Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[Roberta]

It took a few tries rearranging the stem bag connections to make mine work. 

The stickstand worked very well but wasn’t practical enough for me, when 
leaving and coming back home. Bikes are in my small living room behind a 
chair. Take off stand and move bike around chair to open area. Stand on. 
Open front door and gate, stand off, take bike outside (90* angle to get 
through narrow front door), down steps, stand on. go back to lock door and 
gate and then leave, stand off. The opposite to return.   

If it weren’t for the inconvenience of getting in and out my front door 
(THAT is my real annoyance) , I’d have kept I that stand. It worked very 
well and I used it for about a 1 1/2 years. I would recommend it for 
lighter bikes like Homer and Sam, not for longer bikes like Platypus. 
Greenfield 
kickstand now on both bikes only because it’s annoying enough just getting 
out the front door and easy to just kick the stand.  

I did like that the weight wasn't on the bike when I had to lift it and 
saved about 1/2 lb. 

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 11:06:06 PM UTC-4 atreya...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thanks Roberta. That was a very interesting read. How convinent are those 
> kick stands? 
>
> PS: I have choco moose on my Atlantis. I love them! It introduced me to 
> chocos and I think they are my # favorites right now. But I am thinking of 
> swapping to regular chocos as they dont play well with my stem bag. 
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:55:04 AM UTC-7 Roberta wrote:
>
>> Deepak,
>>
>> Congratulations on your Homer/Atlantis combo. I had a Homer/Appaloosa 
>> combo, with nearly the same setup (and same order of ownership), size and 
>> impressions as as you. I think these two bikes complement each other well.  
>> I 
>> even did the lightening up process. I’m glad I did because it helped both 
>> bikes ride better, yet still different from each other. Love the dynamo 
>> lights and tubeless.  I rode both bikes equally.  You can read about it 
>> here:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/pWpMrkiVUlk/m/eVByOom6CQAJ 
>>  
>>
>> The only thing I changed after the project was that I put the original 
>> choco moose handlebar back on th Appa, as that bar was the perfect bar for 
>> me on that bike. 
>>
>> I’m still in love with my lively riding Homer but sold the Appaloosa to 
>> have room for a Platypus. The decision to sell the Appaloosa rather than 
>> Homer was that I don’t ride off-road or tour, not that I didn’t like it’s 
>> smooth buttery ride. 
>>
>> Btw, bikes can lose a lot of weight for free with lighter saddles, 
>> smaller bags, lighter or no fenders and racks. I have a 1.25 lb vs Nitto 
>> 2.5 lb rack. I changed Flyer for Selle Anatomica. Banana sac vs Carradice 
>> bag. Some items are worth the weight, like your  aforementioned 
>> kickstand—so darn practical. 
>>
>> Roberta
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 12:15:22 AM UTC-4 atreya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Here is pic from my evening ride today :-)
>>> [image: image0.jpeg]
>>>
>>> Cheers ,
>>> Deepak
>>>
>>> On Jul 25, 2022, at 21:14, atreya...@gmail.com  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> I have had my homer for 6 months . After lot of experimenting , 
>>> obsessing qnd tweaking i am almost 99% there ( in the process I have a mini 
>>> nitto shop with almost all variations of handlebars !which I will try to 
>>> find a good home for when I get  to it ) . The more I tweak and better it 
>>> gets,  more I obsesss , funny how that works !
>>>
>>> I love this bike ! It is super comfortable but yet super responsive in 
>>> handling . I am invariably smiling and instantly in a good mood every time 
>>> I ride it even if just for 10 minutes! 
>>>
>>> It feels super nimble and responsive compared to my Atlantis ( which is 
>>> my first love and forever bike for different reasons ) and want to further 
>>> differentiate between the two .So this brings me to my question 
>>>
>>>1. Compared to my Atlantis it weighs just 4 lbs less (28 vs 32 ) . 
>>>How much of this handling difference is due to weight compared geometry 
>>> and 
>>>tubing stiffness ? I am also pretty light weight between 160-165 lbs so 
>>>might be little more sensitive to weight changes on bike . 
>>>2. If it’s weight ? Is it worth to chase some more weight savings ? 
>>>I want to set it up as lightweight go around town for fun type of bike 
>>>while Atlantis would do longer touring/hauling , trails etc. I am 
>>> surprised 
>>>when I see numbers close to 25lb or under . I have no racks or fenders , 
>>> so 
>>>where can those weight saving come from ? I am not willing to sacrifice 
>>>comfort ( pedals and leather saddle ) and definitely not my kick stand 
>>> :-) 
>>>. Below is my current set up 
>>>
>>> Size : 54.5 
>>>
>>> Wheels : pacenti brevet with son28 dynamo and 
>>>
>>> Tires : RH squanomie pass standard (tubeless)
>>>
>>> Shimano hub ( I have realized the use case for dynamo for my riding is 
>>> pretty limited so 

Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Wow thanks for the detailed response Max!
I am still on the fence with  dyno and lights ; along with that , seat post 
(may be Thompson masterpiece )  and cassette I think I can shave off 
another 2lbs without sacrificing on comfort/utility. But still debating 
about it.

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:10:32 PM UTC-7 Max S wrote:

> Well, I made the mistake of purchasing a fish scale and weighing my bikes 
> recently... The lightest I had was ~20 lbs, fixed gear at that, and there I 
> was thinking it was crazy light. But they are all ~ 59 cm frames and 
> threaded steerer forks with tall stems, fattish tires, and no krazy karbon 
> bits (even the pair of carbon wheels I have are super deep and weigh ~1,500 
> g). Guess what – my fastest times up some local "climbs" are on the 
> lightest of my bikes, especially when I am running the aero wheels. No 
> surprises there. The nicest "feeling" bike is my fixed gear – until the 
> week that a dirt road gets re-graded, and then the skinny 30 mm tires make 
> it a bit too... under-bikey. An
>
> Anyhow, I think it's fun to consider what weight savings can be obtained. 
> People have almost always made the mistake of conflating safety with weight 
> or comfort with weight or reliability with weight. If you read Henry Ford's 
> biography, he talks about this quite a bit, and one of the greatest things 
> he accomplished for breaking that conventional trade-off was to use 
> lighter, yet stronger steel alloys. The cars got lighter, they became more 
> reliable, less expensive to operate, etc. Much the same thing happened when 
> people started drawing lightweight steel tubes for bicycles – using 
> heavier-walled gas pipe does nothing to help your bike be more enjoyable, 
> comfortable, or reliable. Same with pneumatic tires – lighter weight, more 
> comfort than solid rubber tires. 
>
> So, let's consider the extra weight carried by some of the "comfort / 
> utility" driven components and decide if it's worth it... Some ballpark 
> numbers, give or take: 
>
> Kickstand – 0.5 lb to take it off – I rarely find kickstands increasing my 
> enjoyment of cycling. 
> Tires – 0.3 lbs for lighter (35 mm) tires – lightweight tires *can* be 
> more comfortable and faster rolling!
> Dyno – 0.6 lb to switch to regular front hub – hey, 3-10 watt savings in 
> drag right there! 
> Lights – 0.5 lb to switch to battery powered LEDs – same brightness, less 
> weight, less bulk, occasional charging, why not? 
> Bars – 0.5 lb to switch to lighter (e.g., straight bar) – some people find 
> non-sweepy bars more comfortable, believe it or not! 
> Saddle – 1 lb to switch to modern plastic / carbon saddle – some modern 
> saddles are remarkably good! 
> Seatpost – 0.25 lb for lighter options – as long as it doesn't brake and 
> puts your saddle in the right position... 
> Cranks – 0.5-1 lb to switch to lighter crank & bb (e.g., SRAM Red) – it 
> just works. 
> Cassette & Derailleur – 0.5-1 lb differential for some combos – lighter 
> bike, now you can pedal bigger gears for those hills! 
> Everything else on a "diet" (brakes, headset, bell, skewers, levers, 
> shifters, etc.) can be futzed with to get another pound. 
>
> So, I think you can get things lighter weight, down to about 24 lbs, with 
> those substitutions, and it wouldn't even cost you any net extra, if you 
> sell the items you substitute – may even come out cash positive. William 
> Lindsey has a thread about making his Legolas sub-20 lbs with conventional 
> components. The only real difference from his build and what the above 
> substitutions would produce is that the Legolas frame & fork & stem combo 
> would shave ~2-3 lbs more of yours. 
>
> But just having lighter and skinnier tires will make it feel a lot 
> sprightlier. 
>
> - Max "going fast is also fun!" in A2
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:41:38 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> I often wonder how much of my lightening up project (I only did what was 
>> practical) that brought me so much more joy in riding was that I got better 
>> rims and tires, so the bike just rode better.  Many people in my original 
>> thread pointed that out.  I'm still glad I did the full project, but none 
>> of us here are weight weenies--we ride Rivs, happily, after all.  
>>
>> Roberta
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:49:06 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> Very nice!  I had the same thing happen with the Nitto parts bin :) 
>>>
>>> Weight plays a surprisingly small part of the experience of riding a 
>>> lighter bike. Most of the benefit of the lighter tubing is how it performs 
>>> due to the thinner wall thickness (resulting in a "snappy" feel from light 
>>> flexing), and the geometry differences between the two. The few ounces 
>>> saved in the process are quite secondary. 
>>>
>>> That said, the same logic tends to apply to other parts - even though 
>>> the mass difference might not do a lot by itself, it can result in a 
>>> quicker action (ie a derailleur with

Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Bingo! Well said. I think what I am chasing is the handling or response on 
my homer. The actual weight I don't really care much.

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 2:49:06 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Very nice!  I had the same thing happen with the Nitto parts bin :) 
>
> Weight plays a surprisingly small part of the experience of riding a 
> lighter bike. Most of the benefit of the lighter tubing is how it performs 
> due to the thinner wall thickness (resulting in a "snappy" feel from light 
> flexing), and the geometry differences between the two. The few ounces 
> saved in the process are quite secondary. 
>
> That said, the same logic tends to apply to other parts - even though the 
> mass difference might not do a lot by itself, it can result in a quicker 
> action (ie a derailleur with less inertia to its moving parts) or better 
> feel (ie less rotating mass in your wheels, reducing the gyroscopic effects 
> fighting your steering input) 
>
> On Tuesday, 26 July 2022 at 04:45:30 UTC-7 Steve Cole wrote:
>
>> Deepak,
>> What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis (MIT). 
>>  I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds figures you 
>> have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers.  They had 
>> different geometry and used different tubes that may explain the gap 
>> between your 28# and the 25# yo've seen.  
>>
>> Second, I often think about replying to questions about how one might cut 
>> the weight of their bike but have never replied.  I strongly believe how 
>> one builds their bike, the components they select, should reflect its 
>> intended primary use.  If going as fast as you can (e.g., racing) is 
>> paramount, cutting weight without sacrificing strength, handling or safety 
>> is sensible.  On the other hand, as is the case for me, if you ride for 
>> exercise, fun and health, I can't think of a good reason to look for ways 
>> to pare the bike's weight.  How much bike/rider weight you push around, as 
>> Grant Peterson has noted, is mostly a reflection of the rider's weight even 
>> in your case. In addition, pushing around a  25# bike is a weight savings 
>> to you of only about 1.5% of total (bike+rider) weight.  While this is 
>> pretty negligible, the added weight should be better for health, strength, 
>> stamina, etc.  Not much better, I admit, but this thinking has stopped me 
>> from focusing on weight and not the joy of riding.
>>
>> I don't know whether this is any help. I hope so.
>> Steve Cole
>> Arlington, Virginia
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:19:01 AM UTC-4 brendonoid wrote:
>>
>>> Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
>>> just said.
>>> Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose 
>>> weight on are all utility comfort things. 
>>> The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
>>> opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
>>> weight'.
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Thanks Steve.  I really don't care about speed , I think the speed 
difference between my homer and atlantis at my level of fitness is probably 
0.5 miles / hr :P . I like the nimble handling of homer and super stable 
/smooth feeling of atlantis  (depending on my mood )

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 4:45:30 AM UTC-7 Steve Cole wrote:

