easy ... just click on the 
> down arrow at the right-top of the post (More Message Options) and click 
> Delete.
>
>
> 
>
> Tom
>

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[RBW] Re: FS - Waterford AHH 59cm

[Dan Bracey]

Willing to sell Frame/Fork/Headset for $1500 shipped.  

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:13:53 AM UTC-4, Dan Bracey wrote:
>
> Full image gallery here: https://imgur.com/a/axZDK
>
> I'm going to regret this, but for sale is a Waterford built 2006 A. Homer 
> Hilsen that I have owned it since 2010. When I bought the bike, I thought 
> I'd own it for the rest of my life, but it turns out that it just doesn't 
> fit the type of riding I'm doing as well as I thought it would. It is one 
> of the more beautiful frames I've ever put my eyes on and when I purchased 
> it I painstakingly cleaned the frame and carefully touched up all the chips 
> with matching enamel paint (first sign that I'm not a true "Riv guy"). 
>
> The paint is darker blue than the current Homer and anyone that is paying 
> attention knows that the AHH has gone through a lot of hues of blue over 
> the years. I was also missing the brifter index shifting from my sportier 
> road bike, so Homer's bar end shifters got swapped for a full Shimano 
> Ultegra 6500 triple groupset (second sign that I'm not a true Riv believer) 
> which I believe to be the last classically beautiful group that Shimano 
> produced. I don't need to go into how great these frames are and how well 
> they handle, or how beautiful they are, but I will say that the size 59 
> frame was on the verge of being too big for my 5'11" frame, but it was 
> still comfortable for a couple of 100 mile plus rides that I did on it. The 
> larger than normal sizing and the low seat post was one Grantism that I do 
> believe in for this bike which made it extremely comfortable for long rides.
>
> Further details on the build are a full Nitto cockpit & seatpost including 
> 46cm Noodle handlebars wrapped with brooks honey leather tape that could 
> use some moisturizing but still has plenty of life. A set of classic 
> Rivendell wheels: Rich-built, Phil-hubbed (NLA), Synergy Velocity rimmed, 
> 36 spoke wheels with a Shimano 12/27 9 speed cassette. Jagwire silver 
> cables throughout and Tektro R556 Sidepull brakes. 
>
> The bike recently had a service from the top notch local shop including a 
> replacement of the shift cables.
>
> Seeing as the groupset is not very "rivish", I'm happy to sell the bike 
> minus the groupset, but I would prefer to sell complete. I will probably 
> shed a few tears as I tape up the box on this one, but this is a bike that 
> deserves to be ridden hard and often and I'm not doing that. 
>
> Complete $2700 
> Less Shimano groupset, but including everything else, wheels, cockpit, 
> etc. $2300
>
> Will consider frame only, but prefer to sell complete
>
> Prices do not including shipping or fees.  Located in Charlottesville, VA 
> and happy to deal locally.  
>
> Contact me by email - dlbra...@gmail.com
>
> Full image gallery here: https://imgur.com/a/axZDK
>

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Dave S]

Assuming this is the bike, you can see the cable guides in the photo 
Jonathan referenced above.




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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Tim Butterfield]

The mule aberration was considered a threat to humanity in that it could
delay/extend the dark age/period after the collapse of the empire by
tracking down and eliminating the influence of the second foundation, which
was helping the first foundation from the shadows.  The mule was therefore
neutralized by the robot, Olivaw.  I don't recall there being a question of
whether it should or not.  The part I referred to was the need for a
decision on whether the planet Gaia should be extended to be Galaxia or if
the galaxy should be left separate.  Olivaw could not make that decision
himself and needed a human to decide the 'rightness' for him.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:12 AM, George Schick  wrote:

> Except when it failed.  IIRC, an aberration known as "the mule" appeared
> along the way in the trilogy and they (the robot (R.Daneel Olivaw) working
> through the humans (2nd Foundation) had to find a work-around to keep the
> future from slipping into a dark age.
>
> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 12:21:27 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> There was some of this exact thinking in some of Azimov's Foundation
>> series.  I don't recall if it was an Azimov book or another added to the
>> series, though I suspect the later.  On a galactic level, the robots were
>> unable to determine what was best for humanity.  So, they found a human who
>> always made the 'right' decisions and put that person in charge of
>> determining the right decision to make.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:
>>
>>> Asimov’s laws are pretty, and a logical foundation from which to start,
>>> but are far from being the answer they appear. Take the first “law” of
>>> medicine, for example. Modern doctors deleted the notion of “first, do no
>>> harm” from the modern Hippocratic Oath (which isn’t required), and added
>>> some stunning language which supports euthanasia for patients who are
>>> burdens on family/society) — might not robots do the same? Define “harm”?
>>> Are humans smart enough to know “harm” when they see it? Or only robots?
>>> http://mindyourheadcoop.org/the-hippocratic-oath-that-isnt
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Cockpit Items - For Sale

[Mat Grewe]

Bar end shifter pods still available.  As is the quill stem.

