Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Michael Hechmer]

I agree with everything Steve has written but can add a few more variables 
to think about, along with sharing personal experience.  In 45 years of 
adult riding and wrenching I have owned and used a lot of brakes. 
 Currently I have Paul's Racer Ms on the Ram, Neo-Retros on the Saluki, 
Tecktros on the Trek and posted Racers on the Bilenky tandem, but am 
switching these to cantis while getting that frame powder coated. Here's 
what I like about each.

CP brakes sit above the fender and so the pivots stay a lot cleaner than 
cantis, which sit next to the wheel, below the fender.  Living on a dirt 
road this helps reduce my clean/maintenance work.  The Racer M's on the Ram 
have very good stoping power and offer better fender clearance than Shimano 
dual pivot sidepulls but not much better than old single pivots like the 
Campy Grand Comps.

The posted racers on the tandem also offer good stopping power but it is 
hard to compare with a single, since the weight & distribution are so 
radically different. (Our tandem, loaded for inn to inn travel, weighs 
about 440 lbs.)   The Racers are specked for 55 mm fenders but I have fit 
the VO 60 mm under them. The brakes are compact and travel easily when I 
disassemble the tandem for travel, which cantis don't do so well. However 
these brakes just barely open enough to clear an (actual) 38mm tire.  Above 
that would require deflating the tire.  That's why I am switching to 
cantis, to use a 44 mm tire.

The Neo-Retros have phenomenal stopping power, the best opening, 
(especially with road pads instead of the long V brake pads they typically 
come with.) but they do get pretty grimy if you ride in a lot of rain. 
 This doesn't affect their power but I suspect wears the pivots.

I dispute the assertion that all cantis are hard to set up.  There is a 
small learning curve with the Paul's, since the process is different but 
after that it is very easy and the on-line instructions are clear.  I have 
owned Shimano and Tectro cantis, both of which were annoyingly hard to deal 
with.  I have also owned a pair of hi profile Di-Compe's which were easy to 
set up but had sub-par braking power.

Paul's brakes are expensive (although not as expensive as Compass) but all 
the wear parts are available at very reasonable prices.  If I were 40 years 
younger and just starting to collect good road bikes, good cantis would be 
my first choice with maybe disks getting a look see.

Michael



On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 12:58:34 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 04/04/2016 12:27 PM, Lungimsam wrote: 
> > 1.Which are better for use with fork braze ons and why? For recreational 
> road riding. 
> > 
> > 2. Is either just fine? I'm guessing it is but the more online stuff I 
> read, the more overthinking results. 
> > 
> > Funny how before I started online bike reading everything about my bikes 
> was just fine. 
> > 
>
> And in fact in many ways the correct answer is they are both just fine.   
> But, in some cases, you could make an argument that one or the other is 
> superior.  For example: 
>
> - Cantilever bosses are all pretty much the same and in pretty much the 
> same place, so you could switch brands of brakes if you wanted to, 
> whereas with centerpulls the brazed-on bosses are different from one 
> brand to another and their position is different, so you're committed 
> for live to a particular brake.  Some would see that as an advantage to 
> cantis.  The standard pivot location also means there's a wider 
> availability of off-the-shelf front racks, which maybe can save money. 
>
> - Some people find cantilever brakes to be difficult to impossible to 
> adjust correctly.  Now the fact is, "impossible" is an outright lie: 
> there are some skilled bike mechanics (Cycles Ed, who you might have 
> seen at the Peanut Tour or at Bike Virginia is fantastic) who can adjust 
> them just fine, but there are many local bike shop mechanics who simply 
> can't deal with them.  By contrast, centerpulls are very easy to adjust. 
>
> - Centerpull braze on bosses are located higher up on the fork blades 
> and seat stays, where the tubes are stiffer and more resistant to 
> bending forces than cantilevers.  This means that in those 
> edge-and-close-to-it cases where fork blade twist under hard braking 
> induces brake shudder centerpulls win.  It also means you can use less 
> stiff fork blades and seat stays with brazed on centerpulls, which 
> (provided they're sufficient) is also a win. Some have argued that this 
> also means centerpulls will always work better under very hard braking. 
>
> - Cantilever brakes can open wider, allowing a wider tire to pass 
> through than centerpulls.  In some cases, that can be an advantage. 
>
> - Centerpulls can suffer from cosine error - where a worn pad swings up 
> past the rim brake track and contacts the tire.  It doesn't take a 
> second for the brake pad to eat through the sidewall and cause a 
> blowout.  Cantilever brakes can 

Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Will]

There was a thread on this a few months back. Shudder often relates to 
length of cable from hanger to brake straddle wire. Several posters 
resolved the issue with a bottom-of-head-tube hanger:

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/ca15089.htm

I think Deacon Patrick resolved his Hung shudder this way. Perhaps he will 
comment.



On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 6:32:45 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> I don't like the canti brakes on my hunqapillar at all. The brake shudder 
> is so violent that it brings the front wheel off the ground.

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Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Brian Campbell]

Try some older XT V-Brakes. A snap to set up, work great and pretty 
inexpensive.




On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 7:32:45 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
>
> I don't like the canti brakes on my hunqapillar at all. The brake shudder 
> is so violent that it brings the front wheel off the ground.

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Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I don't like the canti brakes on my hunqapillar at all. The brake shudder is so 
violent that it brings the front wheel off the ground.

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Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Ron Mc]

Steve's reply is very thorough.  I'm going to add that Paul cantis pretty 
much solve the canti adjustment problem - they're a snap to adjust.  

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Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Shoji Takahashi]

Thanks for this detailed and clear response, Steve.

shoji



On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 12:58:34 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 04/04/2016 12:27 PM, Lungimsam wrote: 
> > 1.Which are better for use with fork braze ons and why? For recreational 
> road riding. 
> > 
> > 2. Is either just fine? I'm guessing it is but the more online stuff I 
> read, the more overthinking results. 
> > 
> > Funny how before I started online bike reading everything about my bikes 
> was just fine. 
> > 
>
> And in fact in many ways the correct answer is they are both just fine.   
> But, in some cases, you could make an argument that one or the other is 
> superior.  For example: 
>
> - Cantilever bosses are all pretty much the same and in pretty much the 
> same place, so you could switch brands of brakes if you wanted to, 
> whereas with centerpulls the brazed-on bosses are different from one 
> brand to another and their position is different, so you're committed 
> for live to a particular brake.  Some would see that as an advantage to 
> cantis.  The standard pivot location also means there's a wider 
> availability of off-the-shelf front racks, which maybe can save money. 
>
> - Some people find cantilever brakes to be difficult to impossible to 
> adjust correctly.  Now the fact is, "impossible" is an outright lie: 
> there are some skilled bike mechanics (Cycles Ed, who you might have 
> seen at the Peanut Tour or at Bike Virginia is fantastic) who can adjust 
> them just fine, but there are many local bike shop mechanics who simply 
> can't deal with them.  By contrast, centerpulls are very easy to adjust. 
>
> - Centerpull braze on bosses are located higher up on the fork blades 
> and seat stays, where the tubes are stiffer and more resistant to 
> bending forces than cantilevers.  This means that in those 
> edge-and-close-to-it cases where fork blade twist under hard braking 
> induces brake shudder centerpulls win.  It also means you can use less 
> stiff fork blades and seat stays with brazed on centerpulls, which 
> (provided they're sufficient) is also a win. Some have argued that this 
> also means centerpulls will always work better under very hard braking. 
>
> - Cantilever brakes can open wider, allowing a wider tire to pass 
> through than centerpulls.  In some cases, that can be an advantage. 
>
> - Centerpulls can suffer from cosine error - where a worn pad swings up 
> past the rim brake track and contacts the tire.  It doesn't take a 
> second for the brake pad to eat through the sidewall and cause a 
> blowout.  Cantilever brakes can do the opposite, and swing down past the 
> bottom edge of the rim and fall into the spokes.  At best this results 
> in no braking at all; at worst it can destroy the wheel. Hard call to 
> determine which is more frequent and which failure mode is worse. 
>
> - There may be cost differences.  The nicest currently available new 
> centerpull brakes (i.e., the Paul Racer and the Compass) are not cheap.   
> For some that may matter a great deal, although if we're talking about 
> custom frames that cost difference probably won't amount to much of the 
> total cost of the bike. 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Lee Legrand]