> Deepak,
> What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis (MIT). 
>  I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds figures you 
> have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers.  They had 
> different geometry and used different tubes that may explain the gap 
> between your 28# and the 25# yo've seen.  
>
> Second, I often think about replying to questions about how one might cut 
> the weight of their bike but have never replied.  I strongly believe how 
> one builds their bike, the components they select, should reflect its 
> intended primary use.  If going as fast as you can (e.g., racing) is 
> paramount, cutting weight without sacrificing strength, handling or safety 
> is sensible.  On the other hand, as is the case for me, if you ride for 
> exercise, fun and health, I can't think of a good reason to look for ways 
> to pare the bike's weight.  How much bike/rider weight you push around, as 
> Grant Peterson has noted, is mostly a reflection of the rider's weight even 
> in your case. In addition, pushing around a  25# bike is a weight savings 
> to you of only about 1.5% of total (bike+rider) weight.  While this is 
> pretty negligible, the added weight should be better for health, strength, 
> stamina, etc.  Not much better, I admit, but this thinking has stopped me 
> from focusing on weight and not the joy of riding.
>
> I don't know whether this is any help. I hope so.
> Steve Cole
> Arlington, Virginia
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:19:01 AM UTC-4 brendonoid wrote:
>
>> Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
>> just said.
>> Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose weight 
>> on are all utility comfort things. 
>> The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
>> opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
>> weight'.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[Max S]

Well, I made the mistake of purchasing a fish scale and weighing my bikes 
recently... The lightest I had was ~20 lbs, fixed gear at that, and there I 
was thinking it was crazy light. But they are all ~ 59 cm frames and 
threaded steerer forks with tall stems, fattish tires, and no krazy karbon 
bits (even the pair of carbon wheels I have are super deep and weigh ~1,500 
g). Guess what – my fastest times up some local "climbs" are on the 
lightest of my bikes, especially when I am running the aero wheels. No 
surprises there. The nicest "feeling" bike is my fixed gear – until the 
week that a dirt road gets re-graded, and then the skinny 30 mm tires make 
it a bit too... under-bikey. An

Anyhow, I think it's fun to consider what weight savings can be obtained. 
People have almost always made the mistake of conflating safety with weight 
or comfort with weight or reliability with weight. If you read Henry Ford's 
biography, he talks about this quite a bit, and one of the greatest things 
he accomplished for breaking that conventional trade-off was to use 
lighter, yet stronger steel alloys. The cars got lighter, they became more 
reliable, less expensive to operate, etc. Much the same thing happened when 
people started drawing lightweight steel tubes for bicycles – using 
heavier-walled gas pipe does nothing to help your bike be more enjoyable, 
comfortable, or reliable. Same with pneumatic tires – lighter weight, more 
comfort than solid rubber tires. 

So, let's consider the extra weight carried by some of the "comfort / 
utility" driven components and decide if it's worth it... Some ballpark 
numbers, give or take: 

Kickstand – 0.5 lb to take it off – I rarely find kickstands increasing my 
enjoyment of cycling. 
Tires – 0.3 lbs for lighter (35 mm) tires – lightweight tires *can* be more 
comfortable and faster rolling!
Dyno – 0.6 lb to switch to regular front hub – hey, 3-10 watt savings in 
drag right there! 
Lights – 0.5 lb to switch to battery powered LEDs – same brightness, less 
weight, less bulk, occasional charging, why not? 
Bars – 0.5 lb to switch to lighter (e.g., straight bar) – some people find 
non-sweepy bars more comfortable, believe it or not! 
Saddle – 1 lb to switch to modern plastic / carbon saddle – some modern 
saddles are remarkably good! 
Seatpost – 0.25 lb for lighter options – as long as it doesn't brake and 
puts your saddle in the right position... 
Cranks – 0.5-1 lb to switch to lighter crank & bb (e.g., SRAM Red) – it 
just works. 
Cassette & Derailleur – 0.5-1 lb differential for some combos – lighter 
bike, now you can pedal bigger gears for those hills! 
Everything else on a "diet" (brakes, headset, bell, skewers, levers, 
shifters, etc.) can be futzed with to get another pound. 

So, I think you can get things lighter weight, down to about 24 lbs, with 
those substitutions, and it wouldn't even cost you any net extra, if you 
sell the items you substitute – may even come out cash positive. William 
Lindsey has a thread about making his Legolas sub-20 lbs with conventional 
components. The only real difference from his build and what the above 
substitutions would produce is that the Legolas frame & fork & stem combo 
would shave ~2-3 lbs more of yours. 

But just having lighter and skinnier tires will make it feel a lot 
sprightlier. 