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:04:34 PM UTC-5, Mat Grewe wrote:
>
> For sale are some extra cockpit items that didn't end up working for me. 
>  All the prices include shipping CONUS.  If you want a couple items, let me 
> know and I can adjust shipping accordingly.  Thanks for looking!
>
>
>- Albatross Steel - Lightly used - $45
>- Compass Randonneur 42cm wide and 25.4mm clamp - Lightly used - $75
>- Silver bar end shifter PODS ONLY - Lightly used - $25
>- Riser quill stem from 80's Bianchi MTB bike for 25.4mm clamp and 
>standard 1" quill - Has cosmetic scratches, but functions perfectly - $15
>
>
> Mat Grewe
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Joe Bernard]

The Clem was hatched by the younger folks at Riv. It was originally going to be 
a better-than-a-beater beater with flat paint that could be easily touched up 
with a rattle can. Of course Grant couldn't bring himself to sell an ugly 
bicycle, but the design and price ethos was met. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[iamkeith]

... I mean think of this:  There was a long period of time during which 
Rivendell was the ONLY bike company who offered road and touring- type 
bikes with rational tire clearance and a proper fit.  The beautiful frame 
details and business ethic were simply icing on the cake.  Nowadays, you 
can't throw a stick without hitting some me-too brand's new  'all-road,' or 
'gravel' or 'monster-cross' or 'adventure touring' model.  But try to find 
a decent, steel, mountain bike that is geared toward actual trail use and 
geometry, but without going over the tech trend precipice.   Surly krampus 
perhaps, but they fit like crap.  What else?  Nada.  

Rant over.


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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Deacon Patrick]

Oh, I know Asimov saw at least some of the flaws in the laws. I bringing them 
up so would could too. Grin. In a fallen world, the answers can’t come from 
within the fallen world. The robot’s discovered their limits and had humility 
(whether they found the correct answer is another discussion). Asimov created 
multiple layers of circles of irony. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[George Schick]

Except when it failed.  IIRC, an aberration known as "the mule" appeared 
along the way in the trilogy and they (the robot (R.Daneel Olivaw) working 
through the humans (2nd Foundation) had to find a work-around to keep the 
future from slipping into a dark age.

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 12:21:27 PM UTC-5, Tim Butterfield wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> There was some of this exact thinking in some of Azimov's Foundation 
> series.  I don't recall if it was an Azimov book or another added to the 
> series, though I suspect the later.  On a galactic level, the robots were 
> unable to determine what was best for humanity.  So, they found a human who 
> always made the 'right' decisions and put that person in charge of 
> determining the right decision to make.
>
> Tim
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Deacon Patrick  > wrote:
>
>> Asimov’s laws are pretty, and a logical foundation from which to start, 
>> but are far from being the answer they appear. Take the first “law” of 
>> medicine, for example. Modern doctors deleted the notion of “first, do no 
>> harm” from the modern Hippocratic Oath (which isn’t required), and added 
>> some stunning language which supports euthanasia for patients who are 
>> burdens on family/society) — might not robots do the same? Define “harm”? 
>> Are humans smart enough to know “harm” when they see it? Or only robots?
>> http://mindyourheadcoop.org/the-hippocratic-oath-that-isnt
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[iamkeith]

>
>
> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:18:42 AM UTC-6, Tony DeFilippo wrote:
>>
>>   Maybe the next Rosco/Roadini project should be a Rosco-Hunq.
>>
>>
>>  Also, I kind of think that that's exactly what the Clem Smith Jr. 
project was:  Just as the Rosco Bubbes' impetus grew out of a stockpile of 
surpluss forks, the Clems started out as a way to use up some lugs from an 
abandoned project, on a mountain-ish fat tire bike, with the expectation 
that it would be a short-lived or single-run project. 

Speaking of unsolicited critiquing of business decisions, what I think is 
crazy is the fact that people (including Riv) are "surprised" by the 
success of such a bike.  I think it has less to do with the price than the 
functionality.  If it were me making decisions, THAT's the bike I'd pick to 
do what they're doing with the Atlantis:  Offer the hunquapillar as a 
fully-lugged, Taiwan-built, slightly-more-expensive Clem.

