Re: [RBW] Re: Path Less Pedaled will review a Riv!

[velomann]

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/frame-sam-hillborne-2020

On this page there's a photo of a hand holding a tube painted the "Dark 
Gold" color. It's pretty orange-y looking ;-)

Mike M


On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 7:46:16 PM UTC-7, Joel wrote:
>
> Riv is not listing them other than saying blue and dark gold.  Have you 
> seen a sample of the dark gold? I was hoping for Orange again.  Is the 
> price to remain the same?  Thanks
> Joel
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 9:07 PM velomann > 
> wrote:
>
>> Russ's videos, and his enthusiasm for the Sam (he did decide to buy it) 
>> pushed me over the edge and I put my deposit down 2 weeks ago with Golden 
>> pliers for a 51cm Sam H in the Dark Gold. I've been a Riv fanboy and 
>> occasional presence on this list for years, but this will actually be my 
>> own first Rivendell. I've owned (and sold) several Bridgestones, I had (and 
>> wrecked) an Ocean Air Cycles Rambler. I just recently took delivery of a 
>> custom Bantam disc brake sport tourer to replace the Rambler. And in the 
>> Portland bike community I'm involved with it's only a slight exageration 
>> when I say All My Friends Have Rivendells. Like Russ I've given the 
>> Rivendell treatment to several of my bikes, but it's time to go all in for 
>> the real deal. Part of my thinking is also a bit of a pendulum swing back 
>> to rim brakes, encouraged by Russ's review, as well as some comments Ron 
>> (Ultraromance) made about his Atlantis with Canti brakes on the GDMBR when 
>> Russ interviewed him a few months ago. 
>> Another bonus is that adding the Sam will actually reduce my stable. Part 
>> of my decision was "what bikes will this replace?" So I sold the 89 MB-2 
>> drop-bar conversion, the BS Mile 112 is currently listed, and the Trek 750 
>> is about to go as soon as I swap out the Albatross bars (going on the Sam). 
>> Also the Trek 930 650b conversion - back to 26" and on to Craigslist (the 
>> wheels were from the Rambler and will go on the Sam). Same with the 
>> Specialized Crossroads - that was going to be my next project, but there's 
>> no need now. So, add 1 bike, sell 5. 
>> Also, the place-hold for the new Sams is up on the Riv site. Will told me 
>> a couple week ago that they were already short on the 51's due to Blue Lug 
>> snagging a bunch. So if you're considering and on the fence, I suggest 
>> getting your name in quick.
>>
>> Mike M
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 10:42:40 PM UTC-7, Ben Mihovk wrote:
>>>
>>> I love Path Less Pedaled!!! Great stuff on his Sam and I can't wait to 
>>> see what modifications he makes to it (he threw drops on it yesterday, it 
>>> looks like on Instagram!)
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 10:55:33 PM UTC-5 brettjc...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I don't know what the reader/viewer overlap between the Riv list and 
 the Path Less Pedaled list is like, outside of Michael Mann and myself, 
 but 
 damn am I excited by this!

 https://www.instagram.com/p/CDccdhYHoFU/?igshid=phskilu88qw3
 (Link is to their Instagram, I'm mobile right know so you may have to 
 copy and paste, apologies) 

 Anyone know what model this is? 

 For those unfamiliar, Russ and his partner at Path Less Pedaled do a 
 lot of great bike reviews, videos and interviews with Industry folk "on 
 the 
 supple side" of cycling, i.e.; they're into non race oriented stuff. Worth 
 your time, I think. 

 Cheers, 

 Brett in PDX

>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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[RBW] Re: FS: Wide Noodle cockpit

[Joe Bernard]

I already answered Andy privately and they're too narrow for him, but I 
should put the info here. 
Soma 42
Easton 44

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 7:37:51 PM UTC-7 Andy Beichler wrote:

> How wide are the Soma One bars? If they are 46 I will take them.
>
>
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 4:49:23 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> SOLD.
>> Here's a couple more bars I'm selling for cheap, not very Rivy so I'm not 
>> going to attempt a new thread. SOMA Hwy 1 with interrupters, free plus 
>> shipping. 
>> Easton AX something-something flared cyclocross bars, never mounted $40 
>> shipped. 
>> Make lowball offer on stems, everything is 31.8 clamp. 
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 3:25:32 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Just pulled from my new-to-me Bombadil, these babies are wide! 48cm 
>>> heat-treated Nitto Noodle, Nitto DirtDrop 10cm stem, Cane Creek SCR-5C for 
>>> canti and road levers, Tektro interrupters, Shimano 9-speed bar-ends, nice 
>>> corkish tape nicely twined. 
>>>
>>> This is a really nice setup I'd hate to tear down so I'm going to try to 
>>> sell the whole schlamozzle first. 
>>>
>>> $200 plus shipping. At this price if you only need parts of it you could 
>>> probably sell the other bits off and get a little cash back in the process. 
>>> Getchu a high, wide and handsome dropbar cockpit like all the gravel kids 
>>> at Analog Cycles are doing! 
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard 
>>> Marin County CA. 
>>> joeremi62 at the Gmail
>>> Text 415 786 4623
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Path Less Pedaled will review a Riv!