- Max "going fast is also fun!" in A2

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:41:38 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:

> Jason,
>
> I often wonder how much of my lightening up project (I only did what was 
> practical) that brought me so much more joy in riding was that I got better 
> rims and tires, so the bike just rode better.  Many people in my original 
> thread pointed that out.  I'm still glad I did the full project, but none 
> of us here are weight weenies--we ride Rivs, happily, after all.  
>
> Roberta
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:49:06 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Very nice!  I had the same thing happen with the Nitto parts bin :) 
>>
>> Weight plays a surprisingly small part of the experience of riding a 
>> lighter bike. Most of the benefit of the lighter tubing is how it performs 
>> due to the thinner wall thickness (resulting in a "snappy" feel from light 
>> flexing), and the geometry differences between the two. The few ounces 
>> saved in the process are quite secondary. 
>>
>> That said, the same logic tends to apply to other parts - even though the 
>> mass difference might not do a lot by itself, it can result in a quicker 
>> action (ie a derailleur with less inertia to its moving parts) or better 
>> feel (ie less rotating mass in your wheels, reducing the gyroscopic effects 
>> fighting your steering input) 
>>
>> On Tuesday, 26 July 2022 at 04:45:30 UTC-7 Steve Cole wrote:
>>
>>> Deepak,
>>> What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis 
>>> (MIT).  I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds 
>>> figures you have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers. 
>>>

Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Thanks Brendonoid. I agree! Brooks saddle, brass bell and  kickstands makes 
the bike so much more fun and useful.  Though I am not using the dyno nmuch 
I think I will leave it alone. It always there when I need it

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 2:19:01 AM UTC-7 brendonoid wrote:

> Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
> just said.
> Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose weight 
> on are all utility comfort things. 
> The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
> opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
> weight'.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

Thanks Roberta. That was a very interesting read. How convinent are those 
kick stands? 

PS: I have choco moose on my Atlantis. I love them! It introduced me to 
chocos and I think they are my # favorites right now. But I am thinking of 
swapping to regular chocos as they dont play well with my stem bag. 


On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:55:04 AM UTC-7 Roberta wrote:

> Deepak,
>
> Congratulations on your Homer/Atlantis combo. I had a Homer/Appaloosa 
> combo, with nearly the same setup (and same order of ownership), size and 
> impressions as as you. I think these two bikes complement each other well.  I 
> even did the lightening up process. I’m glad I did because it helped both 
> bikes ride better, yet still different from each other. Love the dynamo 
> lights and tubeless.  I rode both bikes equally.  You can read about it 
> here:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/pWpMrkiVUlk/m/eVByOom6CQAJ 
>  
>
> The only thing I changed after the project was that I put the original 
> choco moose handlebar back on th Appa, as that bar was the perfect bar for 
> me on that bike. 
>
> I’m still in love with my lively riding Homer but sold the Appaloosa to 
> have room for a Platypus. The decision to sell the Appaloosa rather than 
> Homer was that I don’t ride off-road or tour, not that I didn’t like it’s 
> smooth buttery ride. 
>
> Btw, bikes can lose a lot of weight for free with lighter saddles, smaller 
> bags, lighter or no fenders and racks. I have a 1.25 lb vs Nitto 2.5 lb 
> rack. I changed Flyer for Selle Anatomica. Banana sac vs Carradice bag. 
> Some items are worth the weight, like your  aforementioned kickstand—so 
> darn practical. 
>
> Roberta
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 12:15:22 AM UTC-4 atreya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Here is pic from my evening ride today :-)
>> [image: image0.jpeg]
>>
>> Cheers ,
>> Deepak
>>
>> On Jul 25, 2022, at 21:14, atreya...@gmail.com  
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> I have had my homer for 6 months . After lot of experimenting , obsessing 
>> qnd tweaking i am almost 99% there ( in the process I have a mini nitto 
>> shop with almost all variations of handlebars !which I will try to find a 
>> good home for when I get  to it ) . The more I tweak and better it 
>> gets,  more I obsesss , funny how that works !
>>
>> I love this bike ! It is super comfortable but yet super responsive in 
>> handling . I am invariably smiling and instantly in a good mood every time 
>> I ride it even if just for 10 minutes! 
>>
>> It feels super nimble and responsive compared to my Atlantis ( which is 
>> my first love and forever bike for different reasons ) and want to further 
>> differentiate between the two .So this brings me to my question 
>>
>>1. Compared to my Atlantis it weighs just 4 lbs less (28 vs 32 ) . 
>>How much of this handling difference is due to weight compared geometry 
>> and 
>>tubing stiffness ? I am also pretty light weight between 160-165 lbs so 
>>might be little more sensitive to weight changes on bike . 
>>2. If it’s weight ? Is it worth to chase some more weight savings ? I 
>>want to set it up as lightweight go around town for fun type of bike 
>> while 
>>Atlantis would do longer touring/hauling , trails etc. I am surprised 
>> when 
>>I see numbers close to 25lb or under . I have no racks or fenders , so 
>>where can those weight saving come from ? I am not willing to sacrifice 
>>comfort ( pedals and leather saddle ) and definitely not my kick stand 
>> :-) 
>>. Below is my current set up 
>>
>> Size : 54.5 
>>
>> Wheels : pacenti brevet with son28 dynamo and 
>>
>> Tires : RH squanomie pass standard (tubeless)
>>
>> Shimano hub ( I have realized the use case for dynamo for my riding is 
>> pretty limited so wouldn’t mind losing it ) .
>>
>> Crank : silver cranks 42-28 
>>
>> Brake set up : Paul racers and canti levers
>>
>> Cock pit : albatross bar , nitto talux stem .
>>
>>
>> Appreciate your thoughts !
>>
>>  
>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[Roberta]