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[RBW] Re: FS: Paul Racer Brakeset, Black, $250

[Gabriel Bruguier]

No thank you, I am not interested in trades for these brakes.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:18:42 AM UTC-6, Tony DeFilippo wrote:
>
> With a Tiawan-built Atlantis 'a little bit more' than an Appaloosa is 
> there a compelling reason to hold on to the Appaloosa in Riv's line up? 
> ...  That leaves the AHH, Roadeo, Hunq and MUSA Atlantis frames in the 
> realm of the made to order timeline of course.  Maybe the next 
> Rosco/Roadini project should be a Rosco-Hunq.
>
> Armchair bike business critique isn't as much fun as armchair bike 
> design/bike component critique...  but I am happy to hear the Atlantis will 
> be available again soon.  
>
>
>
Ha!  I sure hope these discussions aren't taken as critique in the purest 
sense of "criticism."  We all just love daydreaming about the possibilities 
and speculating  about the details, out of our shared love for Rivendell, 
right?  That's why the forum exists in the first place.

Here is an interesting comment from Grant to Jim, from 2008 
, as the more-affordable-model 
Bleriot  program was being wound down.   You can see that as far back as 
then, he had envisioned a lineup scenario in which they would continue to 
offer the marque, boutique-builder models* as well as* an affordable 
Taiwan-built version of each.  With the addition of the Roadini, it seems 
like they had FINALLY acheived that goal!  No sooner done, and they now 
have to recalibrate.  Not wishing to pick on Waterford, but it must be 
incredibly frustrating that they can't find a builder who could seize the 
opportunity to make this work domestically at an in-the-middle price point.


*The QBP partnership was pleasant, I have only the best things to say about 
QBP, but it was about a dozen and a half dealers that sealed the Bleriot's 
fate.*

*We could, I suppose, continue to get them ourselves. But the original deal 
was created with the help of QBP's trading company, and it wouldn't be fair 
for us to tie up its time with business that no longer involves QBP. So 
rather than put them in the position of "handing off" the Bleriot deal to a 
competitor trading company--after they'd worked so hard on the details--I'm 
just going to kill the fine bike and start fresh with another trading 
company and a few more bikes, which--if all goes well which it hardly ever 
does--will be ready in about January, March, May, and July of 2009.*

*The concepts are: Cheap Quickbeam, cheap A. Homer/Saluki, cheap Atlantis, 
and cheap Mixte. The plan is four sizes each: 48-52-56-60, all with 6-deg 
upsloping top tubes (like Bombadil), so each size will fit a wider rage of 
leglengths/riders.*

*I say "cheap," but the quality will be the same as the Bleriot. Made in 
Taiwan. Our lugs, crowns, bb shells, tube pick, 'ame & 'phics, all that. 
Probably they'll be one-color (no cream head tube), and m-m-may retail for 
$700 or a hair less (not $699.99!).*

*Our minimums per bike are 150. So, four sizes is about 37 each, which will 
give us good depth and stock for a while.*

But, yea Tony's right - If the Atlantis now becomes one of the "budget 
models" AND has longer stays similar to the Appaloosa, AND a sloped top 
tube and canti brakes like the Sam, AND stouter tubing and better tire 
clearance like a Clem, there are all sorts of questions about how those 
other models stay relevant.  I'm guessing there will continue to be some 
significant distinctions.   For me, even different wheel sizes or 
alternating fit / size increments might be enough.

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Belopsky]

yeah this is pretty standard. drilled and tapped bb hole for the plastic 
guide.

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:45:50 AM UTC-4, iamkeith wrote:
>
> That's my understanding too, which is why it's such a curious decision. 
>  Made sense for the limited-run FJS, but presumably this will remain a 
> permanent model.  6 degree top tube indicates fewer configurations / sizes 
> likely.  
>
> Another thing about the FJS is that it didn't require cable routing 
> guides.  Does the Atlantis get a screw-on platic jobber like the Clem???
>

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,

There was some of this exact thinking in some of Azimov's Foundation
series.  I don't recall if it was an Azimov book or another added to the
series, though I suspect the later.  On a galactic level, the robots were
unable to determine what was best for humanity.  So, they found a human who
always made the 'right' decisions and put that person in charge of
determining the right decision to make.