[Joel Stern]

Riv is not listing them other than saying blue and dark gold.  Have you
seen a sample of the dark gold? I was hoping for Orange again.  Is the
price to remain the same?  Thanks
Joel

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 9:07 PM velomann  wrote:

> Russ's videos, and his enthusiasm for the Sam (he did decide to buy it)
> pushed me over the edge and I put my deposit down 2 weeks ago with Golden
> pliers for a 51cm Sam H in the Dark Gold. I've been a Riv fanboy and
> occasional presence on this list for years, but this will actually be my
> own first Rivendell. I've owned (and sold) several Bridgestones, I had (and
> wrecked) an Ocean Air Cycles Rambler. I just recently took delivery of a
> custom Bantam disc brake sport tourer to replace the Rambler. And in the
> Portland bike community I'm involved with it's only a slight exageration
> when I say All My Friends Have Rivendells. Like Russ I've given the
> Rivendell treatment to several of my bikes, but it's time to go all in for
> the real deal. Part of my thinking is also a bit of a pendulum swing back
> to rim brakes, encouraged by Russ's review, as well as some comments Ron
> (Ultraromance) made about his Atlantis with Canti brakes on the GDMBR when
> Russ interviewed him a few months ago.
> Another bonus is that adding the Sam will actually reduce my stable. Part
> of my decision was "what bikes will this replace?" So I sold the 89 MB-2
> drop-bar conversion, the BS Mile 112 is currently listed, and the Trek 750
> is about to go as soon as I swap out the Albatross bars (going on the Sam).
> Also the Trek 930 650b conversion - back to 26" and on to Craigslist (the
> wheels were from the Rambler and will go on the Sam). Same with the
> Specialized Crossroads - that was going to be my next project, but there's
> no need now. So, add 1 bike, sell 5.
> Also, the place-hold for the new Sams is up on the Riv site. Will told me
> a couple week ago that they were already short on the 51's due to Blue Lug
> snagging a bunch. So if you're considering and on the fence, I suggest
> getting your name in quick.
>
> Mike M
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 10:42:40 PM UTC-7, Ben Mihovk wrote:
>>
>> I love Path Less Pedaled!!! Great stuff on his Sam and I can't wait to
>> see what modifications he makes to it (he threw drops on it yesterday, it
>> looks like on Instagram!)
>>
>> On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 10:55:33 PM UTC-5 brettjc...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know what the reader/viewer overlap between the Riv list and the
>>> Path Less Pedaled list is like, outside of Michael Mann and myself, but
>>> damn am I excited by this!
>>>
>>> https://www.instagram.com/p/CDccdhYHoFU/?igshid=phskilu88qw3
>>> (Link is to their Instagram, I'm mobile right know so you may have to
>>> copy and paste, apologies)
>>>
>>> Anyone know what model this is?
>>>
>>> For those unfamiliar, Russ and his partner at Path Less Pedaled do a lot
>>> of great bike reviews, videos and interviews with Industry folk "on the
>>> supple side" of cycling, i.e.; they're into non race oriented stuff. Worth
>>> your time, I think.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Brett in PDX
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[RBW] Clem Smith Jr. on Tallahassee Trails

[Aaron Russell]

A few years ago my wife bought the "World's Best Three-Speed" Clem Smith
Jr. "bike of the week" (
https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/bikeoweek-1)
when it later appeared as a sale item on the Rivendell website. Sheila
prefers step-through frames and at 6 foot 2 inches tall it's hard for her
to find a nice one that fits well in our price range, so we jumped on it at
the reduced price.

We recently relocated from Houston to Tallahassee, FL, where there are many
mountain bike trails, so I borrowed the bike, gave it a go on some easy
trails with some local riders I befriended, and wrote up a blog post about
the experience.  Coming from zero mountain biking experience, it was a real
blast and I plan to try out some other trails with it tomorrow.