Jason,

I often wonder how much of my lightening up project (I only did what was 
practical) that brought me so much more joy in riding was that I got better 
rims and tires, so the bike just rode better.  Many people in my original 
thread pointed that out.  I'm still glad I did the full project, but none 
of us here are weight weenies--we ride Rivs, happily, after all.  

Roberta

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:49:06 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Very nice!  I had the same thing happen with the Nitto parts bin :) 
>
> Weight plays a surprisingly small part of the experience of riding a 
> lighter bike. Most of the benefit of the lighter tubing is how it performs 
> due to the thinner wall thickness (resulting in a "snappy" feel from light 
> flexing), and the geometry differences between the two. The few ounces 
> saved in the process are quite secondary. 
>
> That said, the same logic tends to apply to other parts - even though the 
> mass difference might not do a lot by itself, it can result in a quicker 
> action (ie a derailleur with less inertia to its moving parts) or better 
> feel (ie less rotating mass in your wheels, reducing the gyroscopic effects 
> fighting your steering input) 
>
> On Tuesday, 26 July 2022 at 04:45:30 UTC-7 Steve Cole wrote:
>
>> Deepak,
>> What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis (MIT). 
>>  I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds figures you 
>> have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers.  They had 
>> different geometry and used different tubes that may explain the gap 
>> between your 28# and the 25# yo've seen.  
>>
>> Second, I often think about replying to questions about how one might cut 
>> the weight of their bike but have never replied.  I strongly believe how 
>> one builds their bike, the components they select, should reflect its 
>> intended primary use.  If going as fast as you can (e.g., racing) is 
>> paramount, cutting weight without sacrificing strength, handling or safety 
>> is sensible.  On the other hand, as is the case for me, if you ride for 
>> exercise, fun and health, I can't think of a good reason to look for ways 
>> to pare the bike's weight.  How much bike/rider weight you push around, as 
>> Grant Peterson has noted, is mostly a reflection of the rider's weight even 
>> in your case. In addition, pushing around a  25# bike is a weight savings 
>> to you of only about 1.5% of total (bike+rider) weight.  While this is 
>> pretty negligible, the added weight should be better for health, strength, 
>> stamina, etc.  Not much better, I admit, but this thinking has stopped me 
>> from focusing on weight and not the joy of riding.
>>
>> I don't know whether this is any help. I hope so.
>> Steve Cole
>> Arlington, Virginia
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:19:01 AM UTC-4 brendonoid wrote:
>>
>>> Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
>>> just said.
>>> Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose 
>>> weight on are all utility comfort things. 
>>> The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
>>> opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
>>> weight'.
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[Jason Fuller]

Very nice!  I had the same thing happen with the Nitto parts bin :) 

Weight plays a surprisingly small part of the experience of riding a 
lighter bike. Most of the benefit of the lighter tubing is how it performs 
due to the thinner wall thickness (resulting in a "snappy" feel from light 
flexing), and the geometry differences between the two. The few ounces 
saved in the process are quite secondary. 