Tim

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Asimov’s laws are pretty, and a logical foundation from which to start,
> but are far from being the answer they appear. Take the first “law” of
> medicine, for example. Modern doctors deleted the notion of “first, do no
> harm” from the modern Hippocratic Oath (which isn’t required), and added
> some stunning language which supports euthanasia for patients who are
> burdens on family/society) — might not robots do the same? Define “harm”?
> Are humans smart enough to know “harm” when they see it? Or only robots?
> http://mindyourheadcoop.org/the-hippocratic-oath-that-isnt
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Deacon Patrick]

Asimov’s laws are pretty, and a logical foundation from which to start, but are 
far from being the answer they appear. Take the first “law” of medicine, for 
example. Modern doctors deleted the notion of “first, do no harm” from the 
modern Hippocratic Oath (which isn’t required), and added some stunning 
language which supports euthanasia for patients who are burdens on 
family/society) — might not robots do the same? Define “harm”? Are humans smart 
enough to know “harm” when they see it? Or only robots?
http://mindyourheadcoop.org/the-hippocratic-oath-that-isnt

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Jim Bronson]

Good point Tim.  If I knew an automated car was programmed to stop for a
cyclist regardless of the overall traffic situation, it would be more
tempting to seize the initiative to cross the intersection before it did.
Not that I would, but anyway.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Tim Butterfield 
wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> There it is. https://twitter.com/FortuneMagazine/status/97609980166952140
>> 9?s=19
>
>
> Hmmm.  It may not be in this case, but I have a sad premonition that
> people playing with/around self-driving cars may become an extreme sport.
> What can someone do and get away with without getting hurt?  Maybe a
> version of parkour over Uber or mountain biking over them.
>
> Tim
>
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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Jim Bronson]

It was stated in the media that neither the car or the human nanny
attempted to slow or stop the vehicle.  Not sure who the source of that
info.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:05 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> We don't know that the driving attendant or the computer failed. I have
> questions concerning how well the pedestrian stepping into the street
> outside a crosswalk late at night judged the distance of the oncoming
> vehicle.
>
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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Bill Eberle in Columbus, Ohio]

I expect that Arizona's and Tuscon's laws would only allow local police to cite 
the human operator with a traffic violation. If Uber has any liability in this 
instance, it must be established via a civil process. Police and prosecutors 
don't make that call. This is an area of law that will come in to focus as more 
pedestrians and cyclists become casualties of the march of technology.

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Tim Butterfield]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> There it is. https://twitter.com/FortuneMagazine/status/
> 976099801669521409?s=19


Hmmm.  It may not be in this case, but I have a sad premonition that people
playing with/around self-driving cars may become an extreme sport.  What
can someone do and get away with without getting hurt?  Maybe a version of
parkour over Uber or mountain biking over them.

Tim

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[Bin Chen]

I don’t have the Demi but have the standard SOMA Porteur. Mounts on my Atlantis 
fine through the eyelets and also has option mid-fork eyelets that I use as 
well for extra stability.

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[Joe Bernard]

Ah, it doesn't need a braze-on. Thanks! 

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Joe Bernard]

There it is. https://twitter.com/FortuneMagazine/status/976099801669521409?s=19

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Tom Wyland]

Tony, 

Yeah, armchair product management is fun!  From a marketing standpoint, I 
think the message of "last chance for 18 months" might spur more sales then 
"last chance until sometime next year" message. It depends if the goal is 
to broaden audience (new customers) or get existing customers to "ladder 
up" to the next level of product. They clearly could use some 
grouping/filtering of frames on the website so perhaps "in stock," 
"pre-order," and "custom order" could be one of them (in addition to price 
bands). 

Tom

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 10:18:42 AM UTC-4, Tony DeFilippo wrote:
>
> With a Tiawan-built Atlantis 'a little bit more' than an Appaloosa is 
> there a compelling reason to hold on to the Appaloosa in Riv's line up?  If 
> they are trying to normalize their inventory for their own cash flow and to 
> always have frames on hand for interested buyers I could see them go 
> forward with a pattern of orders like;
>
> -Clem H's and L's - every order
> -Rosco or Roadini project - one at a time, maybe skipping orders
> -Cheviots, Sams, Atlantis - alternate orders
>
> Seems like there are 2 or 3 orders of frames per year from Taiwan and they 
> are always a large cash outlay.  But if they settled into a predictable 
> pattern at least for the Chev-Sam-Atlantis core Tiawan frames a customer 
> could always either purchase off the shelf or sign up for the next 
> pre-order and have a known wait.  I also wonder if bringing the Atlantis 
> back means the Sam could go back to sidepull/centerpull brake to skew more 
> road-ish (personally I see no downside to canti's).
>
> That leaves the AHH, Roadeo, Hunq and MUSA Atlantis frames in the realm of 
> the made to order timeline of course.  Maybe the next Rosco/Roadini project 
> should be a Rosco-Hunq.
>
> Armchair bike business critique isn't as much fun as armchair bike 
> design/bike component critique...  but I am happy to hear the Atlantis will 
> be available again soon.  
>
> Tony
>
>

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Tim Butterfield]

Curtis,

There is also the Zeroth law, which takes precedence over the other three.