Blog post here: https://rando12051.com/trailahassee/

Best, Aaron

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[RBW] 650B Ceviot in Portland

[Jeffrey S]

https://portland.craigslist.org/clc/bik/d/lake-oswego-womens/7191002609.html

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 9:03:00 PM UTC-7 Kevin D norcal wrote:

>
>
> https://sacramento.craigslist.org/bik/d/sacramento-classic-rivendell/7189251173.html
>
> On Wednesday, July 8, 2020 at 4:11:41 PM UTC-7 Matthew Williams wrote:
>
>> This thread is for Rivendells you've found on eBay, CraigsList, and sites 
>> beyond: bikes in which you think someone here might be interested. This 
>> thread isn't for posting ads to your own ad, it's just so people who are 
>> searching or interested have a place to look, like, "Hey, check this out!" 
>> Here are a few, from today's searches:
>>
>> 61cm Roadini
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/283940882590
>>
>> 58cm Quickbeam
>>
>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/pinole-rivendell-quickbeam-58/7154380920.html
>>
>> 52cm Clementine
>>
>> https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bik/d/richardson-rivendell-clementine/7130894748.html
>>
>> 65cm Redwood
>>
>> https://bellingham.craigslist.org/bik/d/bellingham-rivendell-redwood/7153843392.html
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Oct 2020 Sam Hillborne page

[Jeffrey S]

Would love to buy someones 55cm Sage colored Canti framset if you are 
upgrading to a new one! I'm here in Portland, OR.

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 5:39:49 PM UTC-7 velomann wrote:

> I put my deposit down 2 weeks ago with Golden Pliers for a 51 in Dark 
> Gold. I exchanged a couple emails with Will at Riv, and he sent me the 
> color pic that's now on the site. I like it, but before the picture I was 
> expecting an "Olive Gold" or something like the dark mustard some of the 
> Clems were painted. This looks much more on the orange side of the 
> spectrum. 
> For what it's worth, Will also said they were already low on the 51cm size 
> - Blue Lug as spoken for most of them. So if you're on the fence about one 
> of these and are in the size range of the average Japanese rider, get on it 
> quick.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 3:07:38 PM UTC-7, John W wrote:
>>
>> Looks like it’s up and in placeholder mode. 
>>
>>
>> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/frame-sam-hillborne-2020
>>
>> Sizing (or at least the size names) have changed. My PBH of 86 always 
>> seems to fall in between two sizes. If I want the option of switching up 
>> bars between drops and something swept back should I go for the larger or 
>> smaller size? I’ll mostly be riding on pavement. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Wide Noodle cockpit

[Andy Beichler]

How wide are the Soma One bars? If they are 46 I will take them.

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 4:49:23 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> SOLD.
> Here's a couple more bars I'm selling for cheap, not very Rivy so I'm not 
> going to attempt a new thread. SOMA Hwy 1 with interrupters, free plus 
> shipping. 
> Easton AX something-something flared cyclocross bars, never mounted $40 
> shipped. 
> Make lowball offer on stems, everything is 31.8 clamp. 
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 3:25:32 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Just pulled from my new-to-me Bombadil, these babies are wide! 48cm 
>> heat-treated Nitto Noodle, Nitto DirtDrop 10cm stem, Cane Creek SCR-5C for 
>> canti and road levers, Tektro interrupters, Shimano 9-speed bar-ends, nice 
>> corkish tape nicely twined. 
>>
>> This is a really nice setup I'd hate to tear down so I'm going to try to 
>> sell the whole schlamozzle first. 
>>
>> $200 plus shipping. At this price if you only need parts of it you could 
>> probably sell the other bits off and get a little cash back in the process. 
>> Getchu a high, wide and handsome dropbar cockpit like all the gravel kids 
>> at Analog Cycles are doing! 
>>
>> Joe Bernard 
>> Marin County CA. 
>> joeremi62 at the Gmail
>> Text 415 786 4623
>>
>

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[RBW] FS: Soma San Marcos (54cm)

[Dan Godfrey]

Hey All, 

Selling this stallion. Lugged steel frame designed by Grant Petersen of 
Rivendell, produced by Soma. Thin(ish) Tange Prestige tubing, Rivendell 
lugs, beautiful blue paint, 650b model (v2.5). Awesome bike, selling 
because I've finally admitted that the fit isn't right for me. Currently 
built up as a fast rando with extralight tires, black nitto front rack, 
etc. Frame is in good condition, light cosmetic dings pictured in photos. 
This bike is fast, smooth, beautiful and versatile. Currently running 
Compass/Rene Herse 650b 38mm Loup Loup Pass Extralight tires, but 
previously mounted 42mm tires. 

Photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/36BpArLnfYB4cM2G7 
Geometry/Info: https://www.somafab.com/archives/product/san-marcos-frame-set
 
Grant's Description of the V1: 
http://www.somafab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/san-marcos-flyer2.pdf

Parts:
Full Ultegra (Brifters, long cage rear derailleur) 
*Dura Ace front derailleur 
Ultegra 11-32 cassette 
Ultegra Chain 
Thomson Elite Seatpost 
Nitto stem
Soma Highway One Handlebar, 44mm
Bontrager crankset
Tektro R559 Brakes
Ultegra Hubs
Velocity A23 rims, DT Swiss lightweight spokes
Compass/RH Loup Loup Pass 38mm Extralight tires
Nitto front rack (black)

$1400. Feel free to contact me with comments or questions. Bike comes 
without pedals or seat, but I can toss in a seat if necessary. Shipping 
possible, local sale possible. Let's talk. 