That said, the same logic tends to apply to other parts - even though the 
mass difference might not do a lot by itself, it can result in a quicker 
action (ie a derailleur with less inertia to its moving parts) or better 
feel (ie less rotating mass in your wheels, reducing the gyroscopic effects 
fighting your steering input) 

On Tuesday, 26 July 2022 at 04:45:30 UTC-7 Steve Cole wrote:

> Deepak,
> What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis (MIT). 
>  I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds figures you 
> have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers.  They had 
> different geometry and used different tubes that may explain the gap 
> between your 28# and the 25# yo've seen.  
>
> Second, I often think about replying to questions about how one might cut 
> the weight of their bike but have never replied.  I strongly believe how 
> one builds their bike, the components they select, should reflect its 
> intended primary use.  If going as fast as you can (e.g., racing) is 
> paramount, cutting weight without sacrificing strength, handling or safety 
> is sensible.  On the other hand, as is the case for me, if you ride for 
> exercise, fun and health, I can't think of a good reason to look for ways 
> to pare the bike's weight.  How much bike/rider weight you push around, as 
> Grant Peterson has noted, is mostly a reflection of the rider's weight even 
> in your case. In addition, pushing around a  25# bike is a weight savings 
> to you of only about 1.5% of total (bike+rider) weight.  While this is 
> pretty negligible, the added weight should be better for health, strength, 
> stamina, etc.  Not much better, I admit, but this thinking has stopped me 
> from focusing on weight and not the joy of riding.
>
> I don't know whether this is any help. I hope so.
> Steve Cole
> Arlington, Virginia
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:19:01 AM UTC-4 brendonoid wrote:
>
>> Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
>> just said.
>> Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose weight 
>> on are all utility comfort things. 
>> The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
>> opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
>> weight'.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[Steve Cole]

Deepak,
What a wonderful ride.  I have both a Homer (Toyo) and an Atlantis (MIT). 
 I love them both.  First, I wonder whether the under-25 pounds figures you 
have seen are for Toyo (1st gen) or Waterford (2nd gen) Homers.  They had 
different geometry and used different tubes that may explain the gap 
between your 28# and the 25# yo've seen.  

Second, I often think about replying to questions about how one might cut 
the weight of their bike but have never replied.  I strongly believe how 
one builds their bike, the components they select, should reflect its 
intended primary use.  If going as fast as you can (e.g., racing) is 
paramount, cutting weight without sacrificing strength, handling or safety 
is sensible.  On the other hand, as is the case for me, if you ride for 
exercise, fun and health, I can't think of a good reason to look for ways 
to pare the bike's weight.  How much bike/rider weight you push around, as 
Grant Peterson has noted, is mostly a reflection of the rider's weight even 
in your case. In addition, pushing around a  25# bike is a weight savings 
to you of only about 1.5% of total (bike+rider) weight.  While this is 
pretty negligible, the added weight should be better for health, strength, 
stamina, etc.  Not much better, I admit, but this thinking has stopped me 
from focusing on weight and not the joy of riding.

I don't know whether this is any help. I hope so.
Steve Cole
Arlington, Virginia

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 5:19:01 AM UTC-4 brendonoid wrote:

> Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
> just said.
> Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose weight 
> on are all utility comfort things. 
> The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
> opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
> weight'.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[brendonoid]

Your Homer looks perfect and I would second everything that Roberta has 
just said.
Looking at your build in that photo the only things you could lose weight 
on are all utility comfort things. 
The saddle, Dyno, kickstand and brass bell are all weight saving 
opportunities but also things that I personally would consider 'worth the 
weight'.

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Re: [RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[Roberta]

Deepak,

Congratulations on your Homer/Atlantis combo. I had a Homer/Appaloosa 
combo, with nearly the same setup (and same order of ownership), size and 
impressions as as you. I think these two bikes complement each other well.  I 
even did the lightening up process. I’m glad I did because it helped both 
bikes ride better, yet still different from each other. Love the dynamo 
lights and tubeless.  I rode both bikes equally.  You can read about it 
here:

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/pWpMrkiVUlk/m/eVByOom6CQAJ  

The only thing I changed after the project was that I put the original 
choco moose handlebar back on th Appa, as that bar was the perfect bar for 
me on that bike. 

I’m still in love with my lively riding Homer but sold the Appaloosa to 
have room for a Platypus. The decision to sell the Appaloosa rather than 
Homer was that I don’t ride off-road or tour, not that I didn’t like it’s 
smooth buttery ride. 