0.  A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come
to harm.

Of course, these are built into the positronic brain, which does not yet
exist.

Tim

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 6:05 AM, Curtis McKenzie  wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> Just a quick note about the "self-driving" cars.
>
> Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"
>
>
>1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a
>human being to come to harm.
>
>2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such
>orders would conflict with the First Law.
>
>3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection
>does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
>
>
> Oh my!
>
> Curtis "who thinks there is more to this story"
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Jim Bronson 
> wrote:
>
>> I would trust Google with this technology more than Uber.  Uber has shown
>> quite frequently that they push the envelope on what is legal and what is
>> moral.  Google's stated philosophy is "first, do no harm".  Pretty big
>> difference there.
>>
>> I don't know if perception is reality, but it seems to me that Google has
>> put the most work and the most time into the field.  My built in bias would
>> be that I live in Austin and have many relatives in the Bay Area, which I
>> visit frequently.  These are both places where Google has tested their
>> autonomous driving cars, so I have personally seen many more of them.  I
>> have encountered the Google cars while riding my bike in Austin, in fact.
>>
>> Overall I am in favor of self driving cars, because human drivers are
>> just so bad.  My round-trip daily commute is from 1:15-2:00 so I get a full
>> dose of horrendous human drivers every day.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Jim M.  wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:58:21 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 Since computer driven cars are basically still in the laboratory

>>>
>>> I'm not going to argue that autonomous cars are ready for prime time,
>>> but they're still in the lab only if you consider the streets of Mountain
>>> View, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the road around Lake Tahoe the lab.
>>> Google cars alone have driven 2 million miles in those areas and others. To
>>> date, most, if not all, of the accidents they have been in were caused by
>>> human drivers of other cars.
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Jim M.]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 5:34:28 AM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Your daily car accident fatality figure is wildly incorrect. It would put 
> the yearly total at  over 1.2 million fatalities, when the actual figure is 
> 40,000. Which of course is bad enough.
>
> Sorry, I cited world figures, not just US.
 

> Autonomous cars don't look at phones because that would be redundant.
>
> That was a joke, but I'm too old to use smiley faces.

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[RBW] Re: Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[masmojo]

Entirely too late to make any real difference,  but a couple ideas I had while 
reading this thread. First, a cam shape would help with lever throw issues. 
(Even though it would complicate the design/engineering exponentially & 
probably make it not cost effective)
Second, maybe a segmented lever that is long enough for down tube use, but 
easily hacked off for thumby use!? Personally,  I'm fine with the shorter lever 
and I'll probably buy some as soon as they are available to replace my Sun Race 
clickers.

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Re: [RBW] What type of bike would make you buy another riv

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

I need to show this thread to my wife...she just doesn't understand why any 
person would need or want multiple bikes. But then she doesn't have any 
hobbies so how would she understand.
I have two Sams( a single and double top tube ) and a Cheviot.
If I was to get another Riv it would be a custom Bombadil.

>

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[RBW] Re: Cockpit Items - For Sale

[Mat Grewe]

Sale pending on all items except quill stem.

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:04:34 PM UTC-5, Mat Grewe wrote:
>
> For sale are some extra cockpit items that didn't end up working for me. 
>  All the prices include shipping CONUS.  If you want a couple items, let me 
> know and I can adjust shipping accordingly.  Thanks for looking!
>
>
>- Albatross Steel - Lightly used - $45
>- Compass Randonneur 42cm wide and 25.4mm clamp - Lightly used - $75
>- Silver bar end shifter PODS ONLY - Lightly used - $25
>- Riser quill stem from 80's Bianchi MTB bike for 25.4mm clamp and 
>standard 1" quill - Has cosmetic scratches, but functions perfectly - $15
>
>
> Mat Grewe
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What type of bike would make you buy another riv

[masmojo]

I am certainly not in favor of change for the sake of it, but there comes a 
point where you simply have to face the weather, 1 1/8" steer tubes, disc 
brakes & index shifting are not newfangled fads, they are pretty much the 
standard now & have been for some time. Yeah, you can still get quill stems, 
but the days when I had a box of quill stems to cull from is more or less gone. 
 Disc brakes? Well, I'm a cantilever die hard, I love the elegance and 
simplicity, but typically these days I buy bikes with disc brakes, even cheap 
ones work well and once you get used to them & learn a few tricks, disc brakes 
are easy to adjust.
Friction shifting? I am OK with it generally and I HATE Push-push, trigger 
shifters, but an indexing thumb shifter? Why not? Not much more annoying 
offroad, then needing to make a quick shift & NOT hitting it. Even around town, 
missing a shift can be annoying, (& sometimes dangerous).
I love my Rivendells & will continue to buy them, but I embrace them in spite 
of these characteristics not because I find them advantageous or desirable. 
Indeed a large portion of the people posting here are wishing for things that 
are distinctly un-Rivendellian.
Should Rivendell change, get with the times? Would it make them less "them"? I 
don't know, but maybe if the opportunity presents itself, slowly working some 
of these elements in,  wouldn't hurt anything.