Dan in Seattle

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith Jr H 59cm Dark Green Complete

[scott minor]

59cm Clem H complete still available.  Also can throw in a set of VO 63mm 
fluted fenders and used 50mm Soma Cazaderos which work well together..  

psco...@gmail.com


On Thursday, August 27, 2020 at 12:07:44 PM UTC-4, scott minor wrote:
>
> 59cm Clem H complete $1250 + shipping
>
>
> photos here: 
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/147564748@N06/albums/72157715683516157
>
>
> Includes the following:
>
> Deore / Cliffhanger wheel set hand-built by LBS, set up tubeless with 
> brand new Rene Herse 55mm Fleecer Ridge Endurance tires ($$!).
>
> 1 x 10sp Microshift clutch derailleur, 12-42 10sp cassette, Wolftooth 
> 'dropstop' 40T chainring on 7400 Dura Ace crankset, Microshift thumb 
> shifter, shifts quietly and smoothly, haven't yet had a false shift!  
>
> Deore V-brakes with Shimano levers.
>
> Nitto 120mm stem with 58cm heat treated Bosco bars, silicone grips.
>
> Stock seat post with black Brooks B17 saddle.
>
> Note:  (Pedals, water bottle cages and rear rack seen in photos not 
> included, will sell rack separately if interested)
>
> Bike is in excellent condition, no marks that I can see except a couple 
> light scratches on the right chain stay, probably from taking the wheels 
> on/off and chain rubbing against the chain stay while loading it in and out 
> of the car.
>
> located in southwest VA
>
> contact psco...@gmail.com
>
> thanks!  -Scott 
>
>  
>

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[RBW] Re: Path Less Pedaled will review a Riv!

[velomann]

Russ's videos, and his enthusiasm for the Sam (he did decide to buy it) 
pushed me over the edge and I put my deposit down 2 weeks ago with Golden 
pliers for a 51cm Sam H in the Dark Gold. I've been a Riv fanboy and 
occasional presence on this list for years, but this will actually be my 
own first Rivendell. I've owned (and sold) several Bridgestones, I had (and 
wrecked) an Ocean Air Cycles Rambler. I just recently took delivery of a 
custom Bantam disc brake sport tourer to replace the Rambler. And in the 
Portland bike community I'm involved with it's only a slight exageration 
when I say All My Friends Have Rivendells. Like Russ I've given the 
Rivendell treatment to several of my bikes, but it's time to go all in for 
the real deal. Part of my thinking is also a bit of a pendulum swing back 
to rim brakes, encouraged by Russ's review, as well as some comments Ron 
(Ultraromance) made about his Atlantis with Canti brakes on the GDMBR when 
Russ interviewed him a few months ago. 
Another bonus is that adding the Sam will actually reduce my stable. Part 
of my decision was "what bikes will this replace?" So I sold the 89 MB-2 
drop-bar conversion, the BS Mile 112 is currently listed, and the Trek 750 
is about to go as soon as I swap out the Albatross bars (going on the Sam). 
Also the Trek 930 650b conversion - back to 26" and on to Craigslist (the 
wheels were from the Rambler and will go on the Sam). Same with the 
Specialized Crossroads - that was going to be my next project, but there's 
no need now. So, add 1 bike, sell 5. 
Also, the place-hold for the new Sams is up on the Riv site. Will told me a 
couple week ago that they were already short on the 51's due to Blue Lug 
snagging a bunch. So if you're considering and on the fence, I suggest 
getting your name in quick.

Mike M

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 10:42:40 PM UTC-7, Ben Mihovk wrote:
>
> I love Path Less Pedaled!!! Great stuff on his Sam and I can't wait to see 
> what modifications he makes to it (he threw drops on it yesterday, it looks 
> like on Instagram!)
>
> On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 10:55:33 PM UTC-5 brettjc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I don't know what the reader/viewer overlap between the Riv list and the 
>> Path Less Pedaled list is like, outside of Michael Mann and myself, but 
>> damn am I excited by this!
>>
>> https://www.instagram.com/p/CDccdhYHoFU/?igshid=phskilu88qw3
>> (Link is to their Instagram, I'm mobile right know so you may have to 
>> copy and paste, apologies) 
>>
>> Anyone know what model this is? 
>>
>> For those unfamiliar, Russ and his partner at Path Less Pedaled do a lot 
>> of great bike reviews, videos and interviews with Industry folk "on the 
>> supple side" of cycling, i.e.; they're into non race oriented stuff. Worth 
>> your time, I think. 
>>
>> Cheers, 
>>
>> Brett in PDX
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Standover?