Btw, bikes can lose a lot of weight for free with lighter saddles, smaller 
bags, lighter or no fenders and racks. I have a 1.25 lb vs Nitto 2.5 lb 
rack. I changed Flyer for Selle Anatomica. Banana sac vs Carradice bag. 
Some items are worth the weight, like your  aforementioned kickstand—so 
darn practical. 

Roberta

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 12:15:22 AM UTC-4 atreya...@gmail.com wrote:

> Here is pic from my evening ride today :-)
> [image: image0.jpeg]
>
> Cheers ,
> Deepak
>
> On Jul 25, 2022, at 21:14, atreya...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I have had my homer for 6 months . After lot of experimenting , obsessing 
> qnd tweaking i am almost 99% there ( in the process I have a mini nitto 
> shop with almost all variations of handlebars !which I will try to find a 
> good home for when I get  to it ) . The more I tweak and better it 
> gets,  more I obsesss , funny how that works !
>
> I love this bike ! It is super comfortable but yet super responsive in 
> handling . I am invariably smiling and instantly in a good mood every time 
> I ride it even if just for 10 minutes! 
>
> It feels super nimble and responsive compared to my Atlantis ( which is my 
> first love and forever bike for different reasons ) and want to further 
> differentiate between the two .So this brings me to my question 
>
>1. Compared to my Atlantis it weighs just 4 lbs less (28 vs 32 ) . How 
>much of this handling difference is due to weight compared geometry and 
>tubing stiffness ? I am also pretty light weight between 160-165 lbs so 
>might be little more sensitive to weight changes on bike . 
>2. If it’s weight ? Is it worth to chase some more weight savings ? I 
>want to set it up as lightweight go around town for fun type of bike while 
>Atlantis would do longer touring/hauling , trails etc. I am surprised when 
>I see numbers close to 25lb or under . I have no racks or fenders , so 
>where can those weight saving come from ? I am not willing to sacrifice 
>comfort ( pedals and leather saddle ) and definitely not my kick stand :-) 
>. Below is my current set up 
>
> Size : 54.5 
>
> Wheels : pacenti brevet with son28 dynamo and 
>
> Tires : RH squanomie pass standard (tubeless)
>
> Shimano hub ( I have realized the use case for dynamo for my riding is 
> pretty limited so wouldn’t mind losing it ) .
>
> Crank : silver cranks 42-28 
>
> Brake set up : Paul racers and canti levers
>
> Cock pit : albatross bar , nitto talux stem .
>
>
> Appreciate your thoughts !
>
>  
>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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[RBW] Homer 6 months review and questions

[atreya...@gmail.com]

I have had my homer for 6 months . After lot of experimenting , obsessing 
qnd tweaking i am almost 99% there ( in the process I have a mini nitto 
shop with almost all variations of handlebars !which I will try to find a 
good home for when I get  to it ) . The more I tweak and better it 
gets,  more I obsesss , funny how that works !

I love this bike ! It is super comfortable but yet super responsive in 
handling . I am invariably smiling and instantly in a good mood every time 
I ride it even if just for 10 minutes! 

It feels super nimble and responsive compared to my Atlantis ( which is my 
first love and forever bike for different reasons ) and want to further 
differentiate between the two .So this brings me to my question 

   1. Compared to my Atlantis it weighs just 4 lbs less (28 vs 32 ) . How 
   much of this handling difference is due to weight compared geometry and 
   tubing stiffness ? I am also pretty light weight between 160-165 lbs so 
   might be little more sensitive to weight changes on bike . 
   2. If it’s weight ? Is it worth to chase some more weight savings ? I 
   want to set it up as lightweight go around town for fun type of bike while 
   Atlantis would do longer touring/hauling , trails etc. I am surprised when 
   I see numbers close to 25lb or under . I have no racks or fenders , so 
   where can those weight saving come from ? I am not willing to sacrifice 
   comfort ( pedals and leather saddle ) and definitely not my kick stand :-) 
   . Below is my current set up 

Size : 54.5 

Wheels : pacenti brevet with son28 dynamo and 

Tires : RH squanomie pass standard (tubeless)

Shimano hub ( I have realized the use case for dynamo for my riding is 
pretty limited so wouldn’t mind losing it ) .

Crank : silver cranks 42-28 

Brake set up : Paul racers and canti levers

Cock pit : albatross bar , nitto talux stem .


Appreciate your thoughts !

 

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