I think it is a matter of what you are doing.  If you are just riding in
terms of recreational, any kind of braking system (drum, disk, cantilever,
etc) will work but in terms of expense, using typical cantilever, or
caliper brake system is enough.

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:

> 1.Which are better for use with fork braze ons and why? For recreational
> road riding.
>
> 2. Is either just fine? I'm guessing it is but the more online stuff I
> read, the more overthinking results.
>
> Funny how before I started online bike reading everything about my bikes
> was just fine.
>
> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>

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Re: [RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/04/2016 12:27 PM, Lungimsam wrote:

1.Which are better for use with fork braze ons and why? For recreational road 
riding.

2. Is either just fine? I'm guessing it is but the more online stuff I read, 
the more overthinking results.

Funny how before I started online bike reading everything about my bikes was 
just fine.



And in fact in many ways the correct answer is they are both just fine.  
But, in some cases, you could make an argument that one or the other is 
superior.  For example:


- Cantilever bosses are all pretty much the same and in pretty much the 
same place, so you could switch brands of brakes if you wanted to, 
whereas with centerpulls the brazed-on bosses are different from one 
brand to another and their position is different, so you're committed 
for live to a particular brake.  Some would see that as an advantage to 
cantis.  The standard pivot location also means there's a wider 
availability of off-the-shelf front racks, which maybe can save money.


- Some people find cantilever brakes to be difficult to impossible to 
adjust correctly.  Now the fact is, "impossible" is an outright lie: 
there are some skilled bike mechanics (Cycles Ed, who you might have 
seen at the Peanut Tour or at Bike Virginia is fantastic) who can adjust 
them just fine, but there are many local bike shop mechanics who simply 
can't deal with them.  By contrast, centerpulls are very easy to adjust.


- Centerpull braze on bosses are located higher up on the fork blades 
and seat stays, where the tubes are stiffer and more resistant to 
bending forces than cantilevers.  This means that in those 
edge-and-close-to-it cases where fork blade twist under hard braking 
induces brake shudder centerpulls win.  It also means you can use less 
stiff fork blades and seat stays with brazed on centerpulls, which 
(provided they're sufficient) is also a win. Some have argued that this 
also means centerpulls will always work better under very hard braking.


- Cantilever brakes can open wider, allowing a wider tire to pass 
through than centerpulls.  In some cases, that can be an advantage.


- Centerpulls can suffer from cosine error - where a worn pad swings up 
past the rim brake track and contacts the tire.  It doesn't take a 
second for the brake pad to eat through the sidewall and cause a 
blowout.  Cantilever brakes can do the opposite, and swing down past the 
bottom edge of the rim and fall into the spokes.  At best this results 
in no braking at all; at worst it can destroy the wheel. Hard call to 
determine which is more frequent and which failure mode is worse.


- There may be cost differences.  The nicest currently available new 
centerpull brakes (i.e., the Paul Racer and the Compass) are not cheap.  
For some that may matter a great deal, although if we're talking about 
custom frames that cost difference probably won't amount to much of the 
total cost of the bike.





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[RBW] Centerpulls vs. cantis

[Lungimsam]

1.Which are better for use with fork braze ons and why? For recreational road 
riding.

2. Is either just fine? I'm guessing it is but the more online stuff I read, 
the more overthinking results.

Funny how before I started online bike reading everything about my bikes was 
just fine.

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