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

Joe,
Here's your light mount at the Riv store.

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/lights/products/nitto-screw-mount-lamp-holder-6-right
Jon

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:13:57 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:

> Brad: Thanks for the confirmation of where SOMA mounts the braze-ons, 
> that's very helpful. Unfortunately I'm just realizing there's no mounts on 
> the rack for my dynohub light. Phooey!

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[RBW] Cockpit Items - For Sale

[Kainalu V.]

Mat answered, they're 55cm. I'm holding out for a 56, or maybe this new bar on 
the horizon 
-Kai 
BK NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[masmojo]

Well, a recent post floated the question " what would it take to get you to buy 
another Riv" (or something like that) and, well, this might be IT! 
I kinda hope they do a new color!? 

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Steve Palincsar]

Basically, there is a whole lot we do not know, and we really would do 
better waiting for the results of the on-going crash investigation 
rather than speculating as we have done.



On 03/20/2018 10:05 AM, Joe Bernard wrote:

We don't know that the driving attendant or the computer failed. I have 
questions concerning how well the pedestrian stepping into the street outside a 
crosswalk late at night judged the distance of the oncoming vehicle.



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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Tony DeFilippo]

With a Tiawan-built Atlantis 'a little bit more' than an Appaloosa is there
a compelling reason to hold on to the Appaloosa in Riv's line up?  If they
are trying to normalize their inventory for their own cash flow and to
always have frames on hand for interested buyers I could see them go
forward with a pattern of orders like;

-Clem H's and L's - every order
-Rosco or Roadini project - one at a time, maybe skipping orders
-Cheviots, Sams, Atlantis - alternate orders

Seems like there are 2 or 3 orders of frames per year from Taiwan and they
are always a large cash outlay.  But if they settled into a predictable
pattern at least for the Chev-Sam-Atlantis core Tiawan frames a customer
could always either purchase off the shelf or sign up for the next
pre-order and have a known wait.  I also wonder if bringing the Atlantis
back means the Sam could go back to sidepull/centerpull brake to skew more
road-ish (personally I see no downside to canti's).

That leaves the AHH, Roadeo, Hunq and MUSA Atlantis frames in the realm of
the made to order timeline of course.  Maybe the next Rosco/Roadini project
should be a Rosco-Hunq.

Armchair bike business critique isn't as much fun as armchair bike
design/bike component critique...  but I am happy to hear the Atlantis will
be available again soon.

Tony

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[Joe Bernard]

Brad: Thanks for the confirmation of where SOMA mounts the braze-ons, that's 
very helpful. Unfortunately I'm just realizing there's no mounts on the rack 
for my dynohub light. Phooey!

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Joe Bernard]

We don't know that the driving attendant or the computer failed. I have 
questions concerning how well the pedestrian stepping into the street outside a 
crosswalk late at night judged the distance of the oncoming vehicle. 

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Steve Palincsar]

Are autonomous cars built to obey Asimov's Three Laws?  I doubt it very 
much.



On 03/20/2018 09:05 AM, Curtis McKenzie wrote:

Hello Everyone,

Just a quick note about the "self-driving" cars.


  Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"

 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a
human being to come to harm.
 2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where
such orders would conflict with the First Law.
 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection
does not conflict with the First or Second Law.


Oh my!

Curtis "who thinks there is more to this story"


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Re: [RBW] Re: What type of bike would make you buy another riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/20/2018 09:04 AM, 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:


Disc brakes, because I see rim brake rims and hubs being unavailable 
very soon


I'm sure this is a gross exaggeration, and squarely falls under the term 
FUD  - /Fear, 
Uncertainty and Doubt/.  How long has it been since a new bicycle was 
available with 27 x 1 1/4" wheels?  35 years? More?  Certainly decades.  
And yet, you can still buy rims and tires in that size.  How long since 
120mm freewheel hubs were standard on bicycles?  Certainly longer than 
that.  And yet, I'm confident if I wanted such a thing I could source 
hubs like that in a matter of minutes.