[Ben Mihovk]

Good to know! I'm getting Soma Shikoro 42mm on mine, so I'm guessing it's 
going to be pretty close to 87cm standover. Not a big deal if it's within a 
couple cm. I'm a little neurotic and worried that I'm still going to have 
to jack up my seat post to get my SH where it needs to be, but that doesn't 
matterVince knows what he's doing and this bike is going to be 
incredible. Can't wait to get it!

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:11:10 PM UTC-5 masmojo wrote:

> I think that's probably a Minimum not a maximum! The tires are probably 
> about 47mm not maximum (but that's an educated guess on my part and would 
> like ly be higher with bigger tires)
>
>
> On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 8:50:46 AM UTC-5, Ben Mihovk wrote:
>>
>> So I found the answer to my question...a 59cm Atlantis has a max 
>> standover of 87. I'm assuming that's with the biggest tires the frame would 
>> fit. 
>
>
>  
>
>>  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Oct 2020 Sam Hillborne page

[velomann]

I put my deposit down 2 weeks ago with Golden Pliers for a 51 in Dark Gold. 
I exchanged a couple emails with Will at Riv, and he sent me the color pic 
that's now on the site. I like it, but before the picture I was expecting 
an "Olive Gold" or something like the dark mustard some of the Clems were 
painted. This looks much more on the orange side of the spectrum. 
For what it's worth, Will also said they were already low on the 51cm size 
- Blue Lug as spoken for most of them. So if you're on the fence about one 
of these and are in the size range of the average Japanese rider, get on it 
quick.

Mike

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 3:07:38 PM UTC-7, John W wrote:
>
> Looks like it’s up and in placeholder mode. 
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/frame-sam-hillborne-2020
>
> Sizing (or at least the size names) have changed. My PBH of 86 always 
> seems to fall in between two sizes. If I want the option of switching up 
> bars between drops and something swept back should I go for the larger or 
> smaller size? I’ll mostly be riding on pavement. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Oct 2020 Sam Hillborne page

[Joe Bernard]

Dark Gold!

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 3:07:38 PM UTC-7 John W wrote:

> Looks like it’s up and in placeholder mode. 
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/frame-sam-hillborne-2020
>
> Sizing (or at least the size names) have changed. My PBH of 86 always 
> seems to fall in between two sizes. If I want the option of switching up 
> bars between drops and something swept back should I go for the larger or 
> smaller size? I’ll mostly be riding on pavement. 
>

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[RBW] Oct 2020 Sam Hillborne page

[John Woo]

Looks like it’s up and in placeholder mode. 

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/frame-sam-hillborne-2020

Sizing (or at least the size names) have changed. My PBH of 86 always seems to 
fall in between two sizes. If I want the option of switching up bars between 
drops and something swept back should I go for the larger or smaller size? I’ll 
mostly be riding on pavement. 

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[RBW] Rambouillet as Tourer

[Mike Godwin]

Howdy, looking through the archives about using a Rambouillet as a touring 
machine. I toured along the spine of the Cascades and Sierra on a 
Specialized Sequoia, and along Highway 1 SF to LA.  The Rambouillet seems a 
bit more stout than the Sequoia.  Most of the old touring related posts 
here are from 2012 - 2014.  Any new news about tours folks have done on 
their Rambouillets?  What pannier arrangements did you use? Self-supported, 
road surface? 

Mike SLO CA 

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Re: [RBW] max tire size - Canti Rom

[J Schwartz]

Thanks for that
those 40's look a smidge close 



On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 1:42:33 AM UTC-4, Andy Casler wrote:
>
> I also have a Canti-Rom, and though I’ve haven’t gotten around to 
> installing big tires yet, here’s a older thread with some info.:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/HYX-8AMupwQ/m/mCK0H6PA8ysJ
>
>
> —Andy C.
> SF
>
> On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 4:58 PM J Schwartz  > wrote:
>
>> Curious if anyone knows the max comfy tire size for a Canti-Rom. (700c)
>> The non-canti version takes 38's according to the original brochure.
>> thank you
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
>>
>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/dac5973b-200c-4e26-9f20-e79eab4aeb1co%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Who is using bike lights?

[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of blinding lights contrasted with useful illumination: Back about
2002 or so I bought NiteRider's then brand-new, state-of-art, truly
dentist-level-price arc light system, headlamp and tail lamp (was the tail
lamp an early LED? I forget). That thing was so bright that, when I rode
down our residential street, oncoming cars more than once pulled wy
over to the opposite curb; and one night, riding through the Fairgrounds on
the way home, a cop yelled, "That is one bright light!" -- and we all know
that cops are hard to impress.

But the beam was unfocused, and the nearfield brightness basically ruined
distance vision. I got rid of it because the damned thing kept breaking,
and went to the other side of the chart with 2 X 4-AA Vistalight or
whatever it was $25 first-gen LED lights strapped to each fork leg; watts
and lumens a fraction of what they replaces, but to my surprise and
pleasure, providing as much useful illumination as the NR system costing 8X
as much.