As it says in the Wikipedia article I linked to, "FUD is generally a 
strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious 
or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear 
."  If you want to make 
the case for disc brakes, I wish you'd try to do it on the merits -- 
for, although I personally have no use for them in my fleet I do agree 
they have some merits (as well as some drawbacks that for me far 
outweigh any potential benefits) -- rather than appealing to fear.


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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: What happened to bullmoose bars?

[Max S]

Welded or braised?.. (If the latter, I am getting in line :-) 

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[ascpgh]

The driving attendant had the accident. Violated the trust of oversight 
which was the promise predicating this experiment's permission to use 
public roads as its laboratory. 

I'm (was) coming to grips with AI Ubers and have felt safer around them 
than transit busses whose operators continue to have either passive 
aggressive driving behavior or measurable incompetence that risks other 
legal occupants of the roadway. They don't learn and are also on extended 
experimentation. I have a shell jacket with a tear in the left arm from the 
side of a bus that was well on the way to successfully curbing me in broad 
daylight. 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 6:58:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 03/19/2018 06:39 PM, Eric Norris wrote: 
> > By comparison, 5,376 pedestrians were killed by people-drive cars in 
> > 2015, which is one pedestrian killed every 1.6 hours. 
> > 
> > It’s not helpful to focus a single accident—this is a “man bites dog” 
> > story that triggers all sorts of worries about technology gone wrong. 
> > The facts, however, might indicate that, mile for mile, 
> > computer-driven cars are safer than people-driven. More research and 
> > work is needed, but overall I for one am hopeful for a future in which 
> > safer cars drive themselves. 
> > 
>
> Since computer driven cars are basically still in the laboratory I think 
> it's premature to say they "are safer".  They "aren't" anything at all 
> yet, just a lab experiment. 
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[iamkeith]

Maybe "tunnels" like Ritchey and Potts used?

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[RBW] "RBW Blue"

[jandrews_nyc]

Greetings, 
Has anyone found a suitable match for the home touch up types amongst us 
with a frame in this color?
JS

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Curtis McKenzie]

Hello Everyone,

Just a quick note about the "self-driving" cars.

Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics"


   1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a
   human being to come to harm.

   2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such
   orders would conflict with the First Law.

   3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection
   does not conflict with the First or Second Law.


Oh my!

Curtis "who thinks there is more to this story"

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Jim Bronson  wrote:

> I would trust Google with this technology more than Uber.  Uber has shown
> quite frequently that they push the envelope on what is legal and what is
> moral.  Google's stated philosophy is "first, do no harm".  Pretty big
> difference there.
>
> I don't know if perception is reality, but it seems to me that Google has
> put the most work and the most time into the field.  My built in bias would
> be that I live in Austin and have many relatives in the Bay Area, which I
> visit frequently.  These are both places where Google has tested their
> autonomous driving cars, so I have personally seen many more of them.  I
> have encountered the Google cars while riding my bike in Austin, in fact.
>
> Overall I am in favor of self driving cars, because human drivers are just
> so bad.  My round-trip daily commute is from 1:15-2:00 so I get a full dose
> of horrendous human drivers every day.
>
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Jim M.  wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:58:21 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>> Since computer driven cars are basically still in the laboratory
>>>
>>
>> I'm not going to argue that autonomous cars are ready for prime time, but
>> they're still in the lab only if you consider the streets of Mountain View,
>> the Golden Gate Bridge, and the road around Lake Tahoe the lab. Google cars
>> alone have driven 2 million miles in those areas and others. To date, most,
>> if not all, of the accidents they have been in were caused by human drivers
>> of other cars.
>>
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[RBW] Re: What type of bike would make you buy another riv

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

> A Disc braked, 2.5" tire clearance, moderate bottom bracket height, fully 
> lugged, short top tube and with bikepacking fork mounts, for better 
> singletrack capability than my Atlantis. I have a hunch though, that ANY 
> bike compared to my Atlantis would be a disappointment.  My Atlantis is 
> perfect except for the ground clearance when I am on trails.  


Disc brakes, because I see rim brake rims and hubs being unavailable very 
soon and disc braking is better in the wet. Higher bottom bracket for less 
pedal strikes and chainring gashes on singletrack. Short top tube, because 
I love my Atlantis geometry so much and I have a rather bum back. And 
last but not least, a fork with three bolts for the bikepacking cages that 
are available. 

Funny, as I write this, I think "I am going to end up with a Crust, 
because I don't see a disc braked bikepacker ever coming from Rivendell". 
Off road touring is my 'go to' now, due to phones and distracted drivers. 
Too many close calls. I'd like a Riv, but Crust seems like they make a 
great bike. I am not into palm trees and bearded Mermaids, and would rather 
dwell in hobbits, elves and other middle earth lore. 

Clayton #DirtDanceDesigns 

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[RBW] Re: What happened to bullmoose bars?

[a spens]

Mike, Check back today with Will or Corey.  I just returned what I believe 
was the last pair when my build-plans changed and I no longer needed them. 
 They are unused.
Good luck.
Al

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 9:34:39 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The last original Bullmoose - the flattish mountain bikey one - sold on 
> the Last Chance Specials page recently. I don't think they were a big 
> seller in Riv World, which tends towards the pullback types. 

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Jim Bronson]

I would trust Google with this technology more than Uber.  Uber has shown
quite frequently that they push the envelope on what is legal and what is
moral.  Google's stated philosophy is "first, do no harm".  Pretty big
difference there.

I don't know if perception is reality, but it seems to me that Google has
put the most work and the most time into the field.  My built in bias would
be that I live in Austin and have many relatives in the Bay Area, which I
visit frequently.  These are both places where Google has tested their
autonomous driving cars, so I have personally seen many more of them.  I
have encountered the Google cars while riding my bike in Austin, in fact.

Overall I am in favor of self driving cars, because human drivers are just
so bad.  My round-trip daily commute is from 1:15-2:00 so I get a full dose
of horrendous human drivers every day.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:58 PM, Jim M.  wrote:

> On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:58:21 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> Since computer driven cars are basically still in the laboratory
>>
>
> I'm not going to argue that autonomous cars are ready for prime time, but
> they're still in the lab only if you consider the streets of Mountain View,
> the Golden Gate Bridge, and the road around Lake Tahoe the lab. Google cars
> alone have driven 2 million miles in those areas and others. To date, most,
> if not all, of the accidents they have been in were caused by human drivers
> of other cars.
>
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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[iamkeith]

That's my understanding too, which is why it's such a curious decision.  Made 
sense for the limited-run FJS, but presumably this will remain a permanent 
model.  6 degree top tube indicates fewer configurations / sizes likely.  

Another thing about the FJS is that it didn't require cable routing guides.  
Does the Atlantis get a screw-on platic jobber like the Clem???

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[RBW] Re: First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Your daily car accident fatality figure is wildly incorrect. It would put 
the yearly total at  over 1.2 million fatalities, when the actual figure is 
40,000. Which of course is bad enough.

Autonomous cars don't look at phones because that would be redundant.

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 6:30:47 PM UTC-4, Jim M. wrote: On average, 
there are 3,300 car accident fatalities each day in the US. All the 
research I've seen so far says autonomous cars are better than humans. At 
least, they don't look at their phones while driving.

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[RBW] Re: SOMA Demi Porteur

[Brad]

I haven't tried the Demi Porteur rack and a quick google image search 
doesn't show any images of it in the wild. But the web store text describes 
it as a "rack that installs on your fork's mini rack mounts." Soma uses the 
Riv standard for their rack mounts. I could move the Nitto 32F back and 
forth from my Quickbeam to my Grand Randonneur, so they're at least aware 
of where to put the braze-ons.

Brad
Queens

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 3:38:17 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Has anyone used this on a Riv? I'm thinking about putting one on my 
> Cheviot for light loads in my new Clembasack (bungee net, no basket), but I 
> don't know if it's sized for Riv-type mid-fork eyelets or the old standard 
> for pannier racks. 
>
> http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/demi-porteur-rack
>

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Belopsky]

I don't think it's cheaper than lugged but if allows more variance in the 
sta/hta/bb angles than lugged

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Re: [RBW] First pedestrian killed by autonomous car

[Larry Charlton]

Uber has been picking people up at the Pittsburgh airport using autonomous 
vehicles for over a year.  They've managed the sometimes bumper-to-bumper, 
sometimes 70mph Parkway West to the city with no incidents and have 
delivered folks to the city accident-free.  Try driving in a city laid out 
in triangles rather than blocks; talk abut chaos!  The technology is still 
in its infancy but certainly has left the sandbox. 


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[RBW] SOMA Demi Porteur

[Joe Bernard]

Has anyone used this on a Riv? I'm thinking about putting one on my Cheviot for 
light loads in my new Clembasack (bungee net, no basket), but I don't know if 
it's sized for Riv-type mid-fork eyelets or the old standard for pannier racks. 

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/demi-porteur-rack

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[RBW] Re: Lower price Atlantis!

[Joe Bernard]

You can generally deduce a Japan/USA Riv from Taiwan by the fancier lugs, but 
no, there's no way I would know the difference based on construction, weight or 
ride. It's apparent that the crew in Taiwan are fantastic builders, and the 
paint is great, too. 

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