The 1,200 lumen (high; 600 low) K-Lite is much the same, not as bright of
course, but I do welcome this indiscriminate blanket of light when riding
through bosque thicket-tunnels at night.

Aside: philosophical musing; delete if you are of a purely practical mind.
Speaking of "lumens" and even "lux" and "candlepower:" I was thinking about
this recently; each of these metrics -- some more relevant to real night
illumination than others -- are all indirect means (= "middle") of applying
discrete quantity (this means "counting" because that is what you do with
number) to something inherently non-quantitative by means of an intervening
magnitude or continuous quantity; similar to describing "red" in terms of
wavelength by means of a patch of red on the wall. "Illumination" in the
sense of "how well does this let me see?" is non-quantitative and refers
back to (resolves to) the primal experience of seeing at night; just as
"red" inescapably means "this particular experience of seeing," and every
subsequent definition ineluctably refers back to such primary experience,
on pain of meaning nothing -- something often forgotten. So there. End
musing.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 11:44 AM masmojo  wrote:

> ... Yes, Lumens is not really relevant to overall visibility or the
> ability to see at night and is merely a measure of Brightness or Intensity,
> Overall visibility is represented by the LUX measurement which actually
> measures the area of usable illumination. Most German manufacturers use
> this rating system, but some manufacturers don't (to my knowledge) I have
> some SuperNova lights that I like quite a bit and their advertising would
> make it sound like they would scorch the surface of the earth, but they
> don't really seem any brighter that my 70LUX B's!!??  All the ratings
> that I see for them are in Lumens not Lux?
>
> One thing I always say and apologizes if you've heard it before, " 4
> things that should require an IQ test & don't: Getting a Drivers License,
> Voting, Jury Duty, and buying a gun." Maybe you could add getting a
> marriage certificate and/or having Kids? LOL
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Anyone using 48mm Compass/Rene Herse tires on a Sam Hillborne

[Joel]

I know the specs say up to 47mm but then I hear people talk about using 
larger tires than spec’d on some bikes.  Thinking without fenders.

Thanks 

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Re: [RBW] Who is using bike lights?

[masmojo]

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 11:04:36 AM UTC-5, Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:
>
> With respect to visibility and lighting, I read somewhere that overall 
> visibility is correlated with the size of the light, rather than its 
> intensity. This made sense to me because lights don't have infinite energy 
> supplies, so your 1 watt of LED light energy can be concentrated into one 
> small cone (beam?) of retina-searing capability, or diffused into a 
> wide-angle slab that has a higher chance of being noticed by those who are 
> not exactly in the cone of blindness. In fact, all motorized vehicles 
> appear to have the diffused type of light, even if some can be diffused 
> *and* bright.
>
> The usual light marketing copies often remind me of way back, when 
> computers were marketed solely on their clock speed instead of actual 
> ability to function in a useful manner. We see lumen being bandied about 
> all the time to sell lights, but that is a fairly useless metric because 
> having a lot of light doesn't mean that light is being put to good use; 
> what's useful is lux at a specific distance (let's say 10m), like with 
> StVZO standards.
>
>
Yes, Lumens is not really relevant to overall visibility or the ability to 
see at night and is merely a measure of Brightness or Intensity, Overall 
visibility is represented by the LUX measurement which actually measures 
the area of usable illumination. Most German manufacturers use this rating 
system, but some manufacturers don't (to my knowledge) I have some 
SuperNova lights that I like quite a bit and their advertising would make 
it sound like they would scorch the surface of the earth, but they don't 
really seem any brighter that my 70LUX B's!!??  All the ratings that I 
see for them are in Lumens not Lux?

One thing I always say and apologizes if you've heard it before, " 4 things 
that should require an IQ test & don't: Getting a Drivers License, Voting, 
Jury Duty, and buying a gun." Maybe you could add getting a marriage 
certificate and/or having Kids? LOL


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[RBW] Re: Just Pics from Your Good Ride Thread

[EricP]

Very nice. Here's the new Clem in front of the St. Paul, MN Seventh Street 
Improvement Arches. (A National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark). The 
more I ride this bike, the more fun I'm having. Getting closer to having it 
dialed in and decked out. Not happy with the bell though. Sticks up too 
much. And the seatpost was slightly slipping, so it's been replaced with a 
black Kalloy Uno. 

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-5 Paul in Dallas wrote:

> Pic from today's ride after playing with special effects.
>
> Paul in Dallas 
>
>
> [image: Image]
>

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[RBW] Re: Has anyone ridden the Platypus demo bike that can offer an opinion?

[masmojo]

Well, Yes I am guessing that most of us read that, but I am not sure how 
updated info on the new Cheviot pushes the Platypus discussion along?
Of course it goes back to a question of mine from several months ago: "were 
the Platypus and the new Cheviot actually two different bikes?" Some people 
said no, but it certainly seems to me that they are distinct!?
Not that it matters too much I am waiting for the Platypus in whatever for 
it ends up being.  A 55cm in Rosco Red please

On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 3:24:19 PM UTC-5, Hetchins52 wrote:
>
> Will wrote about a sample Cheviot frame in his April 23rd weekly update: 
> "Here's one of those sample frames. It's an updated version of the 
> Cheviot, although Grant is considering having a new name and new decals for 
> it.
> The forks came without v-brake studs (I'm not calling them canti-posts 
> anymore), so forgive the mis-matched brakes. This 55cm frame rides like a 
> dream... it feels bigger in a good way compared to the old 55cm, which I 
> attribute to the 700c wheels, slightly slacker headtube angle and longer 
> top tube. I think it's mostly the wheels. The v-brakes are the big change, 
> but there's other small things that most people might not notice. We'll 
> have more details later."
> He posted this picture:
>
>
> David Lipsky
>
> On Friday, September 4, 2020 at 9:32:34 AM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>>  I’m hopeful they will release info soon though; they did post a 
>> photo of an unpainted Platypus that they said would arrive painted at HQ 
>> towards the end of August. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Standover?

[masmojo]

I think that's probably a Minimum not a maximum! The tires are probably 
about 47mm not maximum (but that's an educated guess on my part and would 
like ly be higher with bigger tires)

On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 8:50:46 AM UTC-5, Ben Mihovk wrote:
>
> So I found the answer to my question...a 59cm Atlantis has a max standover 
> of 87. I'm assuming that's with the biggest tires the frame would fit. 


 

>  

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Re: [RBW] Clems for Kids

[Leah Peterson]

Thanks, Mark! I see the resemblance between those bikes.

Meanwhile, older son wants his old Boscos moved over from his grilver bike to 
his big blue bike. I went on Riv’s website to order new (non-moosey) Boscos and 
found these “Baby Boscos.” 
https://www.rivbike.com/collections/handlebars/products/etww326etkah332kfak

I’m thinking these will be perfect for my littler son on the grilver Clem. Has 
anyone else used these? I didn’t even know they existed until now. I’d go out 
with the tape measure and try to imagine how they will look but we’re in Utah 
for the weekend. 

I ordered them, and now I just need to choose a stem (don’t know what size to 
order - maybe 70 mm reach???). I’ll post pics of the Baby Boscos when I get 
them on the bike.

More on that later; I’m going white water rafting now!
Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 5, 2020, at 8:23 PM, Mark Roland  wrote:
> 
> 
> You have a couple of handsome fellas there, BBDD. They are blessed to have an 
> active mom who loves bicycling and shares that joy.
> 
> The shot of the beautiful 45cm Clem is so reminiscent of a bicycle I am 
> selling right now. It is such a cool bike, I am first trying to find a friend 
> who needs a bike--double butted 4130 frame that can take monster size tires, 
> long wheelbase, triple crank, accepts fenders and racks, upright bars. 
> Admittedly a bit slacker in the head tube! It's definitely a Hillibike, 
> kid-sized (seat high so I could ride it)!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 1:26:43 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrotClem photos
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Ben Mihovk]

What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of frames 
that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little nuanced 
differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences in 
sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over 93cm, 
so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough 
because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have 
enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that 
would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the 
Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged 
that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes. 

I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes sense...the 
Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it makes sense 
that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes. 


On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 10:07:05 AM UTC-5 ted wrote:

> I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now 
> MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. 
> May as well make the brakes different.
> I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style 
> preference would make a lot of sense.
> Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or 
> name would make a lot of sense too.
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
>> part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
>> harboring:
>>
>> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the Toyo/Waterford 
>> Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was still around at 
>> this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road bikes. Later the Ram 
>> went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam morphed into the 
>> caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are all different and I 
>> won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been arcane enough!
>>
>> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull 
>>> brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake 
>>> itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a 
>>> canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork 
>>> rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That 
>>> said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything 
>>> bigger than a 42c. 
>>>
>>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going 
>>> to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 New newer newest ...
 Standard oversised ...
 normal short long ...
 Traditional ...

 All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which 
 may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying 
 attention.
 From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
 more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more 
 limited sizing.
 With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from 
 "traditional".
 Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
 side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention 
 V 
 brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
 But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
 practical bikes and what works.

 There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis 
 and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs 
 were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake 
 bridge 
 so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the 
 slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic 
 wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and 
 forth 
 quite a bit.

 I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various 
 types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all 
 can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and 
 least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient 
 clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
 I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has 
 dual pivot brakes. 


 On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>
> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the 
> last one Rivelo 

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[ted]

I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now 
MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. 
May as well make the brakes different.
I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style preference 
would make a lot of sense.
Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or 
name would make a lot of sense too.

On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:56:14 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my 
> part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to 
> harboring:
>
> Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the Toyo/Waterford 
> Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was still around at 
> this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road bikes. Later the Ram 
> went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam morphed into the 
> caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are all different and I 
> won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been arcane enough!
>
> Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 
>
> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 7:10:37 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes 
>> is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie 
>> it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or 
>> v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather 
>> than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said, 
>> the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than 
>> a 42c. 
>>
>> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going 
>> to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>>
>>> New newer newest ...
>>> Standard oversised ...
>>> normal short long ...
>>> Traditional ...
>>>
>>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which 
>>> may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying 
>>> attention.
>>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the 
>>> more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more 
>>> limited sizing.
>>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
>>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye 
>>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V 
>>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about 
>>> practical bikes and what works.
>>>
>>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis 
>>> and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs 
>>> were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge 
>>> so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the 
>>> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic 
>>> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth 
>>> quite a bit.
>>>
>>> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various 
>>> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all 
>>> can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and 
>>> least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient 
>>> clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
>>> I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual 
>>> pivot brakes. 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:

 This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the 
 last one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of 
 them, in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more 
 "traditional" Riv designs that ended a few years ago.

 On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to 
> calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or 
> country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for 
> that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire 
> and 
> fender clearance.
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:
>
>> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 
>>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
> -- 
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
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>>> To unsubscribe from this 

[RBW] Orange Sam in the House

[True Golden]

Thanks Andy.
I think my Sam is from a 2018 batch.
How does one verify?
Mine has the caliper brakes.
I am sure enjoying it and about to make a few more cockpit changes.
Paul in Dallas 

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[RBW] Re: Standover?

[Ben Mihovk]

So I found the answer to my question...a 59cm Atlantis has a max standover 
of 87. I'm assuming that's with the biggest tires the frame would fit. 


On Sunday, September 6, 2020 at 12:42:02 AM UTC-5 Ben Mihovk wrote:

> Good afternoon!
> My name is Ben and I just joined this group! I'm a long-time Rivendell 
> admirer and have wanted one for AGES. I bought an inexpensive knock-around 
> bike in November to start commuting to work and seeing if I could get into 
> riding enough to justify going all-out on a Rivendell. Long story short, I 
> am obsessed, ride a lot now, and just placed an order for a 59cm Atlantis 
> last Tuesday!
>
> My question...and I apologize if this has been discussed already...but why 
> are there no numbers given for standover for the Atlantis and a few other 
> frames on the Geo Chart on the Rivendell website? I get why the 
> step-through frames wouldn't have them listed, but Atlantis, Appaloosa, and 
> Sams are all without. 
>
> Selfishly, I just want to know what my standover on a 59cm Atlantis might 
> be. I'm certain it's the right sized frame (Vince suggested it as I was 
> originally after a 61.5 Homer), but I'd just like to know. 
>
> Thanks!
> Ben
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: First ride, Atlantis

[Joel Stern]

Thank you Patrick.

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 1:41 AM 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Congrats, Joel! Sounds like you're getting it dialed in. I agree with your
> observations on the wheelbase difference being nearly unnoticeable. I ride
> a Quickbeam and a Gus that are on yet more extreme polar ends of the Riv
> spectrum and 1) I only notice the difference on technical trails, with
> extreme climbing or rock dancing where I have to account for the greater
> difference in the turn arcs of Gus; and 2) riding 20 miles frequently,
> 1/3rd each paved, dirt road, and technical single track, my time of arrival
> is within a minute of each other time and time again. When I track the
> times by surface, the QB wins the roads, Gus wins the single track, and
> they equally counter each other.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Eric Daume]

And for me, a side pull CHG kills it. Those long reach sidepulls are weak
and flexy. No thanks.

Eric
V brake fan

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 10:10 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes
> is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie
> it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or
> v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather
> than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said,
> the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than
> a 42c.
>
> Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going to
> be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> New newer newest ...
>> Standard oversised ...
>> normal short long ...
>> Traditional ...
>>
>> All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which
>> may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying
>> attention.
>> From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the more
>> "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more limited
>> sizing.
>> With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".
>> Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye
>> side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V
>> brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.
>> But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about practical
>> bikes and what works.
>>
>> There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis
>> and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs
>> were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge
>> so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the
>> slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic
>> wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth
>> quite a bit.
>>
>> I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various
>> types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all
>> can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and
>> least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient
>> clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.
>> I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual
>> pivot brakes.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 5:20:59 PM UTC-7, Nathan F wrote:
>>>
>>> This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last
>>> one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them,
>>> in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv
>>> designs that ended a few years ago.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, 5 September 2020 16:12:03 UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to
 calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or
 country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for
 that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and
 fender clearance.

 On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel  wrote:

> The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes?
>
 --

 ---
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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